Does anyone think crafting was purposely made difficult to max out to keep subscriptions?

glamorousskies

Hear me out, in a lot of mmo's if you are very skilled and play a "FAIR" amount you can get "maxed out" then you can just pvp, make a new char, craft, whatever.

However in eso, in order to technically make the BEST gear you need to have eight traits researched on each item you want. This would equate to approximately 64 traits.Traits can take up to 2 days to research MINUS the 15% bonus from the crafting ability to research quicker and a couple at a time. I saw some guy who calculated everything and said it would take 51 days to get a maxed set. This is also assuming you log in and have every item available for the traits. This is because the BEST SET GEAR in eso requires eight traits to be crafted.

Why so long? You can't avoid that 51 days. You HAVE to do that at a minimum. Being good enough at pvp won't work. Being a skilled player and killing that boss won't work. You gotta keep a sub for at least two months to max out.

I noticed eso's subs were lower then they expected( i love the game, but it's true). I feel like this is a VERY subtle thing they did on their part to keep people playing. Frankly after 51 days of killing the same mobs and buying and doing the same thing to get the best gear i would absolutely get bored. For sure.

Opinions?

Brennan

You think they designed the game to maximize subs and therefore maximize profits?

How very interesting.

glamorousskies

Brennan wrote: »

You think they designed the game to maximize subs and therefore maximize profits?

How very interesting.

Your response is either mocking and condescending, or what..? I mean i think that's a stupid way to gimp people who want to max out. "because we might not get as many expected subs, we are going to make crafting times ridiculous. Nobody wins"

JessieColt

Short answer, no.

Long answer: Crafting is wonderful in ESO. I absolutely love that you cannot max crafting in 2 days.

Crafting is a sacrifice in order to learn more. You have to willfully destroy an item in order to learn its traits. And it takes time. Lots of time.

I actually wish it took even longer than it does. Crafting is an art, and if everyone was able to max their crafting in a short period of time it would devalue the items that are made.

mercenaryaieb17_ESO

I agree that being unable to max out crafting in a week is GREAT.
It always felt wrong in certain MMOs where you could become a top crafter just by investing pile of gold and then spending an hour near craft station.
Research times encourage specialization and test crafter's dedication.

On a side note, I have EVE Online background, so waiting few weeks isn't that big of a deal anyway

Brennan

glamorousskies wrote: »

Brennan wrote: »

You think they designed the game to maximize subs and therefore maximize profits?

How very interesting.

Your response is either mocking and condescending, or what..? I mean i think that's a stupid way to gimp people who want to max out. "because we might not get as many expected subs, we are going to make crafting times ridiculous. Nobody wins"

It was mocking and condescending.

Brennan

mercenaryaieb17_ESO wrote: »

On a side note, I have EVE Online background, so waiting few weeks isn't that big of a deal anyway

A month to train Caldari Battleship to V? No problem!

ben61704

Where is it that you noticed their subs are lower than expected? Link please.

metalgold

What about knowing you accomplished something really tough? OP I hear ya, but I don't think this is all a BAD thing. This is not your vanilla MMO that much is for sure. Making characters that work well is a skill in itself in this game. In other MMO's you make a Hunter, or a Warlock, or a Pally and there is a certain way you play it or your a n00b. In this, its totally different. A spellcaster that wears heavy armor and wields a two handed blade...sure! A Templar with a bow and medium armor...sure!! Gear progression is as varied as are classes, and to research EVERYTHING requires determination and diligence. I like that. Now people that put in the time can have similar rewards to someone who happens to be on at premium raid times or knows someone in the right guild. There is a cost for anything...I'll pay a little time here and there for what I want instead of having to be put "on the clock" for it...

dennissomb16_ESO

Of course it was partially designed to keep subscriptions going (as all parts of the game are) but mostly because it is more immersive then most other MMOs. This game has the best crafting design since star wars galaxies. Crafting actually means something in this game and unlike all the other MMOs the crafted item is worth more then the mats

maxing out crafting in a week would mean the gold sellers/bots would dominate and finished crafting items would be worthless and mats would be the main crafting product. The crafting is not hard in this game, but you actually have to play the game

SexyVette07

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

Of course it was partially designed to keep subscriptions going (as all parts of the game are) but mostly because it is more immersive then most other MMOs. This game has the best crafting design since star wars galaxies. Crafting actually means something in this game and unlike all the other MMOs the crafted item is worth more then the mats

Are we playing the same game? Last I checked, blues were going for sub 200g and purples for mostly sub 1k. Try making either of those items in that price range and try making a profit.

Estwing

I don't think crafting is difficult, at least not all of the crafting skill lines. The only one I have across that takes time beyond your normal leveling is enchanting. My advice is to find a buddy and swap making items for each other to deconstruct. This is a MMO and you will need to rely on others for some help.

dennissomb16_ESO

SexyVette07 wrote: »

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

Of course it was partially designed to keep subscriptions going (as all parts of the game are) but mostly because it is more immersive then most other MMOs. This game has the best crafting design since star wars galaxies. Crafting actually means something in this game and unlike all the other MMOs the crafted item is worth more then the mats

Are we playing the same game? Last I checked, blues were going for sub 200g and purples for mostly sub 1k. Try making either of those items in that price range and try making a profit.

Fair enough. I have not seen end game pricing (still slowly working my way through the game) but a crafted item (example blue level 34 sword) has slightly better base stats then a dropped equivalent. Now go to end game legendary gear, and the min/maxers will always pay for that little extra. As far as costs, well crafted gear costs me nothing so far as I make it all from my own mats, so pure profit if I sell something (all goes to guildies at the moment) Still happier with this crafting system over others I have tried in the last 10 years

DragonMagus

This isn't a single player game dude. Nor super mario/bomberman/pacman/duckhunt bla bla. Crafting in all mmorpgs is supposed to be hard ,as is questing for some/most players depending on the games examples.LOL.And + 1 to dennis,it gets you profit in gold if you craft + you keep yourself and customers happy and efficient ( well,gear-wise,you cant help them much with skills/how they gameplay/teamplay etc, or not all of them anyway,too much time wasted,maybe they add menthoring system like Everquest 2 & other mmorpgs xD )

Alephen

this is the most non-mmo i have played, for good and for bad. you can the vast majority of the game solo and even most group content can be soloed besides groups of players. the best gear is crafted with items delivered in the mail. the economy is designed to make it a pita to trade through the mechanics (guild store) it really has more of a coop mode imo. get a good group of friends and you will have alot of fun. personally, i have 2 crafters each type to halve the research time - so there are other options as well.

there is no skill to crafting, just time. level to 50 to get high inspiration stuff to craft, and start researching. get hirelings to get the upgrade items to make the best in game stuff.

(what i mean by no skill to crafting: in many mmos you need some crafting stats and how they effect the crafts so make sure they are alloted correctly. creafting in many mmos is almost as compplex as adventuring, and the player needs to invest a similar amount of time to be a good crafter. in this game crafting level is irrelevant except to unlock abilities. adventuring level, not crafting level determines deconstruction resource gain. also, once you learn the basics of crafting, you are as good a crafter as someone who crafts more than they adventure - more cheaply if you are higher adventuring level since you can get resources more cheaply through deconning.)

Beryl

glamorousskies wrote: »

...

However in eso, in order to technically make the BEST gear you need to have eight traits researched on each item you want. This would equate to approximately 64 traits.Traits can take up to 2 days to research MINUS the 15% bonus from the crafting ability to research quicker and a couple at a time. I saw some guy who calculated everything and said it would take 51 days to get a maxed set. This is also assuming you log in and have every item available for the traits. This is because the BEST SET GEAR in eso requires eight traits to be crafted.

....

Opinions?

You need 8 traits only if you want the crafted sets. Not everyone wants them, so it is not exactly the only best gear. You can just research one favourite trait (6 hours) and make the item with best stats ever. It will even have an advantage - not bound. Items from crafted sets are all bound on equip and you can't sell them if you don't like them anymore.

Traits take up to 32 days to research, not 2 days as you mentioned. The reduction on this timer is 20%, not 15%. It does take 51 day to research all traits for one single item, but you can have up to 3 items researched at once and you need 5 items to have those toughest sets. If you want all of your set to be the same heavy armour (for example) you either need up to 102 days to research that all or you have to work in agreement with other crafters: one researches helms, another gloves and so on. I believe that there are crafting guilds which are working in that direction already.

Now about my opinion: for an MMO it is perfect. Long term time sinks must exist and must be rewarded. These few crafted sets is about the only thing which not everyone will be able to do. Other professions have no real time requirement and they can be leveled very fast. Crafting timers are not enough to force players to pay for the subscription. And crafting timers will allow at least some profit for crafters... maybe... a small one... (make only white set items because everyone can improve it to any quality he wants). The research time is one of the few things I actually like about the crafting here.

dw0011nrb19_ESO

Yes, of course it is. Why would one else implement such long research times? To stretch the time people spend in the game. When there is no content, you do this. And yes, it is disgusting.

Charwyn

Ehm, so, you want the crafting system that takes a week to max, right?
This is freakign stupid.

Here is the system for people who WANT to craft, who WANT it maxed and who WANT to make profits of it.

Compared to the other games - it's like giving "Moongoose"-enchant to every enchanter out there at skill lvl 100 (back in the day, ofc) or an ability to fly a Carrier ship to two-month old character.

Crafting researches are not a must. You need them only to craft top-quality sets yourself and to have a variety of option for your clients.

If you don't like the timers - go play the game the way you like and buy off those sets on guild store and such if you want.
Period.

killedbyping

What is the meaning of this bullsh*** ?
This is MMO RPG game. The whole meaning of such games is to hold subscription.
You basicaly make some things harder or contiously add new content in order for players to have something to do.
Having a posibility to max all the crafts at the same time and still have enought points to max several different battle lanes is too much already.
If players would be able to max all of this in few days this wouldnt be interesting for most of the players.
I wonder why you actualy can craft anything you want since start and dont have to find some realy epic recipes to create really nice stuffs.

Rpalmer2

I am more than happy with the time it takes to learn the traits. It means that you need to plan out which traits you want for your gear and go for those. It reminds me alot of SWG (all be it not as in depth with material grade). I would rather have this than everyone and their mother having Blacksmithing or woodworking or w.e profession they choose to be at lvl 50.

It would make gear useless and crafters even less useful. If they changed it would be like WoW. Everyone can pay gold and max a profession in an hour and trivialize the gear that is made.

I'm more than fine with what they have in place and I hope they do not change it.

Qadir

This is the problem that comes from developing a well-rounded and complex crafting system, and then making it available to any class. The combat players will whine about not being able to be the best crafters, and the dedicated crafters will whine about everyone and their mother being able to do what they do. Both are right, from their perspective.

To offer a crafter's response to this... No. You want the best set of gear in the game? Find a crafter who's invested their time and energy into being able to make it for the public, and buy it from them. Just because the game theoretically lets you be a PvE/PvP god -and- a crafter as well, doesn't mean you should be as good at both. The research timers are one of the few things that separate crafters from combatants and if anything we need more separation, not less.

To offer a combatant's response to this... No. Do you want everyone and their mother wearing the same "best" set in the game? Are you really looking to lose your edge in PvP just because you're too cheap to buy what you need from one of those sad crafting monkeys who spend their in-game time researching and crafting instead of enjoying the game like we do? Think about it.

Diakos

glamorousskies wrote: »

Brennan wrote: »

You think they designed the game to maximize subs and therefore maximize profits?

How very interesting.

Your response is either mocking and condescending, or what..? I mean i think that's a stupid way to gimp people who want to max out. "because we might not get as many expected subs, we are going to make crafting times ridiculous. Nobody wins"

Would you prefer being limited to 2 crafts and forced to ignore 90% of world nodes on a give character?

There's 4 classes, 3 factions and 10 races.

No matter what you do your main will never be able to to everything, so have fun with an alt and be glad skills and researches do not have the up to 90 day training periods EVE Online has.

Akbar

glamorousskies wrote: »

I noticed eso's subs were lower then they expected( i love the game, but it's true). I feel like this is a VERY subtle thing they did on their part to keep people playing. Frankly after 51 days of killing the same mobs and buying and doing the same thing to get the best gear i would absolutely get bored. For sure.

Opinions?

I could not disagree with you more.

The fantasy-based MMO game format was created for customer longevity by offering robust environments, quality story lines, balanced game mechanics and yes time sinks. The leveling system component would be meaningless if it didn't require effort on the part of the player.

So many MMOs fade away and/or become free-to-play in a matter of months because they spoon-fed whiny players end game content that only want to PVP with maxed characters. Thankfully ESO had enough sense to make something different.

TL;DL- Elder Scrolls is not Call of Duty with Swords.

glamorousskies

I see what other player's are saying here(this is OP btw) but i still disagree. I love this game but i am EXTREMELY frustrated with this system. I mean i just saw another players comment saying it would actually take at least a hundred and something days minimum. This is riduculous. How can you even be good at crafting in this system? You literally just sit around and wait. Gathering more won't matter! You can't make anything else once you fill up all the research slots. (assuming you have the perk to make 3)

I mean i understand the whole "yeah it'd be dumb if you could do it in like a week." but i feel like if you play enough you should be able to just keep crafting and make the max gear. FOR EXAMPLE:

Let's say i played ALOT and was good and worked hard, i also had a good system to gather resources( i had a good circuit i ran at max level) now i do this nonstop. Everyday most of the time.

After a week (or two) of me being GOOD plus working non-stop i CAN max out. That doesn't mean it's over. still SO much i could do, and they could come out with new items, and content as well.

What i'm saying is. You are forced to wait, some people see this as (oh it shows dedication yada yada yada) i see it as... Wow this is dumb, i literally have to wait months at a time and there is nothing i can do to be "better". How cool is that.

How can no one logically see my point? I mean if you literally are perfectly CONTENT with not being able to advance / max your crafting for days at a time, then PROPS to you. I strongly strongly dislike it and agree it was used to keep more subs and targets alot of the hardcore group. All the "hey i got max gear bruh i'm eso hardcore i know all the lore" those people.

SadisticSavior

glamorousskies wrote: »

Hear me out, in a lot of mmo's if you are very skilled and play a "FAIR" amount you can get "maxed out" then you can just pvp, make a new char, craft, whatever.

However in eso, in order to technically make the BEST gear you need to have eight traits researched on each item you want. This would equate to approximately 64 traits.Traits can take up to 2 days to research MINUS the 15% bonus from the crafting ability to research quicker and a couple at a time. I saw some guy who calculated everything and said it would take 51 days to get a maxed set. This is also assuming you log in and have every item available for the traits. This is because the BEST SET GEAR in eso requires eight traits to be crafted.

Why so long?

To give it depth.

Doing it this way means that crafting will mean something, and it means that there is no way to powerlevel or twink your way to the top.

Which also means that crafters will have value, because they cannot be made artificially. Everyone will have to do it the hard way. A maxed out crafter will be unusual (or even rare) and will therefore have services that are actually in demand.

Anyone can use the gear these crafters can make. You do not have to be a crafter to use it. You only need to be a crafter to make it. So if all you want is the gear, just get the gold instead, and you don't need to invest any time into crafting.

SadisticSavior

glamorousskies wrote: »

I see what other player's are saying here(this is OP btw) but i still disagree. I love this game but i am EXTREMELY frustrated with this system. I mean i just saw another players comment saying it would actually take at least a hundred and something days minimum. This is riduculous. How can you even be good at crafting in this system? You literally just sit around and wait.

Most people are not just crafting. Your argument only applies if you do not want to level via PvE or PvP. If you just want to sit around and advance in crafting, yeah, you're gonna be frustrated. The idea is that you are going other stuff in addition to crafting.

But this was never marketed as a crafting simulator...the crafting aspect is in addition to the PvE game, not in place of it. I know that sounds sarcastic, but I don't mean it to be...it's just the literal truth.

glamorousskies wrote: »

I mean i understand the whole "yeah it'd be dumb if you could do it in like a week." but i feel like if you play enough you should be able to just keep crafting and make the max gear.

The problem with that is that people abuse it, and you get players running around with Legendary gear a week after launch.

This system completely undermines gold sellers and powerlevellers. Which I personally LOVE. The system is not in place to annoy you or to squeeze money out of you. It serves a real function.

That being said, IMO it will be a full time job levelling ALL crafting professions at the same time. I personally am having a hard time juggling just 3 of them. So you could spend a lot of time just crafting if you do it with all professions at once.

glamorousskies wrote: »

How can no one logically see my point?

We do see your point. We just don't agree with it.

Laura

I think it was done to keep crafting relevant.... If you could make EVERYTHING yourself easy then - why would you ever have to seek out other crafters? seems like a no brainer to me

glamorousskies

Laura wrote: »

I think it was done to keep crafting relevant.... If you could make EVERYTHING yourself easy then - why would you ever have to seek out other crafters? seems like a no brainer to me

it is easy to stay on your computer all day and just wait for traits to be researched. it is just as hard to play all day and keep getting mats to max out crafting.

This system punishes players that play alot a day. You can play 24/7 and i can play one hour a day. Our crafting results will be the same= not fair. make sense?

glamorousskies

SadisticSavior wrote: »

glamorousskies wrote: »

I see what other player's are saying here(this is OP btw) but i still disagree. I love this game but i am EXTREMELY frustrated with this system. I mean i just saw another players comment saying it would actually take at least a hundred and something days minimum. This is riduculous. How can you even be good at crafting in this system? You literally just sit around and wait.

Most people are not just crafting. Your argument only applies if you do not want to level via PvE or PvP. If you just want to sit around and advance in crafting, yeah, you're gonna be frustrated. The idea is that you are going other stuff in addition to crafting.

But this was never marketed as a crafting simulator...the crafting aspect is in addition to the PvE game, not in place of it. I know that sounds sarcastic, but I don't mean it to be...it's just the literal truth.

glamorousskies wrote: »

I mean i understand the whole "yeah it'd be dumb if you could do it in like a week." but i feel like if you play enough you should be able to just keep crafting and make the max gear.

The problem with that is that people abuse it, and you get players running around with Legendary gear a week after launch.

This system completely undermines gold sellers and powerlevellers. Which I personally LOVE. The system is not in place to annoy you or to squeeze money out of you. It serves a real function.

That being said, IMO it will be a full time job levelling ALL crafting professions at the same time. I personally am having a hard time juggling just 3 of them. So you could spend a lot of time just crafting if you do it with all professions at once.

glamorousskies wrote: »

How can no one logically see my point?

We do see your point. We just don't agree with it.

So you think it's okay to take about 100 days(assuming you play every day and log in and have all the armors with traits available for research) non stop, to be able to max crafting? (this is according to what another player posted in here saying it would actually take longer. I for one, do not agree with it taking 100 days and theres nothing you can do about it to get max gear. That is insane. I mean yeah hard work. But no, i would geniunely make fun of people for trying that hard if they have max gear.

SadisticSavior

glamorousskies wrote: »

This system punishes players that play alot a day. You can play 24/7 and i can play one hour a day. Our crafting results will be the same= not fair. make sense?

How is that punishing you? What are you losing?

You can do other stuff besides researching. Gathering materials, PvE, PvP, or all of the above. If you do that, you will be way ahead of the player who logs in for an hour a day.

"Researching" only allows you to get access to traits...it does not significantly advance your profession. You will not be crafting level 50 items if all you do is research.

glamorousskies

SadisticSavior wrote: »

glamorousskies wrote: »

This system punishes players that play alot a day. You can play 24/7 and i can play one hour a day. Our crafting results will be the same= not fair. make sense?

How is that punishing you? What are you losing?

You can do other stuff besides researching. Gathering materials, PvE, PvP, or all of the above. If you do that, you will be way ahead of the player who logs in for an hour a day.

"Researching" only allows you to get access to traits...it does not significantly advance your profession. You will not be crafting level 50 items if all you do is research.

incorrect. Let's say you and me are both level 50, or veteran rank. We have similar gear. I log in for an hour a day and research my traits for my gear, you're pvping, pveing, all this stuff. After those two months are up, we will be in the same spot, both have the same maxed gear. You just might have a little more pvp experience. Or you might have a ton of iron ingots? Either way, same place more or less.