OVERALL; things that require improvement in crafting....

Warlordgreebo

So many of these things need improvement to even be on par with standard mmo;
1. inventory space- no excuse for making the majority of our time spent managing bag space.
2. availability/marking of vendor- if we got to sell so often shouldnt the vendor be EASY TO FIND? Shouldnt they be marked??
4. Ease of market; no auction house is a fail on its own, but giving us no means with which to replace this shortcoming? The guild store system is horribly inadequate; when usually WHATEVER can be sold can be found on AH, in the guild store system it is more like "what kind of junk are they putting on there, is even ONE thing worth buying?? NO?!!!" Well it ISNT the guild I blame; it is the company for making such a *** system for the guild to use!
5. research at the mercy of random drops?? I have to SAVE RANDOM *** JUST TO BE ABLE TO RESEARCH IT?? YET THE INVENTORY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM IS CRAP !~!! [snip]??
6. Day long research times on items?? FOR A SINGLE TRAIT?? [snip]

There will be more to add, I emplore you to change these things, as to the standard gamer these things are just more reasons the game fails to live up to the hype.

[edited for bashing & profanity bypass]

Brennan

LOL

taylorwilenskiub17_ESO

So in that whole mental break down you just had, you only listed one thing that is actually about crafting lol...

LadyInTheWater

Warlordgreebo wrote: »

1. inventory space- no excuse for making the majority of our time spent managing bag space.

I'm not even gonna respond to that one, there are a few threads about that issue already.

2. availability/marking of vendor- if we got to sell so often shouldnt the vendor be EASY TO FIND? Shouldnt they be marked??

The vendors are marked on the map. If you hover over one of the building icons, it shows you the list of NPCs that are in the building. Next to each NPC name is the icon of which crafting profession they're related to. So, the blacksmithing vendor will have a little anvil next to her name, and the woodworking vendor will have the little triangle-woodworking-thingy icon next to hers.

3. Ease of market; no auction house is a fail on its own, but giving us no means with which to replace this shortcoming? The guild store system is horribly inadequate; when usually WHATEVER can be sold can be found on AH, in the guild store system it is more like "what kind of junk are they putting on there, is even ONE thing worth buying?? NO?!!!" Well it ISNT the guild I blame; it is the company for making such a [snip] system for the guild to use!

There are also a few threads about this as well. But, I'll respond to this one:
Aside from small features (such as item search and more accurate filters), the guild store functions exactly like the auction houses found in other games; Post an item for sale, and people may buy it.
As for what is actually posted for sale, if players are going to post junk then they'll post junk. Whether it's a global AH or a Guild Store, the devs aren't responsible for what people post for sale. If you're looking for a wide market, join 3 or 4 "trade" guilds (a lot are advertised in chat).
From what I can gather, games like World of Warcraft and Rift have about 5,000 people on average on a (well-populated) server. This game has only a single server, and with about 2,000 being able to join a single guild, you can have a potential shopper base of 10,000 people across all 5 guilds. This is potentially double the amount of potential shoppers than you would have in any other game. So, it's hard to feel that this is a design shortcoming, when there's an easily viable solution.

4. research at the mercy of random drops?? I have to SAVE RANDOM *** JUST TO BE ABLE TO RESEARCH IT?? YET THE INVENTORY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM IS CRAP !~!! [snip]??

You can also purchase items from the guild store, and use those for research. In addition, I'm sure you've noticed that many people are "trading" items for deconstruction to level their crafting. Well, I'm not sure if this occurred to you, but you can also take one of those trait gems you have, give it to someone who has already researched the trait you're looking for, and have them craft it for you. Then, you can use that crafted item to research the trait you want. You're absolutely not at the mercy of "random drops".

5. Day long research times on items?? FOR A SINGLE TRAIT?? [snip]

I prefer this system. I could only imagine, if trait research was instantaneous, or even just reduced, that the powergamers would have capped their crafting by now. Which means that the newer crafters (who didn't cap their research in the first week) would fall by the wayside. At least, in the current system, the people who are more dedicated to crafting will be competitive regardless of whether or not they're new players. Whereas the people who don't feel like putting in the time or patience to work on their research will be the ones who will have to catch up. By that rationale, the devs have an extreme amount of consideration for the greater portion of their playerbase, rather than catering to a handful of powergamers/powerlevelers.

[edited to remove quote]

Warlordgreebo

Ladyinthewater,

I understand you may think you are standing up for the game.

But the fact is you have things quite backwards.

Catering to the few is what this game is doing. Not just the few, but the elite who got their 50's first.

Look at the new conetent; all 50+, look at the trade system; all elitist, as anyone else would be stuck with trash.

Any notion that I might be able to research EVEN FOR JUST MY OWN USE to make anything worthwhile is just false. I would need thousands of hours in FARMING JUNK just to spend hundreds of hours RESEARCHING IT!

I am sorry but to any sort of casual mmo player, this is a failure of epic proportions.

LadyInTheWater

@Warlordgreebo‌ I don't see that at all.

I would love to see an example of how the system, as it's in place now, caters only to the elitist. I truly don't see your side of things.

As for the research issues, though, I haven't had any issues at all getting items for research. If I want to research something specific, first I see if I have an item. If I don't, I check the guild store. If it's not there, I find someone to craft it for me. I have yet to run into any issues, and I certainly haven't felt like I'd need to spend thousands of hours farming junk.

Granted, I can wholly agree with you when you say you'll need hundreds of hours to research everything. And you're right: Lots and lots of time to research everything. And, personally, I'm glad it's that way. It means that the people who hate looking for items to research aren't going to bother. Whereas, I love doing my research. So, even as a casual player (or "clueless noob" as someone was kind enough to imply), I'll still be competitive in crafting.

Phranq

I don't understand what you are ranting about.. for the most part, Lady is correct.. I am a *very* casual player due to having a job that forces me to work some 60 - 70 hours a week.. anyways.. I am level 16 currently. Have been making my own gear from the start and have blacksmithing to level 8 I think.. as it stands, I have 3 or 4 traits on everything and am making myself some of the sets. If anything, research is *too easy* as everyone and their brother seems to have a smithing alt and thus there is no market for crafted goods.
I for one do not want an auction house but I don't like the guild approach either.. I would rather see a trade chat channel.

Warlordgreebo

Example 1;

Research ONE TYPE of item; 5 different traits. Depending on random drops, you will need HUNDREDS of viable items to drop.

Who best to farm those items than an elitist who can pbaoe farm??

So are those bots that farm bosses actually working within the designs fo the game as it were?? Looks like it!

This system that EXCLUDES everyone but those who bot or mass farm.. is indeed a system which favors the elite.

Furthermore, due to the FAILED trade system; this further excludes gamers from being able to trade their items. Instead of being able to rely on the AH to trade with a crafter... I am left to the mercy of Guild Trade houses which no matter how they sound when you join ... can barely produce. Most just lose interest in the system.

I hate to have to admit this; I have as much to lose as you. But the more I play, the more I see this system as failing HARD at being an mmo.

Phranq

Did you even read my post ? All it takes is a friend or two that also crafts and you can TRADE traits. It really is not that hard.. most of the traits I am missing are ones that I didnt care about and left to do last..
Let me say it again louder so maybe you will notice..
RESEARCH IS TOO EASY !!!
You sound to me like a spoiled child upset because you can't craft end-game gear after the first *week* Wah! I want it *NOW*

Audigy

1. inventory space- no excuse for making the majority of our time spent managing bag space.

The space is fine, we just need our own house where we can store weapons, food and stuff. It would be totally unrealistic if we could carry 200 weapons, armors etc. with us.

2. availability/marking of vendor- if we got to sell so often shouldnt the vendor be EASY TO FIND? Shouldnt they be marked??

They are marked on your mini map.

4. Ease of market; no auction house is a fail on its own, but giving us no means with which to replace this shortcoming? The guild store system is horribly inadequate; when usually WHATEVER can be sold can be found on AH, in the guild store system it is more like "what kind of junk are they putting on there, is even ONE thing worth buying?? NO?!!!" Well it ISNT the guild I blame; it is the company for making such a *** system for the guild to use!

MMO´s didn't start with AH´s, its something that came over time and many players see them as a mistake. While they help you to avoid any social contact with other gamers, they also destroy the economy.

You will be able to get everything instantly, where is the fun in that?

Guild stores are not the answer, but having some trade outpost´s or flying merchants that serve as a downgraded AH where you can list one or two items a time might be worth it. Those trade post´s however should require a quest line and maybe a fee, so that people have to actually think twice before using them and they should never ever be cross zone.

5. research at the mercy of random drops?? I have to SAVE RANDOM *** JUST TO BE ABLE TO RESEARCH IT?? YET THE INVENTORY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM IS CRAP !~!! [snip]??

So you prefer a system where you need to craft 500 armors so that you have access to some good recipes?

I think the research system is perfectly fine and it is a lot of fun. In my opinion the crafting as a whole is almost perfect at TESO and one of the best crafting systems I saw in the past few years. Ultima and SWG might still be infront also because of the housing aspect, but its still a great system that can see future updates for sure.

6. Day long research times on items?? FOR A SINGLE TRAIT?? [snip]

Haha.

At SWG you had to wait a week or months and needed additional crafters for specific stuff Ever crafted a factory, a shuttle bay or a guild hall? You guys just don't know how MMO´s worked before Blizzards approach.

MMO´s are not meant to be played through in a week. They should offer content for many months, up to years. In my opinion ZO should copy a few things from SWG in regards of crafting, but I believe this would end in millions of tears as it takes too long for the impatient ones

[edited to remove quote]

Brennan

Warlordgreebo wrote: »

Example 1;

Research ONE TYPE of item; 5 different traits. Depending on random drops, you will need HUNDREDS of viable items to drop.

Who best to farm those items than an elitist who can pbaoe farm??

So are those bots that farm bosses actually working within the designs fo the game as it were?? Looks like it!

This system that EXCLUDES everyone but those who bot or mass farm.. is indeed a system which favors the elite.

Furthermore, due to the FAILED trade system; this further excludes gamers from being able to trade their items. Instead of being able to rely on the AH to trade with a crafter... I am left to the mercy of Guild Trade houses which no matter how they sound when you join ... can barely produce. Most just lose interest in the system.

I hate to have to admit this; I have as much to lose as you. But the more I play, the more I see this system as failing HARD at being an mmo.

LOL

Nortar

Audigy wrote: »

I think the research system is perfectly fine and it is a lot of fun. In my opinion the crafting as a whole is almost perfect at TESO and one of the best crafting systems I saw in the past few years.

Well, to each his own.
I, with all due respect, can never agree that a game system that requires you to click a button once per week is “a lot of fun”.
If there is a reason for such a system, it’s definitely not to be fun or engaging. Actually it’s boring and lazy.

Maybe I’m just used to a really good crafting system, like the one in Everquest 2 for example.
Especially before the WORTs (who even remember what it stands for?) inter dependency removal and when the forge was among the top 10 character killers.
Or how about original Wyrmsteel weapons, when 12 people had to defend the smith working at the forge inside a raid-zone with never-ending waves of enemies?

But nowdays we have an “almost perfect crafting” were all you have to do is click “Craft” button to receive a suit of epic armor. It’s not even funny.

I guess a lot of people just misunderstand “difficult” with “tedious” and "interesting" with "time consuming".

kreekitb16_ESO

As it seems, the Game is not what you like, but there are alot of others who actually like it... so pls dont get hit by the door on the way out to find a game which suits you without changing everything...

Oh and Don´t Forget to send me your Money before you leave pls... Need to buy Bag Space

Zaxq

Or how about original Wyrmsteel weapons, when 12 people had to defend the smith working at the forge inside a raid-zone with never-ending waves of enemies?

The OP would have a proper breakdown if this were the case - that would definitely require some effort. And friends.

Altho I love stuff like that.

Warlordgreebo

Well my current solution to the research system; put all things that you could research later in the bank. Keep your bank clean.

All the other problems remain though. This system will NOT be familiar nor popular with the masses. The trade system as it stands, simply isn't working. You can defend it all you wish, that doesn't make it any less broken.

Putting us 10 years back to chat spamming just to trade? That's Everquest 1 style. Yet one more fail for the game. Wasnt the game supposed to be ADVANCING the genre? Doesnt seem like it is in trades.

Warlordgreebo

Zaxq wrote: »

Or how about original Wyrmsteel weapons, when 12 people had to defend the smith working at the forge inside a raid-zone with never-ending waves of enemies?

The OP would have a proper breakdown if this were the case - that would definitely require some effort. And friends.

Altho I love stuff like that.

Taking pleasure in the displeasure of others... only shows a low quality of person. It does nothing to advance your state or cause; should you even have one.

Zaxq

Warlordgreebo wrote: »

Zaxq wrote: »

Or how about original Wyrmsteel weapons, when 12 people had to defend the smith working at the forge inside a raid-zone with never-ending waves of enemies?

The OP would have a proper breakdown if this were the case - that would definitely require some effort. And friends.

Altho I love stuff like that.

Taking pleasure in the displeasure of others... only shows a low quality of person. It does nothing to advance your state or cause; should you even have one.

Yeah, great job trying to look clever however, you drew the wrong inference from my post.

"I love stuff like that" refers to the raid zone crafting, and not the OPs displeasure.

Well done on being a pretentious prat though.

10/10.

LadyInTheWater

Warlordgreebo wrote: »

Example 1;

Research ONE TYPE of item; 5 different traits. Depending on random drops, you will need HUNDREDS of viable items to drop.

Who best to farm those items than an elitist who can pbaoe farm??

So are those bots that farm bosses actually working within the designs fo the game as it were?? Looks like it!

This system that EXCLUDES everyone but those who bot or mass farm.. is indeed a system which favors the elite.

Furthermore, due to the FAILED trade system; this further excludes gamers from being able to trade their items. Instead of being able to rely on the AH to trade with a crafter... I am left to the mercy of Guild Trade houses which no matter how they sound when you join ... can barely produce. Most just lose interest in the system.

I hate to have to admit this; I have as much to lose as you. But the more I play, the more I see this system as failing HARD at being an mmo.

LadyInTheWater wrote: »

You can also purchase items from the guild store, and use those for research. In addition, I'm sure you've noticed that many people are "trading" items for deconstruction to level their crafting. Well, I'm not sure if this occurred to you, but you can also take one of those trait gems you have, give it to someone who has already researched the trait you're looking for, and have them craft it for you. Then, you can use that crafted item to research the trait you want. You're absolutely not at the mercy of "random drops".

Phranq wrote: »

Did you even read my post ?

@Phranq‌ , At this point, I'm pretty sure @Warlordgreebo‌ isn't reading any posts other than his own. It's pretty apparent when more than one person says "No, you don't have to spend hours farming", and he keeps insisting that you have to spend hours farming.

taylorwilenskiub17_ESO

He must be a 16 year old WoW noob who is used to everything being handed to him and not having to put any effort into things. Would you like to just start the game with all crafts mastered, all of the racial styles known, and all research traits known?

Or if that is too easy maybe they should just let you research as many traits as you want all at once and make it only take an hour! Why play an MMO, a game that is designed to keep you entertained for years with things to do if you want it all handed to you.

Sorry OP, but go QQ in a corner more...

Also, next time you're going to post a thread about your displeasure towards a game at least put your argument and reasons together like a capable adult, rather than an angry child,

aeroch

Don't really have a problem with anything in the OP.

Biggest gripe is the underwhelming crafted set bonuses. Hopefully there will be more variety and better quality sets as additional content is released

ClaudiaMay

Wall of badly written text crits eyes for 10000000. /ClaudiaMay flails

I'll just go back to being perfectly capable at doing everything the OP seems to have issues with.

I won't even bother with most of the items brought up, as others have covered it relatively well (and some are just silly). But really, research is fine. It's a long term investment that rewards the dedicated. Seems fine to me. Besides, most items seem to have a few "nicer while leveling" traits that you can pick and choose from to research early on. For example, increased armor/enchant percentage on armor, maybe exploration experience? Researched those already. Increased attack speed/crit on weapons? Dun did it.

Prioritize, plan ahead, and store a few extra items with future research traits away. I personally store them on an alt I'm not playing yet, as it makes it easier to sift through then my bank filled with improvement stones

Warlordgreebo

LadyInTheWater wrote: »

Warlordgreebo wrote: »

Example 1;

Research ONE TYPE of item; 5 different traits. Depending on random drops, you will need HUNDREDS of viable items to drop.

Who best to farm those items than an elitist who can pbaoe farm??

So are those bots that farm bosses actually working within the designs fo the game as it were?? Looks like it!

This system that EXCLUDES everyone but those who bot or mass farm.. is indeed a system which favors the elite.

Furthermore, due to the FAILED trade system; this further excludes gamers from being able to trade their items. Instead of being able to rely on the AH to trade with a crafter... I am left to the mercy of Guild Trade houses which no matter how they sound when you join ... can barely produce. Most just lose interest in the system.

I hate to have to admit this; I have as much to lose as you. But the more I play, the more I see this system as failing HARD at being an mmo.

LadyInTheWater wrote: »

You can also purchase items from the guild store, and use those for research. In addition, I'm sure you've noticed that many people are "trading" items for deconstruction to level their crafting. Well, I'm not sure if this occurred to you, but you can also take one of those trait gems you have, give it to someone who has already researched the trait you're looking for, and have them craft it for you. Then, you can use that crafted item to research the trait you want. You're absolutely not at the mercy of "random drops".

Phranq wrote: »

Did you even read my post ?

@Phranq‌ , At this point, I'm pretty sure @Warlordgreebo‌ isn't reading any posts other than his own. It's pretty apparent when more than one person says "No, you don't have to spend hours farming", and he keeps insisting that you have to spend hours farming.

Actually no. It is Lady (edit) that just keeps reading and re-reading the first posts Warlord Greebo made. Somehow thinking that Ive even made a comment in the last 2 days. Been too busy playing

And not really giving a hoot. I can work around it with extensive effort, or just let it go...

Celless

re: NPC vendor. There's a setting in the options / interface if I recall that allows you to turn on the life bars of NPCs. It helps me find the NPC in a crowd of PCs, especially at banks.

re: Research. I'm fine / glad with the current system. I've found a fair deal of my desired research traits through quest rewards. And I've been able to meet others who have the trait that I want and offer them something to trade or pay them in most cases for that trait.

And if it's a trait I don't have, but I won't be able to research another and I'm hurting on inventory space, I just sell / deconstruct the item. I figure I'll find another one some day, be it guild store or another player. Haven't read the rest of the thread, just the first few posts.

Lupinemw

See an MMO should be like real life when it comes to learning it. I should turn up on day one of School and by the end of Day 1 be a Professor of everything. The idea that I should have to spend time studying and it could take a while is just stupid.

Being casual or not doesn't really matter as you can start something in research and leave it. The idea of many games is to give something depth and make people come back. Crafting this way does that.

I haven't hit level 50 and won't for a while, I'm somewhere between a casual and Elite player depending on if I can be bothered that day or now and I have to say its a breadth of fresh air that I am forced to work for things.

With regards to drops trade with people, its what I do within my own guild and if people need stuff in game i'm willing to help them as well. Im in the Euro server as @Lupinemw.

You can find my crafting sheet here;

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsC3RvXpep-qdDdIbVl2OG16MG5YdURCdkZhQ3BRNEE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

Which will even tell you what Items I can craft with what Traits. If you have some I'm missing we could be nice and swap.

Warlordgreebo

The real progress ive got with this is by lowbie farming... just finding a way to kill thousands of gimp little things per hour... and go to my bank when full.

But as this is too much of the traditional way... I still find myself objecting to it.

Funny part is when I damn near level at the same speed just slaughtering these dudes 4-5 levels under me, and filling my bags.

Reminds me of that Make Love Not Warcraft, South Park; BOARS? Yes dude, boars... We will have to kill 25, 260, 922 to be exact!:)

Warlordgreebo

taylorwilenskiub17_ESO wrote: »

He must be a 16 year old WoW noob who is used to everything being handed to him and not having to put any effort into things. Would you like to just start the game with all crafts mastered, all of the racial styles known, and all research traits known?

Or if that is too easy maybe they should just let you research as many traits as you want all at once and make it only take an hour! Why play an MMO, a game that is designed to keep you entertained for years with things to do if you want it all handed to you.

Sorry OP, but go QQ in a corner more...

Also, next time you're going to post a thread about your displeasure towards a game at least put your argument and reasons together like a capable adult, rather than an angry child,

Actually, by your name- Taylor 17_ESO ... I would infer you were 17. All of the statements you have made about others are based on your own assumptions. But this one involves your moniker - and as such is not simply 'made up.'

I have over 3k hours in mmo pvp, various titles, with this moniker. Much of it is rated. Usually as a healer... with them all yelling "KILL GREEBO!"

I have parsed to within 200 dps of leaderboard dps in my class. Except for one little detail; I am full heals specced... and they are dps specced.

Also, I am used to getting several hate tells per day - their personality kinda reminds me of yours. They are peasants. Your ungreebly drooling doesn't bother me that much. In fact, I am quite used to it.

Catches_the_Sun

Warlordgreebo wrote: »

I would need thousands of hours in FARMING JUNK just to spend hundreds of hours RESEARCHING IT!

Or you could ask somebody that has already researched the trait to make you a level 1 iron version of the item for your researching purposes? Geez, this is a ridiculous overreaction to a non-issue.

Alpha_Protocol

@OP there are probably plenty of other MMO's that fit your needs. Thanks for stopping by.

Btw... not everyone agrees with or wants status quo mechanics/design...

Cheatingdeath23

I've skipped half of the posts in this thread, but I wanted to say that I think the researching traits is completely fair and balanced.

I'm level 20 (work full time, play a few hours a day) right now, but I have 4 traits researched in almost every heavy armor, sword, bow and shield. Some I have 5, some I have 3, but that is roughly where I'm at.

I like that it takes time because that delays the gratification and makes it more unusual when you have researched everything. I'm trying to research enough traits to get the higher end craft sets that need 6+... if you could just click a button and have it done, everyone would craft.

I really don't get why this is a big deal. I've traded with people, but I also stumble on enough traits to always have something being researched. I choose smartly about what to research first (6 hour trait versus 2 day trait) to lessen what I need in my bag. Sometimes I continue to wear bad armor with a unique trait because I will research it in the future.

Warlordgreebo

LadyInTheWater wrote: »

Warlordgreebo wrote: »

I would need thousands of hours in FARMING JUNK just to spend hundreds of hours RESEARCHING IT!!

The real progress ive got with this is by lowbie farming... just finding a way to kill thousands of gimp little things per hour... and go to my bank when full.

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

Or you could ask somebody that has already researched the trait to make you a level 1 iron version of the item for your researching purposes? Geez, this is a ridiculous overreaction to a non-issue.

Lupinemw wrote: »

With regards to drops: trade with people, its what I do within my own guild and if people need stuff in game i'm willing to help them as well...If you have some I'm missing we could be nice and swap.

Celless wrote: »

..And I've been able to meet others who have the trait that I want and offer them something to trade or pay them in most cases for that trait.

Phranq wrote: »

Did you even read my post ? All it takes is a friend or two that also crafts and you can TRADE traits.

LadyInTheWater wrote: »

If I want to research something specific, first I see if I have an item. If I don't, I check the guild store. If it's not there, I find someone to craft it for me. I have yet to run into any issues, and I certainly haven't felt like I'd need to spend thousands of hours farming junk.

[snip]

Actually Lady, I welcome all of the suggestions from people.

Anyone who was truly greebly and wise would be making notes as they make a real blacksmith Guide so that lost players might find their way.

[edited to remove quote]

Warlordgreebo

Cheatingdeath23 wrote: »

I've skipped half of the posts in this thread, but I wanted to say that I think the researching traits is completely fair and balanced.

I'm level 20 (work full time, play a few hours a day) right now, but I have 4 traits researched in almost every heavy armor, sword, bow and shield. Some I have 5, some I have 3, but that is roughly where I'm at.

I like that it takes time because that delays the gratification and makes it more unusual when you have researched everything. I'm trying to research enough traits to get the higher end craft sets that need 6+... if you could just click a button and have it done, everyone would craft.

I really don't get why this is a big deal. I've traded with people, but I also stumble on enough traits to always have something being researched. I choose smartly about what to research first (6 hour trait versus 2 day trait) to lessen what I need in my bag. Sometimes I continue to wear bad armor with a unique trait because I will research it in the future.

My experience is quite different.

I have it so i can research several things at once. But still barely have 1 trait per piece - I end up putting all researchable things in the bank with all my alts. I have over 50 hours worth of farming involved so far - MORE than I would expect any 'normal' mmo to require.

6 .5/10 as the game score.... I personally would rate it a little higher with the potential for near 10. The reviews from main street mmo gamers are going to come in; and they will not be as kind as I have been.