Bring back the old school XP loss ala EQ1

Kendaric

Theron75 wrote: »

Bitter and unhappy? No. Reasonably challenged? Yes.

Seriously?
"Reasonably challenged" is up for definition by every player. It is certainly not for you to decide what is reasonably challenging for me or any other player than yourself.

Svann

Even EQ1 doesnt have a real xp penalty anymore. You summon your corpse for a bit of gold then pull out your healer merc to res you up.

frwinters_ESO

No. Next topic.

Xaei

I'd be fine with it on a separate server. The question is if it would add enough benefit (especially financially) to the game for ZOS to shell out funding for it.

Sakiri

Theron75 wrote: »

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

Seriously. Dont make it sound like there is this huge majority of people who want it your way. Reality check: 95% of the people posting here hate it.

...Hell, my people also dont, and they like to wrap pink ribbons around their ankles, so for the sake of better gaming, everyone must now wear pink ribbons. The majority clearly wants it.

Reality check: forum posters typically represent less than 10% of a game's player base. Your opinion about majority/minority is hereby invalidated. I will agree with your second point, though. Most of you probably do like to wear pink ribbons.

Sissy Gamer achievement = unlocked.

Pink ribbons kick ass, you shush.

<has a pink Hello Kitty Visa >.>

Sakiri

Xaei wrote: »

I'm not quite sure if they actually can introduce a different servers with those rules. Especially if they introduce raids (aka Trials).

It's not just the MMOs themselves that moved away from death penalties, but entire design philosophies. I remember back in the day, death was actually a pretty rare thing in a MMO. These days, death is a part of the learning experience in end-game content. In most raids on our first try, my guilds would spend hours and hours dying over and over again just learning the mechanics. You are expected to die, many times in fact, so if you add death penalties to most of today's games, it leads to so much frustration that the game just becomes unplayable.

EQ raiding + deleveling = groups grinding xp so your clerics could cast max level spells again before raid.

Sakiri

Chryos wrote: »

Hey guys, lets not go down the path of the "dark side" (like that?) Let's refrain from taking personal jabs and insults at each other, because we dont know each other in the real world, which if we did, we certainly wouldnt be talking like that face to face.

I talk like that face to face.

Havent been punched yet.

Chryos

Xaei wrote: »

I'd be fine with it on a separate server. The question is if it would add enough benefit (especially financially) to the game for ZOS to shell out funding for it.

Thats a good question, probably not tho. Maybe we can get some sort of compromise.

GreySix

Sakiri wrote: »

I talk like that face to face.

Havent been punched yet.

Then these are more friendly and touchy-feely times than when I was growing up in the 80s. Back then, you'd get your teeth punched out for just looking at folks the wrong way.

Lanatireb17_ESO

GreySix wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

I talk like that face to face.

Havent been punched yet.

Then these are more friendly and touchy-feely times than when I was growing up in the 80s. Back then, you'd get your teeth punched out for just looking at folks the wrong way.

These days it would already be enough if the Forums, before you can actually post, would read back aloud to you what you just posted. For some people here that would be worse than getting punched in the face. Cause i seriously think they are on cruise control when they post and have no real idea what they are writing.

thilog

Chryos wrote: »

I wrote this in another post. Gear repair is in no way something that causes me pure dread when I die in game. We need a real punishment for death to keep it real. People wont take the same risks then:

"Here is the fix.... remove gear damage and bring back xp loss upon death, not an xp penalty but EQ1 style xp loss, then that will give death a "real bite" and force players to not be so careless or reckless in game. I mentioned this in beta as did many others. XP loss is still by far the best penalty hands down for dying."

What do ya'll think? This means once you level, youll have to get that buffer xp to keep you from delevling if u die immediately after leveling up.

This is how old school MMORPG'ers rolled before they all went easy for the young kids, or went "softcore"

This is the best death penalty system ever, tried and true..

(EDIT: Once xp is lost due to death, another player can "Rez" you to get back 90% of the xp lost, for example death costs a 10% xp penalty, upon player rez, you get 90% back of the 10% you lost, this is close to how the old school games did, roughly)

I disagree.

Keep gear degradation. Add xp loss and run for corpse. ie like EQ Style. Also add in a 50% money loss of carried cash.

Also like EQ add in money coin weight.. the more you carry the slower you go.
Would be great to see people actually wanting healers in their group that were actually templars and it would be equally nice to see people dragging thier own corpse around to a safe place to rearm etc like we had to do in eq.

thilog

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

over time players will start leaving any game that pursues a punish the player for playing the game death penalty , it is why every game that had that set up has dropped it or gone down to such a small player base that it does not make enough profit to even be a cash shop supported game(i.e. f2p or B2P).

that is also one of the things that helped make WoW so successful early on as they did not pursue a punish the player type of death penalty as they did not delevel a player if they died to often , or remove a players gear when they died . which actualy encouraged players to explore the game and to play the game .

Surprisingly, if people left a game because it was too hard.. once it got around that the game was too hard, you'd actually see an influx of hard core gamers into the game. And hardcore gamers are hard to get rid of, ie keeping the cry babies who pay for 2 months or the hardcore who pay for life.. you work out which is the better financial option.

The reason so many left early on, to return to games they were playing previously, like Eve, Eq, Diablo.. to name a few, was because Wow was too easy, esp around the time they wiped out open world pvp and made it arena only. The changes made to wow because of cry babies imho destroyed any chance that the game would be recognised as worthy.

These days most people say "Wow.. yeah I played.. don't know why, waste of time really"

The only good thing "i" got from wow.. was a t shirt.

thilog

xDonMega wrote: »

What they need to do is make an MMORPG that you can level from 1-Max strictly from PvP.. it should be the most effective way to level in the game and getting gear.

If you want to PvE you can for titles and trophies, or other bullshiz items that don't mean anything.

That's what people want, not to have to clock in to another job.

These games don't exist, because it just doesn't work. Without a pve safe element, people won't do pvp if they can loose something or need to gain skill via an avatar, this is why planetside fails, it's why battlefield or various other fps games are played for a few weeks or a month before being shelved as "boring"

Imo, "boring" means "i'm too scared to play"

Only exception I've seen to this to date is World of Tanks.. where people have remained for years now.. shooting at each other.. from behind buildings and over the crests of hilltops.

Oh and of course, Civ.. a game I've put over 3.5k hours into, 50% of it in pvp.

thilog

Chryos wrote: »

xDonMega

The game is not difficult enough, thats why one month into the game, people are max level. How many years left do we have to play this game? How long will it take for max level people to get bored now?

If anyone deserves a perma ban, it might be those who didnt quite think out longevity on an MMO. We have like another 10 years to go, one month in, max level. How is a harsher death punishment a bad idea?

It smells like WoW or sissified to me.

(My compromise is that it should take longer to gain levels then)

Contrary to my other posts..

I honestly feel the quests and the "game" is very nicely balanced. I do feel it is unfortunate that you reach endgame pvp within 3-4 weeks.

Pvp should be for anyone, at any level. ie there's no reason why people shouldn't be active in cyrodile at lv 5 or 10 or 50.

The game could maybe do with "more quests" and therefore less xp and money rewarded and thus a longer period to level up. But for the amount of quests available, the smallness of the maps in general, disallowing the ability to grind levels up, the lack of dungeons of any decent size etc.. this is the real issue.

Add in more.. because more is good. The game will be overall alot better.

I'd personally like to see a linear main quest added in, so I get difficulty and xp/loot when doing grey quests.

fiachsidhe

Drop dead.

Hypersillyman

XP loss and xp debt were NEVER a good idea. All they accomplish is to overly punish a player for playing the game. In game, characters die. Sometimes it is the player's own fault. They over pulled, or waited too long to run or heal. Sometimes, it is someone else's fault. They brought a train through. Happened a LOT in old EQ. Sometimes, it is a technical glitch. This is where xp loss becomes truly egregious. Is it really fair for a player to lose a level, and potentially lose access to abilities and gear, due to lag, or a server crash, or some other technical complication that has NOTHING to do with in game play? Of source it isn't. Not everything from the "good old days" was really all that good. Tint your glasses with as much rose coloring as you want, there are some mechanics from the original generation of MMOs that needed to be done away with. XP loss is one of them. That mechanic is gone and needs to stay gone. Good riddance to it.

Chryos

I still disagree with you guys simply because if people had to risk an xp loss during death, there would be alot less risks being taken, people would be alot more careful. So yeah, sometimes the "good ole days" do get it right. You give me reasons like, sometimes when theres a bug etc, and you lose xp, its not fair. How often did that ever really happen? Not much, hardly ever. This is just how this generation is with games and MMOs. Prime example, the other day, II get an achievment from dying due to a slaughterfish. Why in the world do I get rewarded for failure? Why is failure a reward in games now? At least I can play a vampire and that brings the difficulty up a little bit.

Hey I know I'm in the minority, but it's just crazy how MMOs have gotten utterly destroyed by people who complain that its just too hard. MIght as well download an add on that plays the game for you, and uses an "I win" macro button..

Apricot

Chryos wrote: »

I still disagree with you guys simply because if people had to risk an xp loss during death, there would be alot less risks being taken, people would be alot more careful.

I have no clue why you think this is a good idea. I've previously said I'm not as good a player as I could be because I'm not taking risks in this game. The cost of repairs is just too high. Normally I'd go back to those mobs or whatever that just handed me my ass and try again. And again. Try new tactics, new abilities - get better. As it is I just bypass that challenge now because I don't want to pay the cost.

Don't want players to take risks? Talk about sissyfying a game . . .

Chryos wrote: »

So yeah, sometimes the "good ole days" do get it right. You give me reasons like, sometimes when theres a bug etc, and you lose xp, its not fair. How often did that ever really happen? Not much, hardly ever.

In this game??? All the time. It's happened to me several times. I see nothing, start losing stats and BOOM . . . dead. It's unacceptable that this should cost me gold let alone xp levels.

Chryos wrote: »

Hey I know I'm in the minority, but it's just crazy how MMOs have gotten utterly destroyed by people who complain that its just too hard. MIght as well download an add on that plays the game for you, and uses an "I win" macro button..

What game, exactly, has been destroyed by people complaining the game was too hard?

At any rate, there are niche games out there that might suit you better.

Chryos

This is just how I feel about the trend of todays MMO's. The greater implications are that game companies are just churning out cookie cutter MMOs these days, and it's true. A new MMO player might not notice these things, but us veteran ones do. Anyway, this is just stuff people should think about.

Anyway, this is just all about how I feel. I respect everyones opinion in here of course. However its a discussion forum, so if someone argues a point against, then I feel compelled to argue back lol.

Anyone ever watch the guy that does the WoW Machinism videos? He talks about has WoW has evolved into "easy" mode. It's pretty funny stuff, but so true.

Chryos

@Apricot I do see your point, I guess its just a perspective thing for me. I am trying to consider a new perspective on this subject, but so far I guess I am still stuck on what I believe.

Also, I do love this game. I would try a "niche" game, however I'd want to play one that just came out vs. one thats been out for years. Nothing worse than joining a game in the midst of the population dying off.

Apricot

Chryos wrote: »

Anyway, this is just all about how I feel. I respect everyones opinion in here of course. However its a discussion forum, so if someone argues a point against, then I feel compelled to argue back lol.

Fair enough. I don't think anyone's going to begrudge you your opinion.

Chryos wrote: »

Anyone ever watch the guy that does the WoW Machinism videos? He talks about has WoW has evolved into "easy" mode. It's pretty funny stuff, but so true.

People have been saying this about WoW since BC.

Blizzard has done some things wrong to be sure. But they became a million dollar cooperation because they did a lot more things right. One of the things they made sure of was that it didn't become a niche game. Everyone can find something to do in that game. Everyone. Including hard core gamers. And if you don't think there are more hard core gamers, PvE and PvP alike, that are playing WoW than Eve, you would be mistaken. What they didn't do is limit the game to just one type of gamer.

You can raid regular or hardmode. You can make tons of gold off your professions or farming. You can explore, become an alt-o-holic, pvp (casually or competitively) talk smack and duel in Goldshire all day, collect mounts, complete achievements, run heroics, hunt rares, do seasonal events, and on and on and on. What made WoW a legend is they opened their game to everyone and made it fun.

And yes, you had your snarky, overcompensating, sixteen-year-old adolescent males whining about stay at home moms invading their game. OMG call the cops the game must be easy now. Thing is, I have never encountered tougher fights than heroic Yogg-Saron or Algalon, before or since. This was in WRATH, you know, the expansion that had over 12 million subs.

From a developers' and a gamers' perspective making a game a success is really pretty simple: make it accessible, make it fun.

isengrimb16_ESO

XP loss sucks. Hated it in Diablo 2 (can't remember if D1 did it), swore I'd never play another video game like that.

Tabletop games, fine. The one I played, a stupid, cowardly or dishonourable action could result in you being stripped of your rank.

Video games pretty much like to force you to die a lot. where you probably wouldn't in a tabletop game. No need to make it more of a pain in the ass than it is, just because of old-school nostalgia. If I want that, I'll try to play Arena.

I also detest games where players can steal from one another (online Diablo one and two, looking at you.)

Chryos

Did they ever make Arena playable? I think the amount of patches exceeded the amount of space the game actually took up, lol. By then, it was too little, too late, I was already disgusted with the game's designers. I gave them a second chance when Morrowind came out.

Chryos

Well, all points aside.

I want a switch or an option to play with xp loss. If we are opening up the game for everyone. I want that option for us hardcore players along with the prestige of playing it in hardcore mode.

Apricot

Chryos wrote: »

Well, all points aside.

I want a switch or an option to play with xp loss. If we are opening up the game for everyone. I want that option for us hardcore players along with the prestige of playing it in hardcore mode.

That I wouldn't be opposed to. But it seems like an awful lot of work for the devs to go through for the three of you.

Capjack01

yuck. next you'll wanna bring back an old fashioned naked corpse run. while there were indeed some hilarious times due to those...I cant honestly say I 'miss' that

temjiu

Chryos wrote: »

Well, all points aside.

I want a switch or an option to play with xp loss. If we are opening up the game for everyone. I want that option for us hardcore players along with the prestige of playing it in hardcore mode.

Now THIS I could get behind. a toggled Softcore or Hardcore option. reminds me of d2 in the old days. hardcore was...well, hardcore. you played it if you wanted the risk. small portion of the gaming community liked, and played. the rest played softcore.

Apricot had it right. And I would add to that....current games want to hit enough people in ALL the target audiences to make up the budget loss they often encounter in large scale productions like this. catering to ONLY a few smaller niche groups wont cut it.

It's really the nature of the market, not whether game mechanics are viable or not. niche gaming tends to favor the smaller, indie development style games (like path of exile). small budget, f2p, small loss if 3/4 of the population doesn't want to play.

When you have a game with the costs of ESO...you need a larger playerbase to recoup. otherwise companies go out of business fast. One of the reasons many companies nowadays copy WoW's structure (development, not necessarily mechanics) is exactly because of the reasons Apricot stated.

The key is to do their best to provide alternatives to those wishing a more challenging environment. and it sounds like craiglorn is their next offer in hopes of appeasing those smaller niches.time trails + rewards for winning them = happy elitist players.

I'd also go with the toggle option you mentioned Chryos. I have nothing against those who wish an environment with more impacting results for failure. I'm just not one of those

Jeremy

xDonMega wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Chryos wrote: »

xDonMega

The game is not difficult enough, thats why one month into the game, people are max level. How many years left do we have to play this game? How long will it take for max level people to get bored now?

If anyone deserves a perma ban, it might be those who didnt quite think out longevity on an MMO. We have like another 10 years to go, one month in, max level. How is a harsher death punishment a bad idea?

It smells like WoW or sissified to me.

(My compromise is that it should take longer to gain levels then)

I agree with you that this game moves way too fast.

But I think the right answer for that would be to slow the rate of experience. Not put in experience penalties when players die.

Are both of you on drugs?

First off, I played EQ1.. the only reason it made money was because it was the first of its kind.

Also, slowing the rate of experience is a terrible idea, worthy of another perma ban. After questing and grinding to 50, now I have to do quest hell for vet ranks?

And that's not slow enough for you?

The people that are already max level either got in on some exploit, or literally have no lives.

The reason I saw this game moves too fast isn't because I'm on drugs

It's because I am constantly out-growing the content before I complete it, which makes me feel rushed. This may change later on (I am level 27). But as things are now, I'm going to stick to my opinion. Please don't perma ban me for it ^^

aleister

Chryos wrote: »

"Here is the fix.... remove gear damage and bring back xp loss upon death, not an xp penalty but EQ1 style xp loss, then that will give death a "real bite" and force players to not be so careless or reckless in game. I mentioned this in beta as did many others. XP loss is still by far the best penalty hands down for dying."

No.