I am going to get a lot of hate on this

drsalvation

"Now, compare this to my actual tank. Fully geared. Using sets to optimize my groups DPS. Every time I play on my real tank, dungeon times are almost double and significantly more frustrating. It gets to the point where some days I don’t even run on my tank or healer because I don’t have the time. Especially on veteran dungeons where it is a coin flip with your group."

This is why people keep saying support roles are dying, and with the introduction of Armory, they really nailed support roles in their coffin.
The first time I did a dungeon run as DPS after 6 years of tanking, I got paired with a fake tank, and since I always keep sword and shield, my tank instincts kicked in when the boss aggro'd me and the other "tank" was just spamming heavy attack.
The worst part is that we actually finished the dungeon with nobody dying.

Not only that, most dlc dungeon mechanics will still one-shot tanks who didn't hide behind an ice pillar.
So... what's the point of optimizing a tank build?

6 years of being a tank thinking I was essential, being ok with sacrificing my effectiveness in every other single aspect of the game only to realize how unnecessary that was? I could've achieved centurion rank in PvP years ago and still do dungeon runs without needing to tank at all.
As for trials? Who cares about trials after the first run? Only 1 tank is needed, 2 to be effective. You only grind for trial gear so you can be better at running other trials.

VaranisArano

MoreTune wrote: »

Double standard in this community in regards to tanks/healers versus DPS. Fake tanks and healers get posted regularly But no one ever mentions low dps turning a 5 minute clear to 15 or 20 minutes. I consider this fake dps if I can do more damage as a fully kitted tank or healer in full support gear.

You wrote your original post to be all about fake tanks, and then act surprised when people talk about fake tanks. Big double standards on display here, I guess.


If you want to hear players complain about fake Damage Dealers, pop into the "How do we fix tanks/healers", the "support roles are dying", and "there's not enough tanks/healers in queue" type of threads more often.

Just because we rarely put bad Damage Dealers on blast doesn't mean that support players don't have their own list of terribad dungeon runs with bad DDs to share, or that we don't talk about it.

carlos424

You may consider bad dps to be “fake,” but that really isn’t accurate. They are trying to perform their role, but just not good at it. Fake is when one knowingly claims to be something they are not.

Troodon80

carlos424 wrote: »

You may consider bad dps to be “fake,” but that really isn’t accurate. They are trying to perform their role, but just not good at it.

Not to be pedantic, but that asserts that they are actually trying. I can give you as many examples of both. And typically the one with the most negative reaction is the one not actually trying, where they get nasty with the "Y o U c A n ' T t E l L m E w H a T t O d O" mentality.

spartaxoxo

carlos424 wrote: »

You may consider bad dps to be “fake,” but that really isn’t accurate. They are trying to perform their role, but just not good at it. Fake is when one knowingly claims to be something they are not.

No. Fake can mean that, but it can just also mean not real/authentic. Deception is not required.





These are both fake money. One is trying to deceive you for movie making purposes, and one is trying to be extremely obvious it's fake and going out of it's way not to be deceptive. Neither are real because they cannot be used as real currency.

Fake usually involves deception but not always. It is not required.

Zezin

Have to agree with folks here, have a taunt if you're doing fake tank, inner beast even boosts your damage by 10% something I feel the devs added for dps to use when queuing as tank.

There's nothing worse then having a group member run around because they're scare of a couple light attacks from the boss, in the end that just makes stuff take longer as your ground based abilities become useless.

Zezin

orgin_stadia wrote: »

Well, reading these forums' endless complains about speedrunners, RND's aren't really for completing fast! They are for doing quests, reading and listening to the amazing and interesting dialogue, reading books, looting every chest, crates and sack you can find and ofc generally just hang around randomly for minutes at a time at different places of interest. And most importantly to just walk around slowly to enjoy the scenery. And all that over and over again! (Pro tip: Drop the quest just after killing the last boss, that way you can do it again!)

So stop with the fake tanking pleeze!

;-)

Being serious though I do agree that if you queue as tank you should at least perform the minimum of that role. The DD's have queued forever, you have not, so that is what you have to pay for the reduced queue-time.

Random is for rewards, if I want to quest and see the lore I either go by myself or get a group of people who want to do that, there's no reason in wasting people's time with something they didn't sign up for.

Edit: nevermind I'm dumb and didn't read the whole thing *facepalm*

Murky_Dregs

Without a taunt, you're not tanking at all.

tanks orchestrate & control the fight.

You're not doing that and others are carrying your nonsense.

Darrett

If you’re going to fake tank, at least let the group know. I can swap into a tank setup in a hurry, but often it takes the first boss fight to discover that the “tank” has no taunts slotted. Then it’s a matter of trying to swap setups while people are chain pulling, so it takes a few attempts to get it finished.

Jusey1

EF321 wrote: »

PROTIP: YOU CAN GATHER SKILLPOINTS WHILE IN DPS QUEUE

PROTIP: INNER FIRE ISN'T THE ONLY TAUNT.

Jusey1 wrote: »

but my second bar is dedicated to shield abilities so I can taunt, apply debuffs to the boss, etc.

You and Tannus15 are acting like Inner Fire is the only taunt in the game... Sorry but there is at least two taunts in the game, many more if someone is running the Tormentor set for some odd reason. I am doing my tank role by taunting, applying debuffs to the boss, and applying buffs to allies when I can. I have all of that in my build for survivability for myself, to help those I am grouped with (or help my companion), and to control the fight's pace to my liking. I just don't have that extra 10% more damage that Inner Fire gives, which isn't that big of a deal in a NORMAL dungeon. It be way much more important in Veteran though, I agree, but NORMAL dungeons already goes by quickly. Discounting mechanics, a single good DPS to melt a normal boss in under a minute with ease...

So again, Inner Fire isn't high on my priority list because I do not need it in my build right now. There are other things that I want to unlock for myself and my build.

Araneae6537

Darrett wrote: »

If you’re going to fake tank, at least let the group know. I can swap into a tank setup in a hurry, but often it takes the first boss fight to discover that the “tank” has no taunts slotted. Then it’s a matter of trying to swap setups while people are chain pulling, so it takes a few attempts to get it finished.

Why should you do all that for the benefit of someone who cut in queue and isn’t even trying to do the minimum required of their role? I would first say something, in case the absence of taunt was a misperception on my part, mistake on their part, a lag spike, etc. If they’re not going to even do the minimum required of their role, they should be kicked, not rewarded for this behavior.

kringled_1

Jusey1 wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

PROTIP: YOU CAN GATHER SKILLPOINTS WHILE IN DPS QUEUE

PROTIP: INNER FIRE ISN'T THE ONLY TAUNT.

Jusey1 wrote: »

but my second bar is dedicated to shield abilities so I can taunt, apply debuffs to the boss, etc.

You and Tannus15 are acting like Inner Fire is the only taunt in the game... Sorry but there is at least two taunts in the game, many more if someone is running the Tormentor set for some odd reason. I am doing my tank role by taunting, applying debuffs to the boss, and applying buffs to allies when I can. I have all of that in my build for survivability for myself, to help those I am grouped with (or help my companion), and to control the fight's pace to my liking. I just don't have that extra 10% more damage that Inner Fire gives, which isn't that big of a deal in a NORMAL dungeon. It be way much more important in Veteran though, I agree, but NORMAL dungeons already goes by quickly. Discounting mechanics, a single good DPS to melt a normal boss in under a minute with ease...

So again, Inner Fire isn't high on my priority list because I do not need it in my build right now. There are other things that I want to unlock for myself and my build.

I think your earlier post left people with the impression that you weren't taunting, rather than you were taunting (puncture or frost clench presumably), just not with inner fire.
Inner fire is the only taunt in game that has no other prerequisites - a set for tormentor or a weapon setup for the other two - so it's usually the least disruptive to put into a dps skill bar.

Jusey1

kringled_1 wrote: »

I think your earlier post left people with the impression that you weren't taunting, rather than you were taunting (puncture or frost clench presumably), just not with inner fire.
Inner fire is the only taunt in game that has no other prerequisites - a set for tormentor or a weapon setup for the other two - so it's usually the least disruptive to put into a dps skill bar.

Which is understandable, but I did say in my first post in this thread that I do use a shield set-up on my second bar, so that is my fault for assuming that people read that (and didn't forget).

Araneae6537

Edit: Deleted

Hawco10

Couldn’t agree more with the OP regarding DPS dictates the pace.
As a dedicated healer, I love getting fake tanks, they are usually really strong dps wise and they tend to be farming the dungeon for gear/in a hurry. Nothing worse than ending up with dps that takes ages to clear a dungeon.
Never really saw the need for a tank in a normal dungeon tbh.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

My guess is you are a pretty good player. I consider myself a pretty good player. I can not remember that last time I failed or even wiped more than once in a normal dungeon. That is because it only takes one good player and a warm body or two to fly through normal content. Overwhelming DPS minimizes the need for support roles on vet content and removes it on normal content. One good player can equal overwhelming DPS in any normal dungeon. On Vet, it usually takes 2-3.

Personally, I think you are inconsiderate to not slot a taunt when you queue as a tank, regardless of content, and no matter how good you are. If for no other reason then that way, nobody can cry fake tank and I don't have to read about it on the forums.

A much better reason is that some people are learning in normal dungeons, and you do them a disservice to not at least perform your role on the most basic level. As a tank, that means taunting the boss. This game works better when we help each other out. I queue as support roles all the time on a DPS toon, but if a tank, I have a taunt, if a healer, I have a group heal of some sort. Read the tooltip on Inner Beast. Back bar it in place of any skill other than blockade/hail and your damage probably goes up. Your group DPS certainly goes up. It's a win win.

All that said, I think the rage about fake support roles is wildly over the top and barely an issue worth talking about.

Veinblood1965

Oh my another fake tank thread? My Eyes, my EYES!

Jusey1

Araneae6537 wrote: »

You explicitly stated that you don’t slot a taunt

Jusey1 wrote: »

but my second bar is dedicated to shield abilities so I can taunt, apply debuffs to the boss, etc.

Sylvermynx

@Araneae6537 - Jusey1 is not the OP. OP is MoreTune.

Araneae6537

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@Araneae6537 - Jusey1 is not the OP. OP is MoreTune.

OMG! I’d read through most of this thread but didn’t see where Jusey1 came in or why they were being defensive and just assumed they were the OP! I even went back and reread the original post to make sure I’d not overlooked anything — except the name, apparently! 🤣

Sylvermynx

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@Araneae6537 - Jusey1 is not the OP. OP is MoreTune.

OMG! I’d read through most of this thread but didn’t see where Jusey1 came in or why they were being defensive and just assumed they were the OP! I even went back and reread the original post to make sure I’d not overlooked anything — except the name, apparently! 🤣

No worries - I knew where you got off! And I figured I'd just nudge you a tad!

Jusey1

Araneae6537 wrote: »

or why they were being defensive

Tbf, I am naturally defensive due to how I grew up and many issues I have currently with a lot of people...

Araneae6537

Jusey1 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

or why they were being defensive

Tbf, I am naturally defensive due to how I grew up and many issues I have currently with a lot of people...

I didn’t mean that as a criticism, only that I don’t understand your objection to the recommendation of Inner Fire which was directed at the OP. Inner Fire has been promoted because the OP said they didn’t slot any taunt at all and Inner Fire is one they could use whatever weapons they use. Certainly though, whatever taunt(s) work for you is fine!

merpins

If you're a dps and you queue as a tank, it's to cut in line period. If you could queue as dps and get into random dailies quickly, then no one would fake tank and this wouldn't be an issue because no one would do it, it wouldn't be even a thought. You can't justify it for this or that reason; if you had no problem waiting in line, you'd wait in line.

wazbaumukerb14_ESO

Super weird to me why people think that trying to shame an individual is going to do anything.

This is a problem that will either be solved by the developers or not at all.

StackonClown

I normally type: "Congratz its your lucky day - Im running a 'DPS tanc"

If noone objects we carry on - this is on a high end DPS sorc with self healing and around 70k.
Mainly just normal but some of the easier vets - never had an issue

Jusey1

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I didn’t mean that as a criticism, only that I don’t understand your objection to the recommendation of Inner Fire which directed at the OP. Inner Fire has been promoted because the OP said they didn’t slot any taunt at all and Inner Fire is one they could use whatever weapons they use. Certainly though, whatever taunt(s) work for you is fine!

I was mostly responding to the recommendation of Inner Fire in a general sense of "Well, some people might already have a taunt and don't want to get another taunt quite yet due to reason x" which is where I was getting at originally. I never meant to object it as a recommendation for the OP but just trying to give a valid point on why someone might not use it, but that was a dumb thing to do on my part in all honesty, so I take the blame for causing issues there. I didn't thought about the OP actually running no taunts at all (I knew that he did due to him mentioning but that didn't cross my mind when I read the Inner Fire suggestion).

wazbaumukerb14_ESO wrote: »

Super weird to me why people think that trying to shame an individual is going to do anything.

There's also the factor of different playstyles to take into account. My argument for fake tanking on my main is because my main uses a solo build which allows him to tank in normals but it isn't a full blown tank build (he can do the role as needed). It's more like an off-tank build if anything, but ESO isn't a game which uses main-tank and off-tank definitions... You're just a tank or you're not.

I do agree that people who don't even bother with tanking as a role when they queued up for it is a problem. A big problem. If you queued up for it, you better have your taunt, means of holding aggro, and keeping the boss in a good position for your team to DPS them... You queued up for it and that is your job to do it. You don't have to be in full heavy armor with tank sets to do that job though in normal and even some veterans (though I don't do veterans at all with my main. I do those on my healers).

surfcat

Nuthin but Love bruther! But slot a taunt!

vivisectvib16_ESO

I have no issue with a fake tank if they, at the very least, hold aggro. The only time I have an issue is if I'm the healer and I have a boss chasing me around because fake-tank is too selfish to slot a taunt. Then I'm gonna VTK them.

cro25519

Don't care about fake tanks personally, just don't kite the boss around. It makes a 10s nuke a 40s run-fest otherwise.

Just slot a taunt, if not, just stay at one place, take a deep breath and it'll be dead in no time.