Why is it the general impression of people who don't play ESO is that the combat is bad?

James-Wayne

Been playing since beta and the combat is bad for me because the ping is so high it's frustrating when abilities don't work.

Rkindaleft

Maybe I'm generalising here but from what I've seen is the larger section of people who dislike the combat in ESO are casual players, newer players, or people who came from another MMO (like WoW.)

I feel like people who tend to like ESO's combat aren't one or more of these things. I prefer manually light attacking with manually activated skills than having an auto-attacker with manually activated skills like in a lot of other MMOs. I don't really like or dislike animation cancelling, it's there, I think it makes weaving feel good, and I enjoy weaving, to each their own.

In my opinion, the single biggest problem with ESO's combat system is that the game doesn't teach a player how to actually play the game. It tells you absolutely nothing about magicka and stamina damage/healing scaling, benefits of a proper rotation, and a plethora of other things. The 'play how you want' mentality is both a blessing and a curse, because a new player might come into the game expecting to play how they want which sounds fun and unique, but then never find out that because of that they're actually making combat harder for them and never understand why. The majority of people I've met who dislike ESO's combat fall into one of these categories.

Just my 2 gold pieces.

merpins

The consensus of all the people I know that don't play ESO is that the game is bad, not that the combat is bad. And the reason for it is the first 6 months when the game launched. That terrible launch soured this game for many people, and that is still a major tarnishing factor in this game. People don't realize, or don't care to realize, that the game got better after launch.

Kessra

Most people complaining about ESOs combat mechanics probably played ESO not long enough to really dig into the combat mechanics and thus have a false impression of what it is like or they simple don't like to smash multiple buttons every second as this fatigues fingers and hand rather quickly if not used to. Also, the game doesn't really teach you on the combat priorities (block, dodge roll > skills > light/heavy attack) and that a higher priority thing can be used to cancel the animation of a lower one. Combined with contantly using light attacks the animation of those can be reduced to an absolute minimum leading to a situation where it seems that only the skill itself is triggered though the light attack also is firing off (=weaving).

The main problem here now is, that light attacks contribute quite significantly to your overall damage. They not only allow you to stack certain buffs up and unlock certain abilities like Relentless Focus/Merciles Resolve on Nightblades that allow yo to fire off extra damage after each 5th light attack while the buff is up, but they by itself do with the right gear combination quite an outstanding part of your damage. I've seen parses 160k+ where light attacks contributed like 30-40% of the total damage and therefore ended up as #1 damage-source in the parse on the whole fight. Especially new players or ones not familiar (or correctly trained) with the whole weaving/animation canceling "feature" will miss out on much potential damage, which can usually be seen in random pledges regularly.

Some players also have reported that they can't sustain LA weaving/animation canceling for to long until their fingers/hands start to hurt. Other players on PC simply macro thier MMO mice to automatically trigger a light attack on each button press to not have to deal with constantly clicking left-mouse button. While officially forbidden I don't think the game client can really distinguish whether the left mouse button was triggered by the player itself or via a macro on an assigned mouse button. Though this is a thing done by more casual players to keep up with the rest of the pack that actually took the time to train the timings.

From a pure game design perspective, animation canceling/light attack weaving is a rather bad design as it takes away much of the role playing emersion and more or less invites new/casual players to cheat to maximize their damage as much as possible. It also favors players with good hardware/Internet connectivity and strains the ones without that. However, if not used with macros it also adds some kind of player-skill level to the game. I.e. like in Counter Strike where a casual player won't hit a thing when every pro-player already anticipates that a player might be right next corner and already has the cross hairs positioned and maybe also preemptively shooting through walls/objects. This is clearly a thing most of the other MMOs out there lack IMO. But again, people coming from other MMOs might find it diffictult to get into that weavin/animation canceling concept. Especially such streamers might not have the patience on stream to "train" their muscles to perform left clicks before every skill they use.

While in PvE content constantly being "forced" to smash buttons might be fun and engaging, in PvP the situation is a bit differen IMO. You not only get hit by an ability that does X damage but also by a mostly perfectly weaved light attack that you can't counter at all. And with a bit of lag added you all of a sudden get hit by multiple (4+) abilities of one player alone almost in the same moment. I've mentioned it already in multiple posts that I think ZOS really needs to take a closer look at how damage numbers build up and coutner-act here. I.e. by reducing the damage of light attacks notably and buffing up heavy attacks. Sure, light attacks should add up on the total damage done but not being your #1 source of damage. In PvP you can't really counter them as such I'd love to see more love for heavy attacks there, this might also reduce the calculation issues servers have to perform by having to calculate probably 30-50% less activities. If a player in PvP has the time and not enough pressure for doing a heavy attack, that heavy attack should hurt. The opponent could counter that heavy by CC-ing that player, put him/herself preassure on that player or simply by hiding behind some object that breaks LOS. In compensation movement while performing a heavy attack should be further limited or completely removed.

In regards to the trinity-holy grail of tanks, heals and DDs in typical MMOs, especially tanks and heals in ESO are usually only buff-slaves for DDs. Block mitigates also to much damage, wich is also annoying in PvP as well, which usually frees up the healer for supporting DDs. Certain one-shot mechanics also should be looked into as they are rather annoying and force tanks more into a passive playstyle where they block more than they actually need to. I.e. Z'Maya in Cloudrest is a perfect example how ZOS should telegraph abilities that hurt the tank so s/he can react accordingly to them. Sunspire on the other hand was just the opposite. We ended up swapping tanks at one point as I didn't see certain heavy attacks of the boss most of the time and therefore got insta-nuked which not only lead to much frustration (finally leading to a 2+ years ESO quit) on my part but also to bad atmosphere within the group as there was constantly naming and shaming going on where people had to stream their view so that others could check out whether the truth was told or not. I've also read that tanks to barely any damage. Unfortunately this is true in most cases, though the gear-setup and skills you use in trials usually varies notably from typical setups used in dungeons. It also depends on the group you are with whether you can wear more offensive (almost DD like) gear or have to use more defensive ones. That unfortunately usually leads to full inventory as roughly 8-10 sets are carried arround all of the time.

Long story short. ESOs combat mechanics are everything but beginner friendly and needs some time and engagment to learn and perfect. On the other side, weaving/animation canceling also adds some skill-component to the mix tht feels more engaging than just pressing buttons every x seconds and waiting till their cooldown wears off. Still I'd love to see more love for heavy attacks and a notable nerf to light attack damage and block mitigation to change the meta especially for PvP a bit.

mickeyx

I had new found appreciation of ESO combat after playing New World. Locked in animation combat is the worst thing to happen to any MMO.

MasterSpatula

Because the difference between bad and good is excessive and the difference between good and great is inexcusable.

Because the current team consistently deals with overperforming players with across-the-board blanket nerfs that will always hit the weaker players harder than the stronger, literally widening the gap with every attempt to close it--a criticism which they are given every time, which they act as if it were never uttered every time, and which comes true every time.

Because the difference between normal and vet content is too wide and reaching the best results in this game is too weighted to player ability, meaning those who are smart and eager and aware of mechanics but who don't have good dexterity, reflexes, and/or reaction times are likely to be either overwhelmed in vet or bored in normal.

GorHanis

Sorry to say that, but ESO combat is below average...
The Havok is not the best choice for fast paced actions or PVP. Bad physics, chunky animations (fault of the programmers) and somewhat sluggy.
However despite the engine many drawbacks, it can be learned. If someone plays for a few (or mooore) hours, it will really work better. So it all depends on practice.
But ESO combat will never be on GW2 (IMO best combat mechanics PVP fantasy MMO now) or Warframe level.

Learn and practice! So I wish "git gud" for everyone!

AlexanderDeLarge

Imagine being a complete newcomer to the game wondering what endgame looks like or someone who is considering playing the game and then you watch a video stressing the importance of animation canceling and 'weaving' attacks. It looks like a nightmare and it's visible to anyone with access to YouTube. Extremely off-putting to say the least.

It's not a bug, it's a feature should have never been embraced to such a degree. God only knows how many people have been turned off by the game or never picked it up to begin with due the way it looks in gameplay footage and the notorious reputation it has online.

Anyron

No cooldown on skills is what kills ballance of this game
Animation canceling is what kills servers and creates lag
Like was said before, nothing is more frustrating than be killed by 5 executioners and see only one on screen
Edit :
Button mashing is what i hate too.. With no animation there is no time to react/counterattack

moo_2021

Sylosi wrote: »

Some reasons the combat is considered bad:

1 - It mostly feels very floaty, clunky and lacks impact.

That and different melee abilities have different aim-assist ranges which make it very awkward.

Do light weaving on mob, if it can sustain more than 2 hits sometimes you'd miss one LA or some ability because it moves a tiny little bit or just gets knocked down, but not a complete miss (which would mean you should aim better) - this is highly dependent on ability and sometimes random. e.g. surprise attack misses more often than charge even if you don't move at all when doing charge.

Saieden

Suddwrath wrote: »

Because it is, especially for PvE.

Some counter points:

1) You have a limited number of skills that can be used/put on the skill bar.

It makes your skill choices mean a whole lot more than just having access to everything. You can't just have all the utility and all the damage, you actually have to make hard choices before going into a fight, and in the fight, you need to adapt your playstyle and decision making with what you have available to you. No shield/self heal? Be prepared to dodge more.

2) Classes feel very similar since they use many of the same weapon/guild/world skills (which takes away much of the flavor of the class)

Class skills are still the core of almost any good build, and almost always you're going to be using at least one or two that radically change how you build and/or fight.

3) Regardless of class, the rotation is generally: Apply DOTs -> Click Spammable Skill -> Reapply DOTS -> etc. (applying self buffs as needed)

The same can be said for any rotation-based combat. It's like saying "regardless of gun, fire, fire, fire, relaod, fire, fire, fire.." for any fps. That said, to reiterate on point 2, many skills radically change your rotation, if you use them properly. Blastbones, Grim focus, and shalks to name a few.

4) The vast majority of content can be done without even having a healer in the group which devalues the role.

This is a question of content, not mechanics. Furthermore, "can be done" is only by a very small subset of skilled players (assuming we're talking vet and above), and even then, requires group coordination for builds and strategies in most cases. If this really was a problem with combat, we wouldn't have weekly "fake healer" threads.

5) Due to the incredibly poor server performance combat often feels clunky and sluggish, not to mention the number of skills that are so bugged they often just don’t even work.

A valid point, however this doesn't mean the combat mechanics themselves are bad.

6) What was originally a bug is now deemed an essential feature to achieve high DPS (weaving/animation cancelling).

This is also a feature, which I regard as a core mechanic, that completely separates ESO combat from other MMOs and also from turning into a WoW clone.

7) Tanking is mind numbing. There is not an AoE taunt, no threat/aggro gauge to maintain, DPS is incredibly low, and the rotation is very simple.

This is self-contradictory. Having an AoE taunt is the most mind-numbing thing you can do for a tank. If tanking is mind-numbing to you, it's probably because you are not engaging in the more advanced tactics and responsibilities of the role. If you're just standing there holding block, spamming shields and taunting every 15s, and maybe moving out of an aoe once in a while, then yes, it will be boring for you.

[quote
I played end game ESO PvE for years and thought the combat was great, but as soon as I started playing other MMOs I realized just how stale, boring, and clunky the combat actually is.[/quote]

Examples? And what do you mean by endgame?

Saieden

Cloudtrader wrote: »

In my opinion, the worst thing about ESO combat is the animation canceling, which is horrible. Especially if you're used to a cool-down plus auto-attack system. Maybe that's why people don't like ESO combat.

This to me highlights the crux of the issue. Players conflate their opinion of combat mechanics with whether or not they are actually good or not. If you don't like technical inputs that reward practice and mechanical skill, then you won't appreciate animation cancelling and the lack of auto-attack.

Darkstorne

Animation cancelling can be a great system (see For Honor).

ESO's implementation of animation cancelling is absolute trash, and no one here should feel the need to defend ZOS for it.

We all love the game, but it's okay to admit it has problems. It's not a combat system designed around proper hitboxes and animation frames, so animation cancelling was never going to slot in well. It's an exploitable mess that is so difficult to fix it's become a "feature". On top of that, the game's animation design is pretty poor visually, so it shouldn't be surprising that so many people dislike the combat as a whole.

Basically, a lot of people think ESO's combat is bad because it objectively is really bad. Those of us who stick it out are the ones who learned to live with it, and focus on the positive aspects of the game and its encounter designs.

Irfind

I dont have a problem with animation cancelling - if its only to avoid damage. (block, dodge roll)

But in ESO you use it for faster and unpredictable damage.

It should be: Animation canceld - No damage

Just my 2 cent

Naftal

Irfind wrote: »

I dont have a problem with animation cancelling - if its only to avoid damage. (block, dodge roll)

But in ESO you use it for faster and unpredictable damage.

It should be: Animation canceld - No damage

Just my 2 cent

So you're saying all damage skills should have casting time?

Supreme_Atromancer

@Saieden

Saieden wrote: »

This to me highlights the crux of the issue. Players conflate their opinion of combat mechanics with whether or not they are actually good or not.

I think you can distil that issue even further:

If you don't like technical inputs that reward practice and mechanical skill, then you won't appreciate animation cancelling and the lack of auto-attack.

The "you" in your observation is the casual, immersion-type person. The people who typically champion and appreciate it are the people who are about performance and power-gaming. Most of the latter don't really care less about immersion. Most of the former don't necessarily think that performance and twitch skills should be as important. Its not surprising to see the sides of this discussion pretty much reflecting this.

The combat system is designed EXCLUSIVELY for the latter type of player, and by the way it continues to abstract away from immersion for the sake of power-gaming, performance and balance, it is exclusive against the former.

And those elements people are against are not cohesive with the original vision of the game, as evidenced by its early history. And none of the awkward changes they've made since - as sound as they are mechanically - have anything to do with immersion or the spirit of Elder Scrolls stuff.

Parasaurolophus

I hope that there are people here who know that canceling animation in ESO has been not working for a long time. You can't speed up casting through a block or swap for a long time. All wiaving moments were edited by the developers long ago. More than half of the complaints in this thread are not relevant today.

MEBengalsFan2001

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

combat in new world is a dumbed down version of ESO PVP. and wow is all about timers with addons to tell you what to do and when to jump and gear power (latter has been broken for years). Only issue I can see in ESO is lag at times and animation cancelling - the latter means spamming + 1 skill every second which is awful gameplay.

The only other MMO I know that is similar to ESO combat was DCUO when it had jump cancelling. Like ESO it also had resource management but they created a role where it was that role job to refresh that resource. In ESO we have stats, abilities, sets, etc... that help with resource management.

Not many MMO games have fast pace action combat with resource management.

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun

I think the subpar animations give the combat the impression of being worse than it really is.

Even when the game first launched, the combat looked bad compared to it's peers. From the outside looking in, it's just not going to impress anybody.

AVaelham

Most people I've seen complaining about the ESO combat system are veteran MMO players who are used to tab-targeting, having 5 bars full of skills that do all kinds of flashy damage, playing the game like a piano simulator. With the weapon swapping, slotting only a handful of skills and the fast-pace of combat, you have to do a lot more thinking in this game and there's definitely a learning curve.

Before ESO, I used to play Lord of the Rings Online a lot, a game with ye olde WoW era combat. Going through 15-20 skills, applying a ton of buffs and debuffs, waiting for the long-ass cooldowns... ESO combat flows naturally, even with animation cancelling that is such a taboo lol. Sure, it's not for everyone, but calling it objectively bad...mkay buddy.

AVaelham

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun wrote: »

I think the subpar animations give the combat the impression of being worse than it really is.

And what exactly would be great animations? Because for the aesthetics of ESO (realism vs. cartoonish), they look just fine to me. Every time I see someone give this critique to ESO, it mostly comes from people who prefer Asian MMO aesthetics or WoW style.

HyekAr

W/OUT COOLDOWN
W/OUT CASTING AND SPELLING SPEEDS

the combat is bassically spaming rotation thats why, I know ppl in my guild who plays with pressing 2 bottons. the only thing you need is make a good combination for dps and an easy rotation. (THERE IS NO TACTICAL/THINKING PLAY, only rotation+several sets )

i am playing since febrary21, and i dont play pvp, only party pve or if i need alliance points or daily riots.
and now, i am checking a set combination to try dungeons solo.. bcz even there: the spam play is killing the magic of the game

Suddwrath

Saieden wrote: »

And what do you mean by endgame?

Trifecta runs in vet trials. Weekly leaderboard runs in vet trials and arenas. Dungeon achievements and skins. You name it.

master_vanargand

I like ESO combat system.
ESO is similar to a fighting game.
ESO combat system is enjoy and exciting.

I don't like WoW and FF14 combat.
The game of watching the cooldown timer is stupid.
Especially PvP of FF14 is garbage.

Supreme_Atromancer

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I hope that there are people here who know that canceling animation in ESO has been not working for a long time. You can't speed up casting through a block or swap for a long time. All wiaving moments were edited by the developers long ago. More than half of the complaints in this thread are not relevant today.

@Parasaurolophus
They changed them, but the animations still often terminate at the new action. If I cast wall of elements, I raise my staff and slam it down. If I weapon swap out of it, all you see is me raise my staff, my staff spins and the spell effect happens while I get the ground shake effect that is presumably coming from the staff slam you never see. Its the literal definition of animation cancelling. Its the same with other skills. Frags proc, I pull my arm back and suddenly I'm blocking, having never launched the frag. My arm goes up for Liquid Lightning. But instantaneously, without any movement, I'm blocking. A moment later the lightning appears. Light attack weaving is the same. My arm twitches and I'm going into the animation of the next thing. Fighting with anim cancelling looks like going up to someone, wiggling my shoulders and all these effects start happening. Its lame.

Parasaurolophus

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I hope that there are people here who know that canceling animation in ESO has been not working for a long time. You can't speed up casting through a block or swap for a long time. All wiaving moments were edited by the developers long ago. More than half of the complaints in this thread are not relevant today.

@Parasaurolophus
They changed them, but the animations still often terminate at the new action. If I cast wall of elements, I raise my staff and slam it down. If I weapon swap out of it, all you see is me raise my staff, my staff spins and the spell effect happens while I get the ground shake effect that is presumably coming from the staff slam you never see. Its the literal definition of animation cancelling. Its the same with other skills. Frags proc, I pull my arm back and suddenly I'm blocking, having never launched the frag. My arm goes up for Liquid Lightning. But instantaneously, without any movement, I'm blocking. A moment later the lightning appears. Light attack weaving is the same. My arm twitches and I'm going into the animation of the next thing. Fighting with anim cancelling looks like going up to someone, wiggling my shoulders and all these effects start happening. Its lame.

But this no longer speeds up the cast as it used to. The only thing that really matters is that you can hide your pvp skills.

Toc de Malsvi

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

… Only issue I can see in ESO is lag at times and animation cancelling - the latter means spamming + 1 skill every second which is awful gameplay.

Seems a lot of people are touching on it, but this is probably the most influential factor.

My friend that originally got me into the ESO beta, didn’t last a week before quitting. And this was long before light attacks were fully embraced.

I stuck it out and played for 5 years before my right index finger started giving me trouble. I tried moving light attack to different buttons, but eventually I had to quit. I thought I would come back, and I logged on a couple times and did some pvp. But it was just too painful in the long run.


There are other problems as well.

-Classes aren’t distinct enough, causing far too much overlap in skill choice and rotation.

-Animations are jarring and feel unimpactful.

-Combat follows a one size fits all formula, and as we all know from baseball caps, one size never really fits all.

Saxhleel

I like ESO combat for an MMORPG. For an Elder Scrolls game it is meh. But this is coming from a guy that thinks Oblivion has the best combat.

Vevvev

Saxhleel wrote: »

I like ESO combat for an MMORPG. For an Elder Scrolls game it is meh. But this is coming from a guy that thinks Oblivion has the best combat.

But Oblivion did have the best combat! Cool moves based off heavy attack + movement, casual spell casting while holding weapons, and neat spells that Skyrim did away with that made things very immersive and fun. (Ignoring the instant death touch spell trick)

Auztinito

It’s because the combat thrives off a bug turned feature with most content balanced around doing said “feature”. So the game is very in accessible to casual players.

From an action rpg POV. It’s horrible. Not to mention, the stats and effects are weirdly named and not broken down. If looters can have a simpler system with stats and effects. Why not this game?
Ex: Division 2 on Stats and Gear systems

Even from a MMO POV. While Action Combat is a plus. Hotbar flipping and Light Attack weaving makes the game feel janky and weightless. Combat has to feel intuitive and fluid especially for Action combat.
Ex: Black Desert Online and/or FFXIV.

Edit: The game would be much better if light attack weaving and damage potential was nerfed drastically. The average player dps was 5-10k, I believe. Knowing that, good players could settle on a max potently of 9-14k. It would solve the difficulty complaints, too.