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Templar and its lack of love

Dekrypted
Dekrypted
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So I'm trying to honestly wrap my head around the current changes made to the class with these patch notes. (I will preface what is being stated here that it will be from a PvP perspective)

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

If the update is to go live as is, this will mean that Templars will be the only class to not have any kind of working burst ability. I've gone on the PTS and checked. Against mobs where no battle spirit is present, the skill is capable of doing what it describes. When battle spirit is involved, it continues to do no damage. What are these changes going to do for the health of this class when you're giving an easy source of Major Berserk to then cause DKs to just start spamming Chains per this update with Rush of Agony, hitting Talons, and then a leap all with Major Berserk on, which will be extremely disruptive on top of the fact that this ability cannot be dodged or reflected. Is stuff not being considered prior to hitting the pts? Is nobody aware that Rush of Agony does not activate any CC immunity? How is that just constantly being overlooked in terms of what you're capable of doing with it? When I even say this, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who isn't usually on the receiving end, but for entry level PvPers, casuals, or even some competitive groups, this being overlooked while baking in more damage for DKs in this instance is going to do more harm than good.

Try to help me understand...
Nightblades can do 5 light attacks, get free weapon and spell damage, and have a burst ability with a crazy tooltip with their Merciless Resolve.
Dragonknights can cast 3 Ardent Flame abilities and have their Molten Whip get a very good tooltip. Don't forget they're getting extra weapon and spell damage per stack.
Wardens? I think we're all aware of what wardens burst ability through Sub Assault/Deep Fissure can do
Necromancers even can get a decent tooltip on their Blastbones.
Sorcs can build into crit/crit damage and still have something of a working combo that can actually do some damage.
Templars? While it was hitting very hard prior to Firesong dropping, now through Firesong and as this PTS currently stands, are we as templars being told that we're not allowed to have any degree of burst damage like the other classes?

How does this make sense when we're being told to "Play how we want", yet none of the methods of doing so seem to work. Is the damage that templar will be losing over last year and probably going into this year (based on previous updates) mean that the new class will get our old damage just like Wardens got templars access to major mending? I love the game. I play it all the time. I take time to coach RPers, PvErs, and PvPers in what happens in PvP. I'd do it for free, 80 hours a week. People with zero experience on this game, returning players who play templar, or even existing players who want to try this class out are not going to use it. If this was my first class trying out this game and I went into PvP with Backlash, I'd just delete the character because it's not capable of competing with the other toons in terms of burst.

There have been countless threads posted providing feedback relating to how Templars are feeling and this for sure feels like a slap in the face on top of the multiple slaps in the face Templar mains have gotten over the most recent updates. I'm all for change, scaling down some damage here and there, whatever. This just 100% doesn't make any sense.

Unlike a lot of others on the forums, I'm fully aware that there will be no rework to the Jabs animation, I doubt there will be any additional adjustments made to burning light at this. I can go on all day about this and you can even check my comment history on the forums. I've pretty much only started using the forums Post-Firesong and I've been on this game since 2014. I'm just trying to "Play how I want" and seemingly am being told through these updates to just play another class, quit, or suffer.

Some Threads:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621126/templar-underperforming/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621581/purify-power-of-the-light-u36/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/625273/templar-feels-incredibly-bleh-anyone-have-a-fun-effective-build/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/625384/burst-damage-and-healing-templar-stam-mag
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615702/jab-puncturing-sweep-is-useless-in-pvp-because-of-snare-duration-nerf-damage-nerf/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/622843/templar-identity
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/623771/suggestion-for-the-backlash-templar-skill-and-burning-light

Meme for additional context:
20beko6i91an.jpg
Edited by Dekrypted on 14 March 2023 13:26
  • ForumBully
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    I think the problem is that they can't walk back the jabs change, so what Templars were is gone forever to save face for the devs. It's like taking Harmony away from Necro without making anything else better...that class has climbed into the boat with Templars to be forgotten for a few updates.
  • gariondavey
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    I agree with op.
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden
  • Dekrypted
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    ForumBully wrote: »
    I think the problem is that they can't walk back the jabs change, so what Templars were is gone forever to save face for the devs. It's like taking Harmony away from Necro without making anything else better...that class has climbed into the boat with Templars to be forgotten for a few updates.

    Personally they can keep Jabs and their animation they've done. It'd be nice to have a more unique "spear" instead of just using an existing staff, but honestly my focus and the overall focus of this post is on Backlash and its respective morphs. At this point, without a working burst ability, the class is relegated to being a beam bot or a storage character. Nothing really in-between.
  • ForumBully
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    Dekrypted wrote: »
    ForumBully wrote: »
    I think the problem is that they can't walk back the jabs change, so what Templars were is gone forever to save face for the devs. It's like taking Harmony away from Necro without making anything else better...that class has climbed into the boat with Templars to be forgotten for a few updates.

    Personally they can keep Jabs and their animation they've done. It'd be nice to have a more unique "spear" instead of just using an existing staff, but honestly my focus and the overall focus of this post is on Backlash and its respective morphs. At this point, without a working burst ability, the class is relegated to being a beam bot or a storage character. Nothing really in-between.

    And even the beam bot would be better with a Backlash buff. I don't mind rangleplar in principal, but it needs some love
  • MEBengalsFan2001
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    We got something, Purifying Light now does range damage and not melee damage which is actually a nerf, because range damage does 90% of melee damage. So your tool tip should be 10% on the test server.

    Empowering Sweep now gets some extra DOT ticks. Yeah big buff there. LMAO....

    What buffs do templars get for their builds using class only abilities that is good in PVP.

    Biting Jabs - Major Sorcery / Major Brutality
    Sun Fire and its morphs - Major Savagery / Major Prophecy
    Hasty Prayer - Minor Expedition
    Rune Focus and its morphs - Major Resolve

    How about those debuffs..

    Power of Light - Minor breach
    Dark Flare - Major Defile
    Nova and its morph - Major Miam


    Now let's go look at DK...


    Molten Whip - Up to 300 Weapon or spell damage
    Fiery Grip and its morphs - Major Expedition
    Inferno and its morph: Major Prophecy and Savagery
    Dragon Blood and Coagulating Blood: Major Fortitude
    Green Dragon Blood: Major Fortitude, Major Endurance, and Minor Vitality,
    Spiked Armor and its morph: Major Resolve
    Protective Scale and its morph: Project Damage Reduction by 50% for 6 seconds
    Molten Weapon and its morph: Major Brutality and Sorcery
    Obsidian Shield and its morph: Major Mending

    Now Onto Debuffs.
    Dragon Stand - Major Defile
    Stone Giant: Stagger
    Noxious Breath: Major Breach

    What I didn't list is snare effects because the reality is that the templar snare effects are garbage when compared to that of a DK 70% reduction in movement with Ash or 30% reduction for 3 seconds from the Warmth passive vs. 40% from Puncturing Strikes and its morph which is what 0.5 seconds.

    Just look at the two and you can see that DK have a clear advantage and this didn't dive into all the passives for each class. It gets more maddening when you look at the passives with DK getting better passives.

    Now Empower Chains is being changed and given Major Berserk. Seriously who even looks at class balance.

    My warden is similar to the DK in buffs and debuffs. It makes me sick knowing my templar garbage compared to other classes. Sorcer is in the same boat as the Templar. Both need a full class rework.
  • IncultaWolf
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    You're forced to be a range kill stealing beam bot now on templar, because that one ability is the only thing that does damage. Now necro, my main class, is now in the same spot, they took away harmony and then nerfed the synergy on top of that, which was literally one of the only things that allowed necro to do damage in pvp. How long are dk, warden, and nb going to be the most overperforming classes in pvp? I honestly laughed when I saw dks getting free major berserk compared to templars only getting a few seconds extra on a dot ability. Templar definitely needs a burst ability again, not fair when nightblades are hitting 20k+ spec bows from just light attacking 5 times. Where's the balance?
  • Stx
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    I can’t believe there are no changes to jabs or the jabs animation. Very disappointed. Templars have never been in this poor a state.
  • lQrukl
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    1) Poor jabs and weak jabs animation
    2) PL is useless in healing morph, mages are forced to use stam PotL
    3) PL/PotL is useless in general in PvP
    4) No unique support buffs in PvE (Minor Sorcery == Minor Brutality)
    5) Many skills are useless and don't get sufficient attention for years.
    I saw about 4 or 5 changes of Dark Flare for last 3 years, and this is the skill that noone still use in PvP or PvE!
    Also Radiant Ward gets no viable reworks and provides 6k damage shield, while sorc's shield is buffed from ~12k to 14k...
    6) Beam bug interrupt is still not fixed. If you get interrupt while casting radiant destruction (& any morph), you denied to cast ANY ability!

    Looks like someone in dev team just hates us ;_;
    Edited by lQrukl on 30 January 2023 22:36
  • maxjapank
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    Let's not disregard the animation change. Yes, reality is likely that they will never give us a better animation. But there are a lot of players who do care about the animation and are extremely unhappy with it. As Templars, we should strive to get as much as we can for the class, dmg buffs and class identity related stuff. Right now, Templar is not in a good place. So let's ask for everything rather than saying we will give up A if you give us B. No, we deserve both A and B.
  • From_Siberia
    From_Siberia
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    Developer dude who made nerf changes to templar, made jabs animation worse and now buff dk with major berserk for 10 sec (and buffed nb before) - you're a real genius troll hahah

    In our small Templar community, notion has formed that Templars must suffer. Jesus suffered, we must suffer too lmfao!

    As the Bible says, "If anyone slaps you on right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also". Therefore plar, having received some nerfs, should receive additional! B)

    Edited by From_Siberia on 31 January 2023 02:22
  • UnassumingNoob
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    Completely agree OP and I will be going full soap box when I get some free time
  • Suna_Ye_Sunnabe
    Suna_Ye_Sunnabe
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    I'll never be invested in this game again until I can play my main character of 8000 hours and not look like, and feel like, a fool doing so... revert the changes to Templars and the horrible animation.
    Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna
  • Faulgor
    Faulgor
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    They just hate Good characters on the alignment chart. Which is also why they keep adding evil classes like Necromancers and Daedra worshippers.

    Nightblade - Murder assassin, evil
    Sorcerer - Daedra summoner, evil
    Dragonknight - clone of Akaviri invaders, evil
    Warden - eh you get a pass

    The light of the Divines has never been more dim.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • Minno
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    haven't played in a while but it's likely the Templar is always looked at from a position where it was poorly designed. For example players like to think Templar was it's strongest during 1tam or later but that iteration of Templar is based on the version when right before IC released they made changes to make it more attractive for pve damage dealer. The version that was the best was the one that had the kit for pvp defense that was designed around their house playstyle. You had to do some funky stuff to get it to work, but when it did it made players think twice about hitting one.

    It never recovered and I used to ask the devs for design intent descriptions of the classes to help look at balance changes better but had no luck. iterative design is important but it can escape you fast if you don't have that base to fall back on and if you submit to pressure changes.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • mmtaniac
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    They just don't know how to fix templar ,because templar is specific it's like Irelia from lol if you nerf too much it's useless if you buff a little it's too op, this class need complete rework of some skill to work. Some skills need complete revamp from scratch. Retinking how class should work.
    Edited by mmtaniac on 31 January 2023 13:38
  • Minno
    Minno
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    mmtaniac wrote: »
    They just don't know how to fix templar ,because templar is specific it's like Irelia from lol if you nerf too much it's useless if you buff a little it's too op, this class need complete rework of some skill to work. Some skills need complete revamp from scratch. Retinking how class should work.

    well the issue isnt that they know how to fix templar, is that the templar had so many mechanics that when they went ahead and nerfed one mechanic, it messed with the templar. For example, when they changed how AOE/DOTs worked, they nerfed templar's core skills.

    The other thing, that shouldnt be a surprise to anyone or in any way seen as a negative comment, is that when they push a major expansion update, the templar saw some nerfs. But none as major as when they added the warden and they nerfed a bunch of stuff to make the warden more attractive as a paid class.

    They know how to fix templar. But I would like to see a rundown of the classes from the dev perspective on how they view each class. For example, classic wow came out in 2019 and ever since then the old designer jumped back into the public eye to discuss how major parts of the old 2004 game were designed and the philosophy. Kevin Jordan ran through many classes on a few podcasts that had him go through and explain that while certain specs underperformed in raids they were good enough or better than others in leveling/pvp.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Einar_Hrafnarsson
    Einar_Hrafnarsson
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    Templar needs love be it from dps or healingperspective. It just drowns slowly and agonizing compared to Godmode DK
  • maxjapank
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    Minno wrote: »
    But I would like to see a rundown of the classes from the dev perspective on how they view each class.

    I would also be interested in hearing how they view each Class's identity. I think that original designer had a vision of each class, but over time, that vision has been lost somewhat.

    I also could get behind the "if you come in my house, then it will hurt you" playstyle. But partly to do that, we needed snares to work in order to offset our own snares from channeled spells. Over time, our snares became less potent. Puncturing Strikes became a 0.5 second snare which just isn't enough now. Our passive snare from using Cleansing Ritual was taken away. Reflective light gives a snare for 3 secs. So we are kind of stuck with Living Dark if we want any kind of lasting snare.

    Without snares, I feel I have been forced to play a ranged Templar playstyle, almost like a Sorcerer, but no heals by attacking at all.

    There is so much they could do to make Templars more viable. But there seems to be a lack of vision or maybe even the majority of those in charge are only playing Templars as healers so they are unaware of playing a Templar as a dps, in both pvp and pve. I don't know. I've never been one to believe that developers buff the classes they play. Many would have you believe that they all play DKs and NBs. But perhaps there is some truth that developers are not playing their own game with each class, experiencing all three roles of tank, dps, and healer in both pvp and pve. So they are just a little unaware of where the pain areas are.

  • Minno
    Minno
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    maxjapank wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    But I would like to see a rundown of the classes from the dev perspective on how they view each class.

    I would also be interested in hearing how they view each Class's identity. I think that original designer had a vision of each class, but over time, that vision has been lost somewhat.

    I also could get behind the "if you come in my house, then it will hurt you" playstyle. But partly to do that, we needed snares to work in order to offset our own snares from channeled spells. Over time, our snares became less potent. Puncturing Strikes became a 0.5 second snare which just isn't enough now. Our passive snare from using Cleansing Ritual was taken away. Reflective light gives a snare for 3 secs. So we are kind of stuck with Living Dark if we want any kind of lasting snare.

    Without snares, I feel I have been forced to play a ranged Templar playstyle, almost like a Sorcerer, but no heals by attacking at all.

    There is so much they could do to make Templars more viable. But there seems to be a lack of vision or maybe even the majority of those in charge are only playing Templars as healers so they are unaware of playing a Templar as a dps, in both pvp and pve. I don't know. I've never been one to believe that developers buff the classes they play. Many would have you believe that they all play DKs and NBs. But perhaps there is some truth that developers are not playing their own game with each class, experiencing all three roles of tank, dps, and healer in both pvp and pve. So they are just a little unaware of where the pain areas are.

    gotta remember back in 2014 the only snares the templar had was on vamps bane/reflective light and solar disturbance. They had ALOT of cc attached to the aadric spear line though, like the knockback on jabs, jav, shards, and gap closer. And we lost off balance stagger off blinding light.

    i always go back to old 2014 videos and watch the slower gameplay and miss it lol. Lots of shield casts and going in cast times with on demand reflects/cc to offset the lack of an execute.
    https://youtu.be/26T5xjIXyeU
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • maxjapank
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    It's also been disappointing to see a Templar's ability to purge being given to anyone who wears Mara's Balm, which some are using as a back bar. I always thought that was a Templar's strength, being able to purge, something others couldn't until they gave it to Warden. Now anyone has this ability combined with all of their own unique abilities which Templars could use.
  • mmtaniac
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    Purge should be templar only thing ,this way we become unique. I don't see set that grant shalks with 10k armor penetration and 15k damage per every 2 seconds. But purge set are here.
  • Stx
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    The simple fact that these patch notes have nothing listed for jabs or blazing spear is a massive red flag that ZoS doesn’t know what they’re doing.

    The fact that a ground targeted aoe dot ability deals more direct damage dps when used as a spammable than.. our spammable ability. Is F’n hilarious. I mean it’s really not funny, it’s sad. But it’s hilarious.
  • Dekrypted
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    I run a guild and hang with alot of templar mains and have never seen a group of players more demoralized than they are right now.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno can you or anyone else imagine running 12000+ damage and seeing your "burst" ability hit for 3k?

    This is painful.
  • Suna_Ye_Sunnabe
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    Dekrypted wrote: »
    I run a guild and hang with alot of templar mains and have never seen a group of players more demoralized than they are right now.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno can you or anyone else imagine running 12000+ damage and seeing your "burst" ability hit for 3k?

    This is painful.

    Demoralized is certainly the tip of the iceberg for most of us Templars.
    Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna
  • xthrshx
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    maxjapank wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    But I would like to see a rundown of the classes from the dev perspective on how they view each class.

    I would also be interested in hearing how they view each Class's identity.

    They will never do this.

    Remember when they nerfed DK sustain and said it was because they always envisioned DK power coming at the cost of poor sustain? And this was after years of DK having the best sustain in the game. In fact, DK sustain was so good that people were deactivating their resource-return passives in order to parse with Bahsei. (Meanwhile Templar could just barely get through a parse before hitting 0 mag.)

    What they say they wanted all along was literally the exact polar opposite of what we had. Like, you couldn’t even invent a class that was further from their stated ideal if you tried.

    Now imagine they share their vision for every class. It will only expose the fact that they have no idea what they’re doing.
  • The_Titan_Tim
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    xthrshx wrote: »
    maxjapank wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    But I would like to see a rundown of the classes from the dev perspective on how they view each class.

    I would also be interested in hearing how they view each Class's identity.

    They will never do this.

    Remember when they nerfed DK sustain and said it was because they always envisioned DK power coming at the cost of poor sustain? And this was after years of DK having the best sustain in the game. In fact, DK sustain was so good that people were deactivating their resource-return passives in order to parse with Bahsei. (Meanwhile Templar could just barely get through a parse before hitting 0 mag.)

    What they say they wanted all along was literally the exact polar opposite of what we had. Like, you couldn’t even invent a class that was further from their stated ideal if you tried.

    Now imagine they share their vision for every class. It will only expose the fact that they have no idea what they’re doing.

    Yup. High Isle.

    g5v6sv7hvahl.png
    Edited by The_Titan_Tim on 2 February 2023 00:13
  • virtus753
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    lQrukl wrote: »
    6) Beam bug interrupt is still not fixed. If you get interrupt while casting radiant destruction (& any morph), you denied to cast ANY ability!

    Looks like someone in dev team just hates us ;_;

    This is not a bug, or at least it's not one limited to beam. If you get interrupted while channeling a skill, it will go on cooldown (be disabled) for the length of the channel. So if you get interrupted during Radiant Oppression/Glory, that's 1.8 seconds for which it's not available. Other skills can be cast during that time.

    It is definitely not unique to beam: if you get interrupted during Channeled Acceleration, that goes on cooldown for 1.3 seconds.

    Don't get me wrong - it's highly irritating and very problematic for a class that now depends entirely on that one skill, but it's consistent with other channeled abilities, from what I can see.
  • Udrath
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    They need to take the cool down off burning light and the class would be much stronger. And maybe revert it back to aedric only abilities so it’s not OP. Idk why they changed this passive in the first place lol, it was fine.

    Currently been doing well by stacking spell damage for PVP cause of minor sorcery (around 7k), and templar also benefit a lot from using draugrkin on the front bar. It’s like an extra 1300 damage after each full jab channel. Templar also has access to an unblockable stun that ignores resistances. Binding javelin is really underrated.

    Backlash initial damage should be changed into a DOT and then do direct damage, like a reverse dawn breaker lol

    Keep the faith!
  • Dekrypted
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    This was warned about in the prior pts before Firesong dropped. This cannot continue into another patch.

    tfrbuvnifovt.jpg
    (bump)
  • Draggimus
    Draggimus
    Soul Shriven
    I'm not particularly attached to jabs as being the go-to build, I enjoy bowplar quite a bit, archers are my favorite archetype and stacking pop skills like backlash are always really fun.

    But it's not very fun to burst someone for like 80% of their HP in a backlash and it only does 2500, when other delayed burst skills would guarantee that kill.

    Whether it's bugged or just seriously undertuned, class needs some looking at very badly.
    Not just backlash (for example, I think the interaction between jabs and Mara is incredibly stupid), but that's a major pain point.

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