Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Well as anecdotal as my little study is, I get a lot of people disputing me that the preconceived notions are tied only to elitists. They aren't. These weren't people telling me GTFO noob. It was the prevailing sentiment even from some of the nicest and most helpful people I have spoken to in game.

It's just than an issue consistently appeared when the conversation turned to my class.

Right. Elitists aren't usually like that because 1: they're good enough that they can carry you. They literally just need boots on a pad for a quick run or 2: They are short for a time run, in which case they need someone who knows what they're doing and meeting the minimum requirements just isn't good enough.

The reason why tier two guilds are often such sticklers about it is the misconception that these should be play-as-you-want situations

They're not. Get over it.

If I WANT to bring 11 healers and summoned clanfear as my DPS I should still be able to make it work right? No, its a team based challenge and being on a team means everyone does their part. Alot of people are hitting level cap now who have been playing the entire game "as they want" just fine and can't wrap their heads around the idea that they can't pass a trial by dodge-rolling around and spamming flurry while imagining their toon carving "Z" for Zorro into the Storm Atro's chest.

Now if you can get past my obvious condescension I am not condemning to OP or anyone else who has been having a fun playing experience throughout ESO playing their own way. Just that, as a casual guild leader, it's REALLY hard to trust PUGs who want to be tank with 2200 health and wearing a shadow walker set, or a DPS who is S/B and is whispering you that he has 2300 single target DPS. Or, even worse, a PUG you have completed a Trial with before only to learn now that he was 100% being carried then and that he is enough to single-handedly Titanic your much more casual group than before.

My point is that it's a hard challenge for casuals to get their groups through these challenges (even if it is a cakewalk for elite groups). For casual leaders is easier to stick to generic PUG requirements set by elite groups in the first place. Its an easy standard. Sure there is a chance that the guy on the other side of the keyboard knows what he is doing and is an asset even at 550 dps. But do you really want to take the risk when the last three DPS you picked up started their execute spam at 75% on the Stone Atro?

Joy_Division wrote: »

itsBishop wrote: »

You're right that the math doesn't lie, but 450 dps would make for an excruciatingly frustrating run and such a group would be unlikely to survive the Mage's burn phase due to strain on healers. Hence the often quoted ~750+ number as a minimum for an effective run.

I'm curious to hear from those in these second- and third-wave PvE guilds focused on completing Hel Ra/AA at the moment about what numbers their members are doing. Asking for 750+ DPS out of players doesn't seem elitist in my mind; hell Templars can do that with a crushing shock build.

I think 750+ is harder to reach than you think, especially for that fight. If a Templar could easily and consistently get that simply by equipping 1 skill, then threads like this would not exist.

Yes and no.

For a magic build Crushing shock + scalding rune is good for 450-550 DPS depending on Spell DMG/Crit/Mag pool. Its that missing 200 DPS thats hard to get to/past. I havn't tried it on my temp so everything else is speculation but perhaps Sunfire and Blazing spear may make the difference....

Now I'm getting the urge to go test... I'll see what I can come up with.

manny254 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Moreover, at equal skill, a DK will always pull more DPS than a templar and so will a NB so it's a waste to trade a DK and his DPS or a NB and his continuous veils of blades for a templar who just picked the wrong class when he began the game (why would you pick a healing class if you wanted to DPS? I mean yeah ok "Play as you want", but still, just look at the skills the class has to offer...).

Here in lies the problem. As much as I hate to admit it you are right, but I do have some counter arguments about the games design. If templars are the healer class then DK is the tank class. So why is the tank class one of the best at dps in the game? Even if other classes can tank well or even better DK is still the tank class.

That's the way it is. Which is why Templars are amazing in PVP, as healers, and pretty decent as tanks (although many guilds prefer DKs with reliable AoE CC since tanking in this game is literally a single debuff) but completely broken as viable DPS for PVE. There should be no "ideal" in regards to DPS just as there shouldn't be with healing.

Just making classes equal doesn't mean making them exactly the same. Which is a card people like to play. "If everybody could do everything equally they'd all be the same class."

They'd have a leg to stand on if support was needed at all. It's not. Which is why Sorcs are losing slots, too. You need maybe one for Negate.

Cody wrote: »

its clear these trials were only made for the top best players with min/max builds. That would be fine... if the best builds did not force players to put on a full set of robes and dawn a staff. Im not saying "play how you want" should mean "everything works" but c'mon, there is no reason for only 1-2 kinds of builds being able to get the top scores. (and tbh, there is no logical explination for a person in a dress to be a tank, but thats a discussion for another thread)

This isn't true. The only thing that you absolutely have to wear robes and staff for is healing. There are adequate/passable non-staff, non-light armor builds for most of the classes now.

Erock25 wrote: »

What I want to know is what was up with that group saying they required a DK or Sorc tank???? Sorc tanks are really sought after or was this guild just misinformed?

That honestly made me laugh. A sorc tank over a templar? I had never heard that one before.

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

What I want to know is what was up with that group saying they required a DK or Sorc tank???? Sorc tanks are really sought after or was this guild just misinformed?

I think it's for Restraining Prison for AoE CC and Streak for the kiting potential.

I didn't really understand it either, this is all the sense I can make of it. Sorcs can effectively stay at max ranged and kite-tank better than any other class. Which can be incredibly powerful, I run with one in Vets and DSA and as that group's healer, I've seen him go for over a minute on bosses without taking a hit using Inner Rage and Streak. And the best type of mitigation is inarguably not getting hit at all.

That is why I like Nightblade tanks.

People put to much stock in talons and prison. Some of the best tanks I know don't even use roots and stuns.

I actually smirk a bit when I see a DK tank trying to lock down all of the mobs in a pull with talons. It's even worse when he tries taunting them all.

Well light armour tanking is indeed a nice way to go but it's dangerous, difficult, not so safe, etc. Look it like a way to AoE DPS while tanking wich in some situations it's just what you need. (Speaking for Templars now) But if you want to be a resourcefull Tank, then you need to also have your Heavy armour set ready for some boss fights (Trials specialy)

magnusnet wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

its clear these trials were only made for the top best players with min/max builds. That would be fine... if the best builds did not force players to put on a full set of robes and dawn a staff. Im not saying "play how you want" should mean "everything works" but c'mon, there is no reason for only 1-2 kinds of builds being able to get the top scores. (and tbh, there is no logical explination for a person in a dress to be a tank, but thats a discussion for another thread)

This isn't true. The only thing that you absolutely have to wear robes and staff for is healing. There are adequate/passable non-staff, non-light armor builds for most of the classes now.

Problem as always is: Top players have FOM builds and do speed runs and clear content first. Then the other players, even though they prolly know that other types of builds and tactics can do it, will prefer to run with people that try to emulate those "top players" because it's the safe thing to do.

That's where the difference between people who just clear content for fun and people who clear content to beat the challenge as fast and as best as possible in order to also get on those leaderboards.

I see many people always complaining about being left out from runs because they don't have "standard" builds. All I can tell you is to look harder for casual guilds that are running trials. You might not always succeed at clearing the trials, but it's likely they won't force you or reject you just because you're trying something new or because you don't meet their standards.

Yeh, this is true, which is why I recommended that the OP learn how to do what is perceived to work, gain some credibility with whoever he runs with, and then start running whatever setup he can make work.

Once people know you as a excellent player, they won't really care what you run. However, when you are an unknown, they will usually expect you to be running something that they know and understand to work.

There is nothing that ZOS can do to change this. In most MMOs one of two things will happen. In game with an open Addon API, people will care less about your gear and more about your performance. In games with a closed Addon API or no Addons, people will pay more attention to your spec.

Pmarsico9, play as you want is perfectly fine, im just thinking why would 11 other people sacrifice the chance of beating trails, due to your play style done fit theirs?

Why should they adjust to your play style, when you dont wanna adjust to theirs?

I don't think most people realize that groups running the trials all the time are going to want min/max build of the week because they aren't running them to have fun, but to grind out a good time and get loot. (Not saying you can't do both, but one is a bigger concern for them than the other). This means they often aren't playing to the mechanics and stacking and burning and looking for certain roles to fit within that playstyle.

Your tank playstyle works fine for 99% of the game, but they are right that it leaves a margin of error. If you miss recasting something and go down because of it, it can cause everyone to wipe when you are talking high end stuff like trials or vet arena. Same reason they want templar healers - since they aren't playing the mechanics and avoiding the damage, they need someone that can spam stuff like breath of life to keep them alive.

@Sublime‌ you survive in trials, vet dsa and vet dungeons with that build? I'm curious what I can lern from you.
Or are you an Imperial with emperor buff or some health enchantmens?

With the stamina buffs, Templars can do all three roles. You can achieve comparable DPS to NBs and Sorcs, only surpassed by (well, surprise, DKs).

As for tanking, Templars are hands down the best tanks in my opinion, in terms of mitigation. This is debatable, of course, since the difference with DKs is small, but compared to DKs they lose some extra block dmg reduction but gain an awesome shield that can come in handy in many situations. That is assuming you are already hardcapped on Armor, which you should, if you want to be taken seriously and want to tank any form of meaningful trials, (HINT: Hel Ra and AA doesn't count).


Well, I don't think we need to discuss healing

EDIT: As for OP's methodology in tanking, I am a NB tank. I used to roll magicka and hardcap my armor through Bone Shield and Immovable. It is indeed too much room for error. If for whatever reason you get hit without the buffs up, you will die a horrible death, especially in SO. As such, it's better to have it already hard capped and focus your resources on group utility than having to rely on those buffs. Sure, your DPS is less, but you are not a DPS in the end, you are a tank.

EDIT2 :

Artemiisia wrote: »

Pmarsico9, play as you want is perfectly fine, im just thinking why would 11 other people sacrifice the chance of beating trails, due to your play style done fit theirs?

Why should they adjust to your play style, when you dont wanna adjust to theirs?

This is the bottom line of every group scenario, unless agreed otherwise. You are expected to play your character at its best. Sure, I'd love to DPS in heavy armor, but I know it's just not viable. You have to adapt to your group's demands. Different people have different demands.
Your group is as strong as the weakest member, in the end.