Would this game have been better with traditional classes ?

Bansheebott

No, it would be worse off. ESO wanted to do something different and that's reason enough regardless of the opinion on whether it actually makes players more distinct from another or not. Hell, they were probably required to do it this way since "Elder Scrolls game requires you to play certain characters in very specific ways" would cause gamer rage of apocalyptic proportions.

A freeform system works out best for everyone just because it gives everyone the option to play how they want to play. Do you feel ESO's Sorcerer class should be a traditional mage class and should only wear cloth and use staves? Then go ahead and play *your* sorcerers that way.

And really, the whole Stringent Vs Freeform thing doesn't even make sense to debate over when you think about it.

A Freeform system by its very nature lets you create any class that a stringent system would ideally have as a preset. So really, whats even the point? (That said, it would be nice if there were lots of different displayable titles to the title system that players could use to describe their skill set for other's convenience, like Crusader, Armsman, Conjurer, etc.)

However, a freeform system has one distinct advantage. Imagine you have a Templar character, and you're specced as a heavy armor warrior with some healing powers, but you're not enjoying frontline combat, and you'd rather focus more on your healing/Fire magic abilities. Instead of deleting your Paladin-esque character and creating another whole new character and doing all those quests again, you can just reallocate your skill points into healing abilities and start brushing up with that dusty restoration staff thats been sitting in your bank.

I like the idea of being able to change your style without starting a new character from scratch. Not only does it mean you don't necessarily have to re-do content you already had done in order to get back to the point your old character was at, but it's also just cool player story mechanic.

That Templar Fighter-to-Healer example I brought up? That's a backbone for a passable story for an actual character in the TES universe. A crusader, sick of fighting gives up his martial training to become a priest. and the coolest part about it was that's actually what the player did. Congratulations! You are role-playing in a Role-Playing Game and didn't even realize it!

alienbongs wrote: »

... you do realize that certain skills were off limits to certain classes, right? I'm amazed by how little the current player base ACTUALLY played previous ES titles, but that is neither here nor there.

Can't tell if troll or never played previous tes games. No skill/armor/weapon is off limits to any "class." A character with the Warrior "class" can become just as good at Alteration Magic as the "Mage" class, given enough time put into training. Likewise, that mage could learn to swing a claymore or wear heavy armor if s/he wanted to put in the time. And that's ignoring custom classes that let a character *start off* as an alteration wielding warrior, sword swinging mage, etc.

M.M.Fuchsb16_ESO

alienbongs wrote: »

I have to agree with the OP. Individual classes give me, personally, a greater sense of belonging in a larger group. Ironically, I feel as if my character is also more unique when I have a multitude of classes to pick from, than I do from an open skill tree system.

Also, whoever said that the classes in Morrowind and Oblivion were merely "guidelines"... you do realize that certain skills were off limits to certain classes, right? I'm amazed by how little the current player base ACTUALLY played previous ES titles, but that is neither here nor there.

I am wondering how little you actually played previous ES titles. There was no skill/skilline that was ever limited to any class. In NO Elder Scrolls game since Morrowind at least.(Havent played the TES1/2). I played Morrowind like no other game except maybe Baldurs Gate and i maxed almost all Skills, except for Blunt Weapon/Medium Armor. So how were you limited in those games?

AlexDougherty

alienbongs wrote: »

I have to agree with the OP. Individual classes give me, personally, a greater sense of belonging in a larger group. Ironically, I feel as if my character is also more unique when I have a multitude of classes to pick from, than I do from an open skill tree system.

Also, whoever said that the classes in Morrowind and Oblivion were merely "guidelines"... you do realize that certain skills were off limits to certain classes, right? I'm amazed by how little the current player base ACTUALLY played previous ES titles, but that is neither here nor there.

Can't speak for Morrowind, since I only played that for ten minutes, But Oblivion had no forbidden skills, everybody could learn everything. In fact to do all the guild quests you had to learn all the skills.

There was restrictions via race and star sign, ie if you didn't have Altmer with Apprentice star sign you couldn't cast the most powerful spells, because you would lack the magicka. (no other race and starsign combo worked as I recall)

I think you might be confusing games here a little bit.

Sleepwalker

alienbongs wrote: »

Also, whoever said that the classes in Morrowind and Oblivion were merely "guidelines"... you do realize that certain skills were off limits to certain classes, right? I'm amazed by how little the current player base ACTUALLY played previous ES titles, but that is neither here nor there.

Well, that came off as a little pretentious. ESO is the first in the series to be an MMO, so it shouldn't be shocking at all that there are many that are new to it. This addition to the demographic was predicted long before launch.

And which skills in Oblivion were off limits to certain classes? The racial and "sign" abilities were the only ones I remember that were decided at the start of the game and unavailable if their corresponding race or birth constellation wasn't selected.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

I did play oblivion and class didn't set skills as off limits

Race and birthsign did as they still do. The only advantages of class was to gain a doubled exp gain on those skill lines.

Skyrim didn't had class at all and played quite well especialy if you also had skyrim redone. I wish they just removal class from the game and gave access to all skill tree

Dekkameron

I also wish the opposite and not have classes at all.

Thevenin

I mean, take a look at Cyrodiil already.
There are already little more than 5 builds : the pulsar spamming / bolt escaping sorcerer, the Broken Talons / reflective scales / standard shield DK, the vampire DK/sorc spamming Mist or Bats, the healing templar and the sneaky nightblade either bow or daggers (some people are always going to play that even if it sucks as hell).

Sylveria_Relden

It's actually the one thing that I've disagreed with since they announced the "classes" for this game. I really, really (really) wish they had stuck with the original TES game skill layouts- and given people a choice as to "pre-made templates" they can start with, rather than pidgeon-holing people into a quasi-holy-trinity type role/class (caster/tank/dps) which are more awkward than anything. Can I adapt? Sure, and I have. But it still doesn't feel like TES skills to me. Everything else is great... except the skill layout. I really wish we could keybind more quickbar items, at least.

Sleepwalker

Why is this still so hard for some prior-ES players to understand? I played them all, but I still get it... This game is a product of introducing the ES universe into an MMO engine. It is not Daggerfall, it is not Morrowind, it is not Oblivion, and it is not Skyrim.

I'm not sure why anyone would think an MMO would steer away from the tank, healer, dps roles. Group dynamics in a game essentially can't exist without dedicated roles that must be filled for certain portions of the content.

Also, the single player games were exactly that; single player. Concepts like group PvE and PvP balance did not exist on them, so allowing limitless skill combinations was fine. That cannot work in an MMO; it's just too much to manage efficiently.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

Roles would still exist. Role are delimated by character style, a character focusing on healing mechanics stays a healer while a heavy armor with a shield generaly is a tank style. If I emphasis on a medium armored sneaker with a lot of damage its obvious ill end up with a DPS, same would for a mage. Classes are irelevent in the equation they are just options.

neidzwiedzub17_ESO

One thing I don't understand, several people here have said that a more ridgid class system helps them feel unique. When the game picks your abilities for you even if there are 12 classes with 5 trees each and all abilities usable all the time (CDs excepted), there are still going to be a heckuva lot of players out there exactly like you. If you can level any and every skill in the game or even if you are limited to a set number but you can pick and choose from all abilities the odds of someone else having your build are rare. That is closer to the definition of unique that as I understand it.

twistedmonk

No, they game was marketed on being able to play the way WE want to play.

and then they introduced four classes with unique skill lines. Zenimax made the choices. We didn't.

And PREDICTABLY you have class imbalances.

elder scrolls used to be about picking whatever skills you wanted and making a unique playstyle.

I wished they go back to the original spell lines and let us make our own playstyles again and get rid of the four classes altogether.

Elirienne

One of the best things about this game is that you can flex your class. This is by far the most realistic thing they can come up with. Just think about it - you might have an aptitude for magicka and generally are a mage type of character, but what kind of nonsense is this that you cannot wear heavy armour? (wow, and every other mmo...) Can't you still get physically strong? Can't you train to be muscular? What kind of nonsense is this that you cannot pick up two daggers to fight, only staves?

ESO solved this silly issue - you can be whatever you want to be. (but still, you cannot be everything at once - perfect!). So what if I am a sturdy strong knight, and want to try using a bow? I will be clumsy with it first, but then I will get better. And who are you to say I cannot wear lighter armour if I want to? In eSO, I can. Maybe I am not a mage, but if I spend enough time and effort with the mages guild, I might be able to pick up or be granted some magickal abilities which benefit me, despite the fact that I am a melee fighter. How awesome and realistic is that?

Don't ever change this.

mikeleg34_ESO

I've played all of the ES games and vividly recall buying Arena when it first dropped. The ONLY thing I wish, aside from more freedom from the 4 class system, is that Magick more closely resembled traditional ES games. I like the idea of using Fire/Ice/Electricity, as the need arose; over the ESO concept of coupling elements to Staves and loading up the Sorcerer with its present abilities. Bad idea.

Surinen

quite the opposite. they should completely obliterate class system or introduce skill line borrow system where you would be able to pick up other classes' skill line/lines. in current form game is a miserable parasite on TES legacy. if you do TES MMO then do TES MMO, not something that is a frankestein.

I like the idea of using Fire/Ice/Electricity, as the need arose; over the ESO concept of coupling elements to Staves and loading up the Sorcerer with its present abilities. Bad idea.

in-verymuch-deed

Thevenin

neidzwiedzub17_ESO wrote: »

One thing I don't understand, several people here have said that a more ridgid class system helps them feel unique. When the game picks your abilities for you even if there are 12 classes with 5 trees each and all abilities usable all the time (CDs excepted), there are still going to be a heckuva lot of players out there exactly like you. If you can level any and every skill in the game or even if you are limited to a set number but you can pick and choose from all abilities the odds of someone else having your build are rare. That is closer to the definition of unique that as I understand it.

Except that it never works that way, because it is impossible to balance a free open skills system such as the ESO one. It would mean that every single spell you can choose should be a rational good choice. Most players - even more in PvP - want immersion, diversity, flavour, etc. but not at the expense of performance
The problem with the open skills system is that it takes away penalties : game designers can no longer "force" a crappy spell in one field because they gave an excellent one in another.

Let's take the ESO example : if everyone could have access to every class ability, every single healer would have the same build. Templar heals / Siphoning attacks / Dark conversion / templar healing ulti. Nothing else would be a rational choice.
With the class system, the game designers were able to force penalties (only having the resto staff healing abilities, less effective in quite a lot of situations than the templar heals) on classes that had some really cool tools to regen their magicka (like Siphoning attacks and Dark conversion).

See the point I'm trying to make ?

Theron75

I've seen this type of system in MMOs before, and it usually ends up failing. The above poster is right...ultimately the open-ended system leads to too many game balance issues. Eventually an entire "new" combat system is introduced, and it always reverts back to the tried-and-true tank/heals/dps trio.

Syndrome of Incredibles said it best: When everyone is super, no one will be.

You should be forced to make a choice: If I pick Skill 1, I'm going to gain X, but lose Y. That is what defines class roles. In a system where everyone can do anything, the downsides are minimized.

Shuichi

No it would not have been

Sleepwalker

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »

Classes are irelevent in the equation they are just options.

This.

Let me try saying this from a different angle. Bear with me as I simplify some things:

So, being a DK makes you a fiery, melee beast with the option of being tank, dps, or healer if you'd like. Being a Sorc makes you an electricity-wielding, demon summoning destruction specialist with the option of being tank, dps, or healer if you'd like. Being a NB makes you a shadowy, life-stealing wraith with the option of being tank, dps, or healer. That diversity right there is brand new, folks. If any other game has tried it, they haven't been too successful in accomplishing it. ESO made it happen.

Your complaints are that, using the above examples only for now, you can't combine all skills and become a DK that's a fiery, demon-summoning, shadowy wraith? Are you seeing at all how much complexity that adds to maintaining balance for an MMO. Using the argument "Well, it is an ES game and you could do it in past ES games..." is just not good enough. I think I already explained that above, but let me reiterate:

Sleepwalker wrote: »

This game is a product of introducing the ES universe into an MMO engine. It is not Daggerfall, it is not Morrowind, it is not Oblivion, and it is not Skyrim.

LadyChaos

I think it be fine if the class lines would be open to all, if some wanted certain criteria to slot them, fine. You cant cast resto staff spells without the resto staff slotted... You can't open vamp/ww lines without being bitten maybe you can't cast Templar skills without questing the appropriate deadra line etc.. as long as it is lore appropriate and uniform I'm good with it. I would love some NB or DK skills as a sorcerer primary