What gives with the DLC formula

KromedeTheCorrupt

I’m not tryinf to be a Debbie downer but when will we get new types of DLC instead of another copy and past of the last chapter in a new zone ?

I’m not against new zones that’s always in MMOs but I don’t care to explore more than 1 zone if I know the next chapter is just the same delve, dungeon, skyshard, world boss hunt for the 10th time. I get the formula has worked for ESO but it’s not so great with player retention. People have grown tired and bored of the same exact carbon copy formula.

Other games have entire new zones with taming and riding dragons, or even catching creatures in the game to use as pets and tame able mounts, pets that loot bodies, gather resources, or even give you treasure from time and time and have their own personality and you can interact with them by feeding them, playing with them and petting them. They have their own individual levels and skills. Or a minion system that lets you tame and summon creatures around the world to use and aid you in battle.

Housing plots of lands in new realms where people can live next door or buy prefab houses in a community that has its on community with quests and currency to unlock various types of items. Or either just a realm with a plot of land like they have now but can build your own land hills, mountains, ect.

Other games have sub humans that evolved to gain wings and able to use flight. Ect

I’m not saying any of this should be added to eso these are just examples but the same ole same ole formula is not going to keep player engagement. You also have to weigh the fun factor vs lore factor since this is an mmo for eso and is lore driven. But straying away is not always a bad thing if done tastefully and correctly.

coop500

FYI we did get companions semi-recently (and keep getting new ones) that have their own skill-lines, personalities and stuff.
We also got Scribing, the ability to create our own skills and spells.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think people give too little credit for what ESO HAS added recently.

Danikat

I assume you're talking about chapters specifically, since we haven't gotten zone DLC for years now.

Every chapter does have at least 1 new mechanic or system, in addition to the zone and story. Gold Road had scribing, Necrom had the archanist class, High Isle has Tales of Tribute and so on. It might not always be something you're personally interested in, but there's always something new, and additions to previous chapters mechanics - for example we've gotten new companions regularly since they were introduced.

But also while new zones and stories may not interest you they're actually the main appeal for a lot of people and I suspect reducing that even more than they already have (as I mentioned we haven't gotten a zone DLC for years now) would actually lose them a lot more players. You can add all the novelty gimmicks you like to a game, but if there's nothing to actually do with them it's not going to help retain players.

KromedeTheCorrupt

Danikat wrote: »

I assume you're talking about chapters specifically, since we haven't gotten zone DLC for years now.

Every chapter does have at least 1 new mechanic or system, in addition to the zone and story. Gold Road had scribing, Necrom had the archanist class, High Isle has Tales of Tribute and so on. It might not always be something you're personally interested in, but there's always something new, and additions to previous chapters mechanics - for example we've gotten new companions regularly since they were introduced.

But also while new zones and stories may not interest you they're actually the main appeal for a lot of people and I suspect reducing that even more than they already have (as I mentioned we haven't gotten a zone DLC for years now) would actually lose them a lot more players. You can add all the novelty gimmicks you like to a game, but if there's nothing to actually do with them it's not going to help retain players.

So like gold road gimmick with spell crafting and re colored skills ? Everybody was done with it the first month it came out and no amount of custom skills is going to stop somebody from leaving. Everybody was already on about the next chapter. It’s easily the worst chapter we’ve had and that’s from player feedback alone not even my own opinion. I understand you think adding stuff that’s not a new chapter formula is just a gimmick but that’s clearly not working for player retention either. So it’s an agree to disagree.

A new class is awesome though but we got 2 in the last 10 years. Nobody I know in any of my guilds friends or social people care about TOT. Either. Making a new limited spell with a recolor isn’t going to stop people from quitting either.

coop500 wrote: »

FYI we did get companions semi-recently (and keep getting new ones) that have their own skill-lines, personalities and stuff.
We also got Scribing, the ability to create our own skills and spells.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think people give too little credit for what ESO HAS added recently.

Companies were good not necessarily I won’t quit the game good. And customize some skills and a recolor won’t stop people from leaving either.

I respect both your opinions but not very good points on why the formula shouldn’t change.

tohopka_eso

One thing I wouldn't mind getting maybe multiple zones for a story??? There is so much on the map that hasn't been explored yet.

KromedeTheCorrupt

tohopka_eso wrote: »

One thing I wouldn't mind getting maybe multiple zones for a story??? There is so much on the map that hasn't been explored yet.

I don’t mind new zones it’s just the same mind numbing experience of things to do it’s all the same

Nerouyn

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

So like gold road gimmick with spell crafting and re colored skills ? Everybody was done with it the first month it came out and no amount of custom skills is going to stop somebody from leaving.

Ahem.

The single player TES games don't have classes and pre Skyrim had spellcrafting.

Scribing isn't anywhere near as ambitious as the leaked original plans they had for spellcrafting but still brings ESO a big step closer to the kind of game many TES fans wanted it to be.

I'm not playing my wardens presently because arcanists have left them in the dust for my tastes, but their mag damage options are rather limited. Every scribed spell significantly boosts their playability and the wildburn (i.e. ice / leaves) style for the dest staff is the first plant-styled damage ability available to them.

Those are hugely value adding.

I'm on the fence presently about jumping back into the game seriously precisely because of features like this.

tohopka_eso

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

tohopka_eso wrote: »

One thing I wouldn't mind getting maybe multiple zones for a story??? There is so much on the map that hasn't been explored yet.

I don’t mind new zones it’s just the same mind numbing experience of things to do it’s all the same

Oh that's why I said for the story to carry through multiple. Just something I miss.

KromedeTheCorrupt

tohopka_eso wrote: »

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

tohopka_eso wrote: »

One thing I wouldn't mind getting maybe multiple zones for a story??? There is so much on the map that hasn't been explored yet.

I don’t mind new zones it’s just the same mind numbing experience of things to do it’s all the same

Oh that's why I said for the story to carry through multiple. Just something I miss.

Writing has been under fire recently by the community and I agree the idea is neat but I wasn’t intrigued enough of necrom/ west Weald story to even care. I like older zones quests lines and those weren’t bad imo but the community thought it was that bad.

Nerouyn wrote: »

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

So like gold road gimmick with spell crafting and re colored skills ? Everybody was done with it the first month it came out and no amount of custom skills is going to stop somebody from leaving.

Ahem.

The single player TES games don't have classes and pre Skyrim had spellcrafting.

Scribing isn't anywhere near as ambitious as the leaked original plans they had for spellcrafting but still brings ESO a big step closer to the kind of game many TES fans wanted it to be.

I'm not playing my wardens presently because arcanists have left them in the dust for my tastes, but their mag damage options are rather limited. Every scribed spell significantly boosts their playability and the wildburn (i.e. ice / leaves) style for the dest staff is the first plant-styled damage ability available to them.

Those are hugely value adding.

I'm on the fence presently about jumping back into the game seriously precisely because of features like this.

Yeah could bring you back but zos nerf hammer is hitting anything in sight so be careful as balance is scary so as long as they just nerf everything we finally be able to play any set we want and all be equally trash as life should be equally balanced. lol but throne and liberty was a fun game you might like that one

Melivar

No ideas are bad ideas but at the same time as with most games the majority of the heavy play base is going to complete the content they can provide in 30 days or less anyways.

Some games or activities which run the gear treadmill may last 60 days before people get what they want. Now there are always exceptions and variables but if your goals it to finish whatever is provided it won't last as long as it takes to produce.

I'd be open to just about anything they will give us expect flying, that just makes the world in general irrelevant and with the number or way shrines we have it is already pretty easy to get around.

SeaGtGruff

Nerouyn wrote: »

The single player TES games don't have classes

Please don't take this the wrong way, but...

Tell us you haven't played the single-player TES games without telling us you haven't played the single-player TES games.

Unless "don't" was a typo, or maybe if you were specifically talking about some of the single-player TES games but neglected to say "some of the single-player TES games."

1994 -- TES:Arena -- 18 predefined classes, which affect maximum HP gains per level; XP required to level up; starting gear; weapon, armor, and shield types that may be used; number of spell points (with most classes having no spell points at all); chance of being successful at lockpicking, pickpocketing, and stealing from merchants; chance of landing a critical strike; and any special abilities, advantages, or disadvantages (e.g., Acrobats can jump further, Barbarians are immune to poison, Knights can repair their gear)

1996 -- TES2:Daggerfall -- 18 predefined classes, plus the ability to create custom classes, which generally have similar impacts on gameplay as in Arena, except all classes can cast spells, and each class has specific primary, major, and minor skills whose skill levels are used in determining when the character will level up

1997 -- AESL:Battlespire -- 18 predefined classes, plus the ability to create custom classes, which generally have similar impacts on gameplay as in Arena and Daggerfall (more similar to Daggerfall than Arena), except leveling is totally different (advancing from one level of the Battlespire to the next grants a certain number of reward points which can be used to increase ones skills)

1998 -- TESA:Redguard -- No classes, with the same predefined character for everyone rather than the ability to create ones own character

2002 -- TES3:Morrowind -- 21 predefined classes, plus the ability to create custom classes, generally similar to Daggerfall and Battlespire as far as skills and leveling, except class does not determine which types of weapons, armor, and shields can be used

2003 -- TEST:Stormhold -- 6 or 7 predefined classes, depending on the specific version of the game

2004 -- TEST:Dawnstar -- 6 or 7 predefined classes, depending on the specific version of the game

2004 -- TEST:Shadowkey -- 9 predefined classes

2006 -- TES4:Oblivion -- 21 predefined classes, plus the ability to create custom classes, somewhat similar to Daggerfall, Battlespire, and Morrowind as far as skills and leveling, except class does not determine which types of weapons, armor, and shields can be used

2006 -- TEST:Oblivion -- 8 predefined classes

2011 -- TES5:Skyrim -- No classes

2014 -- TESO -- 4 predefined classes in the base game, plus 3 additional classes which can be purchased in the Crown Store

2017 -- TES:Legends -- No character classes, although card decks have classes depending on the specific combination of their attributes, with 10 predefined dual-attribute classes and 10 predefined triple-attribute classes

2020 -- TES:Blades -- No classes

2024 -- TES:Castles -- No classes per se, although NPCs can be assigned to specific types of work within the castle

TLDR -- 9 of the 14 single-player TES games have character classes, with 4 of the 5 "main series" TES games having character classes. The impacts of classes are most severe in Arena, given that only about a third of the classes have spell points and the ability to cast spells without using potions or magic items, and the restrictions associated with classes (as far as types of weapons, armor, and shields that can be used) were gradually relaxed or removed in later games. Although Redguard was the first TES game to have no character classes, Skyrim was the first "main series" TES game to have no character classes.

alternatelder

KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »

A new class is awesome though but we got 2 in the last 10 years. Nobody I know in any of my guilds friends or social people care about TOT. Either. Making a new limited spell with a recolor isn’t going to stop people from quitting either.

We've gotten 3 new classes since launch. Every one of these (copy pasted) threads just honestly sound like the posters need to take a break from the game before extreme burnout happens and then come back if something catches their eye fancy enough to keep them around longer. ESO doesn't need to be like all the other games.

I didn't care about ToT at first buy I loved it when I actually played. The fake spellcrafting doesn't have to appeal to everyone. I personally haven't wasted time on it, but that's because other games have my attention more, and no, it doesn't mean ESO is dying because a certain system doesn't catch my attention enough. 🤦

colossalvoids

Classes are absolutely a thing in tes indeed, I get what the person meant but still in the game we have on our hands classes not only a staple of what we play but it defines a character heavily and people definitely want new classes above anything else to expand their archetypes available.

SeaGtGruff

colossalvoids wrote: »

Classes are absolutely a thing in tes indeed, I get what the person meant but still in the game we have on our hands classes not only a staple of what we play but it defines a character heavily and people definitely want new classes above anything else to expand their archetypes available.

Yeah, it's interesting that ESO was begun before Skyrim, and has classes just like nearly all of the pre-Skyrim TES games do (aside from Redguard), but it basically adheres to the more relaxed concept of classes which appears in both Morrowind and Oblivion (namely, that ones choice of class doesn't put restrictions on the types of weapons, armor, and shields one can use).

You can definitely see a general progression or evolution of the class concept in the main TES games from Arena to Skyrim, with Arena having the most tradional "D&D-style" implementation of classes-- how classes affect the maximum HPs you can gain as you level up, the specific XP amounts at which you level up, the types of gear you can use, whether or not you can cast spells "naturally," and what sorts of abilities and disabilities you have. As much as I enjoy Arena, I think it was a good idea for Bethesda to move away from the D&D model of doing things and develop a completely different concept of leveling up based on ones skill levels-- although ESO went back to the older XP-based model, which seems oddly appropriate given that ESO takes place before the events in Arena, hence there's a sort of logic to having ESO do some things in the more tradional way.

As far as the way that classes become less and less restrictive from one TES game to the next, I think it makes better sense to place fewer and fewer restrictions on what the player's character can do, use, and wear in the single-player TES games, given that the player is controlling a single character rather than controlling a party of characters or joining up with other players and their characters. Sure, it can be interesting and fun to play through a game under a specific set of limitations. But at the same time, it can be a real pain to have all sorts of artificial restrictions forced upon you. What do you mean, I can't wear medium or heavy armor? Why not? What do you mean, I can't use a sword? Why not? Are you telling me my character is too stupid to figure out how a sword works? I could see making it more difficult to learn how to use a sword, but even if I were starting out as the weakest twink in Tamriel, it seems like I should be able to pick up a sword and ever-so-gradually build up the muscle needed to wield it properly and the skill needed to swing it effectively. Some of the restrictions in D&D seem pretty contrived and silly, such as Rogues can throw rocks but Mages can only throw darts. Huh?

Danikat

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Nerouyn wrote: »

The single player TES games don't have classes

Please don't take this the wrong way, but...

Tell us you haven't played the single-player TES games without telling us you haven't played the single-player TES games.

They offer 'classes' as a quick way to pick your starting skills and attributes if you don't want to make your own build, but they don't define your character the way classes do in most RPGs that have them, including ESO.

In all the other TES games all characters have access to all the skills and attributes and the ones you pick during character creation simply start with slightly more points (whether you pick them via a class or another method), but you can change which ones are your main/best simply by using different things.

In ESO your class locks you into certain choices from the start and they can never be changed. Only a Nightblade can use Shadow skills, only a Warden can use Animal Companions, only a Dragonknight can use Ardent Flame, and so on. It's a lot more limiting because you can only use those 3 class skill lines together, you can't mix and match like you can with the skills in other TES games.

Erickson9610

Danikat wrote: »

In ESO your class locks you into certain choices from the start and they can never be changed. Only a Nightblade can use Shadow skills, only a Warden can use Animal Companions, only a Dragonknight can use Ardent Flame, and so on. It's a lot more limiting because you can only use those 3 class skill lines together, you can't mix and match like you can with the skills in other TES games.

This is the "MMO" part of ESO that I'm not a fan of. I'm sure people who come from other MMOs love this or think that's the way it should be — actually, quite a few people ask for even more Classes.

I suppose if ESO is to appeal to both the MMO players and the Elder Scrolls players, a compromise had to be made. At the very least, we're not locked into a particular role with our Class selection.

DeadlySerious

coop500 wrote: »

FYI we did get companions semi-recently (and keep getting new ones) that have their own skill-lines, personalities and stuff.
We also got Scribing, the ability to create our own skills and spells.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think people give too little credit for what ESO HAS added recently.

What has ZOS added or done for Cyrodiil PvP in the last six years? (besides radically lowering the population caps I mean)

Cooperharley

All of the DLC chapters have been copy paste for years minus their “big new feature.” The formula has dried out in my opinion and their releases need a face lift, big time.

Taril

Erickson9610 wrote: »

This is the "MMO" part of ESO that I'm not a fan of. I'm sure people who come from other MMOs love this or think that's the way it should be — actually, quite a few people ask for even more Classes.

I suppose if ESO is to appeal to both the MMO players and the Elder Scrolls players, a compromise had to be made. At the very least, we're not locked into a particular role with our Class selection.

It's not necessarily an "MMO" thing to be honest.

Secret World didn't have classes. Your skills were simply the ones you picked and leveled.

It only becomes an "MMO" thing because of balancing. MMO's require balance (Unlike single player games where it's just fine if there's broken combinations of skills) and classes restrict overall numbers of skill combinations making balancing easier.

It also promotes diversity, instead of everyone having the exact same set of abilities that are just the best, you have each class using different class abilities (Of course, balance dictates whether or not everyone is simply playing the same best class with the same best skills...).

Though, it's quite possible that classes in ESO was somewhat fueled by the ability to monetize multiple classes requiring multiple characters (Meaning Character Slots, Outfit slots, Armory slots, Riding skills, the option to sell Skyshard packs to reduce grinds etc)

Cooperharley

Danikat wrote: »

I assume you're talking about chapters specifically, since we haven't gotten zone DLC for years now.

Every chapter does have at least 1 new mechanic or system, in addition to the zone and story. Gold Road had scribing, Necrom had the archanist class, High Isle has Tales of Tribute and so on. It might not always be something you're personally interested in, but there's always something new, and additions to previous chapters mechanics - for example we've gotten new companions regularly since they were introduced.

But also while new zones and stories may not interest you they're actually the main appeal for a lot of people and I suspect reducing that even more than they already have (as I mentioned we haven't gotten a zone DLC for years now) would actually lose them a lot more players. You can add all the novelty gimmicks you like to a game, but if there's nothing to actually do with them it's not going to help retain players.

I think they’re referring to HOW formulaic it is. Same number of delves, public dungeons, World bosses, and end of the world scenario. The only imaginative thing is the new feature. If you look at how much money they make and the amount of content whether new or not, that’s released each year and compare to other MMOs, it’s a big difference.

I badly want them to stop playing it safe and do something really different and cool.

Nerouyn

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Please don't take this the wrong way, but...

This tired old chestnut....

The single player TES games are classless.

As the term is understood by ALL gamers but not the hardline defenders of ZO's stupid decision to make ESO a class-based game, certainly Daggerfall onwards are classless games.

Daggerfall and Morrowind include something they call classes but which absolutely aren't as the term is understood by ALL gamers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_class

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes

The key distinction here is restriction. Class based games restrict what abilities / skills any given character has access to.

Morrowind is completely unrestricted. Your chosen class only alters your starting stat and skill scores. Any character regardless of class can max every skill and learn and use every spell.

Daggerfall is more complicated and players could choose to impose restrictions on themselves based on class choice or custom class, but equally they could create a character capable of maxing every skill and learning and using every spell. The downside to maximum flexibility is a higher xp cost to level.

Unlike Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim, ESO is a class based game because the arsenal of spells available to characters is determined primarily by class. Some abilities (weapon, guild, soul, and now scribing) are available to everyone, but class abilities are not.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Classes

Choose to be a necromancer and you get 15 necro spells and no access to the 90 class spells belonging to the 6 other classes.