Shadow Cloak still not fixed

R3DTHR3AT

Sorry to see that the basic and unique Nightblade skill still doesn't work properly, despite the announced fixes in every patchnote since game release.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSK0xbv0g0E

As you can see in the video, if you use the skill during animation of troll's light attack you can't avoid damage from it. Moreover, even if it has not begun to cast light attack, cloak disappear ahead of time. It is obvious that this skill in PvP still useless too, because NB you cannot avoid the damage of most part of enemy's skills if they already started to cast them.

If it so difficult to fix Shadow Cloak, maybe it will be better to replace it for some another skill?

From Russia with love, sad khadjiit with empty scooma bottle

Panda244

Honestly if they can't fix the ability then I'd go with replacing it, damage shield or self heal, then every class has one.

MrGhosty

Panda244 wrote: »

Honestly if they can't fix the ability then I'd go with replacing it, damage shield or self heal, then every class has one.

I would love it if they kept the shadow cloak effect we as the player see on screen and just dropped the total invisibility. This would give the nightblade limited visibility (and I can imagine some clever players will maximize on it) and with the drop of invisibility they could add a basic self heal and then in the morphs provide the same basic self heal with a damage shield or a longer duration for greater heals (just off the top of my head, probably not balanced)

Shikardos

agree

ability is rubbish

LegacyDM

@ZOS Don't remove shadow cloak. I know I gave ZOS a lot of grief about this skill in previous posts, but I think I have cracked the nut on how it can be used effectively. So for what its worth, I apologize. Cloak is not broke, like I've been claiming.

I'm going to help explain how to use Shadow cloak effectively as an escape tool in PVP and an attack tool in PVE.

Shadow cloak by itself doesn't work well, as demonstrated in the video. However, in PVP, if combined with decrease detection, movement speed, and stealth, it works pretty good. (Except for the pesky sorc that dots you with curse or crushing shock). Other wise it works really well.

As an escape tool, before you cloak, you must cast crippling grasp on your opponent to get the movement speed buff. Once buff is obtained you can cloak away fairly easily. While cloaked, you must enter stealth. For best effect, make sure you have enough mana to cast 2 - 3 times before hitting stealth to gain distance against opponent. Also for best results, you must have at least 15% stealth decrease from medium gear and a decrease detection radius of 5 meters. I believe the only way to obtain meter decrease is to be either a Khajiit or Wood elf + certain gear. Most of the time you will get away and works even better with dark cloak morph. The decrease is necessary because once you put distance between you and enemy using cloak, this is the minimum, I've time tested, to put you safely in stealth.

In PVE you must combine it with veiled strike. In 1.5 you can permalock most NPCs by cloaking, and casting veiled strike, followed by a stamina damaging attack. I use flurry because by the time the NPC recovers from stun and balance you can recast the cycle over again. This also works against PVP players and does massive damage if they are not quick enough to stun break. However, the difference is you cannot permalock like in PVE, but one cycle does a ton of damage.

Sure, does cloak need some love? Yes because its wonky. However, once you figure out its quirks and combine it with other skills it works decently.

I will admit that it does need some fixing as the video above shows, because as a stand alone skill, it doesn't work well or at all. However, it actually is pretty powerful in PVE and as an escape tool and precursor damage tool in PVP when combined with other skills.

Hope this helps to all you adventurers who struggle trying to get this to work.

Sav72

To be honest . I gave up hope with fixes for NB, I just play the NB/Game the way it is, because there is nothing better out there atm.

Sacadon

In the video, it keeps saying "Target is Immune". I will do some checking but this may be WAI.

Cloak has had major issues since the removing of vamp sneak passive stacking. It wasn't perfect before, but we could at least rely upon it prior to that change. Now, it's flip a coin.

Sacadon

Sacadon wrote: »

In the video, it keeps saying "Target is Immune". I will do some checking but this may be WAI.

Cloak has had major issues since the removing of vamp sneak passive stacking. It wasn't perfect before, but we could at least rely upon it prior to that change. Now, it's flip a coin.

Just tested against same trolls, I received the immunity message, which I amuse is SOP, but cloak did work fine for me.

My first test involved just using Entropy one time so that I had a DoT going, and then got right under the trolls chin and spammed cloak back-to-back to ensure it didn't expire on me. The result was I didn't get hit and the troll actually lost aggro and went back to his place. Also tested this against the bears and cats with swallow soul since cloak had several issues with DoTs in the past. And all this worked.

I went back and re-watched your video... At 0:40-ish you get hit under what appears to be a fully cloaked situation. I speculate that since you were NOT spamming the skill back-to-back, that the troll got a lock on you essentially and the timing of skill and animation were off. I say this because it worked for me spamming the skill non-stop.

So I do think this is most certainly a bug. While it's not major issue on the spectrum of issues, I would have expected Cloak to be damn-near flawless at this point.

ZOS, please look at this one and be very careful when fixing it too!

olsborg

Make shadow cloak a ward like hardened ward, only also give it a stamina morph.

rendolpheb16_ESO

The problem I have so far with Dark Cloak in PvP is few skill by pass the Dark Cloak.

Crushing Shock
Invasion
Critical rush
Ambush
Top Pling charge

Crushing shock is the worst, because the user can detect you even if you vanish 1 second ago.

The other skills I mention are all ''Charge'' skill, eveytime they charge you from long distance and you vanish they will still hit you.

Other then this Dark Cloak fine.

If someone snipe me I just have to Dark Cloak and the arrow miss. Samething for Crystal shard and other projectile.

Sacadon

rendolpheb16_ESO wrote: »

The problem I have so far with Dark Cloak in PvP is few skill by pass the Dark Cloak.

Crushing Shock
Invasion
Critical rush
Ambush
Top Pling charge

Crushing shock is the worst, because the user can detect you even if you vanish 1 second ago.

The other skills I mention are all ''Charge'' skill, eveytime they charge you from long distance and you vanish they will still hit you.

Other then this Dark Cloak fine.

If someone snipe me I just have to Dark Cloak and the arrow miss. Samething for Crystal shard and other projectile.

Hmmm, yeah CS sounds like a bug for sure. I stopped using cloak in PvP because of the issues. So no surprise here. I did plan on using it again for 1.6.

But, and I may remember this incorrectly... I don't think cloak is supposed to win a tie between the gap closing skills.

For example, the game server gets two client/opponent requests within 0-.5 sec of each other... My understanding is that the gap closer wins and gets to execute. But if you're already cloaked in the eyes of the server (not your client and your perception necessarily), then the gap closer should not find you. After all the server made you invisible.

Sometimes you go invis on client side and in the mind/belief too, but the server hasn't yet written that state and here comes along a gap closer, which gets the lock on you. Is this what's happening to you possibly?

In order to prevent such possibilities, the cloak operation would require several perf-impacting phases (1) your execute and 2) server receipt and holding of other attacks against you until it confirms with you that cloak was not called. In order to complete cloak for us there has to be some fancy and blocking-style server comms (not technically always but effectively always) in order to ensure that all other possible enemies within execute range of you cannot hit you when you hit cloak.

Same goes for the teleport abilities too like ambush and streak, the gap closers can get a lock on them if timed properly. This of course is one of the things I love about mistform, it's absolute invis in terms of lock on you after entering and with reduced damage for anything active prior to entering.

Sacadon

Sacadon wrote: »

rendolpheb16_ESO wrote: »

The problem I have so far with Dark Cloak in PvP is few skill by pass the Dark Cloak.

Crushing Shock
Invasion
Critical rush
Ambush
Top Pling charge

Crushing shock is the worst, because the user can detect you even if you vanish 1 second ago.

The other skills I mention are all ''Charge'' skill, eveytime they charge you from long distance and you vanish they will still hit you.

Other then this Dark Cloak fine.

If someone snipe me I just have to Dark Cloak and the arrow miss. Samething for Crystal shard and other projectile.

Hmmm, yeah CS sounds like a bug for sure. I stopped using cloak in PvP because of the issues. So no surprise here. I did plan on using it again for 1.6.

But, and I may remember this incorrectly... I don't think cloak is supposed to win a tie between the gap closing skills.

For example, the game server gets two client/opponent requests within 0-.5 sec of each other... My understanding is that the gap closer wins and gets to execute. But if you're already cloaked in the eyes of the server (not your client and your perception necessarily), then the gap closer should not find you. After all the server made you invisible.

Sometimes you go invis on client side and in the mind/belief too, but the server hasn't yet written that state and here comes along a gap closer, which gets the lock on you. Is this what's happening to you possibly?

In order to prevent such possibilities, the cloak operation would require several perf-impacting phases (1) your execute and 2) server receipt and holding of other attacks against you until it confirms with you that cloak was not called. In order to complete cloak for us there has to be some fancy and blocking-style server comms (not technically always but effectively always) in order to ensure that all other possible enemies within execute range of you cannot hit you when you hit cloak.

Same goes for the teleport abilities too like ambush and streak, the gap closers can get a lock on them if timed properly. This of course is one of the things I love about mistform, it's absolute invis in terms of lock on you after entering and with reduced damage for anything active prior to entering.

I've been thinking about this some more.
Regarding your video and using cloak in advance of and/or in response to an incoming attack. I've never used cloak as an attack avoidance maneuver in the way you are using it in the video. So I'm not entirely convinced it's supposed to immediately remove you from harm like a dodge-roll would to avoid an incoming hit. My understanding is that once an attack is telegraphed, you cannot use cloak to avoid being hit. I may have had this wrong all along since beta and have been missing out on a great tactic for my magicka NB.

Anyone with a definitive on this?

Joy_Division

In my experience from the game, if you do something *during* an enemy attack (like block), most of the time the attack does not get mitigated. I suspect that is why you are getting hit by the troll.

As an aside: please ZoS do *not* remove/replace Shadow Cloak. My NB would be very sad if you did.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

We pinged our dev team about this and have a little clarification as to what is going on in the video you posted, @R3DTHR3AT. (Thank you for that, by the way. It really helped.)

The troll in the video is immune to stuns, which means it will not be affected by Shadow Cloak or any of its morphs. This is due to the troll's "Scary Immunities" passive. This is working as designed.

DDuke

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We pinged our dev team about this and have a little clarification as to what is going on in the video you posted, @R3DTHR3AT. (Thank you for that, by the way. It really helped.)

The troll in the video is immune to stuns, which means it will not be affected by Shadow Cloak or any of its morphs. This is due to the troll's "Scary Immunities" passive. This is working as designed.

So does this mean the "PvP trolls" are also immune to Shadow Cloak?

Because from what I've seen, pretty much anything breaks it (just like on the video).


The skill used to work fine before patch 1.4~, maybe you could have developers compare the code, see what changed and how it could be fixed?

At its current state, it is mostly just a waste of magicka.

Here are videos I recorded a couple months ago, showcasing some of the problems, which still haven't been fixed:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/145718/stealth-cloak-tests-videos


I could record some more footage (from 1.6 PTS), if that'd help.

However, a lot of effort goes into these videos in form of editing, rendering & uploading them, so I'd rather not do that unless I can be sure these issues are taken seriously.

Sacadon

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We pinged our dev team about this and have a little clarification as to what is going on in the video you posted, @R3DTHR3AT. (Thank you for that, by the way. It really helped.)

The troll in the video is immune to stuns, which means it will not be affected by Shadow Cloak or any of its morphs. This is due to the troll's "Scary Immunities" passive. This is working as designed.

Thank you!

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

DDuke wrote: »

So does this mean the "PvP trolls" are also immune to Shadow Cloak?

Because from what I've seen, pretty much anything breaks it (just like on the video).


The skill used to work fine before patch 1.4~, maybe you could have developers compare the code, see what changed and how it could be fixed?

At its current state, it is mostly just a waste of magicka.

Here are videos I recorded a couple months ago, showcasing some of the problems, which still haven't been fixed:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/145718/stealth-cloak-tests-videos

I could record some more footage (from 1.6 PTS), if that'd help.

However, a lot of effort goes into these videos in form of editing, rendering & uploading them, so I'd rather not do that unless I can be sure these issues are taken seriously.

Thanks, @DDuke!

We'll dig into what the change was before 1.4 and what is currently on the PTS. That may take a little time to get an answer to, so maybe hold off on any more video work for now? It may be a simple change that we can report back on. In the meantime, here is a little more clarification on monsters that are immune to Shadow Cloak and its morphs because they're ultimately immune to stuns:

• Bone Colossus
• Daedroth
• Dwarven Centurion
• Frost Atronach
• Gargoyle
• Giant
• Harvester
• Lich
• Mammoth
• Netch Bull
• Storm Atronach
• Titan
• Troll
• Wamasu
• Watcher
• Wispmother

There are also some monsters that have been given the "Scary" or "Boss" immunities in dungeons, Trials, and group boss encounters.

DDuke

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So does this mean the "PvP trolls" are also immune to Shadow Cloak?

Because from what I've seen, pretty much anything breaks it (just like on the video).


The skill used to work fine before patch 1.4~, maybe you could have developers compare the code, see what changed and how it could be fixed?

At its current state, it is mostly just a waste of magicka.

Here are videos I recorded a couple months ago, showcasing some of the problems, which still haven't been fixed:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/145718/stealth-cloak-tests-videos

I could record some more footage (from 1.6 PTS), if that'd help.

However, a lot of effort goes into these videos in form of editing, rendering & uploading them, so I'd rather not do that unless I can be sure these issues are taken seriously.

Thanks, @DDuke!

We'll dig into what the change was before 1.4 and what is currently on the PTS. That may take a little time to get an answer to, so maybe hold off on any more video work for now? It may be a simple change that we can report back on. In the meantime, here is a little more clarification on monsters that are immune to Shadow Cloak and its morphs because they're ultimately immune to stuns:

• Bone Colossus
• Daedroth
• Dwarven Centurion
• Frost Atronach
• Gargoyle
• Giant
• Harvester
• Lich
• Mammoth
• Netch Bull
• Storm Atronach
• Titan
• Troll
• Wamasu
• Watcher
• Wispmoth

There are also some monsters that have been given the "Scary" or "Boss" immunities in dungeons, Trials, and group boss encounters.

Ok, thank you.

I'll test things again at a later date (hopefully soon, though).



I'd also like to mention that several other MMOs I have played have also had similar issues with invisibility/stealth granting skills.

How they have fixed them varies, but a common fix seems giving the invisibility granting ability a short period of total invisibility, when no damage can break it.
After this short period, AoE, DoTs etc are able to break it again.


I believe that adding one second total invisibility (shouldn't prevent damage taken though) to Cloak would fix many of the issues of incoming projectiles & charge attacks breaking it, making it more reliable.
Rest of the cloak timer would work normally (broken by AoEs, DoTs, Magelight & Detection Potions).

Potential issue: people spamming the skill for permanent unbreakable invisibility
Fix for the potential issue: increase cloak cost & duration (making spamming it have bigger drawback) and/or giving it the "Bolt Escape treatment".

In case nothing else you have planned manages to fix the cloak, perhaps this could

deepseamk20b14_ESO

rendolpheb16_ESO wrote: »

The problem I have so far with Dark Cloak in PvP is few skill by pass the Dark Cloak.

Crushing Shock
Invasion
Critical rush
Ambush
Top Pling charge

Crushing shock is the worst, because the user can detect you even if you vanish 1 second ago.

The other skills I mention are all ''Charge'' skill, eveytime they charge you from long distance and you vanish they will still hit you.

Other then this Dark Cloak fine.

If someone snipe me I just have to Dark Cloak and the arrow miss. Samething for Crystal shard and other projectile.

I have made a post about this same thing in the past. I also believe that using shadow image should break LOS for a second as well, but alas neither of these skills really do against the skills you pointed out. It's a pain in the butt.

TheBull

Wow just who gives a damn about mobs. It does the samethings in cryrodill! For months we've been saying charges and projectiles break cloak!

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Just wait till you try cloaking when fighting a DK with Flames of Oblivion slotted...


Remember that auto-setry gun with infrared and motion sensors from the movie Aliens? Its kind of like that.

Nazon_Katts

Ah, so now it is working as intended. Could have said that sooner. Like half a year sooner.

Nazon_Katts

Found it:

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Everyone, we certainly understand that these issues are frustrating, and that the recent round after 1.4.3 are severe. Please understand, though, that there are only certain fixes that can be hotfixed. It depends on many factors such as the complexity of the fix, what gets changed in the code, the degree of testing needed, and more. As mentioned earlier, we do plan on getting these Nightblade fixes into the next patch, which we're still targeting for early next week.

We definitely appreciate your patience and understanding, and letting us know what issues you've run into. The more information we can get, the quicker we can address the issue(s). Thanks again, guys, and we apologize for the frustration that this is causing.

And what about the homing mobs? Those that apparently can see thru stealth and invis? Is this working as intended? And are you aware that those mobs (mainly bosses and storm atronarchs) tend to reset if there's been to many pops in and out of invis?

It's been totally fun getting those down 30% even despite all the current problems, burning thru pots due to this, just to see them jumping to full health and casually walking back to their spawn point again. That's a big fat middle finger right in my face, so thank you for that.

Get your act together and think of some kind of reimbursement for the part of your player base you constantly alienate, maybe a few will stick it out with ya a lil while longer. Maybe.

I was a tad bit agitated back then and would like to apologize for the tone. However, I'd still like to know wether multiple stealth attempts against immune targets is supposed to break combat and reset health and this is working as intended as well.

Thanks @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno

Morvul

DDuke wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So does this mean the "PvP trolls" are also immune to Shadow Cloak?

Because from what I've seen, pretty much anything breaks it (just like on the video).


The skill used to work fine before patch 1.4~, maybe you could have developers compare the code, see what changed and how it could be fixed?

At its current state, it is mostly just a waste of magicka.

Here are videos I recorded a couple months ago, showcasing some of the problems, which still haven't been fixed:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/145718/stealth-cloak-tests-videos

I could record some more footage (from 1.6 PTS), if that'd help.

However, a lot of effort goes into these videos in form of editing, rendering & uploading them, so I'd rather not do that unless I can be sure these issues are taken seriously.

Thanks, @DDuke!

We'll dig into what the change was before 1.4 and what is currently on the PTS. That may take a little time to get an answer to, so maybe hold off on any more video work for now? It may be a simple change that we can report back on. In the meantime, here is a little more clarification on monsters that are immune to Shadow Cloak and its morphs because they're ultimately immune to stuns:

• Bone Colossus
• Daedroth
• Dwarven Centurion
• Frost Atronach
• Gargoyle
• Giant
• Harvester
• Lich
• Mammoth
• Netch Bull
• Storm Atronach
• Titan
• Troll
• Wamasu
• Watcher
• Wispmoth

There are also some monsters that have been given the "Scary" or "Boss" immunities in dungeons, Trials, and group boss encounters.

Ok, thank you.

I'll test things again at a later date (hopefully soon, though).



I'd also like to mention that several other MMOs I have played have also had similar issues with invisibility/stealth granting skills.

How they have fixed them varies, but a common fix seems giving the invisibility granting ability a short period of total invisibility, when no damage can break it.
After this short period, AoE, DoTs etc are able to break it again.


I believe that adding one second total invisibility (shouldn't prevent damage taken though) to Cloak would fix many of the issues of incoming projectiles & charge attacks breaking it, making it more reliable.
Rest of the cloak timer would work normally (broken by AoEs, DoTs, Magelight & Detection Potions).

Potential issue: people spamming the skill for permanent unbreakable invisibility
Fix for the potential issue: increase cloak cost & duration (making spamming it have bigger drawback) and/or giving it the "Bolt Escape treatment".

In case nothing else you have planned manages to fix the cloak, perhaps this could

As a sorcerer player who hates NBs just cloaking to safety like his second worst nightmare - I would 100% support cloak getting 1 second of "perfect" invisibility if it would help fix the miarad of issues plaguing the skill

Navaya

Why don't they just make Shadow Cloak similar to Clouding Swarm? And by that I mean, that the Nightblade that use shadow cloak will still be invisible even if he/she takes damage, just like Clouding Swarm. But if the Nightblade use any attack or spell while using shadow cloak, then it will break. Sure this would be a buff to the Shadow Cloak ability, but it's far better than a broken ability.

I don't support the idea of replacing it. Nightblade is the sneaky kind of class, and without it it will ruin the very essence of Nightblade.

Velcon

From my experience cloak works. What needs to be fixed is the system that tells you when your detected. Not knowing when your detected is what gets most nbs killed. Once your detect by pots, magelight, or mark target the projectile miss effect becomes nullified. "Hidden" is a lie. Other nbs just gotta learn how to use cloak. The game is alot more than pressing an invisible button.

R3DTHR3AT

Velcon wrote: »

From my experience cloak works.

Watch videos from this thread

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/145718/stealth-cloak-tests-videos

Velcon

R3DTHR3AT wrote: »

Velcon wrote: »

From my experience cloak works.

Watch videos from this thread

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/145718/stealth-cloak-tests-videos

My post was about players and we all know it doesn't work right verses mobs and guards on 1.5. So far it works in 1.6 and I hope it still works when it goes live. Dark cloak is one of the best skills in this game.

Cody

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We pinged our dev team about this and have a little clarification as to what is going on in the video you posted, @R3DTHR3AT. (Thank you for that, by the way. It really helped.)

The troll in the video is immune to stuns, which means it will not be affected by Shadow Cloak or any of its morphs. This is due to the troll's "Scary Immunities" passive. This is working as designed.

Cody

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So does this mean the "PvP trolls" are also immune to Shadow Cloak?

Because from what I've seen, pretty much anything breaks it (just like on the video).


The skill used to work fine before patch 1.4~, maybe you could have developers compare the code, see what changed and how it could be fixed?

At its current state, it is mostly just a waste of magicka.

Here are videos I recorded a couple months ago, showcasing some of the problems, which still haven't been fixed:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/145718/stealth-cloak-tests-videos

I could record some more footage (from 1.6 PTS), if that'd help.

However, a lot of effort goes into these videos in form of editing, rendering & uploading them, so I'd rather not do that unless I can be sure these issues are taken seriously.

Thanks, @DDuke!

We'll dig into what the change was before 1.4 and what is currently on the PTS. That may take a little time to get an answer to, so maybe hold off on any more video work for now? It may be a simple change that we can report back on. In the meantime, here is a little more clarification on monsters that are immune to Shadow Cloak and its morphs because they're ultimately immune to stuns:

• Bone Colossus
• Daedroth
• Dwarven Centurion
• Frost Atronach
• Gargoyle
• Giant
• Harvester
• Lich
• Mammoth
• Netch Bull
• Storm Atronach
• Titan
• Troll
• Wamasu
• Watcher
• Wispmother

There are also some monsters that have been given the "Scary" or "Boss" immunities in dungeons, Trials, and group boss encounters.

so its all the enemies I need it the most against; are you serious?

/sigh

Bouvin

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

Ah, so now it is working as intended. Could have said that sooner. Like half a year sooner.

Translation: We have no idea how to fix it after 6 months, so we'll just say its WAI.