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New Q4 system will be some kind of ‘Endless Dungeon‘

  • SilverBride
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Well if it's a buddy system, then there's not likely to be a duo finder.... unless Rich expects you to be buddies by the time you are.... finished?

    I suspect that "buddy" may be another player or a Companion.
    PCNA
  • Jaraal
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Well if it's a buddy system, then there's not likely to be a duo finder.... unless Rich expects you to be buddies by the time you are.... finished?

    I suspect that "buddy" may be another player or a Companion.

    Well I certainly don’t consider my groupmates from the dungeon finder or my companions to be my buddies, so it’s probably a bring a friend kind of deal. But I’m still curious to know how the dungeon is supposed to be terminated. Will there be a death limit? Die 5 times and get auto kicked? How will voluntary terminations work, if one wants to quit but the other doesn’t? And if solos are locked out, will we be able to pay someone to be our buddy for five minutes until we get in and they port out?

    Edited by Jaraal on 1 February 2023 22:04
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • thedocbwarren
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    I'm trying to understand this a bit. I've not played any of the games mentioned in the thread comparing this so: What is an "endless Dungeon" really? How can that be endless? How would one play this? I'm not sure I have any fears or concerns, only confusion.

    Is this some kind of generated room system where something is generated in some random place with no real location on map? Is this something like No Man's Sky where it builds a world off of guidelines and makes something "unique"-ish? Is this a maze with scenes and enemies and some kind of loot? Is there even a story or is that random too where it could be anything in the game mashed together?

    If it's any of that I think that's aggressive in scope and I question that. Just trying to understand.
  • SilverBride
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    And if solos are locked out, will we be able to pay someone to be our buddy for five minutes until we get in and they port out?

    Solos aren't locked out of other dungeons so I don't expect to be locked out of the endless dungeon, either
    PCNA
  • Jaraal
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    And if solos are locked out, will we be able to pay someone to be our buddy for five minutes until we get in and they port out?

    Solos aren't locked out of other dungeons so I don't expect to be locked out of the endless dungeon, either

    Solos are locked out by two or more person mechanics. Will we be able to invite friends or guildies in to step on pressure plates for us, like in current dungeons? Will we be able to solo it for an hour and get increasing rewards, and then invite others to progress further? Can we sell carries, like advertising in zone chat “Will grind endless dungeon for 50 levels then invite you in for 100k” or something like that?

    So many questions.

    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Jaraal
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    And if solos are locked out, will we be able to pay someone to be our buddy for five minutes until we get in and they port out?

    Solos aren't locked out of other dungeons so I don't expect to be locked out of the endless dungeon, either

    Also, Rich said they were for “you and a buddy.” I think if they were designed for solos as well, he would have mentioned that as a selling feature. I don’t think it was accidentally omitted. Would be nice to have clarification, though.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Alinhbo_Tyaka
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    I'm trying to understand this a bit. I've not played any of the games mentioned in the thread comparing this so: What is an "endless Dungeon" really? How can that be endless? How would one play this? I'm not sure I have any fears or concerns, only confusion.

    Is this some kind of generated room system where something is generated in some random place with no real location on map? Is this something like No Man's Sky where it builds a world off of guidelines and makes something "unique"-ish? Is this a maze with scenes and enemies and some kind of loot? Is there even a story or is that random too where it could be anything in the game mashed together?

    If it's any of that I think that's aggressive in scope and I question that. Just trying to understand.

    We don't really know what ESO will implement. I've had limited experience with what FFXIV calls deep dungeons and WoW's Torghast. I didn't really care for either.

    In the case of FFXIV you have a set number of floors you need to complete before being able to move up to the next section. The floor layouts are procedurally generated and will change with each run. I only ran Palace of the Dead so can only speak to it. It can be run with party sizes of 1 to 4 players. You must complete floors 1 - 50 to be able to advance to floors 51 - 100 and finish 100 to be able access floors 101 - 200. As I recall your progress is saved after completing the boss for each 10 floors. It uses a parallel leveling and gear system where you start at level 1 and become more powerful as you level up, find gear and find buffs. There are some requirements of how your party can be put together as well but I'm not sure what those requirements are. The idea was they would continue to add floor groups with them getting harder with each update. My guess since they are adding new deep dungeons is at some point adding floors becomes impractical so they stop and start a new deep dungeon.

    In Torghast each level has five rooms you have to complete with mini bosses at the end of each level and a final boss on the 5th floor. They are tuned for 1 - 5 players and you have to get a minimum score to unlock the next level. I never progressed very far as I quit playing WoW shortly after Shadowlands came out. As I recall the paths through each level's floors were the same though the fights and mobs varied. The idea is you keep advancing to ever harder levels as they are added but I can't tell you if they capped the number of levels or not.

    I know there are more nuances to both but this should give you a general idea of two implementations of what folks call endless dungeons.
  • w002exp
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    Never played WOW and not familiar with Torghast, but this could be very successful if implemented like Rifts in D3--where it becomes another means of pushing build limits and composition.

    I'm also enticed by the prospect that it is build for 2-player game play. Duo' is my favorite manner to clear dungeons as there is something really satisfying about working in a well coordinated group of 2 that just isnt there with 4.

    Lastly, lots of people asking for battle spire content for a long time. This could be an interesting lore play if thats the route that go. We know the battle spire had access to multiple planes of oblivion through portals and gates.
  • OtarTheMad
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    Idk, waiting for more information but I hear “Endless Dungeon” and the first thing that comes to mind is ZOS is finally making a grind spot. It’s like a parent giving in to an annoying kid “Fine, here.”

    Maybe that’s just me. I don’t mind the content being cut down if it means a smoother game/releases. I guess we will see when this year ends if this new format is going to work.

    Be better if working from home, back orders and all the BS covid started didn’t delay things so badly.
  • Hurbster
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    Hopefully more Palace of the Dead than Torghast.
    So they raised the floor and lowered the ceiling. Except the ceiling has spikes in it now and the floor is also lava.
  • Dragonredux
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    Besides the Torghast fearmongering, I don't think ESO has a system where you are forced to grind something over and over in terms of gearing unless they're an item set exclusive to this content. The closest this game has are Mythic leads and even then that's a one time grind.

    I have several questions that comes to mind after I suppose digesting it a bit more
    • Are players able to do this content solo? Solo with a companion? Or just restricted to two players only?
    • If players are able to do a solo or duo, are there going to be separate leaderboards or will there be leaderboards for this content?
    • Are there lives or team lives? If they are team lives, do a companion count towards it?
    • If a player or team crashes or disconnect, will the run be considered a failure or will there be a grace period?
    • How quickly will the difficulty scale?
  • alternatelder
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    Besides the Torghast fearmongering, I don't think ESO has a system where you are forced to grind something over and over in terms of gearing unless they're an item set exclusive to this content. The closest this game has are Mythic leads and even then that's a one time grind.

    I have several questions that comes to mind after I suppose digesting it a bit more
    • Are players able to do this content solo? Solo with a companion? Or just restricted to two players only?
    • If players are able to do a solo or duo, are there going to be separate leaderboards or will there be leaderboards for this content?
    • Are there lives or team lives? If they are team lives, do a companion count towards it?
    • If a player or team crashes or disconnect, will the run be considered a failure or will there be a grace period?
    • How quickly will the difficulty scale?

    Literally the only info we have on this is his quote: "How about an endless dungeon with a buddy". I don't know why people are asking these questions right now.
  • colossalvoids
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    Besides the Torghast fearmongering, I don't think ESO has a system where you are forced to grind something over and over in terms of gearing unless they're an item set exclusive to this content. The closest this game has are Mythic leads and even then that's a one time grind.

    I have several questions that comes to mind after I suppose digesting it a bit more
    • Are players able to do this content solo? Solo with a companion? Or just restricted to two players only?
    • If players are able to do a solo or duo, are there going to be separate leaderboards or will there be leaderboards for this content?
    • Are there lives or team lives? If they are team lives, do a companion count towards it?
    • If a player or team crashes or disconnect, will the run be considered a failure or will there be a grace period?
    • How quickly will the difficulty scale?

    Literally the only info we have on this is his quote: "How about an endless dungeon with a buddy". I don't know why people are asking these questions right now.

    And we won't get much info before chapter release I'm pretty sure. Kinda too early but normal to speculate which game 's feature they're likely snitched this time.
  • Syldras
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    And we won't get much info before chapter release I'm pretty sure. Kinda too early but normal to speculate which game 's feature they're likely snitched this time.

    I think they said in the announcement stream that they'll tell us more in the 2nd half of this year. Although I wonder if it wouldn't be a better decision to give us at least a few facts earlier, so they can already get a bit of feedback before the whole thing is almost finished.
    @Syldras | PC | EU
    The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
    Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
    Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
    Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
  • colossalvoids
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    Syldras wrote: »
    And we won't get much info before chapter release I'm pretty sure. Kinda too early but normal to speculate which game 's feature they're likely snitched this time.

    I think they said in the announcement stream that they'll tell us more in the 2nd half of this year. Although I wonder if it wouldn't be a better decision to give us at least a few facts earlier, so they can already get a bit of feedback before the whole thing is almost finished.

    Honestly I don't think anyone could give reasonable feedback without having the whole thing in perspective. Some aspects can look rather questionable without knowing details first.
  • Sidereum
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    This thing better be the Battlespire or else I'm finna be mad
    PC-EU | @Sidereum
    Favorite race: Imperial
    Favorite class: Warden
    Favorite alliance: Daggerfall Covenant
    Favorite zone: Gold Coast
    Favorite chapter: Blackwood
  • XSTRONG
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    They should let us know more about the endless dungeon soon before chapter, as they said its a tentpole system.

    For me as Swedish speaking, a tentpole system is pretty big stuff. A stick that hold up a big tent lol
    Edited by XSTRONG on 4 February 2023 19:26
  • Shagreth
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    Imagine thinking that every feature should be what people want, that would turn the game in a dystopic mess. I have a feeling that the endless dungeon will be a pleasant surprise. Hopefully it's in the apocrypha.
  • WiseSky
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    Make it like Sword Art Online...

    Ever level gets harder and you have to figure out a puzzle to advance each level.

    Legendary rewards! The higher you go up!

    After level 50 Every time your team dies, Lose CP

    After level 65 Every time your team dies, you drop your whole inventory, that can be picked up by the next team.

    After level 80 Every time your team dies, one of your gear Is drop to be looted by the next team.

    After level 90 perma death is possible

    After level 99 if you die, zos can send you a 1M $ bill you have to pay on top of deleting your account.

    6jq1gzy.png

    Immersive Quests Addon
    Wish to Quest without Quest Way Markers? ''Talk to the Hooded Figure'' Turns into ''Talk to the Hooded Figure, who is feeding the chickens near the southeastern gate in the city of Daggerfall in Glenumbra.'' If you Wish To write bread crumbs clues for quest for other players to experience come join the team!
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  • Seraphayel
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    XSTRONG wrote: »
    They should let us know more about the endless dungeon soon before chapter, as they said its a tentpole system.

    For me as Swedish speaking, a tentpole system is pretty big stuff. A stick that hold up a big tent lol

    They already told us we're getting more info later during the second half of this year. We have barely any information about the Chapter, I highly doubt they're giving us a lot more details about the Q4 system (most likely they haven't even figured everything out yet). I guess they could do an FAQ and answer some burning questions, but I really wouldn't expect more than that.
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • Jaraal
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    WiseSky wrote: »
    Legendary rewards! The higher you go up!

    And that's the inherent problem with this kind of system. Only the best players will be good enough to get the best gear.

    With the current system, average players have access to the top gear due to the grouping mechanic of dungeons, multiplayer arenas, and trials. And even the vet solo arena gear is only marginally better than the normal versions.

    Now, given ZOS's history of "balancing" (nerfing) class skills, weapon skills, CP, and gear based on the performance of elite players, do we really want to have them making combat changes based on gear only attainable by the 99th percentile? It's only reasonable that the absolute best gear that drops in the endless dungeon should be easily available to the majority of players. Anything else is just setting them up for balance nightmares.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Seraphayel
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    WiseSky wrote: »
    Legendary rewards! The higher you go up!

    And that's the inherent problem with this kind of system. Only the best players will be good enough to get the best gear.

    With the current system, average players have access to the top gear due to the grouping mechanic of dungeons, multiplayer arenas, and trials. And even the vet solo arena gear is only marginally better than the normal versions.

    Now, given ZOS's history of "balancing" (nerfing) class skills, weapon skills, CP, and gear based on the performance of elite players, do we really want to have them making combat changes based on gear only attainable by the 99th percentile? It's only reasonable that the absolute best gear that drops in the endless dungeon should be easily available to the majority of players. Anything else is just setting them up for balance nightmares.

    It's a problem, but the only reasonable choice for something like this. If the endless dungeon doesn't offer unique and really "legendary" rewards for the best players, it's a pointless system and dead on arrival. The same if there is just one mode and you can enter the dungeon below level 50.

    This system really should be only focused on max level players and only be for them. This game has so so so so so much stuff for low level players, it's time that end game players have a unique type of content that's just for them and balanced adequately. What this game lacks is challenge and this could be their chance to introduce it. The moment they make this system for everyone, it will fail. Basically everything else besides trials in this game is for everyone (and that might be 99% of its entire content).
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • Jaraal
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    WiseSky wrote: »
    Legendary rewards! The higher you go up!

    And that's the inherent problem with this kind of system. Only the best players will be good enough to get the best gear.

    With the current system, average players have access to the top gear due to the grouping mechanic of dungeons, multiplayer arenas, and trials. And even the vet solo arena gear is only marginally better than the normal versions.

    Now, given ZOS's history of "balancing" (nerfing) class skills, weapon skills, CP, and gear based on the performance of elite players, do we really want to have them making combat changes based on gear only attainable by the 99th percentile? It's only reasonable that the absolute best gear that drops in the endless dungeon should be easily available to the majority of players. Anything else is just setting them up for balance nightmares.

    It's a problem, but the only reasonable choice for something like this. If the endless dungeon doesn't offer unique and really "legendary" rewards for the best players, it's a pointless system and dead on arrival. The same if there is just one mode and you can enter the dungeon below level 50.

    This system really should be only focused on max level players and only be for them. This game has so so so so so much stuff for low level players, it's time that end game players have a unique type of content that's just for them and balanced adequately. What this game lacks is challenge and this could be their chance to introduce it. The moment they make this system for everyone, it will fail. Basically everything else besides trials in this game is for everyone (and that might be 99% of its entire content).

    Ok, so now when you apply for top end trials, instead of having a list of meta sets and achievements to qualify, now you will have to show possession of gear only available to the 99th percentile. Cyro, IC, and battlegrounds will be dominated by exclusive gear-wearing solos and ball groups. Tales of Tribute leaderboards will be all elite endless dungeon deck wielders.

    You don't see how this could be a problem? If you think the complaining by the people losing to the current meta isn't loud enough, just wait.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Seraphayel
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    WiseSky wrote: »
    Legendary rewards! The higher you go up!

    And that's the inherent problem with this kind of system. Only the best players will be good enough to get the best gear.

    With the current system, average players have access to the top gear due to the grouping mechanic of dungeons, multiplayer arenas, and trials. And even the vet solo arena gear is only marginally better than the normal versions.

    Now, given ZOS's history of "balancing" (nerfing) class skills, weapon skills, CP, and gear based on the performance of elite players, do we really want to have them making combat changes based on gear only attainable by the 99th percentile? It's only reasonable that the absolute best gear that drops in the endless dungeon should be easily available to the majority of players. Anything else is just setting them up for balance nightmares.

    It's a problem, but the only reasonable choice for something like this. If the endless dungeon doesn't offer unique and really "legendary" rewards for the best players, it's a pointless system and dead on arrival. The same if there is just one mode and you can enter the dungeon below level 50.

    This system really should be only focused on max level players and only be for them. This game has so so so so so much stuff for low level players, it's time that end game players have a unique type of content that's just for them and balanced adequately. What this game lacks is challenge and this could be their chance to introduce it. The moment they make this system for everyone, it will fail. Basically everything else besides trials in this game is for everyone (and that might be 99% of its entire content).

    Ok, so now when you apply for top end trials, instead of having a list of meta sets and achievements to qualify, now you will have to show possession of gear only available to the 99th percentile. Cyro, IC, and battlegrounds will be dominated by exclusive gear-wearing solos and ball groups. Tales of Tribute leaderboards will be all elite endless dungeon deck wielders.

    You don't see how this could be a problem? If you think the complaining by the people losing to the current meta isn't loud enough, just wait.

    I really don't see what the one thing has to do with the other. Do the hardest content, get the best gear. That's basically the status quo for each and every game. Vet trial gear is still exclusive, the "best" gear from the endless dungeon would be the same as the vet trial gear - it's basically the solo equivalent of getting that. And for that to happen the dungeon needs to reward gear in the first place, something Torghast (the WoW endless dungeon) did not.
    Edited by Seraphayel on 5 February 2023 11:15
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • Jaraal
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    WiseSky wrote: »
    Legendary rewards! The higher you go up!

    And that's the inherent problem with this kind of system. Only the best players will be good enough to get the best gear.

    With the current system, average players have access to the top gear due to the grouping mechanic of dungeons, multiplayer arenas, and trials. And even the vet solo arena gear is only marginally better than the normal versions.

    Now, given ZOS's history of "balancing" (nerfing) class skills, weapon skills, CP, and gear based on the performance of elite players, do we really want to have them making combat changes based on gear only attainable by the 99th percentile? It's only reasonable that the absolute best gear that drops in the endless dungeon should be easily available to the majority of players. Anything else is just setting them up for balance nightmares.

    It's a problem, but the only reasonable choice for something like this. If the endless dungeon doesn't offer unique and really "legendary" rewards for the best players, it's a pointless system and dead on arrival. The same if there is just one mode and you can enter the dungeon below level 50.

    This system really should be only focused on max level players and only be for them. This game has so so so so so much stuff for low level players, it's time that end game players have a unique type of content that's just for them and balanced adequately. What this game lacks is challenge and this could be their chance to introduce it. The moment they make this system for everyone, it will fail. Basically everything else besides trials in this game is for everyone (and that might be 99% of its entire content).

    Ok, so now when you apply for top end trials, instead of having a list of meta sets and achievements to qualify, now you will have to show possession of gear only available to the 99th percentile. Cyro, IC, and battlegrounds will be dominated by exclusive gear-wearing solos and ball groups. Tales of Tribute leaderboards will be all elite endless dungeon deck wielders.

    You don't see how this could be a problem? If you think the complaining by the people losing to the current meta isn't loud enough, just wait.

    I really don't see what the one thing has to do with the other. Do the hardest content, get the best gear. That's basically the status quo for each and every game. Vet trial gear is still exclusive, the "best" gear from the endless dungeon would be the same as the vet trial gear - it's basically the solo equivalent of getting that. And for that to happen the dungeon needs to reward gear in the first place, something Torghast (the WoW endless dungeon) did not.

    Well that's fine if the top gear from endless dungeon is not more powerful than what you can get from trials. And low skill people can and do buy trial carries. But you were saying you hoped it scaled so that only the best players would get the best rewards. And if the best rewards from some sort of 50-100-150+ level dungeon grind is no more powerful than what you can get from any trial, then elite players will probably save their time and do something more productive.

    I could see it being a cosmetics/QOL/title/achievements generator. Or mediocre gear. But I don't see it being the farm system for the most exclusive gear in the game. I guess we'll find out in a few months.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Red_Feather
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    I wish we got a system for public dungeons that added modifiers and daily quests. Public dungeons are more open and lively than instanced dungeons, but even public dungeons can get repetitive because the monsters and conditions don't change.

    Modifiers could challenge and refresh the experience. Modifiers could be client-side in visibility, so that every player in a public dungeon is sharing the same space but some people are facing more complicated mechanics than the player next to them.

    Daily quests in public dungeons could open up a progression system. We got daily quests for delves, dungeons, world bosses, world events and they offer interesting achievements/motifs/titles. Public dungeons are being neglected!

    Imagine a public dungeon being so active again. Full of players and each player having their own difficulty experience based on the modifiers and daily quest they have active.
    Edited by Red_Feather on 5 February 2023 15:48
  • ForzaRammer
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    Endless dungeon? More like a torture device
  • markulrich1966
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    I bet it will be apocrypha.
    Endless corridors filled with books, randomly opening new corridors to the left or right.
    Now and then a larger hall with some kind of public dungeon like miniboss.

    Challenges might be to collect/kill 10 or 100 of these creatures hidden within books, giving you a small reward at each mark, and the drops from the minibosses.

    I found apocrypha somewhat claustrophopic in skyrim, so I am not excited if it will turn out to be that way.

    Edited by markulrich1966 on 6 February 2023 17:38
  • BlueRaven
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    I get the impression that the endless dungeon is aimed squarely at the “harder overland content” crowd.

    I am hoping the dungeon has a number of endless “levels” of difficulty from very easy to endlessly difficult the lower down the “stairs” they go. But with each level being an endless level in itself, people could find a difficulty they are comfortable with and just stay on that level.

    If I was designing the dungeon I would have all of the bosses on all levels have the same loot tables with items that drop having various levels of rarity.
    The easy level will drop one item, but each additional level of difficulty adding an additional item of loot. This way all gear is available to all levels of play, while still rewarding people on harder difficulties by adding additional “rolls” at the loot table.

    •••

    TBH this all feels very niche to me. I only do dungeons when I want to unlock a furniture item at the undaunted vendor, and I only do trials when invited (I don’t seek them out).

    I really hope they don’t put any housing items in there as I really, really want to avoid this activity like I avoid bgs. (And there is s lead drop in bgs I desperately would love to unlock, and I still do not want to do them).
  • AlexanderDeLarge
    AlexanderDeLarge
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    The problem with the endless dungeon feature is that based off the last ten years of The Elder Scrolls Online... Zenimax Online Studios hasn't done anything to convince me as a player that they're the kind of studio that should be doing something like this. They have the terrible habit of creating something new and abandoning it almost immediately to work on the next big thing.

    I mentioned this in the veteran overland thread tonight. Even if we're talking procgen or tilesets, it will get old so unless they're committed to expanding on this feature for years to come, I'd much rather they spent their efforts elsewhere.
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 7 paid expansions. 22 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the vast majority of this game.

    "ESO doesn't need a harder overland" on YouTube for a video of a naked level 3 character AFKing in front of a bear for a minute and a half before dying
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