What I expected from 1.6 vs. What I got

WarrioroftheWind_ESO · February 2015

I didn't play WoW from day of launch, but I'm fairly certain people had to run UBRS a LOOOOOOOOOONG time before MC, BWL, and TAQ became available. There's content already there for you to find. If you focus on one facet out of dozens you miss alot that's already there. I've had to listen to people whine about "well I only care about PVP I don't care about PVE I'm gonna quit if PVP doesn't improve". Well don't let the door hit you on the way out. Meantime there's others who have been focusing almost exclusively on PVP until recently taking a break and looking around and finding hey, there's stuff out there I didn't know was there. 1.6 is the foundation for a LOT more than just what it's shipping with. You can't build a condo without a frame, but if you're patient enough you'll be in a pretty swanky setup.

Kragorn · February 2015

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

I didn't play WoW from day of launch, but I'm fairly certain people had to run UBRS a LOOOOOOOOOONG time before MC, BWL, and TAQ became available..

Some dates:

Patch 1.1.0 7 November 2004
Initial US Release Version for World of Warcraft

Patch 1.6: Assault on Blackwing Lair
Release date (US) Version Interface .toc Highlights & notes
Patch 1.6.0 12 July 2005

8 months, though it took probably at least 2 or 3 to gear up for it even if it had existed at launch. Of course, IIRC there was a long 'attunement' needed before you could actually get into it even once it had appeared.

Seraphyel · February 2015

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

1.5 hit live servers in early November without any relevant content. The last relevant content was added mid September, when they opened up the last part of Craglorn.

So, 1.6 doesn't give us ANY content - so we got nothing in 6 months (if 1.6 hits live servers in February) and new content seems to be another 6 months away (2-3 months after console launch).

For those of us who don't enjoy endlessly running group-or-die content there's been nothing new AT ALL since release, stop complaining about a short gap in your phat lewt content arrival.

How do you know that I am not "your" type of player?

It's just about missing content at all, not what specific kind of content is missing. Even with Craglorn the variety of content is tiny.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

I didn't play WoW from day of launch, but I'm fairly certain people had to run UBRS a LOOOOOOOOOONG time before MC, BWL, and TAQ became available...

You are really comparing WoW Anno 2004 with ESO Anno 2014? Are you even serious?

I don't compare my PC Anno 2004 with my PC Anno 2014 because the comparison is just hilarious.

But to get the comparison finally right:

- WoW took you months to level up to 60.
- Molten Core & Onyxias Lair where launch raids that needed an attunement that was difficult to manage.
- There were 24 instances from launch on, 3 were added later.
- In March they added 2 world bosses
- In July (8 months after release) they launched Black Wing Lair, the 3rd 40-player raid
- In September (10 months after release) they launched Zul'Gurub, a 20-player raid
- In October, they brought up 4 new world bosses (Nightmare dragons) and a totally revamped endgame zone with open PvP (Silithus)

All of the above has been there by launch or within the first ~ 12 months of the game.

So please stop taking WoW for a comparison. Zenimax brought up 3 trials (not even comparable to one of the above raids), 1 nice dungeon (Dragonstar) and a few revamped HM dungeons and the open zone - in comparison with the 10 year old WoW, that's literally nothing.

In January, 13 months after launch, they brought up the AQ-complex, a huge 20-player and a huge 40-player raid. You want more?

Look: http://www.wowwiki.com/Patches/1.x

_________

Zenimax really has to release a bunch of content QUICKLY. If they don't, the PC playerbase will shrink. I really want them to bring up new content, because I like the game, but quality of life changes don't give you relevant content at all.

Kragorn · February 2015

Seraphyel wrote: »

You are really comparing WoW Anno 2004 with ESO Anno 2014? Are you even serious?

I don't compare my PC Anno 2004 with my PC Anno 2014 because the comparison is just hilarious.

Because the realities of software development cycles is different now from back then?

Fact is Blizzard had far more cash relative to costs back then that ZOS have now and they still took a longer time to come out with a sizeable chunk of content than has elapsed so far.

Seraphyel · February 2015

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

Fact is Blizzard had far more cash relative to costs back then that ZOS have now and they still took a longer time to come out with a sizeable chunk of content than has elapsed so far.

No, that's not a fact, that's a lie. Look at my extended post and you'll see it. WoW offered more content at launch than ESO after 1 year - and Blizzard pumped out an enormous amount of content within the first year, so WoW is totally the winner when it comes to this comparison.

bowmanz607 · February 2015

then go play WoW. Did WoW also change the foundation of their game 7 months in?

Seraphyel · February 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

then go play WoW. Did WoW also change the foundation of their game 7 months in?

lol? I didn't bring up the comparison, I just clarified it.

And no, it didn't, because it's basic gameplay hasn't been so unlikeable. But as I said, revamping the foundation of the game (=Vet system) is no excuse for missing content.

Shuichi · February 2015

Half of what you expected wasn't even in ZoS's plans for the release. Think it's time for this community to learn to manage their expectations. There are huge changes coming to the game now that a lot of us are thankful for.

Kragorn · February 2015

Shuichi wrote: »

There are huge changes coming to the game now that a lot of us are thankful for.

Changes such as .. what, exactly?

Justice?

A side-issue for many, and even if it's something that interests you hugely right now, how long before the novelty wears off?

What other 'huge changes' have ZOS even hinted at, let alone made a firm commitment to deliver .. and please, always remember they lied about "tracking XP" when they were desperate to keep players from upping and going elsewhere the moment they [the playhers] realised the next 6 months was largely marking time and going nowhere .. so nothing they say now can be 100% relied upon.

bowmanz607 · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

Shuichi wrote: »

There are huge changes coming to the game now that a lot of us are thankful for.

Changes such as .. what, exactly?

Justice?

A side-issue for many, and even if it's something that interests you hugely right now, how long before the novelty wears off?

What other 'huge changes' have ZOS even hinted at, let alone made a firm commitment to deliver .. and please, always remember they lied about "tracking XP" when they were desperate to keep players from upping and going elsewhere the moment they [the playhers] realised the next 6 months was largely marking time and going nowhere .. so nothing they say now can be 100% relied upon.

LOL! I love how everyones go to is that they lied about tracking XP. GET OVER IT! perhaps it turned out to be harder than they thought and too inconsistent. You dont know. Sage also said that some people would be happy about the champ points they get and some unhappy. SOunds about right. Seems like they didnt even know what they were saying when they said it and had not worked out the particulars to it.
As far as other content:
-the rest of justice system
-imperial city
-3 new zones (i cant remember the names of but im sure people know what i am refering to)
-spell crafting
-darkbrotherhood
-theives guild
-gear
-jewlery crafting
-o and with the brotherhood and theives likely comes skill lines for each.
and thats just what we know about.

Kragorn · February 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

Shuichi wrote: »

There are huge changes coming to the game now that a lot of us are thankful for.

Changes such as .. what, exactly?

Justice?

A side-issue for many, and even if it's something that interests you hugely right now, how long before the novelty wears off?

What other 'huge changes' have ZOS even hinted at, let alone made a firm commitment to deliver .. and please, always remember they lied about "tracking XP" when they were desperate to keep players from upping and going elsewhere the moment they [the playhers] realised the next 6 months was largely marking time and going nowhere .. so nothing they say now can be 100% relied upon.

LOL! I love how everyones go to is that they lied about tracking XP. GET OVER IT! perhaps it turned out to be harder than they thought and too inconsistent. You dont know. Sage also said that some people would be happy about the champ points they get and some unhappy. SOunds about right. Seems like they didnt even know what they were saying when they said it and had not worked out the particulars to it.
As far as other content:
-the rest of justice system
-imperial city
-3 new zones (i cant remember the names of but im sure people know what i am refering to)
-spell crafting
-darkbrotherhood
-theives guild
-gear
-jewlery crafting
-o and with the brotherhood and theives likely comes skill lines for each.
and thats just what we know about.

No, that's what we've been TOLD about.

We were TOLD about IC around 4-5 months ago when it was stated it was nearly ready for release, now not even being talked about.

We've been TOLD about Orsinium and Wrathgar, now not even on the radar.

etc.

We've been TOLD about most of those things up to 9 months ago, NONE have appeared and right now ZOS haven't indicated a release date for a SINGLE ONE.

We'll probably get Justice part 2 to pander to the PVPers crying about the lack of world PVP, beyond that believe what you want, ZOS' history so far indicates little of that will appear this year, if at all .. and I notice you didn't mention Spellcrafting, we were told about THAT mid-last year as well, now even ZOS has admitted they've stopped working onit and have no plans ATM to re-start it.,

Be prepared for major disappointments, believing ZOS' leads to those quite often.

bowmanz607 · February 2015

Kinda hard to release new content when you dont know how the foundation of your game is going to work. Have to focus on 1.6 before rolling out the new stuff. and of course they stopped working on the spellcrafting cause you cant work on everything at once. Not to mention how can you work on spell crafting when your working on re balancing the game. That doesn't even make sense. and ya they told us what they were working on 9 months ago. did you just expect them to spit it all out. There are only so many hands working on the damn thing. How can you give a release date for something when you dont know how it will work within the new system. Thats the problem with people, they have no patience. in a world where everything is available at your fingertips people get so anxious when things are not readily available to them. I have been playing this game since beta and have loved every moment of it.

Seraphyel · February 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

As far as other content:
-the rest of justice system
-imperial city
-3 new zones (i cant remember the names of but im sure people know what i am refering to)
-spell crafting
-darkbrotherhood
-theives guild
-gear
-jewlery crafting
-o and with the brotherhood and theives likely comes skill lines for each.
and thats just what we know about.

Yeah, where is all of that?

We didn't hear or saw anything new from Imperial City, Murkmire or Wrothgar since Quakecon last year.

And the rest... funny. All of that was just MENTIONED. They said they are working on it. Spellcrafting is for sure more than a year away. Thieves Guild & Dark Brotherhood weren't even mentioned in the last months.

As a developer you can say many things. They could say right now they are working on 20 trials, 20 dungeons, 5 pvp maps and 10 zones and when it's about time just announce that all of that was abandoned.

Elsonso · February 2015

MrGhosty wrote: »

It might help to classify the broad term "content" into two categories, quality of life and expansion.

I just wanted to quote this for truth. Purists might think only vast swaths of new ground upon which to tread is the only "Content", and while that is important, it is a limited definition of the word.

MrGhosty wrote: »

Looking at it from a strictly game design perspective, it is never a good idea to let your game get to a point where people can walk away from it to play something else, in most cases once they make a new game connection they'll opt to stick with that. The long drought of new content is going to cause people to wander away and many may not opt to come back which helps no one. Of course maybe that's the goal, there is plenty there for new players to keep them going and they'd just quite like us long timers to kindly bugger off so there isn't anyone to remind them they mishandled some things. Only time will tell I suppose.

A lot of people think that ZeniBeth decided to do a Premium B2P because they were suffering for subscriptions. Others believe that it was all due to Consoles and Microsoft. While there is merit to these ideas, I am not ruling out an additional benefit.

I think the drought mentioned by MrGhosty is a reason behind choosing to switch to B2P now. It is an effort to stem the departure of players during the drought by removing the justification of a subscription from the equation.

ZOS is not large enough to do 2 new client platforms and pay attention to everything else at the same time. They need to take the next 6 months and really put their attention, every department and every skill, towards console release. Update 6 is the line in the sand for them and provides the basis for whatever work they need to do on console release.

ZOS will turn attention back to the whole game later this year, after the console crunch and subsequent patches have been released. When they do, they want there to be people playing the PC/Mac game. B2P will help to make that happen, and it will also pave the way for players to return once new Content has been introduced to the game.

eventide03b14a_ESO · February 2015

Seraphyel wrote: »

No, content hasn't got a much broader scope.

Content = something to do in a new / different zone. New effects, new armory and new animations offer you nothing new when it comes to playable stuff, it's just for your eye.

I know that the things coming in 1.6 are important and I think it's a monster patch, but the lack of content is still existing and it gets worse. That's the issue here.

1.5 offered us no content, 1.6 offers us no content and 1.7 is half year away - THAT is the issue, not the things they bring up with 1.6.

Murkmire - where is it?
Imperial City - where is it?
Wrothgar - where is it?

They showed us all these things on Quakecon in July - 7 months ago. And they just brought up the rest of Craglorn and won't come up with anything they showed us within 1 year?

Again, I think 1.6 is highly needed and should have been here at launch, but it won't cure the open wounds when it comes to the incredible lack of content.

Not to mention the only thing really substantial aside from the store is the justice system. Are people honestly pleased with justice system? I personally got bored with it real quick.

eventide03b14a_ESO · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

You are really comparing WoW Anno 2004 with ESO Anno 2014? Are you even serious?

I don't compare my PC Anno 2004 with my PC Anno 2014 because the comparison is just hilarious.

Because the realities of software development cycles is different now from back then?

Fact is Blizzard had far more cash relative to costs back then that ZOS have now and they still took a longer time to come out with a sizeable chunk of content than has elapsed so far.

What are you basing that on? You have no idea what ZOS budget is. That's not public information. I severely doubt you know what Blizzard's budget was back in 2004 either. You can't just make stuff up because you can't find actual data to support your argument.

eventide03b14a_ESO · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

Shuichi wrote: »

There are huge changes coming to the game now that a lot of us are thankful for.

Changes such as .. what, exactly?

Justice?

A side-issue for many, and even if it's something that interests you hugely right now, how long before the novelty wears off?

What other 'huge changes' have ZOS even hinted at, let alone made a firm commitment to deliver .. and please, always remember they lied about "tracking XP" when they were desperate to keep players from upping and going elsewhere the moment they [the playhers] realised the next 6 months was largely marking time and going nowhere .. so nothing they say now can be 100% relied upon.

I completely agree. The justice system is pale imitation of what you will find in the single player games. They made such a big deal about it but it's really just crap. invincible guards? No options for bounties except pay, die or just wait till it magically disappears? It's so lazy and uninspired. I was really hoping they would at least get that right.

bowmanz607 · February 2015

Besides the guards which are op. The system operates just like tes games. U either fight pay or avoid

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · February 2015

ZOS is not large enough to do 2 new client platforms and pay attention to everything else at the same time.

ZOS is not a low budget indie developer doing stuff from somebody's basement. It's a fairly large game studio, extremely well funded and supposedly professionally run and managed. They should know better than to make promises they can't keep, because as we can see in this forum, few things will make players as angry as being lied to.

eventide03b14a_ESO · February 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Kinda hard to release new content when you dont know how the foundation of your game is going to work. Have to focus on 1.6 before rolling out the new stuff. and of course they stopped working on the spellcrafting cause you cant work on everything at once. Not to mention how can you work on spell crafting when your working on re balancing the game. That doesn't even make sense. and ya they told us what they were working on 9 months ago. did you just expect them to spit it all out. There are only so many hands working on the damn thing. How can you give a release date for something when you dont know how it will work within the new system. Thats the problem with people, they have no patience. in a world where everything is available at your fingertips people get so anxious when things are not readily available to them. I have been playing this game since beta and have loved every moment of it.

I know you are trying to defend them, but it's hilarious. They don't know how their game is going to work...LMFAO. This game is out now for 10 months along with almost a year in beta. But you're right they don't know how their game works. If they did they would be able to figure out how to make it stable. They might also not need to have classes, skill lines, attribute point, and now another set of trees with a completely new set of points. This game has become so convoluted it's beyond ridiculous. It's a wonder that that the single player games managed to get by so long with their much simpler system. I guess we should be thankful we have ZOS to over complicate something that has been effective for 20 years.

Rosveen · February 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

then go play WoW. Did WoW also change the foundation of their game 7 months in?

It isn't something to be proud of. Making fundamental changes a year after release means one of the following:

they released the game before it was ready;
their original vision sucked;
their vision was fine, but they have a new BEST IDEA EVER, which may or may not be disastrous (read: NGE).

Neither of them paints the company in a good light.

eventide03b14a_ESO · February 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Besides the guards which are op. The system operates just like tes games. U either fight pay or avoid

NOT like other TES games. In other games you can actually kill the guards and the bounty never goes away unless you pay or spend time in jail. So yeah, not the same.

eventide03b14a_ESO · February 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

then go play WoW. Did WoW also change the foundation of their game 7 months in?

It isn't something to be proud of. Making fundamental changes a year after release means one of the following:
they released the game before it was ready;

their original vision sucked;

their vision was fine, but they have a new BEST IDEA EVER, which may or may not be disastrous (read: NGE).

Neither of them paints the company in a good light.

I'm starting to feel like they have no clue what they are doing and they are just adding a bunch of crap to see what sticks. They are terrible at communicating or listening to what we want or even sticking to their own time tables. After this introduction of the crown store I am really questioning their priorities as well. TES games have been around since 1994, nobody asked them to reinvent the system, just make a damn multiplayer version. Instead we got some DAOC rip off.

bowmanz607 · February 2015

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Kinda hard to release new content when you dont know how the foundation of your game is going to work. Have to focus on 1.6 before rolling out the new stuff. and of course they stopped working on the spellcrafting cause you cant work on everything at once. Not to mention how can you work on spell crafting when your working on re balancing the game. That doesn't even make sense. and ya they told us what they were working on 9 months ago. did you just expect them to spit it all out. There are only so many hands working on the damn thing. How can you give a release date for something when you dont know how it will work within the new system. Thats the problem with people, they have no patience. in a world where everything is available at your fingertips people get so anxious when things are not readily available to them. I have been playing this game since beta and have loved every moment of it.

I know you are trying to defend them, but it's hilarious. They don't know how their game is going to work...LMFAO. This game is out now for 10 months along with almost a year in beta. But you're right they don't know how their game works. If they did they would be able to figure out how to make it stable. They might also not need to have classes, skill lines, attribute point, and now another set of trees with a completely new set of points. This game has become so convoluted it's beyond ridiculous. It's a wonder that that the single player games managed to get by so long with their much simpler system. I guess we should be thankful we have ZOS to over complicate something that has been effective for 20 years.

they changed it cause we asked for it. so no they are not sure how the change we asked for will effect the rest of the game. hence it is on the PTS and requires much testing to get right. rather then force something down our throat they are willing to cut there loses and realize that a change needed to occur. why is that bad? I commend that. not many companies do that. I guess i will have to agree to disagree with many of you.

Seraphyel · February 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

they changed it cause we asked for it.

Yeah, because Veteran ranks are maybe the worst progression system I've ever seen in an MMORPG by now.

If they'd let the beta testers see the VR thing earlier, they would have had enough time to change it, but they just prevented us (the majority of testers) from seeing it.