How is Animation Canceling not identical to hitting with a feint?

Eldarth

1. Does your PvP opponent get a chance to "see" what spell you are casting to respond or counter it?
2. Does your spell still occur if your opponent "interrupts" you after you have canceled the animation?
3. Can a baseball player hit a home run off a check-swing?
4. How about a touch-down pass off of a pump-fake?
5. Why not cancel dodge animation and just "appear" where you would end up?
6. Can you shoot an arrow without drawing back the bowstring?
7. If I raise my sword for an overhead swing and dodge at the same time how do you get hit?

ZoS "not an exploit" answer for this is just plain ridiculous and caters 1,000% to only the hardcore min/max PvP players.
If you're a casual player (or an older, slower person) and don't learn all the magical twitch-centric special moves, you are going to be at a major disadvantage in PvP and may as well not even bother.

I guess I'm forced to only man siege weapons and/or repairs.

Thanks ZoS.

Sheuib

You could just put an interrupt like crushing shock in your rotation. I am planning for pvp 2 dots then spam crushing shock until time to hit the execute or need to recast the dots. I do have some other spells in there for things that are easier to see like DK wings or a heal reducer.

Panda244

DOTA2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVw-D3-C9bc

Riven

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dDSWESKcho

Just two games with Animation Canceling, I understand it's harder for older folks because they're fingers simply can't move that fast, but it's part of the game, Improvise, Adapt, Overcome. Can't do it with your fingers? Improvise, Adapt, Overcome. Can't do it with third party tools? Improvise, Adapt, Overcome. I think they should let you use a third party tool for it, so people like you and others can do it without worrying about it, Animation Canceling is faster without the third party tool, but only if you have quick fingers and a good keyboard/mouse so you can smash it really quick. As for Roll Dodge Canceling, that's incredibly simple and doesn't require fast fingers, smack the ability and roll dodge directly after it, works like a charm most of the time, and you can increase Roll Dodge sensitivity to make it faster, or slower.

That's all I can tell you man... If you want to practice go beat up mobs in Cyrodill or a low Veteran Rank zone, when I get my Computer back in a week or two I'll let you practice on me if you want, I'm not a master at it, but I do it all the time with Roll Dodge and Light Attacks, I only fully do it in duels when that extra hundred damage from bash can really be the defining moment. It's not an exploit, it never was, it isn't in other games, it requires fast fingers, it is fast fingers, they can't patch it unless they put a global cool-down on every single ability or cut off our fingers, and that would ruin the game, and our fingers....

As far as PvP goes, there's no point to use it in Thornblade gameplay, where you just run around spamming AoE skills and Ultimate Abilities, it doesn't help there, it can only have an advantage in small group play, and 1vX encounters, or 2vX. @Sypher probably wouldn't mind helping you either, if he could fit it into his daily schedule of ERP, Destructive Clench, ERP, ERP, ERP, 1vX Video, ERP.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Can you get confirmation that you can't use a third party program for Animation Canceling Gina? I'd understand why, but it'd help people that don't suffer from twitchy-finger-syndrome.

Eldarth

I understand it is in other games as well, my only real problem is it just seems completely immersion breaking.
If I see someone in the act of casting a spell, I might try to hit them with an interrupt of some kind -- with animation canceling, I simply "receive" damage and have no idea what you did to cause it.

As far as Dodge Roll canceling - I meant canceling the actual dodge animation and just "teleporting" the character to the end-point of the roll. How's that any different? You would just suddenly appear 10 feet away.

What if Mohammed Ali could have just "flexed" and suddenly you had a bloody mouth. It's just lame and a totally unrealistic combat mechanic.

And they could absolutely, easily fix animation canceling by simply canceling the spell cost/damage/effect at the same time.

If I'm casting a spell and an arrow is flying at my head and I dodge, I fully expect that spell to not work and not be cast.

To me it just panders to the FPS crowd even more. It's annoying (IMHO) to see them jumping around like jackas...er, jack-rabbits as well when we've got tab-targeting.

But then again I'm an old-fart and prefer realism to twitch maximized DPS.

@ZOS_GinaBruno -- it would be nice to know if keyboard/mouse macros are okay for us non-young'ns if AC remains.

Panda244

Eldarth wrote: »

I understand it is in other games as well, my only real problem is it just seems completely immersion breaking.
If I see someone in the act of casting a spell, I might try to hit them with an interrupt of some kind -- with animation canceling, I simply "receive" damage and have no idea what you did to cause it.

As far as Dodge Roll canceling - I meant canceling the actual dodge animation and just "teleporting" the character to the end-point of the roll. How's that any different? You would just suddenly appear 10 feet away.

What if Mohammed Ali could have just "flexed" and suddenly you had a bloody mouth. It's just lame and a totally unrealistic combat mechanic.

And they could absolutely, easily fix animation canceling by simply canceling the spell cost/damage/effect at the same time.

If I'm casting a spell and an arrow is flying at my head and I dodge, I fully expect that spell to not work and not be cast.

To me it just panders to the FPS crowd even more. It's annoying (IMHO) to see them jumping around like jackas...er, jack-rabbits as well when we've got tab-targeting.

But then again I'm an old-fart and prefer realism to twitch maximized DPS.

@ZOS_GinaBruno -- it would be nice to know if keyboard/mouse macros are okay for us non-young'ns if AC remains.

I jump around like a Jackalope in PvP........ Because! I spent a week tailing @ezareth_ESO in Cyrodiil and it rubbed off, and now I just do it to make it harder for people to target me off the bat, I don't do it much inside a hard combat situation unless I'm bored, know I'm going to win/live, or I want to die. It's a silly mechanic, but an effective one, it also adds skill to duels, if there wasn't animation canceling, then duels would be essentially who has the highest damaging skill, and spam it over and over.

Eldarth

Panda244 wrote: »

I jump around like a Jackalope in PvP........ Because! I spent a week tailing @ezareth_ESO in Cyrodiil and it rubbed off, and now I just do it to make it harder for people to target me off the bat, ...

Yep. Misinformation. Jumping around has absolutely NO effect on targeting. This is not a FPS.

Simply hit tab and ta-da you're targeted. You're just wasting keypresses/network packets/etc. ...and looking like a jack-a....lope.

Panda244

Eldarth wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

I jump around like a Jackalope in PvP........ Because! I spent a week tailing @ezareth_ESO in Cyrodiil and it rubbed off, and now I just do it to make it harder for people to target me off the bat, ...

Yep. Misinformation. Jumping around has absolutely NO effect on targeting. This is not a FPS.

Simply hit tab and ta-da you're targeted. You're just wasting keypresses/network packets/etc. ...and looking like a jack-a....lope.

They have to be hovering over me with their cursor thingy in order to Tab Target me, and even if I am Tab Targeted, it's not some god-tier auto-aim, you still have to look at me.

Eldarth

Panda244 wrote: »

They have to be hovering over me with their cursor thingy in order to Tab Target me, and even if I am Tab Targeted, it's not some god-tier auto-aim, you still have to look at me.

Hmm, how unusual. It certainly auto-aims and locks on target on my machine. I just tverified it in Cyrodil. I just hit tab when I was pointed "in the general direction" of someone, and it locked on the closest one, tabbing again selected the next one.

But, by all means, feel free to waste your network bandwidth.

Ezareth

Eldarth wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

They have to be hovering over me with their cursor thingy in order to Tab Target me, and even if I am Tab Targeted, it's not some god-tier auto-aim, you still have to look at me.

Hmm, how unusual. It certainly auto-aims and locks on target on my machine. I just tverified it in Cyrodil. I just hit tab when I was pointed "in the general direction" of someone, and it locked on the closest one, tabbing again selected the next one.

But, by all means, feel free to waste your network bandwidth.

Tab targeting only increases the acquisition range of targetable abilities and that is easy enough to test. Hover around the edges of your target until your cursor changes to the "target acquired" identifier. Now tab-target them and try it again. The "target acquired" identifier happens with much more tolerance while they are tab-targeted. It is an absolute must if you want to be effective with power overload and it is also the only thing that allows you to attack a vampire in mist form and time Crystal fragment to hit him just as it wears off.

For the record @Panda244 I jump around like a "jackalope" in PvP not make myself harder to hit but so I can use some abilities while maintaining my forward momentum. I also find that is hones your reflexes, similar to hotkey spamming while playing an RTS.

Ezareth

Eldarth wrote: »

1. Does your PvP opponent get a chance to "see" what spell you are casting to respond or counter it?
2. Does your spell still occur if your opponent "interrupts" you after you have canceled the animation?
3. Can a baseball player hit a home run off a check-swing?
4. How about a touch-down pass off of a pump-fake?
5. Why not cancel dodge animation and just "appear" where you would end up?
6. Can you shoot an arrow without drawing back the bowstring?
7. If I raise my sword for an overhead swing and dodge at the same time how do you get hit?

ZoS "not an exploit" answer for this is just plain ridiculous and caters 1,000% to only the hardcore min/max PvP players.
If you're a casual player (or an older, slower person) and don't learn all the magical twitch-centric special moves, you are going to be at a major disadvantage in PvP and may as well not even bother.

I guess I'm forced to only man siege weapons and/or repairs.

Thanks ZoS.

I don't animation cancel at all, or if I do it is unintentional.

I don't consider myself to be at a major disadvantage at all because of this. There really isn't a major difference between those who do this and those who don't but you'll generally find the majority of skilled players are doing this and thus it is easy to confuse causation with effect.

In 1.6 with the increased effectiveness of light/heavy attacks animation cancelling will likely become much more useful though and I'll probably begin some form of weaving those with my normally attacks.

Panda244

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Eldarth wrote: »

1. Does your PvP opponent get a chance to "see" what spell you are casting to respond or counter it?
2. Does your spell still occur if your opponent "interrupts" you after you have canceled the animation?
3. Can a baseball player hit a home run off a check-swing?
4. How about a touch-down pass off of a pump-fake?
5. Why not cancel dodge animation and just "appear" where you would end up?
6. Can you shoot an arrow without drawing back the bowstring?
7. If I raise my sword for an overhead swing and dodge at the same time how do you get hit?

ZoS "not an exploit" answer for this is just plain ridiculous and caters 1,000% to only the hardcore min/max PvP players.
If you're a casual player (or an older, slower person) and don't learn all the magical twitch-centric special moves, you are going to be at a major disadvantage in PvP and may as well not even bother.

I guess I'm forced to only man siege weapons and/or repairs.

Thanks ZoS.

I don't animation cancel at all, or if I do it is unintentional.

I don't consider myself to be at a major disadvantage at all because of this. There really isn't a major difference between those who do this and those who don't but you'll generally find the majority of skilled players are doing this and thus it is easy to confuse causation with effect.

In 1.6 with the increased effectiveness of light/heavy attacks animation cancelling will likely become much more useful though and I'll probably begin some form of weaving those with my normally attacks.

Well you don't use Force Shock either, I don't think, so there's really no reason to animation canceling with your build. Or at least your old build, I dunno if you changed it.

TheVindelator

Animation canceling is immersion breaking. For that reason alone, it shouldn't be in the game.

Panda244

TheVindelator wrote: »

Animation canceling is immersion breaking. For that reason alone, it shouldn't be in the game.

Any species other than Khajiit riding Senche is immersion breaking. For that reason alone, it shouldn't be in the game.
Cyrodiil is suppose to be a jungle, that's immersion breaking. For this reason alone, it shouldn't be in game.
Not being able to swim underwater is immersion breaking. For this reason alone, you shouldn't be able to swim.

See where I'm going with this... Your statement is invalid, it makes legitimately no sense. If things are immersion breaking and shouldn't be in game you may as well remove half the game, and rebuild it from scratch.

Sheuib

As ezareth stated tab targeting is not a guaranteed hit. It only makes it easier.

I do not purposely animation cancel but I do have my roll dodge sensitivity up high. So I have seen my character roll dodge at the same time as casting a spell. I thought it looked cool. But, it does have its draw backs. I have accidentally rolled off keep walls before too. And, of course, at the worst possible moment. However, the benefits have always outweighed the downfall. So turn up your dodge sensitivity and enjoy.

TheVindelator

Panda244 wrote: »

TheVindelator wrote: »

Animation canceling is immersion breaking. For that reason alone, it shouldn't be in the game.

Any species other than Khajiit riding Senche is immersion breaking. For that reason alone, it shouldn't be in the game.
Cyrodiil is suppose to be a jungle, that's immersion breaking. For this reason alone, it shouldn't be in game.
Not being able to swim underwater is immersion breaking. For this reason alone, you shouldn't be able to swim.

See where I'm going with this... Your statement is invalid, it makes legitimately no sense. If things are immersion breaking and shouldn't be in game you may as well remove half the game, and rebuild it from scratch.

So your conclusion is people should be blocking in order to increase their DPS output?

Kupoking

anim cancelation is like executing a combo move

tplink3r1

ZOS already said it is not "intended", just wait until they fix it.

Shunravi

tplink3r1 wrote: »

ZOS already said it is not "intended", just wait until they fix it.

Don't count on it. go to 44m27s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lhbH7PdEU0#t=44m16s