How do we encourage tanking?

Vhozek

Is there anything we can think of that could be a good request for the devs to add to the game? I was thinking that if your HP is higher than your other stats you get extra EXP.
Edit: I know this isn't the best idea, but it's an example of what type of discussion is expected in this thread.

SydneyGrey

The issue I see with that is then people would make their health higher than their other stats for leveling up new characters, then they'd re-spec the stats after they reached maximum level. Then again, that sounds awesome 'cause then I can level a new character faster. LOL.

Vhozek

SydneyGrey wrote: »

The issue I see with that is then people would make their health higher than their other stats for leveling up new characters, then they'd re-spec the stats after they reached maximum level. Then again, that sounds awesome 'cause then I can level a new character faster. LOL.

More HP at the cost of damage and resources. They'll just feel like tankier non CP characters. Or people can kick them out since DPS are easily replaced. DPS and healers are in desperate need of tanks in queue, so I doubt they would sacrifice their own stats just to get extra EXP AND be the source of a queue/role problem they complain so much about today.

paulsimonps

EXP will not be a sufficient reward for Max CP players or people that don't care about grinding EXP super fast and just get CP as they go along with no real stress about it, and those that do care about Exp to grind CP have plenty of other ways to do it faster as a DPS with Dolmens or Skyreach or doing 4 DPS random normals for first daily EXP and stuff. So if you want to reward tanks, EXP is not the way. One thing to think about as well is that you can't make it something that would be unfair to others, then people will just whine about that or play tanks reluctantly just to get the extra reward but doing a bad job at it. As well you need a better way than just HP to determine who is and who is not a Tank.

Samadhi

SydneyGrey wrote: »

The issue I see with that is then people would make their health higher than their other stats for leveling up new characters, then they'd re-spec the stats after they reached maximum level. Then again, that sounds awesome 'cause then I can level a new character faster. LOL.

HP builds bis for leeching Skyreach runs

Vhozek

I know my idea isn't the best, but I'm expecting people to discuss their own solutions and theories to solving the incredible lack of tanks.

IcyDeadPeople

Vhozek wrote: »

Is there anything we can think of that could be a good request for the devs to add to the game? I was thinking that if your HP is higher than your other stats you get extra EXP.

that would penalize other kinds of tank builds, for example those that use shields instead of high health

Vhozek

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

Is there anything we can think of that could be a good request for the devs to add to the game? I was thinking that if your HP is higher than your other stats you get extra EXP.

that would penalize other kinds of tank builds, for example those that use shields instead of high health

That's true. I didn't think about non HP tanks.

Narvuntien

The main problem is that just questing as a tank is basically impossible chore. So people make dps quest and skyshard hunt and then turn a character into a tank when they need them. So for the most part everyone has a DPS until they reach full build.

Vhozek

Narvuntien wrote: »

The main problem is that just questing as a tank is basically impossible chore. So people make dps quest and skyshard hunt and then turn a character into a tank when they need them. So for the most part everyone has a DPS until they reach full build.

It is a dreadful chore. I hate it.

Wolfchild07

As much as it would be a lot of work, they really need to change the way dungeons work. Requiring specific roles for dungeons is so old fashioned. Yes, having a tank should make it more efficient, but it shouldn't be a must have.

I know, you can do most dungeons without a tank, but for the purpose of queuing for dungeons as a DPS, it shouldn't be a 1.5 hr wait, either.

Verbal_Earthworm

my "super-tank" has more health than anything else to survive one-shotting-bosses and uses health regen gear to out-heal damage. He is often the only one left alive (suddenly) when the party wipes at a boss and he can still tank the boss, tolerate the adds and rez people (and still type).

I am happy to discuss my build with anyone interested in becoming a Super-Tank.

Kiralyn2000

Tanking (and healing), to many, is 'being responsible for the run'. And they don't want that responsibility/pressure/etc. You're not going to get most of them to tank or heal with bribes.

Shortage of tanks & healers for groups & groupfinder has been an issue in MMOs for eons.

code65536

There is no shortage of tanks.

Just a shortage of tanks who are willing to place themselves at the mercy of the poor DPS output of random groups that they--by virtue of being tanks--cannot carry.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Simplest way to encourage Tanking would be a reliable, effective AOE Aggro-grabber.

That tanking in this game relies on a single target, short duration, low aggro attack shows that the DEVs have no real understanding of how an MMORPG is supposed to work.

Zenimax have long clung to the mantra of doing things differently just for the sake of being different, problem is "being different" is only ever successful if "being different" works at least as well as that which you are trying to be different from.

Zenimax's problem is that in a lot of cases "being different" in ESO simply doesn't work as well established alternatives.

Zenimax's saving grace is that when they do get "being different" right it is usually a stellar success.

All The Best

firedrgn

Ya almost everyone starts as dps . Thats kinda thw funnel you get stuck in. Kinda like they give u a bow to start with. You lvl up to relise you can only half azz end game content with bow. Dungeon groups just despise bow bow builds.

Runschei

Personally I'd just like to have the option to NOT run around after skyshards and lorebooks, and mount training for that matter, on every single character. It is the main thing keeping me from actually using more than 2 of my characters.

Juju_beans

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Tanking (and healing), to many, is 'being responsible for the run'. And they don't want that responsibility/pressure/etc. You're not going to get most of them to tank or heal with bribes.

Shortage of tanks & healers for groups & groupfinder has been an issue in MMOs for eons.

I've had several bad experiences as a healer in wow doing dungeons so I stopped doing them and did pvp healing instead.
I'm leveling a templar right now and have been just random healing at dolmens, delves and public dungeons. Also plan to do some pvp healing. I'm on the fence about group dungeon healing in ESO and haven't decided yet if I'm going to venture into that.

danno8

No game has really solved the tank and healer problem.

Levelling and playing the game is faster, easier and completely doable as a DPS. DPS need only 1 set of gear that they can max out and refine to perfection , while tank and healer, if they want to have fun doing non-group content need 2 sets of gear.

In addition, DPS'ing in groups is easier and requires less situational awareness and responsibility than the tank and healer.

Until these issues are addressed (and I think they never will be) the population at large will always go DPS first.

TheDarkShadow

The reason I don't want to build a full heavy tank is because it too slow and boring for questing/landscape... But if I build a kind of dps-tank and Zenimax the prince of RNG doesn't favour me that day, I can end up in a DLC random vet with an average team (a team that doesn't have epic dps to ignore mechanics, but can do it if tank and healer can keep people alive), I would become a weak link.

Suggest: Give us at least 2 "sets" of builds we can swap (skills and attributes). People can swap to tank build when needed with no or little cost (500g for the 1st time, +100 if swap again within 10m like travel to wayshrine penalty).

paulsimonps

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Simplest way to encourage Tanking would be a reliable, effective AOE Aggro-grabber.

That tanking in this game relies on a single target, short duration, low aggro attack shows that the DEVs have no real understanding of how an MMORPG is supposed to work.

Zenimax have long clung to the mantra of doing things differently just for the sake of being different, problem is "being different" is only ever successful if "being different" works at least as well as that which you are trying to be different from.

Zenimax's problem is that in a lot of cases "being different" in ESO simply doesn't work as well established alternatives.

Zenimax's saving grace is that when they do get "being different" right it is usually a stellar success.

All The Best

No sir, you have no understanding how tanking in this game works. Stop asking for AoE taunts, its not needed, its lazy tanking and thank god the devs agree. Its not just different for the sake of being different, its a unique style of tanking that many of the people playing tanks actually prefer, its far more engaging. As well, like code said, the reason you don't see a lot of tanks in PuGs is not cause there is a lack of tanks, there is a lack of tanks willing to subject themselves to the very real possibility of bad DPS pugs that they can't carry.

dodgehopper_ESO

Make it so tanking does not suck when you do everything apart from Trials.

In the non snarky answer: Let us have a complete build swap in our home or something with a flip of a switch.

Linaleah

no, we really could use AoE taunts. I'm getting really really tired of the whole "stop being lazy" crap that's being thrown around. this is a game. game should be fun. and the truth is - tanking in this game is rarely fun. you are either desperately trying to gather the mobs into a tight group for dps to AoE, which they rarely actualy let you do. or you are tanking the boss on almost auto pilot, because unless someone taunts off you, you are pretty much never losing aggro. so.. you might block every once in a while, or interrupt, but mostly you just stand there... refreshing taunt and shields.

not much that i can think of that would fix the boss thing, but just removing a lot of the frustration that comes from trying to control adds against impatient dps IMO would do wonders.

well that and soloing as a tank is just... painful. sure you don't die. but everything else takes forever to die. level as a dps, you say. yeah, sure. that means i now have to gather twice as many skill points (or respec, which is expensive) and i can still forget about actualy playing dps unless I'm also willing to shell out for cp respecs. you can also just go for hybrid cp distribution, but then it becomes a neither fish, nor fowl situation. and at least on pc, I have addons to help me quickly swap gear and skill sets. consoles? have to do it manualy. which is tedious. tedious generally = no fun.

dodgehopper_ESO

danno8 wrote: »

No game has really solved the tank and healer problem.

Levelling and playing the game is faster, easier and completely doable as a DPS. DPS need only 1 set of gear that they can max out and refine to perfection , while tank and healer, if they want to have fun doing non-group content need 2 sets of gear.

In addition, DPS'ing in groups is easier and requires less situational awareness and responsibility than the tank and healer.

Until these issues are addressed (and I think they never will be) the population at large will always go DPS first.

The other issue is that DPS tend to get really bitchy about the Tank or Healer, even when the problem is a DPS problem.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

paulsimonps wrote: »

Its not just different for the sake of being different, its a unique style of tanking that many of the people playing tanks actually prefer, its far more engaging. As well, like code said, the reason you don't see a lot of tanks in PuGs is not cause there is a lack of tanks, there is a lack of tanks willing to subject themselves to the very real possibility of bad DPS pugs that they can't carry.

Clearly not enough people enjoy this type of tanking, otherwise there wouldn't be constant complaints about too few tanks, and ideas on how to fix that.

And as always, when tanking fails, blame the DPS eh?

How original.


All The Best

Vhozek

I think the issue comes with how progression as a tank is incredibly boring and not with how tanks dont wanna deal with crappy dps. I love tanking and I do it in every game I play. This is my first MMO and I remember going to bed earlier than usual while tanking and questing.

Verbal_Earthworm

Off topic but your "PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! " contains a typo making it nonsense.

"Wrip-off" is spelled "Rip-off" and so makes the acronym "PARS".

You might include the O in Rip-off to make "PAROS" which is almost Paris, shame there is no "i".

paulsimonps

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Its not just different for the sake of being different, its a unique style of tanking that many of the people playing tanks actually prefer, its far more engaging. As well, like code said, the reason you don't see a lot of tanks in PuGs is not cause there is a lack of tanks, there is a lack of tanks willing to subject themselves to the very real possibility of bad DPS pugs that they can't carry.

Clearly not enough people enjoy this type of tanking, otherwise there wouldn't be constant complaints about too few tanks, and ideas on how to fix that.

And as always, when tanking fails, blame the DPS eh?

How original.


All The Best

"When tanking fails"........ There are dungeons with DPS limits, aka, have this much DPS or you will fail, so blaming DPS is a very real thing when it comes to Pick up groups, I never PuG veteran dungeons unless its a really easy dungeon and its off hours. I know very few tanks that would ever subject themselves to the chance of getting bad DPS's. Imagine not being able to defeat last boss of Direfrost Keep cause Damage is so low it can't out DPS her heals? I've been in those scenarios, and I end up leaving cause even if I tell them to break free faster nothing I can do then and there will fix their horrible Damage numbers.

So it has nothing to do with too few people enjoying this style of tanking and all to do with the fact that those that tank rarely pug. There will always be more Damage dealers than Tanks and Healers, cause people like to show of their big D Deeps and high numbers but its also the fact that PvE content require more of them, and Tanks are almost by default expected to know everything and never fail mechanics. Everyone expects the tank to be the best tank there is, that pressure turns many people off tanking and healing. Dying or having low DPS in a group of 4 or 12 is not looked down upon as much as being a crappy healer or a tank that needs a lot of support while first starting out.

Do you really think that a AoE Taunt would fix that? Cause I really don't think so, as well that topic has been discussed to death already and not what this thread is about. Giving more incentives for Tanks is a tricky businesses, what can you give them that they would want? Titles? Dyes? Cause loot we already got, same with EXP and Gold.

There are achievements currently relating to Blocking Damage, Taking Damage and Healing Damage in Dungeons and Trials. Expanding on such things could very well give more people and incentive do perform more roles they don't normally do, like Tanking or Healing. Achievements, Titles and Dyes are things that incentivizes A LOT of people, that and motifs and costumes.

Myyth

Since there is no reward system in place that would universally encourage all players to tank the only other way would be to redesign all of the dungeon content so that it is impossible to do without a tank.
They need to change it so that only a player in full heavy armor with shield could possibly absorb the damage output. If a dps tried, they would die, no matter how many CP they have.
Right now only a couple dungeons on veteran mode require a tank. All normal dungeons can be done with just dps players, don't even need a healer either. This is the problem. Players feel that there is no need for a tank so why bother.
.

Tasear

I think the problem is fundamental. There's not enough reason to have a tank. People are even forcing healers to off tank. So if I was to say add a reason why a tank has got to be there. Maybe add mechanic where the lower your health the higher the hit you get from a boss.

#dpsTakingEveryone'sJOBS

EvilAutoTech

I think it goes more to personality and playstyle than anything else. The most fun I've had in eso is tanking. It is more fun with friends than random people but it is still fun to me when group finder works. Sometimes those random people become friends.

I'll admit I'm not the best tank but I'm learning. A need for an aoe taunt probably depends on your build. I don't have enough stamina to use inner beast on a room full of trash mobs, and if I tried, I would not have stamina for interrupts, break free or even much blocking. If I try to use pierce armor on everything, I am running all over the place to keep aggro on ranged mobs. Neither situation is good for the group.

When it comes to pugs there are two things that drive me crazy as a tank. Pet sorc clanfears often re aggro the enemy I'm tanking and eventually the target will be immune to taunting. High CP, high damage deeps often run ahead without giving time for resource regen which can make tanking bosses difficult.

Still, there are only four dungeons I have been in as a tank that I did not complete. RoM, I got knocked through a wall. Wgt, was a bad group with no communication. WS was due to eternal load screen when relogging after loading into a different instance from my group (wtf). And EH1 was a completely empty dungeon for the whole group but we all still had to wait 10 minutes to queue again.