Major Updates Are Increasingly Out of Touch with Player Feedback

RomanRex · October 21

Player on Forum: I have this great idea that would really improve the game.
Other Players on Forum: That is a great idea! We agree.
Community Manager: Great idea! We are going to pass this along to the appropriate team. Thanks!

***no follow up from the appropriate team or community manager before new update***

Community Manager: Welcome to Update XX! We are super excited to introduce a new currency for you to grind and collect, new RNG drops that will leave you frustrated and a new overpowered set/mythic/feature that is required if you want to be competitive. You’ll be playing for hours and hours in this repetitive content! We will rebalance the new overpowered item once the DLC rolls over into ESO+ and isn’t being sold for cash anymore.”
Players on Forums: Wut? No one asked for or wanted this.

^^What it feels like to me being on forums and then seeing new updates roll out.^^

Taril · October 21

Almost like game development is a business that isn't about making a good product, but making a product that provides maximum revenue.

The_Meathead · October 21

Honestly, since about U35 I've felt that the decision making has been strongly out of sync with player wants and feedback.

It's gotten worse, not better, and frankly it's almost startling how disconnected it seems from PTS, player feedback, and forum discussions.

I certainly don't expect them to jump on every little thing the Forums manage a semi-consensus on, but things like Jabs, Flurry, Grim Focus' permaglow and stuff like that has been so near-universally deadpanned by players that it's shocking to see it so ignored. Equally or maybe even more disturbing when the PTS posters give staggeringly detailed and logical reasons an incoming Set or Ability change shouldn't happen... but then ZOS plows on through with it, only to over-nerf it a year later instead.

The story becoming more "family friendly" and further from the Elder Scrolls "feel" is also very problematic to me.

I still love ESO and enjoy the game tremendously or I wouldn't be here, but if I'm being very honest that enjoyment comes in spite of decisions made at U35 and after, rather than because of them. Little by little, the game I love is being chipped away and ignoring player feedback has been a huge part of that.

Eventually, it will be too much.

LunaFlora · October 21

i think
Ideas take anything from a few months to several years to be added.
that is if they even get added.

Feedback being passed on to the developers doesn't guarantee that it will be added nor does it guarantee that it would be implemented exactly the way it was suggested.

And if an idea was passed on right before an update it's obviously not going to be in the next update.

Plus nearly all features were asked for by at least some people, even if the requests were slightly different.
though i'm not referring to the example in the post as there's no specific items or features mentioned.

and Kevin commented about feedback recently in a similar thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8192823#Comment_8192823

Servadei · October 21

I dread updates and patches because it means my builds I poured so much time and upgrades into are about to be useless. Also, there are always new bugs or the return of old bugs.

It's why I stopped playing endgame. Why should I invest time and real money into builds and strats when it's all going to be gone in a few months with the next "balance" cycle? When I say real money, I mean I always used to buy the latest DLCs because that's where ZOS puts all the fun and best stuff until that too gets gutted. It's a nonstop bait and rug pull every few months.

CameraBeardThePirate · October 21

The devs can continue to claim that our feedback is important, but nearly every line in the patch notes the past few years have indicated otherwise.

Things like GLS, Jabs, or most recently, Medal Score based Leaderboards, make it abundantly clear that player feedback doesn't matter for 99% of the changes the devs push.

colossalvoids · October 21

I'd say consistently over increasingly. Last time i remember "being heard" was around elsweyr and dragonhold releases, not that patches were great but they've genuinely tried to tinker with the game and address stuff directly.

gamma71 · October 21

Like ToT I have never heard anyone in guild chat even mention it let alone play it , point is op is correct I see no point whatsoever in giving feedback they don't care, just look at pvp it's such a joke now, why there is even a pts is beyond me. It's there game they can do what they want.

KromedeTheCorrupt · October 21

The sad thing ofc it’s a business and they’re in the business to make money. End of story. But why not at least listen to the people who pay your bills. I get ZOS is in control of ESO and they will do what they want and think is best for the game rather player feedback is genuine good or bad.

That’s the main disconnect between devs / players.

Devs say we made the game we get to decide how it’s gonna work.

But by the same token players aren’t going to keep playing a game where their voices are ignored and their feedback isn’t taken into consideration even if they say it is. Because the design choices indicate majority player feedback is irrelevant and not listened to.

It’s like going to the same restaurant in town and ordering a burger but they keep giving you a taco. After awhile people just go silent and then never heard from again.

They say they had 20-30 million subscribers combined. And across all platforms the avg number count is 40,000. Clearly players will quit once they reach their breaking point and no longer care about a game that doesn’t care about them. No not every suggestion, feedback or comment should be heard or listened to. But it seems like the majority of players have made their voices clear on the years about changes and it never made a difference. So to the players who quit. Why even bother making these posts. 10+ years and still being ignored.

Melivar · October 21

Forum feedback while the most visible to those of us who are on here all the time is just a drop in the bucket of the total player base. There is alot of great feedback given on the forums but there is also a ton of terrible feedback or ideas for both aspects from my opinion.

In one of my guilds 10-12 of the 40 active players that I see and or interact fairly regularly with play ToT alot, I however have played about a dozen games and it just isn't for me. Of those 10-12 people I think only 1 would be a forum regular. To give a simple for instance.

Most polls will get less than 100 votes, some may garner 200-300, but vary rarely does anything get over 500 total votes let alone over 1000. Even if you just look at Steam numbers that's a drop in the bucket.

Having some metrics that we could all see would be great but isn't really in ZOS best interest for a variety of reasons, but I am sure they can and do monitor what people are doing in game even if those things often leave some of us scratching our heads.

Taril · October 21

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

But why not at least listen to the people who pay your bills.

They probably are.

That's the thing about forums and discussions... People who use forums are generally the tiniest fraction of a percent of the overall playerbase.

Most people simply are providing feedback... With their wallets. What people buy likely has a far, far higher sample size and thus impact on decision making than what a handful of people on a forum say.

KromedeTheCorrupt · October 21

Taril wrote: »

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

But why not at least listen to the people who pay your bills.

They probably are.

That's the thing about forums and discussions... People who use forums are generally the tiniest fraction of a percent of the overall playerbase.

Most people simply are providing feedback... With their wallets. What people buy likely has a far, far higher sample size and thus impact on decision making than what a handful of people on a forum say.

So more houses for $100 then. That’s true though

RomanRex · October 21

Taril wrote: »

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

But why not at least listen to the people who pay your bills.

They probably are.

That's the thing about forums and discussions... People who use forums are generally the tiniest fraction of a percent of the overall playerbase.

Most people simply are providing feedback... With their wallets. What people buy likely has a far, far higher sample size and thus impact on decision making than what a handful of people on a forum say.

Why waste time trying to gather feedback when it gets ignored then?

KromedeTheCorrupt · October 21

RomanRex wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

But why not at least listen to the people who pay your bills.

They probably are.

That's the thing about forums and discussions... People who use forums are generally the tiniest fraction of a percent of the overall playerbase.

Most people simply are providing feedback... With their wallets. What people buy likely has a far, far higher sample size and thus impact on decision making than what a handful of people on a forum say.

Why waste time trying to gather feedback when it gets ignored then?

ZOS made an entire forum dedicated to overland content change suggestions with thousands of comments and then said nvm and completely ignored every single feedback comment on it. Hasn’t been responded to since and that was like a year ago. So ask them that first.

Their only comment aligned with their direction since up35 which was something along the lines of my own interpret of it is as follows. “ we want the game to be dumbed down as much as possible so anybody of any age can jump in and just play without learning and knowing any mechanics and have zero issues. Just like Skyrim was. End quote

Aardappelboom · October 21

They just need to stop gambling all their money on these big yearly reveals and start sharing content and ideas with smaller groups and in smaller increments.

Why would any company in 2024 bet an entire year of development on a 50/50% chance their content is going to hit the sweet spot.

That's the problem right there.

I don't doubt that they're commited and have the game's best interest in mind, I'm even sure that they read and take feedback seriously. But the feedbackloop (aka PTS) is just way too short and from a business perspectice i'd wouldn't be wise to change big things so close to releasing since the investments have already taken place.

Just share ideas first, get a group going to bounce off ideas, than make the investments. Games are such a great product to do this, everyone loves games so it's a sure way of getting good feedback before making any big investments.

User voice, beta rings, user groups, it's all been done before so there's no reason not to start trying this out with the ESO playerbase. And no, a survey doesn't cut it.

Mavloc · October 21

RomanRex wrote: »

Why waste time trying to gather feedback when it gets ignored then?

The people gathering your feedback are like your managers.

The people who decide what gets put in the game, they're corporate.

Stafford197 · October 21

I think the most important thing to point out here is: Stalking Blastbones.

How in the world do they remove a core ability for a class, see the tremendous negative feedback in all its forms, and then still go through with it?

Or how about: Templar Puncturing Strikes changes.

Not a single complaint about the animation or prop in what, 6+ years? But then they change this skill to have a lower quality animation along with an ugly prop. All ESO-related social media explodes with negative feedback. They keep the change in, and on top of this, do not even update the multiple other spear-related abilities to follow suit in using the new spear prop!

Not sure what else needs to be said - feedback is not valued. They only care if it’s something they personally feel like changing.

Taril · October 21

RomanRex wrote: »

Why waste time trying to gather feedback when it gets ignored then?

The cynical answer is to placate people.

You make people think you care about their feedback, then they stick around waiting for you to act on it. Instead of thinking you don't care and just outright leaving.

It's possible that some feedback might actually get incorporated too, likely just not in the form that suits the people providing the feedback.

The less cynical answer would be that most often in these sorts of situations, it's usually some sort of push and pull between developers (Whom actually want to make something good that players enjoy) and executives (That only care about maximum profit). Whereby developers are usually bound by what executives will greenlight.

So having huge unanimous agreement from feedback can add weight to a developer's argument, but it doesn't guarantee that an executive will "Waste" resources on having devs implement it over churning out more stuff that makes money.

Urvoth · October 21

Stafford197 wrote: »

I think the most important thing to point out here is: Stalking Blastbones.

How in the world do they remove a core ability for a class, see the tremendous negative feedback in all its forms, and then still go through with it?

Or how about: Templar Puncturing Strikes changes.

Not a single complaint about the animation or prop in what, 6+ years? But then they change this skill to have a lower quality animation along with an ugly prop. All ESO-related social media explodes with negative feedback. They keep the change in, and on top of this, do not even update the multiple other spear-related abilities to follow suit in using the new spear prop!

Not sure what else needs to be said - feedback is not valued. They only care if it’s something they personally feel like changing.

They clearly just don’t care about feedback. Even though the forums are a small percentage of the player base, it’s still representative of the larger community and widely agreed on points are going to be valid for most players.

DeadlySerious · October 21

The_Meathead wrote: »

Honestly, since about U35 I've felt that the decision making has been strongly out of sync with player wants and feedback.

It's gotten worse, not better, and frankly it's almost startling how disconnected it seems from PTS, player feedback, and forum discussions.

I certainly don't expect them to jump on every little thing the Forums manage a semi-consensus on, but things like Jabs, Flurry, Grim Focus' permaglow and stuff like that has been so near-universally deadpanned by players that it's shocking to see it so ignored. Equally or maybe even more disturbing when the PTS posters give staggeringly detailed and logical reasons an incoming Set or Ability change shouldn't happen... but then ZOS plows on through with it, only to over-nerf it a year later instead.

The story becoming more "family friendly" and further from the Elder Scrolls "feel" is also very problematic to me.

I still love ESO and enjoy the game tremendously or I wouldn't be here, but if I'm being very honest that enjoyment comes in spite of decisions made at U35 and after, rather than because of them. Little by little, the game I love is being chipped away and ignoring player feedback has been a huge part of that.

Eventually, it will be too much.

Yep, U35 was the turning point for sure. So many horrible changes in that update. And the templar jabs animation is still the most prolific reminder of the failure to listen to community feedback.

U35 is when I quit giving ZOS money for anything. I still play, but won't pay again unless there is a serious about face on the part of ZOS' customer service.

dk_dunkirk · October 22

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

But why not at least listen to the people who pay your bills.

They probably are.

That's the thing about forums and discussions... People who use forums are generally the tiniest fraction of a percent of the overall playerbase.

Most people simply are providing feedback... With their wallets. What people buy likely has a far, far higher sample size and thus impact on decision making than what a handful of people on a forum say.

Why waste time trying to gather feedback when it gets ignored then?

ZOS made an entire forum dedicated to overland content change suggestions with thousands of comments and then said nvm and completely ignored every single feedback comment on it. Hasn’t been responded to since and that was like a year ago. So ask them that first.

Their only comment aligned with their direction since up35 which was something along the lines of my own interpret of it is as follows. “ we want the game to be dumbed down as much as possible so anybody of any age can jump in and just play without learning and knowing any mechanics and have zero issues. Just like Skyrim was. End quote

They were quick to lock a thread I started about a new idea, and tell me to throw it on that scrap pile. I got one stupid response that missed the whole point, and that was that. This whole forum is a place for people to kvetch, and let them feel better, and never doing anything about any of it. It's a honeypot.

anadandy · October 22

For me, the it was removal of Bosmer stealth. Trashing decades of established lore and taking away years of player gameplay for..what? Never explained, never acknowledged beyond some lip service to the old class rep program. That was the first time I was part of a very long, thoughtful, polite and well reasoned feedback thread that was completely ignored for a year, before being locked as "out of date."

I still play, obviously, but I stopped taking any feedback requests seriously. The whole home tours reveal just cemented that.

Cooperharley · October 22

100% true and real

DreamyLu · October 22

Don't forget that forums feedback are representative of the forums population, that have a vast majority of players same "type": those who like to be in this/those specific forum(s).

In short, the feedback we see from one or the other places, is representative of that specific group of players, globally thinking relatively alike, but it doesn't necessarily reflect the full game population, that has a vast majority of silent casual PvE players.

I suppose that ZOS take into consideration several criteria, like mainly (non exhaustive):
- Databases of information relative to their playerbase.
- Tendencies in other MMORPG that have success.
- Forums.
- Social networks
And they also have financial and technical limitations.

So, all in all, I can imagine that it's quite difficult to make decisions. In the end, it's impossible to make everybody happy. There will always be someone disappointed, no matter what they do.

Nerouyn · October 22

anadandy wrote: »

For me, the it was removal of Bosmer stealth. Trashing decades of established lore and taking away years of player gameplay for..what? Never explained, never acknowledged beyond some lip service to the old class rep program.

Yeah, bosmer.

I don't like that the game has racials and since I swing more towards mag, bosmer was never a great fit anyway but post change was even worse.

I think the truth that ZO could never speak here is that they royally screwed up.

They divided the game into three warring factions, gave the game's only racial stealth bonuses to two races in a single faction, leaving the only way to play one of the other factions with a stealth boosted character as having pre-ordered. Though they later added the any race any faction thing to the crown store, originally it was locked to preorder.

By the time ESO launched many players had been burned by other preorder duds, and ZO was doing un-TES things like classes. I wouldn't be surprised if pre-orders were relatively low.

My guess is that Dominion player numbers were just ridiculously high and covenant low (human, human + orc = boring) so Bosmer stealth was ripped away and bretons got the AP (i.e. pvp xp) boost.

NotNi.ya · October 22

I’m not defending ZOS (we’re not exactly on friendly terms right now), but it’s important to note that the feedback they gather from the forums often comes from a specific type of player—those who prioritize lore accuracy, housing, quests, and farming. Unfortunately, the ideas that get implemented from this feedback don’t always translate well to gameplay, as they might not be addressing the most pressing concerns.

Much of the feedback they need to consider is buried beneath requests for housing quality of life improvements and other less critical features, like petting floof balls. While those requests are valid, I believe it would be beneficial for them to also focus on important issues such as bug fixes, gear balancing that won’t negatively impact the majority of players, and addressing the severe performance issues we’ve faced over the past six months.

ZOS’s prioritization has always puzzled me; it feels like they’re focused on small, minor updates while allowing larger issues to spiral out of control until it’s too late.

Overall, the changes and additions to the game often seem out of touch because they are paying attention to the wrong things. It’s a disappointing reality of prioritizing profit over quality.

I_killed_Vivec · October 22

To be fair, I have seen very few "great" ideas from forum members. People are always pushing their favourite ideas, but whether they are feasible or not is a different matter - some are pushing a particular view, which is probably not shared by many; many would cause ridiculous balancing issues; others would require basically implementing a different game. And some are probably impossible without rewriting vast amounts of code - even the software experts among us have no real idea of how the code is structured, no matter how much we might think we do.

I see ZoS representatives saying "Oh, that's good, we'll look into it" as similar to a parent congratulating a three year old's painting.

However, where the opinions of the forum really should count are when players have commented on the PTS - after all, it's what it's there for!

So when people say "That's not balanced", "That will be misused", "People won't like that", "Don't change jabs", this is when ZoS should listen. But repeatedly they do not.

But the real problem is with wider, strategic decisions about the directions the game is going. "Repeatable content" becomes IA - basically no content (in terms of story). While the quality and quantity of chapters decreases we even have further reductions for "bug fixes and QoL", and story lines that should be completed in one chapter are spread across two.

Rowjoh · October 22

Servadei wrote: »

I dread updates and patches because it means my builds I poured so much time and upgrades into are about to be useless...

simply this ^^

pklemming · October 22

Same, not playing this game of changing sets every patch anymore. Azureblight will go live in a form we don't want and nothing will change. They will do whatever they want despite the fact the people that are actually paying their wages vehemently disagree with the direction they are going.

I spent a whole 10 minutes on ESO, today, doing endeavours. That is all I will do now. no need for eso+ anymore. My few minutes in the morning are all I am interested in playing, unless a friend wants help. I can better spend my time in a game where the players feel wanted, and not an annoyance to ignore, or placate with vague acknowledgements of their existence..

JonesFPS · October 22

This thread is a lost cause, nobody will listen and if someone is reading it, well nothing will happen.

This game will die. Not today not next year but it'll slowly die.
Player retention should be the main goal but instead it caters to much to "casuals" in any facette of gameplay, doesn't matter if its pve/housing/trading etc.
Player knowledge is leaving the game in any area, faster then new people can learn the ins and outs of ESO.

Simple things like people said before like templar jabs and other skills are completely neglected.
Other things are completely unfinished Blastbones, hybridization etc.
PVP and PVE are not balanced seperately.

This game feels like RL politicts, cause the company is so far away from their playerbase, especially their long term playerbase that they probably dont even understand what we are talking about.

For me personally, and i know no one cares but i guess many people feel the same way, if U45 isnt something really exiting and fresh i wont buy it, my sub will be canceled and i will move on. I play since launch and i love this game, but love alone doesnt keep me around.

LikiLoki · October 22

Only the most active part of people write on this forum and their suggestions do not always reflect the wishes of most players. Then, there are doubts that this game project is in the development stage, and not in the support stage, whether ZoS sees the expediency of introducing new global things into a morally old game. Of course, I partially agree with the author's opinion, but I also see another side.