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[SUGGESTION] Optimal Queue System for upcoming Battlegrounds
Moonspawn
✭✭✭
Currently we have the following options:
4v4 Competitive. With leaderboard. Premades allowed.
8v8 Casual. No leaderboard. Premades still allowed somehow.
After the catastrophic mistake of matching solos against premades is finally understood I propose that the queue becomes like this:
4v4 Competitive. Premades allowed. You can check a box and queue for this alongside the other two options.
4v4 Competitive. With leaderboard. Solos only. You can check a box and queue for this alongside the other two options.
8v8 Casual. No leaderboard. Solos only. You can check a box and queue for this alongside the other two options.
If you're a premade, you'll only be able to check one of the three boxes. If you're solo, you can check all 3, but most likely would not check the one meant for premades. No premades vs solos, and everyone can participate in the leaderboards. Thoughts?
Edited by Moonspawn on 11 September 2024 22:14 4v4 Competitive. With leaderboard. Premades allowed.
8v8 Casual. No leaderboard. Premades still allowed somehow.
After the catastrophic mistake of matching solos against premades is finally understood I propose that the queue becomes like this:
4v4 Competitive. Premades allowed. You can check a box and queue for this alongside the other two options.
4v4 Competitive. With leaderboard. Solos only. You can check a box and queue for this alongside the other two options.
8v8 Casual. No leaderboard. Solos only. You can check a box and queue for this alongside the other two options.
If you're a premade, you'll only be able to check one of the three boxes. If you're solo, you can check all 3, but most likely would not check the one meant for premades. No premades vs solos, and everyone can participate in the leaderboards. Thoughts?
6
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sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.2 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Splitting 4v4 into group and solo is a bad idea that will only increase queue times. The matchmaking should probably prioritize matching groups together, but by queuing for a competitive queue you should know that you have the chance to go against premades and be okay with it. Most competitive matchmaking games are like this.
For 8v8, I think it's fine as is (can queue in up to 4 people, per ZOS' comments), but dropping that limit down to 2 players wouldn't hurt either. You should be able to queue with friends for casual, and splitting the queues would likely increase queue times too much.2 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.
You'll be able to do that in the 4v4 Competitive because the MMR will decrease a lot faster (Wheeler said one week) and will also reset once a month.0 -
jcaceresw✭✭✭✭✭They should only allow solo queuing to avoid that "pre-made" issue. I stopped playing BG because of that.2 -
They should only allow solo queuing to avoid that "pre-made" issue. I stopped playing BG because of that.
They should allow casual pre-mades (who ought to be in the Solo Queue) to exist without hardcore pre-mades.
Not being able to do BGs with one mediocre but fun-to-be-around friend just because you go from fighting people of your level to fighting 4-man premades communicating on discord with complimentary sets and tons of experience just sucks.
I can't play BGs with a friend because all groups are treated the same.1 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Splitting 4v4 into group and solo is a bad idea that will only increase queue times. The matchmaking should probably prioritize matching groups together, but by queuing for a competitive queue you should know that you have the chance to go against premades and be okay with it. Most competitive matchmaking games are like this.
For 8v8, I think it's fine as is (can queue in up to 4 people, per ZOS' comments), but dropping that limit down to 2 players wouldn't hurt either. You should be able to queue with friends for casual, and splitting the queues would likely increase queue times too much.
The solos willing to go against premades will still have the option to check all 3 boxes, so nothing gets split. Forcing solos to go against premades will be boring for everyone involved.2 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.
You'll be able to do that in the 4v4 Competitive because the MMR will decrease a lot faster (Wheeler said one week) and will also reset once a month.
That's not what that means at all? It's a competitive queue. People that queue there are going to be trying much harder.
The 8v8 queue is for messing around. 99% of the groups that queue for it won't be taking it very seriously at all, it's fine if they're lumped in with everyone else.
If anything, just decrease the group size limit for the 8s queue from 4 to 2.0 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.
You'll be able to do that in the 4v4 Competitive because the MMR will decrease a lot faster (Wheeler said one week) and will also reset once a month.
That's not what that means at all? It's a competitive queue. People that queue there are going to be trying much harder.
The 8v8 queue is for messing around. 99% of the groups that queue for it won't be taking it very seriously at all, it's fine if they're lumped in with everyone else.
If anything, just decrease the group size limit for the 8s queue from 4 to 2.
If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.2 -
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.
You'll be able to do that in the 4v4 Competitive because the MMR will decrease a lot faster (Wheeler said one week) and will also reset once a month.
That's not what that means at all? It's a competitive queue. People that queue there are going to be trying much harder.
The 8v8 queue is for messing around. 99% of the groups that queue for it won't be taking it very seriously at all, it's fine if they're lumped in with everyone else.
If anything, just decrease the group size limit for the 8s queue from 4 to 2.
If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.
What would you say if you were a premade of 2 just trying to hang out for an evening with no serious engagement in PVP other than as one of the activities you choose from to do together?
Should they be forced to queue against premades? Or should BGs/the new system just be removed from the list of potential options.Edited by ragnarok6644b14_ESO on 11 September 2024 19:110 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.
You'll be able to do that in the 4v4 Competitive because the MMR will decrease a lot faster (Wheeler said one week) and will also reset once a month.
That's not what that means at all? It's a competitive queue. People that queue there are going to be trying much harder.
The 8v8 queue is for messing around. 99% of the groups that queue for it won't be taking it very seriously at all, it's fine if they're lumped in with everyone else.
If anything, just decrease the group size limit for the 8s queue from 4 to 2.
If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.
What would you say if you were a premade of 2 just trying to hang out for an evening with no serious engagement in PVP other than as one of the activities you choose from to do together?
Should they be forced to queue against premades? Or should BGs/the new system just be removed from the list of potential options.
I'd say that if the MMR will decrease fast and even reset once a month, you'll find what you're looking for in the 4v4 Competitive. I'll probably always check all 3 boxes.
0 -
ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.
You'll be able to do that in the 4v4 Competitive because the MMR will decrease a lot faster (Wheeler said one week) and will also reset once a month.
That's not what that means at all? It's a competitive queue. People that queue there are going to be trying much harder.
The 8v8 queue is for messing around. 99% of the groups that queue for it won't be taking it very seriously at all, it's fine if they're lumped in with everyone else.
If anything, just decrease the group size limit for the 8s queue from 4 to 2.
If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.
What would you say if you were a premade of 2 just trying to hang out for an evening with no serious engagement in PVP other than as one of the activities you choose from to do together?
Should they be forced to queue against premades? Or should BGs/the new system just be removed from the list of potential options.
I'd say that if the MMR will decrease fast and even reset once a month, you'll find what you're looking for in the 4v4 Competitive. I'll probably always check all 3 boxes.
Why does MMR decreasing fast make the premade queue less sweaty?Edited by ragnarok6644b14_ESO on 11 September 2024 19:280 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.
You'll be able to do that in the 4v4 Competitive because the MMR will decrease a lot faster (Wheeler said one week) and will also reset once a month.
That's not what that means at all? It's a competitive queue. People that queue there are going to be trying much harder.
The 8v8 queue is for messing around. 99% of the groups that queue for it won't be taking it very seriously at all, it's fine if they're lumped in with everyone else.
If anything, just decrease the group size limit for the 8s queue from 4 to 2.
If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.
What would you say if you were a premade of 2 just trying to hang out for an evening with no serious engagement in PVP other than as one of the activities you choose from to do together?
Should they be forced to queue against premades? Or should BGs/the new system just be removed from the list of potential options.
I'd say that if the MMR will decrease fast and even reset once a month, you'll find what you're looking for in the 4v4 Competitive. I'll probably always check all 3 boxes.
Why does MMR decreasing fast make the premade queue less sweaty?
Because you'll be matched against players with similar MMR. The sweaty premade lives in 4v4, and should have extremely high MMR. If you go there once in a while, you would have low MMR, because it will decrease fast.0 -
ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.
You'll be able to do that in the 4v4 Competitive because the MMR will decrease a lot faster (Wheeler said one week) and will also reset once a month.
That's not what that means at all? It's a competitive queue. People that queue there are going to be trying much harder.
The 8v8 queue is for messing around. 99% of the groups that queue for it won't be taking it very seriously at all, it's fine if they're lumped in with everyone else.
If anything, just decrease the group size limit for the 8s queue from 4 to 2.
If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.
What would you say if you were a premade of 2 just trying to hang out for an evening with no serious engagement in PVP other than as one of the activities you choose from to do together?
Should they be forced to queue against premades? Or should BGs/the new system just be removed from the list of potential options.
I'd say that if the MMR will decrease fast and even reset once a month, you'll find what you're looking for in the 4v4 Competitive. I'll probably always check all 3 boxes.
Why does MMR decreasing fast make the premade queue less sweaty?
Because you'll be matched against players with similar MMR. The sweaty premade lives in 4v4, and should have extremely high MMR. If you go there once in a while, you would have low MMR, because it will decrease fast.
There's a lot of assumptions in here:
1) that it's account rather than character based
2) that my friend and I have similar MMRs (what if I normally have a high one but want to have a chill night?)
3) That it doesn't RESET quickly (or everyone just gets thrown back into the same pool)
4) that the sweaty teams don't coordinate/rotate players to keep their total group MMR low enough to club lowbies - this activity becomes easier if folks don't have to wait a long time (a week between 1/day matches as the 'lowbie' dragging down the average isn't too bad, since you get more matches as one of the other 3).0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am wondering why there is this casual Vs. competitive distinction.
I didn't watch the stream are the rules different? (are both non-CP, both have no gear restrictions, etc.). If a premade of 4 sweats are queuing for both, I am not seeing how my experience in one is fundamentally different from the other. Do I get rewards for the "competitive" format because there is a leaderboard but not for the "casual" format? That ... seems dubious.
At least how I understand the idea of "casual" PvP, the number one thing that I would take that to mean is that I will not come across a specific group comped for the setting (i.e,, the competitive desire to win as opposed to playing what we want and not feeling too disadvantaged). That does not seem to be the case here.0 -
Joy_Division wrote: »I am wondering why there is this casual Vs. competitive distinction.
I didn't watch the stream are the rules different? (are both non-CP, both have no gear restrictions, etc.). If a premade of 4 sweats are queuing for both, I am not seeing how my experience in one is fundamentally different from the other. Do I get rewards for the "competitive" format because there is a leaderboard but not for the "casual" format? That ... seems dubious.
At least how I understand the idea of "casual" PvP, the number one thing that I would take that to mean is that I will not come across a specific group comped for the setting (i.e,, the competitive desire to win as opposed to playing what we want and not feeling too disadvantaged). That does not seem to be the case here.
I like your definition of casual pvp - and it's probably worth opening another thread about. The rest of ESO is "tailorably casual" and that means all sorts of players can play it. I've participated in sweaty vet trials when I'm feeling it, and when I'm not, I can do regular vet where wipes are OK. Or normal. Vet DLC HM dungeons, or normal. I can do story or overland content. The phrase "want to do PVE?" is one I can utter to any player of the game at any time, regardless of who they are.
That is the spectrum of content needed for me to be able to comfortably say "Want to PVP?" or else PVP is only ever going to be something I engage with alone.0 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.
You'll be able to do that in the 4v4 Competitive because the MMR will decrease a lot faster (Wheeler said one week) and will also reset once a month.
That's not what that means at all? It's a competitive queue. People that queue there are going to be trying much harder.
The 8v8 queue is for messing around. 99% of the groups that queue for it won't be taking it very seriously at all, it's fine if they're lumped in with everyone else.
If anything, just decrease the group size limit for the 8s queue from 4 to 2.
If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.
What would you say if you were a premade of 2 just trying to hang out for an evening with no serious engagement in PVP other than as one of the activities you choose from to do together?
Should they be forced to queue against premades? Or should BGs/the new system just be removed from the list of potential options.
I'd say that if the MMR will decrease fast and even reset once a month, you'll find what you're looking for in the 4v4 Competitive. I'll probably always check all 3 boxes.
Why does MMR decreasing fast make the premade queue less sweaty?
Because you'll be matched against players with similar MMR. The sweaty premade lives in 4v4, and should have extremely high MMR. If you go there once in a while, you would have low MMR, because it will decrease fast.
There's a lot of assumptions in here:
1) that it's account rather than character based
2) that my friend and I have similar MMRs (what if I normally have a high one but want to have a chill night?)
3) That it doesn't RESET quickly (or everyone just gets thrown back into the same pool)
4) that the sweaty teams don't coordinate/rotate players to keep their total group MMR low enough to club lowbies - this activity becomes easier if folks don't have to wait a long time (a week between 1/day matches as the 'lowbie' dragging down the average isn't too bad, since you get more matches as one of the other 3).
I make no assumptions, just reproduced the info we got from the stream. Your goal seems to be to keep your premade away from 4v4 Competitive, even if it means forcing solos to go against premades. I'll just repeat: If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.1 -
ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.
You'll be able to do that in the 4v4 Competitive because the MMR will decrease a lot faster (Wheeler said one week) and will also reset once a month.
That's not what that means at all? It's a competitive queue. People that queue there are going to be trying much harder.
The 8v8 queue is for messing around. 99% of the groups that queue for it won't be taking it very seriously at all, it's fine if they're lumped in with everyone else.
If anything, just decrease the group size limit for the 8s queue from 4 to 2.
If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.
What would you say if you were a premade of 2 just trying to hang out for an evening with no serious engagement in PVP other than as one of the activities you choose from to do together?
Should they be forced to queue against premades? Or should BGs/the new system just be removed from the list of potential options.
I'd say that if the MMR will decrease fast and even reset once a month, you'll find what you're looking for in the 4v4 Competitive. I'll probably always check all 3 boxes.
Why does MMR decreasing fast make the premade queue less sweaty?
Because you'll be matched against players with similar MMR. The sweaty premade lives in 4v4, and should have extremely high MMR. If you go there once in a while, you would have low MMR, because it will decrease fast.
There's a lot of assumptions in here:
1) that it's account rather than character based
2) that my friend and I have similar MMRs (what if I normally have a high one but want to have a chill night?)
3) That it doesn't RESET quickly (or everyone just gets thrown back into the same pool)
4) that the sweaty teams don't coordinate/rotate players to keep their total group MMR low enough to club lowbies - this activity becomes easier if folks don't have to wait a long time (a week between 1/day matches as the 'lowbie' dragging down the average isn't too bad, since you get more matches as one of the other 3).
I make no assumptions, just reproduced the info we got from the stream. Your goal seems to be to keep your premade away from 4v4 Competitive, even if it means forcing solos to go against premades. I'll just repeat: If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Not really arguing for that exactly (though I'm certainly arguing for reconsidering your stance) - I have no specific desire to put solos against premades.
Rather, I am exploring the problem of "there are duos that are just as casual as solos, but choose to group - how do we cater to them?"0 -
Major_Mangle✭✭✭✭The 4v4 should remain as it is. It´s a competitive queue and should be catered and focused towards groups who wanna fight other optimized groups. If you queue in there solo you do that knowing you can come up against premades. The 8v8 should either be solo only or MAYBE (big maybe) allow you to queue as a duo, but no more than that.Edited by Major_Mangle on 11 September 2024 20:46Ps4 EU 2016-2020
PC/EU: 2020 -2 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.
You'll be able to do that in the 4v4 Competitive because the MMR will decrease a lot faster (Wheeler said one week) and will also reset once a month.
That's not what that means at all? It's a competitive queue. People that queue there are going to be trying much harder.
The 8v8 queue is for messing around. 99% of the groups that queue for it won't be taking it very seriously at all, it's fine if they're lumped in with everyone else.
If anything, just decrease the group size limit for the 8s queue from 4 to 2.
If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.
What would you say if you were a premade of 2 just trying to hang out for an evening with no serious engagement in PVP other than as one of the activities you choose from to do together?
Should they be forced to queue against premades? Or should BGs/the new system just be removed from the list of potential options.
I'd say that if the MMR will decrease fast and even reset once a month, you'll find what you're looking for in the 4v4 Competitive. I'll probably always check all 3 boxes.
Why does MMR decreasing fast make the premade queue less sweaty?
Because you'll be matched against players with similar MMR. The sweaty premade lives in 4v4, and should have extremely high MMR. If you go there once in a while, you would have low MMR, because it will decrease fast.
There's a lot of assumptions in here:
1) that it's account rather than character based
2) that my friend and I have similar MMRs (what if I normally have a high one but want to have a chill night?)
3) That it doesn't RESET quickly (or everyone just gets thrown back into the same pool)
4) that the sweaty teams don't coordinate/rotate players to keep their total group MMR low enough to club lowbies - this activity becomes easier if folks don't have to wait a long time (a week between 1/day matches as the 'lowbie' dragging down the average isn't too bad, since you get more matches as one of the other 3).
I make no assumptions, just reproduced the info we got from the stream. Your goal seems to be to keep your premade away from 4v4 Competitive, even if it means forcing solos to go against premades. I'll just repeat: If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Not really arguing for that exactly (though I'm certainly arguing for reconsidering your stance) - I have no specific desire to put solos against premades.
Rather, I am exploring the problem of "there are duos that are just as casual as solos, but choose to group - how do we cater to them?"
This problem is for after we know for certain that there isn't a place for them in the 4v4 competitive. There might be, we don't know. If the price of catering to duos is to force solos to go against premades, then it is simply too high.Edited by Moonspawn on 11 September 2024 21:201 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.
You'll be able to do that in the 4v4 Competitive because the MMR will decrease a lot faster (Wheeler said one week) and will also reset once a month.
See: some game modes don't exist in 4v4.0 -
SkaraMinoc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭4v4 should have a single queue because there isn't enough premade groups to support two separate queues. The Group Queue would have wait times of 1-2+ hours or never pop at all.
However, in a perfect world there would be two separate queues because Solo PvP is fundamentally different than GvG.
Edited by SkaraMinoc on 11 September 2024 21:08PC NA2 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.
You'll be able to do that in the 4v4 Competitive because the MMR will decrease a lot faster (Wheeler said one week) and will also reset once a month.
That's not what that means at all? It's a competitive queue. People that queue there are going to be trying much harder.
The 8v8 queue is for messing around. 99% of the groups that queue for it won't be taking it very seriously at all, it's fine if they're lumped in with everyone else.
If anything, just decrease the group size limit for the 8s queue from 4 to 2.
If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Cool, but solos would never be going against a full pre-made of 8, since you can only queue as 4. The comped 4 mans will be queueing for 4s anyways, so the only "premades" you'll be finding in 8s anyways are just groups of friends wanting to screw around for the night.0 -
Major_Mangle✭✭✭✭SkaraMinoc wrote: »4v4 should have a single queue because there isn't enough premade groups to support two separate queues. The Group Queue would have wait times of 1-2+ hours or never pop at all.
However, in a perfect world there would be two separate queues because Solo PvP is fundamentally different than GvG.
That as well, trying to queue with my friends into group BG's (regardless of group size) is basically a mission impossible (and we're by no means a good group, we just wanna pvp together). Our average queue time on pceu is about 35 minutes. Longest we had to wait was 55 minutes. And I agree, in a perfect world with more population you can have separate queues, but I personally rather have quick games that are a bit more unbalanced than wasting most of my evening in a queue.Ps4 EU 2016-2020
PC/EU: 2020 -1 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Major_Mangle wrote: »SkaraMinoc wrote: »4v4 should have a single queue because there isn't enough premade groups to support two separate queues. The Group Queue would have wait times of 1-2+ hours or never pop at all.
However, in a perfect world there would be two separate queues because Solo PvP is fundamentally different than GvG.
That as well, trying to queue with my friends into group BG's (regardless of group size) is basically a mission impossible (and we're by no means a good group, we just wanna pvp together). Our average queue time on pceu is about 35 minutes. Longest we had to wait was 55 minutes. And I agree, in a perfect world with more population you can have separate queues, but I personally rather have quick games that are a bit more unbalanced than wasting most of my evening in a queue.
If you wont have enough groups to sustain a 4 man premade queue that should tell you that not most organized groups don't actually want that mode.
So you'd just be ruining the competitive queue for all the solo players so that 3 or 4 premades can have their fun.PC/EU, StamSorc Main2 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Major_Mangle wrote: »SkaraMinoc wrote: »4v4 should have a single queue because there isn't enough premade groups to support two separate queues. The Group Queue would have wait times of 1-2+ hours or never pop at all.
However, in a perfect world there would be two separate queues because Solo PvP is fundamentally different than GvG.
That as well, trying to queue with my friends into group BG's (regardless of group size) is basically a mission impossible (and we're by no means a good group, we just wanna pvp together). Our average queue time on pceu is about 35 minutes. Longest we had to wait was 55 minutes. And I agree, in a perfect world with more population you can have separate queues, but I personally rather have quick games that are a bit more unbalanced than wasting most of my evening in a queue.
If you wont have enough groups to sustain a 4 man premade queue that should tell you that not most organized groups don't actually want that mode.
So you'd just be ruining the competitive queue for all the solo players so that 3 or 4 premades can have their fun.
Those 3 or 4 premades will wind up fighting each other thanks to MMR. Or not playing very often if they decide to let their MMR decay so they get better queue times.0 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Major_Mangle wrote: »SkaraMinoc wrote: »4v4 should have a single queue because there isn't enough premade groups to support two separate queues. The Group Queue would have wait times of 1-2+ hours or never pop at all.
However, in a perfect world there would be two separate queues because Solo PvP is fundamentally different than GvG.
That as well, trying to queue with my friends into group BG's (regardless of group size) is basically a mission impossible (and we're by no means a good group, we just wanna pvp together). Our average queue time on pceu is about 35 minutes. Longest we had to wait was 55 minutes. And I agree, in a perfect world with more population you can have separate queues, but I personally rather have quick games that are a bit more unbalanced than wasting most of my evening in a queue.
If you wont have enough groups to sustain a 4 man premade queue that should tell you that not most organized groups don't actually want that mode.
So you'd just be ruining the competitive queue for all the solo players so that 3 or 4 premades can have their fun.
Those 3 or 4 premades will wind up fighting each other thanks to MMR. Or not playing very often if they decide to let their MMR decay so they get better queue times.
If they would just wind up fighting eachother anyway why not give them their own queue and make sure they do though?PC/EU, StamSorc Main0 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭That’s what we have now, and we can clearly see from queue times that it’s not working. Groups can sit in queue for hours.
While I know it’s painful to go up against premades, if the MMR works well (and solo people go in around mid month) then the good premades will quickly be out of the way. But forcing premades to sit in interminable queues for a game mode with an unhealthy population as is… not ideal.
The changes to MMR to reset it periodically and decay it quicker do look good though. That means you won’t essentially be penalized from ending up in a good group.1 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The way I see it, if 2 premades queue then they're going to be fighting each other.
Hopefully the matchmaking is smart enough to match 2 high MMR duos with a high MMR 4man if that's what's available in the queue, rather than shoving 4 solos against them.
But also the high MMR community isn't that big in general and I know when queuing either solo or duo in the past I've wound up with people I know and we jumped into vc and wound up dominating ourselves for a bit. It's not all bad.0 -
chessalavakia_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭tomofhyrule wrote: »That’s what we have now, and we can clearly see from queue times that it’s not working. Groups can sit in queue for hours.
While I know it’s painful to go up against premades, if the MMR works well (and solo people go in around mid month) then the good premades will quickly be out of the way. But forcing premades to sit in interminable queues for a game mode with an unhealthy population as is… not ideal.
The changes to MMR to reset it periodically and decay it quicker do look good though. That means you won’t essentially be penalized from ending up in a good group.
A battleground match requires 12 players in a compatible combination within an acceptable MMR range under the current setup.
If you cannot form a match for hours, it would suggest that either the matchmaker is bugging out or next to nobody is interested in grouping/playing against groups.
If the matchmaker is not bugging out and it is actually taking hours, the number of people that want grouping is simply too small to justify catering to them at the expense of other players.ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »People who aren't competitive should still be allowed to queue with their friends into the 8 man, especially since some game modes are restricted to 8 man only.
You'll be able to do that in the 4v4 Competitive because the MMR will decrease a lot faster (Wheeler said one week) and will also reset once a month.
That's not what that means at all? It's a competitive queue. People that queue there are going to be trying much harder.
The 8v8 queue is for messing around. 99% of the groups that queue for it won't be taking it very seriously at all, it's fine if they're lumped in with everyone else.
If anything, just decrease the group size limit for the 8s queue from 4 to 2.
If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.
What would you say if you were a premade of 2 just trying to hang out for an evening with no serious engagement in PVP other than as one of the activities you choose from to do together?
Should they be forced to queue against premades? Or should BGs/the new system just be removed from the list of potential options.
I'd say that if the MMR will decrease fast and even reset once a month, you'll find what you're looking for in the 4v4 Competitive. I'll probably always check all 3 boxes.
Why does MMR decreasing fast make the premade queue less sweaty?
Because you'll be matched against players with similar MMR. The sweaty premade lives in 4v4, and should have extremely high MMR. If you go there once in a while, you would have low MMR, because it will decrease fast.
There's a lot of assumptions in here:
1) that it's account rather than character based
2) that my friend and I have similar MMRs (what if I normally have a high one but want to have a chill night?)
3) That it doesn't RESET quickly (or everyone just gets thrown back into the same pool)
4) that the sweaty teams don't coordinate/rotate players to keep their total group MMR low enough to club lowbies - this activity becomes easier if folks don't have to wait a long time (a week between 1/day matches as the 'lowbie' dragging down the average isn't too bad, since you get more matches as one of the other 3).
I make no assumptions, just reproduced the info we got from the stream. Your goal seems to be to keep your premade away from 4v4 Competitive, even if it means forcing solos to go against premades. I'll just repeat: If you think anything at all justifies forcing solos to go against premades we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Not really arguing for that exactly (though I'm certainly arguing for reconsidering your stance) - I have no specific desire to put solos against premades.
Rather, I am exploring the problem of "there are duos that are just as casual as solos, but choose to group - how do we cater to them?"
You don't.
The cost of having duos that are significantly below or above average is too high to justify catering to them without a population large enough to lean on MMR heavily.
The below average ones will drag their team down and may lose so much they quickly quit.
The above average ones will wreck games for their opposition.0 -
Major_Mangle✭✭✭✭Major_Mangle wrote: »SkaraMinoc wrote: »4v4 should have a single queue because there isn't enough premade groups to support two separate queues. The Group Queue would have wait times of 1-2+ hours or never pop at all.
However, in a perfect world there would be two separate queues because Solo PvP is fundamentally different than GvG.
That as well, trying to queue with my friends into group BG's (regardless of group size) is basically a mission impossible (and we're by no means a good group, we just wanna pvp together). Our average queue time on pceu is about 35 minutes. Longest we had to wait was 55 minutes. And I agree, in a perfect world with more population you can have separate queues, but I personally rather have quick games that are a bit more unbalanced than wasting most of my evening in a queue.
If you wont have enough groups to sustain a 4 man premade queue that should tell you that not most organized groups don't actually want that mode.
So you'd just be ruining the competitive queue for all the solo players so that 3 or 4 premades can have their fun.
I personally don't see anything "competitive" about a solo queue to be honest. There are a few streamers I watch who play BG's regularly and from what I can see majority of players just avoid other "solo-players" who they're somewhat friends with, simply because they're afraid of causing drama with one another. Instead of fighting other good solo players in these BG's they avoid eachother and go for the easy kills.
From what I can read from some "solo players" they just want to keep doing just what I described above (not saying you do Jierdanit, just the feeling I get when I read some of the feedback on the forums), and not actually wanting a competitive solo queue. Because of they did you'd see these players tryhard eachother (even though they're friends) in the solo queues.Ps4 EU 2016-2020
PC/EU: 2020 -0