"PVP" and "Cyrodiil" Gets you Banned on Twitch

deleted221106-002999

SilverBride wrote: »

I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?

Of course, happy to help, with suitable redactions of my own, which I hope you will understand:

This is an awesome improvement and greatly appreciated although I'm still unsure of what the numbers mean.

I'm prety sure this is the same data that a mod would see when reviewing an account; my only concern if this is the case is a potential skewing of consequence - benefit of the doubt' or 'innocence until proven guilty' might be compromised by the fact an account has extant warnings associated with it.

Also, as discussed elsewhere within the thread, there doesn't appear to be any indication if this reflects or includes any neutral/positive forum contributions. I very much doubt it, but it is encouraging to note that there is some sort of expiry which helps in personal account evaluation. What is still not clear to me is the formal warning system itself as that seems to possess an uni-directional entropy towards extinction - once started it seems it can only remain static or increase to the ban-point.

It's fair to say that at this point my forum account seems to be accelerating towards terminal velocity. I'm equally certain that those who understand how to 'play the forum' and being aware of this with any negative prejudice whatsoever would be only too delighted to boost that process.

Elsonso

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?

Of course, happy to help, with suitable redactions of my own, which I hope you will understand:

Expires. Interesting. I assume that the points expire on a date?

SilverBride

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?

Of course, happy to help, with suitable redactions of my own, which I hope you will understand:
...This is an awesome improvement and greatly appreciated although I'm still unsure of what the numbers mean.

Thank you for the visual. I am guessing that is only there until the warning expires then disappears from the top of the page. I just never noticed it before.

deleted221106-002999

I think it's [forum account warning] new - I've never seen it before either.

It's a welcome and useful addition.

Ratzkifal

Elsonso wrote: »

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?

Of course, happy to help, with suitable redactions of my own, which I hope you will understand:

Expires. Interesting. I assume that the points expire on a date?

Yes. I think a level 2 warning experience in 3 days, but I might be off by a bit. I just know it's less than a week, or at least it was in my case.

spartaxoxo

Even if it expires if you get another infraction after getting that they just ban you, regardless if the warning was over something trivial. That's what it means.

deleted221106-002999

SilverBride wrote: »

...but we don't need to see the report for this. It would be difficult to keep them anonymous if the report said something like "This poster called me a name." because that would identify who made the report.

Also, sometimes there is no report and the moderators just caught the infraction.

The non-reports is moot. The 'poster called me a name' could be edited/redacted to include salient information and retain reporter anonymity.

I still think it would be more useful - and, obviously, fair/reasonable - than not.

On the flip-side, from the reporter perspective, it might ensure they thought twice before hitting the trigger in the heat of the moment and hopefully encourage more cogent objections when they decide to go ahead with it, if they were aware that, should action be taken, the account actioned would be forwarded a [possibly redacted] copy.

edit: removed edge case last paragraph; not relevant anyway.

Elsonso

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

...

Oh... uh... no. Don't go there. Readers can use the Report feature, and no one participating in the thread can even observe they are there. Don't assume that this is a rare thing.

Edited to remove deleted quote.

deleted221106-002999

Elsonso wrote: »

Oh... uh... no. Don't go there. Readers can use the Report feature, and no one participating in the thread can even observe they are there. Don't assume that this is a rare thing.

I edited out; edge case as it was. Thanks.

Ratzkifal

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Even if it expires if you get another infraction after getting that they just ban you, regardless if the warning was over something trivial. That's what it means.

Well, I'm still here. So that's not the case. But who knows, maybe next time it'll be my time. At the very least for that last time I tried to appeal but didn't get a response, not from ZOS_Kevin either, but then again depending on how the rules are interpreted it can be argued that it was justified last time, so that might be why.

spartaxoxo

That's what happened to me here. It was such a low grade offense that I made (and honestly overly harsh) that I didn't even receive points for it, but because I had a warning a couple of months prior, it resulted in a suspension anyway. They look at your moderation history to determine what punishment you get, so the amount of points you rack up can count against you even after the heightened warning system expires.

Ratzkifal

spartaxoxo wrote: »

That's what happened to me here. It was such a low grade offense that I made (and honestly overly harsh) that I didn't even receive points for it, but because I had a warning a couple of months prior, it resulted in a suspension anyway. They look at your moderation history to determine what punishment you get, so the amount of points you rack up can count against you even after the heightened warning system expires.

That does explain why I ended up getting points that last time, although that does also seem to be up to the moderator in question. A few years ago I talked to someone who kept reporting anyone who disagreed but was baiting others himself. I got a warning then and a few days ago I mentioned something that I probably shouldn't have mentioned but got points for that and my message deleted when I think it would have been enough to snip the debateably offensive parts, especially since I wasn't actually talking about the subject in question but talking about people talking about that subject ingame and going unmoderated. My appeal went nowhere though.

starkerealm

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?

Of course, happy to help, with suitable redactions of my own, which I hope you will understand:

Expires. Interesting. I assume that the points expire on a date?

Yes. I think a level 2 warning experience in 3 days, but I might be off by a bit. I just know it's less than a week, or at least it was in my case.

Yeah, all of my 2pt warnings expired after 3 days. As my account doesn't appear to have any points associated, and my last infraction was in July 2021, yeah, points expire. It does seem to be geared more for dealing with someone who is consistently making trouble, rather than a few events scattered over years.

starkerealm

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This isn't a forum with that type of system, so talking about immediately triggering a 3 strikes rule doesn't apply. And multiple posts aren't one extended infraction, they are each their own infraction. Obviously it should take behavior across multiple threads to issue a ban, but doesn't mean everything you do in that one thread is one infraction. You can have multiple infractions within the same thread, which makes your behavior more likely to trigger a suspension.

@spartaxoxo, I think I missed this when you posted it. As the thread is currently discussion there is, in fact, a, "version," of a three strikes rule here.

Warnings will apply points to your account which expire over time. However, if you accrue enough points that can lead to a ban. So, a bad faith actor who wanted to trigger a ban, could attempt to report a user simultaneously over multiple posts, when those posts were spread out over a long enough period that the points would have fallen off naturally, with the intention of slamming the user with multiple simultaneous infractions. Sort of like a forum moderation lag switch, if you will.

So, there is a point to this where it is, at least theoretically abusable. As far as I know, the moderation team wouldn't be bamboozled by this tactic, but it could explain those errant old posts that occasionally see moderation.

SilverBride

starkerealm wrote: »

Warnings will apply points to your account which expire over time. However, if you accrue enough points that can lead to a ban. So, a bad faith actor who wanted to trigger a ban, could attempt to report a user simultaneously over multiple posts, when those posts were spread out over a long enough period that the points would have fallen off naturally, with the intention of slamming the user with multiple simultaneous infractions. Sort of like a forum moderation lag switch, if you will.

I am not saying this has never happened but I think it's the exception rather than the norm. I would guess that most players who report posts do so because the post was directly insulting them, which is a valid use of the reporting system.

Elsonso

starkerealm wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?

Of course, happy to help, with suitable redactions of my own, which I hope you will understand:

Expires. Interesting. I assume that the points expire on a date?

Yes. I think a level 2 warning experience in 3 days, but I might be off by a bit. I just know it's less than a week, or at least it was in my case.

Yeah, all of my 2pt warnings expired after 3 days. As my account doesn't appear to have any points associated, and my last infraction was in July 2021, yeah, points expire. It does seem to be geared more for dealing with someone who is consistently making trouble, rather than a few events scattered over years.

Is it a part of the forum software? Maybe something that is there but they don't use?

spartaxoxo

starkerealm wrote: »

Spartaxoxo, I think I missed this when you posted it. As the thread is currently discussion there is, in fact, a, "version," of a three strikes rule here.

Warnings will apply points to your account which expire over time. However, if you accrue enough points that can lead to a ban. So, a bad faith actor who wanted to trigger a ban, could attempt to report a user simultaneously over multiple posts, when those posts were spread out over a long enough period that the points would have fallen off naturally, with the intention of slamming the user with multiple simultaneous infractions. Sort of like a forum moderation lag switch, if you will.

So, there is a point to this where it is, at least theoretically abusable. As far as I know, the moderation team wouldn't be bamboozled by this tactic, but it could explain those errant old posts that occasionally see moderation.

The reason it doesn't work is that the mods go in manually and look at your mod history. They can see the dates the post occurred, what action was taken, etc. It's not an automatic 3 strikes rule like on those other websites. Multiple violations in the same thread is likely to result in suspension but that's moreso because it was a larger violation. Now someone digging into your account to make a ton of violations across multiple threads, rather than multiple ones in the same thread, could result in such.

Which is why I noted that multiple LEGITIMATE flags in the same thread is not abuse, but someone combing through your post history is one. Because at that point the mod isn't getting the message "This thread has a lot of commotion" but instead getting the message "This person is running amok right now across the website." It's intended to create a false perception and is thus abusive.

ETA:
Multiple flags where all of the reports were not legitimate and is only intended to make it seem as though you're guilty of extensive abuse, is ofc also abuse.

starkerealm

Elsonso wrote: »

Is it a part of the forum software? Maybe something that is there but they don't use?

No, they use it. It's possible there's additional potential functionality they don't use.

SilverBride wrote: »

I am not saying this has never happened but I think it's the exception rather than the norm. I would guess that most players who report posts do so because the post was directly insulting them, which is a valid use of the reporting system.

In this case, I'm explaining why someone would abuse the system in this way, rather than saying, "someone is doing this." In fact, as I said, because all moderation is done by hand, this particular form of abuse is less effective (or completely ineffective.)

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The reason it doesn't work is that the mods go in manually and look at your mod history.

This is the key to stymieing most moderation abuse across the board. There's a lot of potential for abuse that starts to fall apart when actual humans are reviewing all of the reports, rather than algorithms. That does not mean people do not try. What I can't assess is how effective they've been.

spartaxoxo

starkerealm wrote: »

. That does not mean people do not try. What I can't assess is how effective they've been.

Sure, but the assessment of that is whether or not the reports were legitimate. If you got hit with multiple, legitimate reports in the same thread, then you weren't abused. I just want to be clear because I don't want moderators to be taking action against victims reporting harassment from someone attacking them in multiple posts in the same thread. If the report is in the same thread and it's legitimate, it is not abuse

Victims shouldn't be afraid to report harassment because their attacker's multiple violations is somehow blowing back to hurt the victim's account instead of the harasser.

FeedbackOnly

spartaxoxo wrote: »

That's what happened to me here. It was such a low grade offense that I made (and honestly overly harsh) that I didn't even receive points for it, but because I had a warning a couple of months prior, it resulted in a suspension anyway. They look at your moderation history to determine what punishment you get, so the amount of points you rack up can count against you even after the heightened warning system expires.

At some point the points should expire? How about new years equals a fresh start?

FeedbackOnly

starkerealm wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Is it a part of the forum software? Maybe something that is there but they don't use?

No, they use it. It's possible there's additional potential functionality they don't use.

SilverBride wrote: »

I am not saying this has never happened but I think it's the exception rather than the norm. I would guess that most players who report posts do so because the post was directly insulting them, which is a valid use of the reporting system.

In this case, I'm explaining why someone would abuse the system in this way, rather than saying, "someone is doing this." In fact, as I said, because all moderation is done by hand, this particular form of abuse is less effective (or completely ineffective.)

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The reason it doesn't work is that the mods go in manually and look at your mod history.

This is the key to stymieing most moderation abuse across the board. There's a lot of potential for abuse that starts to fall apart when actual humans are reviewing all of the reports, rather than algorithms. That does not mean people do not try. What I can't assess is how effective they've been.

I believe it has to been effective to some degree or doesn't make sense on the current state of forums.

It was partly players fault in first place

deleted220614-000183

Can't wait when this toppic is closed by admins as a "Conspiration theory"
They are using "Conspirtion theory" explanation quite often recently.

FeedbackOnly

Mods are doing a lot better

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/605688/kicked-from-a-guild-without-warning-or-explanation-mild-rant#latest

Elsonso

trpajzla wrote: »

Can't wait when this toppic is closed by admins as a "Conspiration theory"
They are using "Conspirtion theory" explanation quite often recently.

The "conspiracy theory" is interesting. These usually pop up in order to fill a void in available information from an official source on a topic that is generally negative. They are going to be quite common in places where the trusted source of information does not provide that information, resulting in speculation. Negative speculation is often labeled as a "conspiracy theory" due to the increasingly sarcastic, often outlandish, nature that it can take. I see this as an area of concern for the ESO forums.

I actually see "baiting" more than "conspiracy theory", though. Baiting is pretty ubiquitous on the internet, so that is hardly surprising.

VaranisArano

trpajzla wrote: »

Can't wait when this toppic is closed by admins as a "Conspiration theory"
They are using "Conspirtion theory" explanation quite often recently.

You could message the mod who closed your thread to appeal it if you think you weren't engaging in a conspiracy theory.


As an aside, one of the reasons I figure that the Mods usually don't allow us to discuss moderator action in detail is that its basically like someone asking the peanut gallery for validation, when half of us like to argue, the rest of us just bring the popcorn, and none of us can affect the outcome. If you want to see how bad it can derail, wander over to Reddit when ZOS makes someone change their (inappropriate) character names.

I've appreciated this thread more for allowing us to discuss our experiences with moderation. As much as I have opinions about some of the specific examples brought up, I'm not sure it'd be helpful to anyone if I try to play back-seat moderator.

SilverBride

Elsonso wrote: »

The "conspiracy theory" is interesting. These usually pop up in order to fill a void in available information from an official source on a topic that is generally negative. They are going to be quite common in places where the trusted source of information does not provide that information, resulting in speculation. Negative speculation is often labeled as a "conspiracy theory" due to the increasingly sarcastic, often outlandish, nature that it can take.

I agree with why we see conspiracy theories, i.e. to fill a void in information. However I believe the main reason these are snipped is because they are spreading misinformation.

Four_Fingers

It took them 8 years to perma ban my father because of accumulation of points without any yearly reset of points like most forums. Lesson learned don't defend PvP in threads made to attack it.

SilverBride

Four_Fingers wrote: »

It took them 8 years to perma ban my father because of accumulation of points without any yearly reset of points like most forums. Lesson learned don't defend PvP in threads made to attack it.

Long term posters have been permabanned over a handful of infractions. As humans we will occasionally make mistakes, especially if we feel very passionately about a topic. This is why the entire posting history should be considered.

The thousands of constructive posts someone has made is way more indicative to what kind of poster they are than a small handful of infractions.

@ZOS_Kevin Please take a look at this.

[edited for clarity]

EozZoe1989

i think its because people are cheating byy wartching half and half screen to see were each othe rare on diffrent teitch streams but who would go to the level of that it too much work lol
but could be other reasons..
if anything id like to see one on one..actions like battle arena--

StevieKingslayer

There is zero point in ever messaging a mod to clarify anything. Im still waiting on a reply from a particular mod, who uses a different name from their zos ID, which is also "why?" to sign off. Am I dealing with one person, or another. I have been waiting 2 months for a reply. Im tired of this. I want to know why it's acceptable to give me a warning for "baiting", when I defend myself, and yet an OP is allowed to disparage an entire timeslot and it happens constantly on this forum. Why is it fair to punish me for making a joking reply, when they can tell me to F off and go somewhere else? Sort yourselves out ZOS.

Their service sucks as well in regards to actual in game appeals. I know someone who got hit with a temp ban simply because a payment bounced. Why the hell are you BANNING peoples accounts over something that silly? Just LIMIT their access to the content they didnt pay for?! Its not complex. They paid for the base game and expansions, why can't they play it? You cant just take away their access to something they HAVE paid for and have paid for , for YEARS with no explanation? It was a plus payment bounce - So just lock their craftbag/dungeons and send a mail to let them know? Not temp banning their account with no explanation and taking well over 48 hours to respond properly.