Nerf Oakfather's

darvaria · October 29

This literally destroys one bar builds. Even major gallop will add pene. This set is completely stupid. It will do nothing but create armor and health builds and players standing in forts with that siege set on. NO ONE will go out and fight with this in game.

darvaria · October 29

delete

StihlReign · October 29

Oakfather's Retribution

(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) Gain 449 Offensive Penetration against enemies for each Major Buff they have active. Gain 20 Weapon and Spell Damage against enemies for each Minor Buff they have active.

Shattered Fate

(5 items) Adds 7918 Offensive Penetration
(10 items) Adds 687 Weapon and Spell Damage
(12 items) Adds 1528 Critical Chance

...looks about right. What's wrong with Oakfather's?

Arunei · October 29

StihlReign wrote: »

Oakfather's Retribution

(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) Gain 449 Offensive Penetration against enemies for each Major Buff they have active. Gain 20 Weapon and Spell Damage against enemies for each Minor Buff they have active.

Shattered Fate

(5 items) Adds 7918 Offensive Penetration
(10 items) Adds 687 Weapon and Spell Damage
(12 items) Adds 1528 Critical Chance

...looks about right. What's wrong with Oakfather's?

The fact that the second set doesn't get stronger thanks to literally any and all buffs on foes in PvP, probably. Also the fact that the first set doesn't force you to wear 12 pieces of it to get the full set bonus, leaving you able to have a Mythic, a Monster piece, and another whole set.

ArchMikem · October 29

I think OP is mistakened by the wording. The person wearing the set gets Penetration per each Major Buff the enemy player has active, not the set wearer.

Unless the description actually means just the set wearer, then that would be weird.

SkaraMinoc · October 29

Have you done the math? In the best possible scenario, Oakfather is only marginally better than Shattered Fate and that's only for abilities with large coefficients (Dawnbreaker, Frags, Merciless, etc). In almost all cases, Shattered Fate is more damage.

coop500 · October 29

ArchMikem wrote: »

I think OP is mistakened by the wording. The person wearing the set gets Penetration per each Major Buff the enemy player has active, not the set wearer.

Unless the description actually means just the set wearer, then that would be weird.

No that's what the OP is upset about.
One bar builds using oakensoul have tons of minor and major buffs and anyone attacking them with this set will (theoretically) get crazy damage and they can't do anything except unequip Oakensoul (or anything else that gives extra buffs. hence the call of Major Gallop)

I don't care either way as I don't seriously PvP and I haven't done the math yet but I can understand the concern if it is as bad as it seems.

StihlReign · October 29

Oakensoul Ring

(1 item) While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Minor Berserk, Minor Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Minor Force, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis, and Empower.

Renato90085 · October 29

ArchMikem wrote: »

I think OP is mistakened by the wording. The person wearing the set gets Penetration per each Major Buff the enemy player has active, not the set wearer.

Unless the description actually means just the set wearer, then that would be weird.

I see someone say this set have bug,check your and enemy buff so run this can easy full pen
But I never test

darvaria · October 29

delete

virtus753 · October 29

Has anyone actually tested this with Major Gallop, or is this an assumption based on the tooltip?

Keep in mind that in-game tooltips aren't always 100% thorough in their explanations. Null Arca procs off doing critical damage, but critical damage done by proc sets doesn't count. Reaving Blows does not return heals on damage done by either set procs or passive procs (e.g. Burning Light).

If Major Gallop on the target is providing the Oakfather's user a buff, I would report it as a bug. The devs can clearly make exceptions, and this would be a good candidate.

Theignson · October 29

I tried this set when it first came out, it was not noticeably any better than shattered fate, probably worse. It was nothing special. However, I think you are right, it would be effective against someone wearing oakensoul

darvaria · October 29

delete

Arunei · October 29

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Have you done the math? In the best possible scenario, Oakfather is only marginally better than Shattered Fate and that's only for abilities with large coefficients (Dawnbreaker, Frags, Merciless, etc). In almost all cases, Shattered Fate is more damage.

Are we considering the fact that it sounds like this set will stack from multiple enemies, since it doesn't specifiy only targets you're directly doing damage to? In full battles for keeps or against ball groups or any big conflict on the map, you're going to be facing a lot of people with likely a number of buffs. Plus Oakensoul exists and gives its wearer like...almost every Major and Minor Buff in the game. You get a few Oakensoul wearers in a big group, that damage can easily ramp up.

I did some math. It only takes 17 Major Buffs for this new set to match the 5 piece bonus of the second (tho honestly...I can never remember if sets are additive or multiplactive so it could be more or less). We're not even including the increase from Minor Buffs, which is kinda peanuts compared to the main boost but it's still something. People buffing themselves and others means only a handful of people are needed to get close to that number of needed Buffs.

The Shattered set would definitely be better for smaller fights where there wouldn't be enough people with enough buffs to get close to that 5 piece bonus. But in bigger fights with a lot of people, the new set would be better.

Now if it doesn't calculate your damage based on enemies you aren't actively fighting, that's a different matter. I know the set doesn't say "enemies with these buffs in a radius give you these boosts" but it also just says "against enemies that have these buffs" which really makes it sound like enemies within a radius without saying it. I could be wrong tho, as I haven't kept up on sets in...idk maybe around a year, so I'm not familiar with any sorts of changes in phrasing that might have come about since then.

Necrotech_Master · October 29

oakensoul has 11 minor buffs = 220 increased dmg for oakfather
it has 5 major buffs, which amounts to about 2245 penetration for oakfather

5 pc of shattered fate has about 4x as much pen as this still

dmg wise oakfather would have a total gain of 607 dmg (220 from the 11 minor buffs in oakensoul, and 387 from the 2-4 piece set bonuses)

virtus753 · October 29

Arunei wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Have you done the math? In the best possible scenario, Oakfather is only marginally better than Shattered Fate and that's only for abilities with large coefficients (Dawnbreaker, Frags, Merciless, etc). In almost all cases, Shattered Fate is more damage.

Are we considering the fact that it sounds like this set will stack from multiple enemies, since it doesn't specifiy only targets you're directly doing damage to? In full battles for keeps or against ball groups or any big conflict on the map, you're going to be facing a lot of people with likely a number of buffs. Plus Oakensoul exists and gives its wearer like...almost every Major and Minor Buff in the game. You get a few Oakensoul wearers in a big group, that damage can easily ramp up.

I did some math. It only takes 17 Major Buffs for this new set to match the 5 piece bonus of the second (tho honestly...I can never remember if sets are additive or multiplactive so it could be more or less). We're not even including the increase from Minor Buffs, which is kinda peanuts compared to the main boost but it's still something. People buffing themselves and others means only a handful of people are needed to get close to that number of needed Buffs.

The Shattered set would definitely be better for smaller fights where there wouldn't be enough people with enough buffs to get close to that 5 piece bonus. But in bigger fights with a lot of people, the new set would be better.

Now if it doesn't calculate your damage based on enemies you aren't actively fighting, that's a different matter. I know the set doesn't say "enemies with these buffs in a radius give you these boosts" but it also just says "against enemies that have these buffs" which really makes it sound like enemies within a radius without saying it. I could be wrong tho, as I haven't kept up on sets in...idk maybe around a year, so I'm not familiar with any sorts of changes in phrasing that might have come about since then.

It reads like it's programmed like Force of Nature, which is calculated like a debuff on the target on an individual basis. If I'm fighting 3 enemies with 2 status effects each, I don't get 6x FoN pen on my character sheet. Each target gets 2x stacks of pen debuff against my attacks (and the attacks of anyone else with FoN slotted).

darvaria · October 29

Yeah, no idea what those numbers on my combat log were from. I've heard that thing bugs out sometimes.

endorphinsplox · October 29

Why would Oakfather's be a problem and Balorgh not? Or Onslaught? Or Corrosive Armor? You might need to familiarize yourself with more of the game before you make a forum post about something.

ArchMikem · November 1

coop500 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

I think OP is mistakened by the wording. The person wearing the set gets Penetration per each Major Buff the enemy player has active, not the set wearer.

Unless the description actually means just the set wearer, then that would be weird.

No that's what the OP is upset about.
One bar builds using oakensoul have tons of minor and major buffs and anyone attacking them with this set will (theoretically) get crazy damage and they can't do anything except unequip Oakensoul (or anything else that gives extra buffs. hence the call of Major Gallop)

I don't care either way as I don't seriously PvP and I haven't done the math yet but I can understand the concern if it is as bad as it seems.

Sounds like a counter then, instead of something to nerf. When Oakensoul was introduced PvP had the same outcry when One Bar Sorcs started melting people by just holding down Heavy Attacks.

BahometZ · November 1

Why? Why would someone come to the forums and demand a nerf for something that you can only speculate might have been the thing that almost killed you once?? GOOD. GRIEF.

Aggrovious · November 1

NERF THIS BECAUSE I DIED TO IT!

Urzigurumash · November 1

I think the set is balanced and I've been wearing it on one toon since it came out. Trying it on various toons I see it about equals Class Thematic damage sets, like Frostbite on MagDen, etc.

BUT OP has a great point. Major Gallop should be excepted, otherwise BGs players should remove points in Continuous Attack.

Right?

darvaria · November 1

I wanted to remove my original post but couldn't. I had some sort of malfunction with combat metrics that showed ridiculous damage and something like 50K spell pen. BUT I didn't die but almost did. I only look at these numbers on death recap or near death on combat metrics. No idea where those numbers came from. But I haven't even seen another Oakfather's to compare.

Shouldn't have reacted but I didn't know that combat logs sometimes squirrel out.

virtus753 · November 2

darvaria wrote: »

I wanted to remove my original post but couldn't. I had some sort of malfunction with combat metrics that showed ridiculous damage and something like 50K spell pen. BUT I didn't die but almost did. I only look at these numbers on death recap or near death on combat metrics. No idea where those numbers came from. But I haven't even seen another Oakfather's to compare.

Shouldn't have reacted but I didn't know that combat logs sometimes squirrel out.

Thanks for the update.

FWIW, I'm glad you raised the issue of Major Gallop.

This set does seem to benefit from Major Gallop, as far as I can see in testing. Major Gallop doesn't provide an advantage in combat, as you can't engage in combat while mounted. (At best you use it to run to or away from combat, not to engage in it.) ZOS put permanent Major Gallop within easy reach with Continuous Attack, but that means players are effectively being penalized for investing a skill point or two, unlike other buffs. When you wear Oakensoul or use other sets or skills that provide buffs, you can change your build any time outside of combat if you find that Oakfather's is doing more damage than you want. Removing Continuous Attack requires removing a skill point or two, meaning 1) access to a shrine or Armory is effectively required (I'm not entertaining the notion that players keep skill respec scrolls on them as a viable solution) and 2) dumping Continuous Attack removes the other benefits of that skill. That means that Oakfather's is penalizing players for benefitting from a non-combat buff and for having combat-related buffs that aren't in the Major/Minor system merely because they accompany Major Gallop.

I submitted a report in game requesting they change this, as I believe it's a poor design and I don't think it fits within the intention or budget of Oakfather's.

Artim_X · November 2

The set is fine, no nerf needed.

xylena_lazarow · November 2

It's been in the game for a while now hasn't broken anything because it looks better on paper than it plays.

StihlReign · November 2

hmm...this is beginning to sound like a bug.

Necrotech_Master · November 4

virtus753 wrote: »

darvaria wrote: »

I wanted to remove my original post but couldn't. I had some sort of malfunction with combat metrics that showed ridiculous damage and something like 50K spell pen. BUT I didn't die but almost did. I only look at these numbers on death recap or near death on combat metrics. No idea where those numbers came from. But I haven't even seen another Oakfather's to compare.

Shouldn't have reacted but I didn't know that combat logs sometimes squirrel out.

Thanks for the update.

FWIW, I'm glad you raised the issue of Major Gallop.

This set does seem to benefit from Major Gallop, as far as I can see in testing. Major Gallop doesn't provide an advantage in combat, as you can't engage in combat while mounted. (At best you use it to run to or away from combat, not to engage in it.) ZOS put permanent Major Gallop within easy reach with Continuous Attack, but that means players are effectively being penalized for investing a skill point or two, unlike other buffs. When you wear Oakensoul or use other sets or skills that provide buffs, you can change your build any time outside of combat if you find that Oakfather's is doing more damage than you want. Removing Continuous Attack requires removing a skill point or two, meaning 1) access to a shrine or Armory is effectively required (I'm not entertaining the notion that players keep skill respec scrolls on them as a viable solution) and 2) dumping Continuous Attack removes the other benefits of that skill. That means that Oakfather's is penalizing players for benefitting from a non-combat buff and for having combat-related buffs that aren't in the Major/Minor system merely because they accompany Major Gallop.

I submitted a report in game requesting they change this, as I believe it's a poor design and I don't think it fits within the intention or budget of Oakfather's.

i dont think 1 major buff is making that much of a difference, for oakfather thats increasing pen by a whole 450 pen

thats slightly more than 50% than what you get passively all the time from CP anyway

oakensoul makes a much larger noticeable buff for oakfather

Oblivion_Protocol · November 4

We have gotten to the point where we are demanding nerfs for a single set that does slightly more damage against people wearing one specific Mythic. I can literally count the number of Oakensoul users I see in PvP in a week on one hand.

Things that actually need to be adjusted in this game take forever for the devs to notice. I feel as though part of the reason for that is stuff like this constantly comes across their desk and they take us a little less seriously because of it.

Skoomah · November 4

darvaria wrote: »

This literally destroys one bar builds. Even major gallop will add pene. This set is completely stupid. It will do nothing but create armor and health builds and players standing in forts with that siege set on. NO ONE will go out and fight with this in game.

Calm down. It’s these kind of uninformed threads that get stuff nerfed over and over again. Go take your anything that tickles me threads elsewhere.

Necrotech_Master · November 4

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

We have gotten to the point where we are demanding nerfs for a single set that does slightly more damage against people wearing one specific Mythic. I can literally count the number of Oakensoul users I see in PvP in a week on one hand.

Things that actually need to be adjusted in this game take forever for the devs to notice. I feel as though part of the reason for that is stuff like this constantly comes across their desk and they take us a little less seriously because of it.

i think the thread is more complaining about how the set gives a very slight bonus against a permanent passive (major gallop), which could be seen as an issue

but against 1 single major buff the bonus this set grants is so minor its hardly worth worrying about