I am going to get a lot of hate on this

MoreTune

I see countless threads on here and on Reddit that are getting so much support in regards to shaming fake tanks.

I’ll start off by saying I fake tank normal undaunted dailies on my DPS toons. I kept a data log on my last 50 runs. And 48/50 I did not get one criticism or negative comment. In fact I got accolades through the PlayStation network on nearly every run.

I had one negative interaction in which a player flamed me for being a fake tank. I mistimed a roll dodge on the final boss of Dread Cellar and died and eventually the group wiped. After this wipe someone wrote something passive aggressive in regards to me being a fake tank. And then we killed the boss on the very next try.

I don’t slot a taunt. I clear majority of trash or kite the mobs to the boss encounter. And I usually clear a non dlc normal within 5 minutes.

Now, compare this to my actual tank. Fully geared. Using sets to optimize my groups DPS. Every time I play on my real tank, dungeon times are almost double and significantly more frustrating. It gets to the point where some days I don’t even run on my tank or healer because I don’t have the time. Especially on veteran dungeons where it is a coin flip with your group.

I understand this game is meant for all to enjoy. But majority of the community doesn’t spend time on learning gear optimization or dungeon mechanics. CP doesn’t mean much as you often see people 15xx just heavy attacking or spamming the same skills over and over. So when people get angry that people fake tank, seems almost like a double standard.

The reason why people fake tank (or fake heal for that matter) is because DPS roles dictate the pace of play in ESO. They are the rate limiting step in majority of PvE content. Fake tanking isn’t a big deal in normal dungeons especially if they are essentially carrying the entire content. Now if you are getting someone who clearly is trolling or fake tanking a veteran dungeon, I can see your frustration.

TLDR: tank/healer roles are helpless in PvE content while DPS controls pace of play. As much as I see fake tanks get flamed on the forums. This doesn’t translate in game based on my experience because everyone is just trying to complete content efficiently.

Rohamad_Ali

I don't care if real tank or fake tank joins group. How else will they ever learn the content if they never try?

redspecter23

I was with you right up until you mention you don't slot a taunt. If you're going to queue as a tank, but someone else has boss aggro, I would consider it rude that you jumped the queue as a tank, but are getting someone else who actually waited to do the tanking. Slotting Inner Fire and using it every 15 seconds on bosses is the least you can do as a tank. Just my opinion of course

Adremal

I'm inclined to agree, I sometimes do the same, except I'm not exactly "fake tanking" - I slot a taunt and replace the Fire/Lightning crushing wall with an Ice one for added newbie protection. On "harder" normals (a handful of DLCs) I also slot a Hardened Ward and/or Bound Aegis and I've never once died.

I even have a "2-in-1" Tank/Healer build saved in the Armory system ever since it popped and it performs beautifully in all normal dungeons without even losing much on DPS. Again never died, nobody noticed anything negative, everyone was happier when told "you can DPS if you want", except for maybe a couple of healers who didn't bother to switch to more DPS-ish builds and felt kinda useless (but is that not always the case with healers in normals?).

As to vet, I do stick to "proper" builds. They may not what people expect to see because I like to tank and heal as a sorc (both of which are criminally underrated, cleared most vet HM DLCs with no issues on my part (or the tank or healer's, some DPS checks did go wrong but not my fault eh). Of course there are a handful of those I'd rather do on a more "orthodox" tank or healer but still.

That being said, it's not something that can be properly discussed without taking into account each and everyone's playstyle and skill. I had a fake tank Cauldron run with a very squishy fake tank who didn't know to dodge or block and got gibbed and ressed multiple times on Zaudrus as I kited, and that irritated the group, rightfully so if you ask me - but the issue didn't become an issue till the last boss so whatever. Of course he instantly left the group in shame when we were done kiting and resurrecting him, I like to think that was enough of a shame-punishment I suppose.

TL;DR if you can handle it all the power to you (and the group); if you can't, don't hinder others, it's common courtesy.

_Zathras_

MoreTune wrote: »

The reason why people fake tank

..is to jump the queue. Period.

You can say whatever you want about DPS being able to handle most content, or ..whatever.., but please don't make a long post about why you (or others) do it when it is simply to queue into dungeons faster.

xaraan

As a player that has played tank most of his high end pve life, I know how horrible it is to run as a pure tank and end up in a group that cannot clear anything. It's frankly worse than fank tank groups and a bit shameful because none of the OG dungeons are so hard that a DPS should have any trouble clearing them.

But I will say, I can see how new players would be turned off because of the vast difference in quality of fake tanks. Some do solid DPS but still enough of the job to make everyone mostly happy, others not so much.

Frankly, you lost me at no taunt. If you are "fake tanking", you should slot a taunt IMO, even if everything else you are doing is more DPS like in build and skills. New/less exp. players will freak out more easily when the boss gets on them and IMO rightly so for the most part because it's the tanks job. (Maybe that is one thing that ZoS should require: A taunt to be slotted on your bar that cannot be removed if you are slotted as a tank, and a non personal heal if slotted as a healer that cannot be removed during the run). I'd say not taunting adds shouldn't be a problem, but you should at least taunt the boss so the less experienced players can at least have a less stressful time and maybe get some enjoyment out of the run.

If you are truly carrying the run, most of the time the boss will aggro to you anyway, so slotting a taunt is just being safe and watching out for your group and doing the minimal job of the role you slotted as to get into a run faster. Though my bet is that a lot of the hate we see is because there are players that are not capable of juggling a tank/dps like role and they make the run harder/worse than it needs to be.

But on the flipside: any players complaining about fake tanking should also make sure they aren't "fake DPSing" where they don't do enough damage to be useful to the run. Just because you slot yourself as a DPS doesn't mean you get to 'play how you want' and get carried by not doing your part of the damage while also not healing or tanking. At that point you are just a body being carried through the run and you aren't doing any of the three roles.

PrimusTiberius

_Zathras_ wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

The reason why people fake tank

..is to jump the queue. Period.

You can say whatever you want about DPS being able to handle most content, or ..whatever.., but please don't make a long post about why you (or others) do it when it is simply to queue into dungeons faster.

^^^^ This

Haquor

_Zathras_ wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

The reason why people fake tank

..is to jump the queue. Period.

You can say whatever you want about DPS being able to handle most content, or ..whatever.., but please don't make a long post about why you (or others) do it when it is simply to queue into dungeons faster.

If someone joins a normal as a tank.. all they really need to do is hold boss agro. If that is done (in a normal dungeon)... then what is the issue?

I find it annoying if someone queues as Tank but the doesnt hold any agro and does mediocre dpa or dies. I get it.


I 'fake tank'. Always. With a taunt. And dont die. And I admit it... purely for my own benefit. So i dont sit in a queue for hours on end and can smash out a bunch of random normals for the transmutes i need without trying to come up with something to do on q character i dont want to play except for the rn for transmutes while im queueing as a dps for aaaages.

Regardless of it being for my own benefit, the dps and healer in the group that joins me would be sitting in the queue for MUCH longer waiting for a 'real tank' (who yes
... is not actually needed for the content) to queue.

Call it fake if you want...but i hold agro, dont die, know mechs and dps hard. What really is the problem if it is more efficient for everyone?

etchedpixels

Put a few bits of health gear on a DPS and a taunt and you've got a tank for normal non DLC dungeons. Actually put plague doctor on a DPS and you can solo a load of them even at CP160 with the wrong traits.

Or just build a proper DPS tank, it's not exactly hard to do 20K on real targets whilst being tanky enough to hold bosses if you build for it, and the same builds are great for soloing dungeons too.

Jusey1

I actually do fake tank myself on my main but my second bar is dedicated to shield abilities so I can taunt, apply debuffs to the boss, etc. However, this is also because my main toon is built for soloing normal dungeons. If I am doing a dungeon with randoms, it is my doing my daily run or that specific dungeon has mechanics which requires two people to make it passable or at least tolerable.

I think as long as you can stay alive, play well, and keep your taunt up on the enemy... You can queued up as a tank in NORMALs but not Veteran.

jaws343

Haquor wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

The reason why people fake tank

..is to jump the queue. Period.

You can say whatever you want about DPS being able to handle most content, or ..whatever.., but please don't make a long post about why you (or others) do it when it is simply to queue into dungeons faster.

If someone joins a normal as a tank.. all they really need to do is hold boss agro. If that is done (in a normal dungeon)... then what is the issue?

I find it annoying if someone queues as Tank but the doesnt hold any agro and does mediocre dpa or dies. I get it.


I 'fake tank'. Always. With a taunt. And dont die. And I admit it... purely for my own benefit. So i dont sit in a queue for hours on end and can smash out a bunch of random normals for the transmutes i need without trying to come up with something to do on q character i dont want to play except for the rn for transmutes while im queueing as a dps for aaaages.

Regardless of it being for my own benefit, the dps and healer in the group that joins me would be sitting in the queue for MUCH longer waiting for a 'real tank' (who yes
... is not actually needed for the content) to queue.

Call it fake if you want...but i hold agro, dont die, know mechs and dps hard. What really is the problem if it is more efficient for everyone?

If you are actively taunting and holding aggro you aren't really a fake tank. You are performing the minimum expectation of the role, holding the boss. Now, if you are kiting the boss around willy nilly, then that is a bit of a problem. OP says they don't even taunt. That is a problem.

Jusey1

Adremal wrote: »

Cauldron run

I actually did my first Cauldron run earlier today. Did have issues with the last boss but mostly because I didn't knew his mechanics fully well. Probably going to give that a go again in a solo run to get more adjusted to the timing of attacks and spam he threw out, as from my memory, I didn't remember any mechanics in that dungeon that requires multiple players so should be do-able just fine.

Tannus15

Slot inner beast. it's a crazy strong skill that everyone would run if it didn't taunt. put it on the backbar instead of one of your dots.

it's literally free major slayer vs the boss and then you're not a fake tank, you're a dps tank, because you're tanking. that's all tanking is, taunting the boss.

I don't understand why a 'fake' tank wouldn't run this skill.

MoreTune

_Zathras_ wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

The reason why people fake tank

..is to jump the queue. Period.

You can say whatever you want about DPS being able to handle most content, or ..whatever.., but please don't make a long post about why you (or others) do it when it is simply to queue into dungeons faster.

I could care less about queue times. I wait in queues regularly for veteran content. The post was centered around DPS carrying content opposed to support roles. Much rather 4 DPS a normal dungeon than a 2:1:1.

Side note for everyone mentioning about slotting inner fire. I rarely have a hard time holding boss aggro. Especially if I’m the first one in the room and start the fight. Boss usually stays aggro’d and dies within 10 seconds regardless. Bosses don’t even hit hard in normal unless a one shot mechanic exists.

MoreTune

xaraan wrote: »

As a player that has played tank most of his high end pve life, I know how horrible it is to run as a pure tank and end up in a group that cannot clear anything. It's frankly worse than fank tank groups and a bit shameful because none of the OG dungeons are so hard that a DPS should have any trouble clearing them.

If you are truly carrying the run, most of the time the boss will aggro to you anyway

This. Seems like half the comments don’t realize this concept.

No need for inner fire unless someone else pulls boss. Or someone else has a taunt slotted. Which believe me has happened.

_Zathras_

MoreTune wrote: »

I could care less about queue times.

Then queue as DPS, and get in line.

bmnoble

While I would prefer you slot a taunt, you at least manage to help out your group clear the content.

Your not the type of fake role that annoys me, the kinda fake tank or healer that annoys me, is the kind that can barely manage to be a Damage dealer makes no effort to improve and just queues as a support role for a quick queue time hoping to be carried screwing over the group that gets them.

Often when I am on my tank, with the kinds of damage dealers I often get, your the kinda person I hope turns up as the fake healer when I queue for a random group, instead of running with guild mates.

Chips_Ahoy

Every time I see a fake tank I immediately vote to kick it and it always works.

You have the right to queue as a fake tank, no matter how ridiculous and absurd your justification is and I have the right to vote to kick.

Adremal

MoreTune wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

As a player that has played tank most of his high end pve life, I know how horrible it is to run as a pure tank and end up in a group that cannot clear anything. It's frankly worse than fank tank groups and a bit shameful because none of the OG dungeons are so hard that a DPS should have any trouble clearing them.

If you are truly carrying the run, most of the time the boss will aggro to you anyway

This. Seems like half the comments don’t realize this concept.

No need for inner fire unless someone else pulls boss. Or someone else has a taunt slotted. Which believe me has happened.

To play devil's advocate, a single skill slot will not make you any less noticeably able to carry anything on normal.
On the other hand people out-DPSing you (you'll meet them) will pull aggro and some of them will get... well, silently irritated to very vocal, that's what I've been seeing. I too do occasionally get irritated when pulling aggro from someone who's fake-tanking - not because he's fake-tanking but because that single skill slot, in a normal of all things, isn't really needed to carry anything. And it forces me to roll/kite/burn when all I want to is to get the easy daily reward while making work phone calls of watching something on TV or whatever. I mean seriously, what's a single slot's DPS worth in terms of time... in a normal?

Tannus15

Adremal wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

As a player that has played tank most of his high end pve life, I know how horrible it is to run as a pure tank and end up in a group that cannot clear anything. It's frankly worse than fank tank groups and a bit shameful because none of the OG dungeons are so hard that a DPS should have any trouble clearing them.

If you are truly carrying the run, most of the time the boss will aggro to you anyway

This. Seems like half the comments don’t realize this concept.

No need for inner fire unless someone else pulls boss. Or someone else has a taunt slotted. Which believe me has happened.

To play devil's advocate, a single skill slot will not make you any less noticeably able to carry anything on normal.
On the other hand people out-DPSing you (you'll meet them) will pull aggro and some of them will get... well, silently irritated to very vocal, that's what I've been seeing. I too do occasionally get irritated when pulling aggro from someone who's fake-tanking - not because he's fake-tanking but because that single skill slot, in a normal of all things, isn't really needed to carry anything. And it forces me to roll/kite/burn when all I want to is to get the easy daily reward while making work phone calls of watching something on TV or whatever. I mean seriously, what's a single slot's DPS worth in terms of time... in a normal?

especially, and i cannot emphasise this enough, when it gives you a 10% damage buff.

straight up. wall, inner beast, destro. BIG NUMBAS. Just slot inner beast, everyone will be happier. you'll get better dps and you'll also be taunting the boss [snip].
I literally can't think of a single reason not to slot inner beast if you're queueing as tank.

[Edited to remove baiting comment]

Jusey1

Jusey1 wrote: »

Probably going to give that a go again in a solo run...

Did my solo run of Cauldron and was fun. Final boss is much more enjoyable to fight in solo than grouped honestly, but I gotta say... Cauldron isn't a dungeon I would want to get if I am trying to get my daily dungeon done. Final boss is easier to manage by yourself and that whole section of saving ye' NPC friend takes a lot of time to an annoying degree...

Anyways, for the topic at hand...

Tannus15 wrote: »

I literally can't think of a single reason not to slot inner beast if you're queueing as tank.

I currently don't have it slotted because I don't have the skill points on my main for it yet... Since my main is my main, I been focusing all my skill points into a lot of passives first so I just haven't gotten to any of the Undaunted stuff yet. I do agree that Inner Fire is a really good taunt to use and probably will slot it sometime in the future myself, but it isn't high in my priority list right now, especially when normal dungeons are just so easy overall to go through and do. Like, seriously, they are NORMAL difficulty... I don't think playing the best meta you can play is needed here, as long as you can do what you are there to do within a reasonable amount of time.

redspecter23

Jusey1 wrote: »

Jusey1 wrote: »

Probably going to give that a go again in a solo run...

Did my solo run of Cauldron and was fun. Final boss is much more enjoyable to fight in solo than grouped honestly, but I gotta say... Cauldron isn't a dungeon I would want to get if I am trying to get my daily dungeon done. Final boss is easier to manage by yourself and that whole section of saving ye' NPC friend takes a lot of time to an annoying degree...

Anyways, for the topic at hand...

Tannus15 wrote: »

I literally can't think of a single reason not to slot inner beast if you're queueing as tank.

I currently don't have it slotted because I don't have the skill points on my main for it yet... Since my main is my main, I been focusing all my skill points into a lot of passives first so I just haven't gotten to any of the Undaunted stuff yet. I do agree that Inner Fire is a really good taunt to use and probably will slot it sometime in the future myself, but it isn't high in my priority list right now, especially when normal dungeons are just so easy overall to go through and do. Like, seriously, they are NORMAL difficulty... I don't think playing the best meta you can play is needed here, as long as you can do what you are there to do within a reasonable amount of time.

I think you've hit on a valid point of contention in the thread. Most people would agree that random normals aren't overly difficult. The OP can likely solo them if needed. The concern being brought up is more about dungeon and queue etiquette and how relevant it is to any given player. Someone queues as a fake tank with no taunt and are personally ok with that. That's their decision and that's fine. However, one has to determine how much effort they want to put into making 3 other people happy/content with your performance in that content. Some have mentioned that merely slotting a taunt and using it on bosses, even one that can actually raise your personal dps would be beneficial to the group social aspect. Each individual has to weigh how important it is that they have 3 people that at a bare minimum don't want to immediately vote kick them.

For me, I'd go out of my way to at least put a taunt on my bar so larger threats are on me and the group doesn't have to chase or be chased by a boss. I consider it a sign of respect to the group as a whole. That's me saying "yes, I'm not a full on tank, but I can do X/Y/Z for this random normal dungeon to make the group experience more enjoyable for all."

FeedbackOnly

It's because poor dungeon design focusing too much on DPS. It has finally got up with world and it's easier for 4 DPS to do content.

This problem was years in making. Dungeon design needs to do better job. We can still run pass mobs and DPS burns are shortcut to everything

Tannus15

Jusey1 wrote: »

Jusey1 wrote: »

Probably going to give that a go again in a solo run...

Did my solo run of Cauldron and was fun. Final boss is much more enjoyable to fight in solo than grouped honestly, but I gotta say... Cauldron isn't a dungeon I would want to get if I am trying to get my daily dungeon done. Final boss is easier to manage by yourself and that whole section of saving ye' NPC friend takes a lot of time to an annoying degree...

Anyways, for the topic at hand...

Tannus15 wrote: »

I literally can't think of a single reason not to slot inner beast if you're queueing as tank.

I currently don't have it slotted because I don't have the skill points on my main for it yet... Since my main is my main, I been focusing all my skill points into a lot of passives first so I just haven't gotten to any of the Undaunted stuff yet. I do agree that Inner Fire is a really good taunt to use and probably will slot it sometime in the future myself, but it isn't high in my priority list right now, especially when normal dungeons are just so easy overall to go through and do. Like, seriously, they are NORMAL difficulty... I don't think playing the best meta you can play is needed here, as long as you can do what you are there to do within a reasonable amount of time.

yeah, that's the lamest excuse ever. you can get 3 skyshards in no time at all. don't try and tell me your amazing main who solo's all these dungeons can't find 2 skill points or that you don't have undaunted levelled on your main.
just slot the skill if you're queueing as tank.
it's not hard or complicated.

James-Wayne

redspecter23 wrote: »

I was with you right up until you mention you don't slot a taunt. If you're going to queue as a tank, but someone else has boss aggro, I would consider it rude that you jumped the queue as a tank, but are getting someone else who actually waited to do the tanking. Slotting Inner Fire and using it every 15 seconds on bosses is the least you can do as a tank. Just my opinion of course

Totally agree with this.

I brawler Tank on my Stamplar (call it fake tanking if you want) and have been for years before this whole fake tanking was a thing. I also use Pale Order so the healer (which is usually not a full healer anyway) can just focus on the DPS and remember they changed Inner Beast to give 10% extra damage so why would you not want to slot that, your helping keep aggro and doing more damage... win win!

Jusey1

Tannus15 wrote: »

yeah, that's the lamest excuse ever. you can get 3 skyshards in no time at all. don't try and tell me your amazing main who solo's all these dungeons can't find 2 skill points or that you don't have undaunted levelled on your main.
just slot the skill if you're queueing as tank.
it's not hard or complicated.

I just haven't gotten to it yet because I keep putting my skill points into my passives, such as crafting and world skills. I been heavy focus on getting all of those back up to where they should be so I do everything on my to do list, so to say, than to worry about a single ability. That's my choice. I am choosing to prioritize other things over the Undaunted stuff right now because I do not need the Undaunted stuff right now. Inner Fire is a good ability, but it is not required.

Tannus15

Jusey1 wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

yeah, that's the lamest excuse ever. you can get 3 skyshards in no time at all. don't try and tell me your amazing main who solo's all these dungeons can't find 2 skill points or that you don't have undaunted levelled on your main.
just slot the skill if you're queueing as tank.
it's not hard or complicated.

I just haven't gotten to it yet because I keep putting my skill points into my passives, such as crafting and world skills. I been heavy focus on getting all of those back up to where they should be so I do everything on my to do list, so to say, than to worry about a single ability. That's my choice. I am choosing to prioritize other things over the Undaunted stuff right now because I do not need the Undaunted stuff right now. Inner Fire is a good ability, but it is not required.

hey, you're the one queuing as tank, you're the one making the choice here that your 1 crafting passive is more important than the bare minimum for the role you are choosing.
just saying, maybe you could be slightly less selfish with your choices when they affect other people.

Jusey1

Tannus15 wrote: »

hey, you're the one queuing as tank, you're the one making the choice here that your 1 crafting passive is more important than the bare minimum for the role you are choosing.

It would be 2 points to make Inner Fire more useful to use than Puncture and I already have Puncture. Ransack specifically actually (this is because my penetration is already 19k with just Major Breach, so I prefer the morph with Minor Protection over Minor Breach).

spartaxoxo

It's disrespectful to the dps to not slot a taunt. Make whatever excuses you want but making them wait 20 minutes to take YOUR aggro that YOU agreed to take is just plain rude. And no amount of complaining about dps will change that.

Fabi95

MoreTune wrote: »

I don’t slot a taunt.

For base game dungeons that may be fine. However, even when people do not say anything, some may be still bothered by the chaotic nature of bosses randomly hitting people. A tank is still meant to absorb damage (the group role description literally says so) and keeping an enemy's focus.
This especially matters on bigger (boss) enemies. The DPS players that join you do very likely have a setup that is optimized towards typical combat scenarios based on the role. For instance, DPS players very likely have the "Backstabber" champion star slotted. This means they deal additional damage from behind. When a boss randomly goes after people, this is problematic, as this is a scenario that a typical strong DPS build does not consider. That includes health points.
For maximium efficiency, DPS players tend to go for low health and stronger damage / resource recovery. When they then get hit repeatedly and end up on dangerously low health or die from an one-hit attack, it is understandable that people in the group do not enjoy this experience and express this audibly. A boss not facing the tank can easily become a real threat for others, and especially be a DPS loss for DPS players who fully take their role seriously by having optimized their setup for it.

So no matter the content, it is still the most appropriate to at least slot a taunt and holding positions for bigger enemies. The awesome thing is, the developers have even considered this scenario! Because the Undaunted skill morph "Inner Beast" exists. So you both taunt an enemy, and you deal an additional 10% damage on the taunted enemy. By utilizing this skill, you still do a part of the tank role, your playstyle as DPS-tank benefits from this, and your other group players are happy to be able to fulfill their own role too.

Merlin13KAGL

This is why I tend to think there should be diminishing returns on the daily XP after you're a certain CP level.

If you're 1200CP's and fake tanking, odds are you're not doing anyone any good that wants to legit run their normal dungeon when it's at their tier.

Someone queuing up to practice their role, maybe because they're newer to the role, to the dungeon, whatever gets nothing (but XP) from a speed run or a sloppy run with fake roles.

Diminishing returns (or none at all) would lower the available queue, but as mentioned above, you're not really helping them anyway.

You should group or be grouped with people of similar (dungeon) experience or CP level.

If you don't want to do the role, solo it for your gear, premake your group, or man up and have enough pride to at least do it on vet. A properly tanked instance will almost always go faster due to better stacks, buffs, and no chasing trash because some fool doesn't believe in taunts and can't handle the sloppy aggro they just caused.

Do your job. Better yet, do your job at the level your character is capable.