I am going to get a lot of hate on this

Troodon80

Jusey1 wrote: »

but ESO isn't a game which uses main-tank and off-tank definitions... You're just a tank or you're not.

Just as a clarification here, it is. Though only once you get to harder more "end game" content. For example, an off-tank typically tanks the atronachs during the Sunspire boss fights while the main tank has the dragon taunted. In Rockgrove, the off-tank has the "mini" in each fight -- the Annihilator on first boss, the Abominations and Behemoths on second, the Atronachs and Goliaths on third. In the past, groups would also use an off-tank/DD in vAA hard mode who would do damage but was responsible for taunting and stacking the the storm atronachs; they'd have maybe Alkosh and one DPS set. The main tank would then have the axes. In Kyne's Aegis, the off-tank usually runs Guard and uses mostly heal skills. The off-tank will alway have a specific role to play and their setup will usually reflect this; for example, they may not necessarily use full heavy.

There is no distinction in dungeons because there is only one tank. This is fairly standard in other MMOs as well. Again, just to clarify. ESO definitely has those definitions among the community, it just depends on the content being referred to.

Jusey1

Troodon80 wrote: »

Just as a clarification here, it is...

Ah, okay. That makes sense. I more use to the main-tank and off-tank being applied to a game like Paladins or Overwatch, so never really thought about how it could apply to an MMO at all.

Whiskey_JG

I dont have a problem with fake tanks, as I can usually nuke most normal content on my own. But I kind of expect the fake tank to at least slot inner fire to keep bosses from running around.

Merlin13KAGL

Troodon80 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

This is why I tend to think there should be diminishing returns on the daily XP after you're a certain CP level.

If you're 1200CP's and fake tanking, odds are you're not doing anyone any good that wants to legit run their normal dungeon when it's at their tier.

Someone queuing up to practice their role, maybe because they're newer to the role, to the dungeon, whatever gets nothing (but XP) from a speed run or a sloppy run with fake roles.

Diminishing returns (or none at all) would lower the available queue, but as mentioned above, you're not really helping them anyway.

You should group or be grouped with people of similar (dungeon) experience or CP level.

The problem is, who defines capability? The character, the CP, or the player? I've said this in the past, but there are plenty of CP 2000+ players out there that I wouldn't want in veteran, and more's the point... they wouldn't want to be there, either. Your idea, in order for them to get rewards, would:

1. Dictate how they should play to your standard
2. Force other players to carry them

While I do, more broadly, agree with your latter statement (clipped out) regarding pre-made groups, this part could not be endorsed. I wish CP was an indicator of skill. But it's not. If that's one thing I've learned in the years of playing this game all the way up to the highest end game levels of PvE and PvP, CP does not equal skill. You should not pigeonhole even high CP players into veteran for daily rewards when they are very clearly not capable of doing said content.

@Troodon80 in response to the original comment, if you're 1200 CP DPS and queuing as a role you're definitely not qualified for it's not because you can't meet that "higher" vet standard. I mention mutliple ways to show your skill level.

There could be more ways to "qualify." I mention dungeon experience. I've posted multiple suggestions about reputation points, etc. There could be more tiers than just normal and vet, but if you've had much experience at all and over 160/300 (the levels the game requires to land in a particular content), then you're overqualified for norm in most cases.

I'm also not saying running norms are not an option, but an overqualified run shouldn't net the same rewards, as that's usually the enticement to BSing a role and running a normal dungeon vs a base game vet. I'm willing to bet the number of CP players that are vastly overqualified for random norms are far greater than the number of CP500+ that are seriously underqualified for vet. I'd like to know how many non-DLC vet runs are really gonna hand most higher level CP players their butt? Diminished returns makes them less enticing to run if the XP is the main thing you're after.

If you are one of those unusual exceptions, then by all means, run normal. Don't expect to get the same quick rewards once you can vet or after your rep/dungeon experience kicks you up to the next tier.

I've mentioned gauntlets, training and "proving grounds" type areas for all roles, and advanced filter options for those that wish to use them.

No one is forced to carry. That's what the kick is for.

I'm not asking for someone to not be a triathlete to expect them not to sign up for an elementary school foot race as a full grown adult and expect to get the same 'prize' at the end.

This thread isn't about people not being ready for content they're being pushed into. This is about people trying to bypass the queue without doing their role simply for some quick XP while stepping all over the other people they get grouped with.

If "my standard" is don't cheese content you're overqualified for because you can't be bothered to put the slightest effort in, I'm okay with that. They used to limit drops and XP's within four VR levels of the content to prevent this very kind of nonsense.

If you're rolling in the door with golded out Insert-gear-set-here and full monster helm, you're overqualified for norm.

EDIT: Heck, I'll take it a step further. Personally, there's vet content I feel I shouldn't even be allowed in the door anymore (unless it's to help the group.) When's the last time you had your character's wellbeing feel remotely threatened by Banished Cells or Volenfell?
People skipping the queue aren't doing it to benefit anyone but themselves.

Araneae6537

IMHO, the term “fake tank” is thrown around too much when it should only be used of those who queue as tank to cut in queue and have no intention of doing the minimum expected of the role, grabbing aggro of dangerous foes, particularly bosses. Of course a good tank will do more and can make a run smoother, but not always necessary, and if they’re doing significant damage, perhaps that’s just as quick to bring mobs down as grouping them for aoe.

Point being, if you’re queuing to tank a normal dungeon, you need to be prepared to do that. You’re not a “fake tank” just because you’re not currently equipped to main tank a vet trial boss in hard mode!

LightningWitch

I don't take any class ranking in pugs seriously anymore.

I'd rather have 3 fake tanks who can at least do damage and stay alive than the 3 dps who I have to constantly revive because they can't stay out of stupid.

Troodon80

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

If you're rolling in the door with golded out Insert-gear-set-here and full monster helm, you're overqualified for norm.

I mean, again, golded gear is only part of it. I've seen plenty of people rolling into a random normal with full golded out "meta" gear and doing extremely subpar DPS. Largely, in my opinion, because they've looked at some guide and thought this is the setup that would make them "god-like" at the game. Which... well, anyone who has ever played any video game, or done anything in life... ever... knows that's now how it works.

A reputation system seems like the best strategy, but even the one you proposed some time back is open to a certain level of "natural" abuse, simply by being used. For example, if I fake tank and don't get kicked, I get a +1 for completion despite not actually fulfilling my role. The only way a system like this would work is if playing a role you weren't fulfilling means you got no points. Or even got points deducted. But even that sort of system would be abused as people just kicked others "because reasons." Because the tank lost aggro. Because I was standing in stupid and the healer didn't heal me. Because the DPS was low. There are no sanity checks regarding your role. The game doesn't enforce that tanks, for example, must have an ice staff, one-hand and shield, or specific taunts, and if you listen to the community you can see plenty of people saying "you don't get to decide how I play the game."

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

EDIT: Heck, I'll take it a step further. Personally, there's vet content I feel I shouldn't even be allowed in the door anymore (unless it's to help the group.) When's the last time you had your character's wellbeing feel remotely threatened by Banished Cells or Volenfell?
People skipping the queue aren't doing it to benefit anyone but themselves.

I agree 100%, by the way.

Fizzyapple

I carry fake tanks almost every time I rnd.

Even if they are competent its rude and they are very very aware that it upsets people but choose to do it anyway which is the biggest issue for most people.

If a fake tank points out that they are a fake tank I would be ok with it but they're not the types to be that considerate, even to that small degree. I found my solution and that is to quit any group that has a fake tank.

Merlin13KAGL

Troodon80 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

If you're rolling in the door with golded out Insert-gear-set-here and full monster helm, you're overqualified for norm.

I mean, again, golded gear is only part of it. I've seen plenty of people rolling into a random normal with full golded out "meta" gear and doing extremely subpar DPS. Largely, in my opinion, because they've looked at some guide and thought this is the setup that would make them "god-like" at the game. Which... well, anyone who has ever played any video game, or done anything in life... ever... knows that's now how it works.

A reputation system seems like the best strategy, but even the one you proposed some time back is open to a certain level of "natural" abuse, simply by being used. For example, if I fake tank and don't get kicked, I get a +1 for completion despite not actually fulfilling my role. The only way a system like this would work is if playing a role you weren't fulfilling means you got no points. Or even got points deducted. But even that sort of system would be abused as people just kicked others "because reasons." Because the tank lost aggro. Because I was standing in stupid and the healer didn't heal me. Because the DPS was low. There are no sanity checks regarding your role. The game doesn't enforce that tanks, for example, must have an ice staff, one-hand and shield, or specific taunts, and if you listen to the community you can see plenty of people saying "you don't get to decide how I play the game."

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

EDIT: Heck, I'll take it a step further. Personally, there's vet content I feel I shouldn't even be allowed in the door anymore (unless it's to help the group.) When's the last time you had your character's wellbeing feel remotely threatened by Banished Cells or Volenfell?
People skipping the queue aren't doing it to benefit anyone but themselves.

I agree 100%, by the way.

@Troondon80 Our previous discussion would provide for just that, provided people used it. One would hope 3 downvotes from an actual random would help keep 'farmed' votes in check and make it not worth the time and trouble to fake the role to farm the rep.

Worst case, if it eliminated 90% of the current fake nonsense, then hopefully the remaining 10% that was obviously done to continue to bypass the system could get reported...though I have doubts much would come of it.

Here is a link to our original discussion with some detail about the rep system I proposed, for anyone else that would like to have a look or expand on it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7476312/#Comment_7476312
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7477903/#Comment_7477903

I do agree that CP isn't the best measure of ability, as I've seen high CP's that couldn't get it done, and I've seen 'low' CP players that were outstanding.

There currently is no simple solution, and until consequences are present, I'm not sure it would prevent people from continuing to do what they do now without regard to others.

In either case, we're on the same side. You clearly get it.

es4eva

I can only laugh at the fake tanks, and healers, defending their fakeness. Some make valid points about how, in certain circumstances, 4 DPS is better than a traditional 3 role group. I have found myself, from time to time, nodding and saying "ok good point".

But ultimately, the reason they're doing it, misrepresenting themselves, is that they don't want to wait to do their dungeons. The fact that they have a good point now and again doesn't change that. They want to skip the line without regard for anyone else. It's selfishness, albeit sometimes lightly wrapped in a passable excuse.

If you want to run dungeons with whatever makeup you want, by all means, do so...with a group that is fully consenting and on board with the same XYZ good reason you can come up with.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Ankahet

I think a lot of people reply to this thread, including the OP are missing the point of what a tank is built to do. They hold the focus of the mobs and bosses, so the dos can do their jobs without being beat on by the mobs, healer included.

If mobs are running everywhere, attacking the dps or healers, then it doesn't matter whether you are a "Fake Tank" or real tank, you aren't doing your job.

By the way, training mobs from boss to boss just because you want to be done faster is super annoying. For lower level or newer players whom either don't have the speed or don't know the dungeon, it is hard for them to keep up and ruins the experience.

JJOtterBear

Somewhere along the line OP, probably with the advent of battle royale games, dying in an attempt or just while having fun became unacceptable. You either steamroll everything or the game is no longer fun.

A very black and white, and very toxic mindset for a game, which exists solely for fun. Its not a job. It's not work. It's not a contest.

But battle royale games introduced this idea that if you die, then you suck and there is no middle ground at all. and it ruins the fun that games are meant to be. And tbh imo, if someone can't have fun playing a game unless they always win, that's their problem, and it makes me sad.

newtinmpls

redspecter23 wrote: »

I was with you right up until you mention you don't slot a taunt.

Yuppers

No taunt = vote to kick