Hundings Rage Set one of the reasons why stamina builds beat magicka?

Yuke

Hey, i think the following set:




...is one of the reason why there is such a big discrepancy between stamina and magicka builds in 1.6.

There is nothing similar for magicka users out there (craftable + no conditions) and the fact that weapon damage and spell damage are scaling far better than stamina / magicka makes this set too OP.

I can reach up to 3040 weapon damage (with selfbuffs) using hundings rage and some other drop sets which are easy to obtain. This is out of control, plz make some reasonable changes in itemization ZoS.

Thank you.

Helluin

A stamina build can rely upon Agility as passive of Medium armor, so weapon damage receives a great bonus in percentage.
Hunding's Rage is a great set but the discrepancy is because of Agility.

A magicka build instead has no passive working in that way but, as of 1.6.3, Concentration of Light Armor with a set value.
Stack Spell Penetration on gear and traits could be a way to achieve that.
Otherwise it's possible to change Concentration using a percentage or granting X% spell damage.

So this issue is more related to a passive skill than to a gear set imho.

DDuke

Agreed.

It is also ridiculous how this set is now after soft cap removals unarguably stronger than the hardest to get SO/top 2% PvP leaderboard set, Vicious Ophidian.

Either buff other sets (including magicka ones) to its level, or nerf (lots of anger incoming in 3... 2... 1...) Hunding's Rage.

McDoogs

Nerf everything. Why not, right guys? This forum is so full of nerf-herders. Insanity.

LA magicka builds had a huge advantage over stamina builds for...9 months? A year? Balancing is cyclical, it will come back around. Stop crying.

ToRelax

Helluin wrote: »

A stamina build can rely upon Agility as passive of Medium armor, so weapon damage receives a great bonus in percentage.
Hunding's Rage is a great set but the discrepancy is because of Agility.

A magicka build instead has no passive working in that way but, as of 1.6.3, Concentration of Light Armor with a set value.
Stack Spell Penetration on gear and traits could be a way to achieve that.
Otherwise it's possible to change Concentration using a percentage or granting X% spell damage.

So this issue is more related to a passive skill than to a gear set imho.

That would mean Caster in Light armor hits hard against Stamina build in Medium, but even harder the other way around, because you either hit Light armor and probably negate the next to no armor there is, or hit shields without mitigation.
If it's shields, the fact that you still don't crit them balances it somewhat. However, it is with that meta, that stamina seems superior on PTS right now. Some would argue we can't know as there are still damage bugs, but I do think, that this is the case, stamina hits harder and a good player has now better damage avoidance than magicka build AND good healing, no tradeoff, no diversity.
So yeah, magicka and stamina have to be brought more in line regarding their damage (and diversified regarding their means to survive and sustain).

Yuke

Helluin wrote: »

A stamina build can rely upon Agility as passive of Medium armor, so weapon damage receives a great bonus in percentage.
Hunding's Rage is a great set but the discrepancy is because of Agility.

A magicka build instead has no passive working in that way but, as of 1.6.3, Concentration of Light Armor with a set value.
Stack Spell Penetration on gear and traits could be a way to achieve that.
Otherwise it's possible to change Concentration using a percentage or granting X% spell damage.

So this issue is more related to a passive skill than to a gear set imho.

Agility is strong but its a fact that you can only reach ~2550 spell damage (at least i couldnt hit more as a DK without using any short time procs) as a magicka user. This is a difference of 500 in comparison to weapon damage builds and this makes a huge difference in damage because the scaling of weapon damage / spell damage is > magicka / stamina.

Helluin

I think this is compensated by the higher spell penetration compared to armor one.
I want to run some tests using Apprentice as Mundus Stone, Wise Mage 5/5 and Nirnhoned as trait on weapon, but it should be bugged according to a post I read.

An easy option is to change a craftable set like Night Mother's Gaze making it debuffing also Spell Penetration and switching weapon crit with something magicka related.
Anyway, as I wrote in another topic, or devs change something in the scaling system to make hybrid buils viable or many sets require to be completely revisited as bonuses.

Faulgor

Yes. In general, it's much easier to get weapon power than spell power.

I'd also like to see more alternatives to Martial Knowledge, which will become insanely popular after 1.6. I'd say Shalidor's Curse would be a nice craftable set to be reworked into something useful for mages similar to Hunding's Rage, but perhaps somebody likes to use it as it is? Don't know.

Sharkano

Sorry, don't buy the premise. Run tests with weapon power or spell power and you will see that the increase you get from sets nominally increases damage; it's just not that huge. Hundings is not used by too many end-game guys anymore, and will be less so in 1.6, as it has zero defensive help. It is all offense. All you are saying is nerf the offense from an offense set. A set such as seducer, on the magicka side, that reduces spell cost by 8% is far better comparatively. I would much rather have an 8% cost reduction in weapon skill cost than a minor damage buff.

Oughash

Sharkano wrote: »

Sorry, don't buy the premise. Run tests with weapon power or spell power and you will see that the increase you get from sets nominally increases damage; it's just not that huge. Hundings is not used by too many end-game guys anymore, and will be less so in 1.6, as it has zero defensive help. It is all offense. All you are saying is nerf the offense from an offense set. A set such as seducer, on the magicka side, that reduces spell cost by 8% is far better comparatively. I would much rather have an 8% cost reduction in weapon skill cost than a minor damage buff.

This is flat-out wrong. Hundings is incredibly strong. I refer you to the damage equation: ( <Weap/Spell Dmg> * 10.46 + <Stam/Mag> ) * COEF. i.e. 1 point of dmg is equivalent to 10 pts of stamina or magicka --> 300 weapon dmg at the bonus for Hundings is ~3000 stamina.

glavius

Don't bother testing spell penetration with nirnhoned. It's bugged and ignores all spell resists. (except champ line resists which can't be penetrated at all)

Armitas

Just a quick thought. One way to diversify crafting is to have an alternate bench at each applicable craft station depending on what the concept of the set is. The hunding rage concept is clearly a DPS set, where as others may be more questionable like the one that gives soul gems. Questionable sets like this could have a completely different 5 piece bonus whereas others don't need to be that different.

So for hundings rage there would be one extra bench per type. So for example there would be two cloth/medium benches and 2 smithing troth's and 2 woodworking benches. One providing the traditional set, and the other a variation of that same concept if possible.

This set has the base of
2. Crit
3. Max Stat
4. Crit
5. Damage

So the Alternate would be
2. Spell crit
3. Max Magicka
4. Spell Crit
5. Spell damage.

Now using weapon damage and using spell damage are not 1 -1 so the values may need to be different. I'm just speaking conceptually.

Oughash

Armitas wrote: »

Just a quick thought. One way to diversify crafting is to have an alternate bench at each applicable craft station depending on what the concept of the set is. The hunding rage concept is clearly a DPS set, where as others may be more questionable like the one that gives soul gems. Questionable sets like this could have a completely different 5 piece bonus whereas others don't need to be that different.

So for hundings rage there would be one extra bench per type. So for example there would be two cloth/medium benches and 2 smithing troth's and 2 woodworking benches.

This set has the base of
2. Crit
3. Max Stat
4. Crit
5. Damage

So the Alternate would be
2. Spell crit
3. Max Magicka
4. Spell Crit
5. Spell damage.

I would love to have this flexibility!

Beerbill

Armitas wrote: »

Just a quick thought. One way to diversify crafting is to have an alternate bench at each applicable craft station depending on what the concept of the set is. The hunding rage concept is clearly a DPS set, where as others may be more questionable like the one that gives soul gems. Questionable sets like this could have a completely different 5 piece bonus whereas others don't need to be that different.

So for hundings rage there would be one extra bench per type. So for example there would be two cloth/medium benches and 2 smithing troth's and 2 woodworking benches. One providing the traditional set, and the other a variation of that same concept if possible.

This set has the base of
2. Crit
3. Max Stat
4. Crit
5. Damage

So the Alternate would be
2. Spell crit
3. Max Magicka
4. Spell Crit
5. Spell damage.

Now using weapon damage and using spell damage are not 1 -1 so the values may need to be different. I'm just speaking conceptually.

Give me a Warlock/Magnus/Seducer version for stamina users then it's a deal

mb1995b16_ESO

You can reach over 3k spell dmg.... at least as a sorc.... but the loss of magicka reduces your dps so that it isn't worth it.

Helluin

glavius wrote: »

Don't bother testing spell penetration with nirnhoned. It's bugged and ignores all spell resists. (except champ line resists which can't be penetrated at all)

Thanks to confirm it.
I'll have to wait for 1.6.4 and for someone who can craft me some stuff.
Any US player up for it?
I can craft you what you need when EU characters are on PTS.

Sharkano

Running formulas and telling me Hundings is OP is silly. Just go out and kill with the set on and set off. See what the damage change per mobs is. Sure, it's more -- but not anywhere close to the benefit of an 8% stamina cost reduction a la seducer's for magicka. And it provides ZERO defensive benefit. If it was so OP everyone would be wearing it, and they ain't. People vote with their feet and disprove all such academic theories.

billcage

Hundings's Rage set's weapon damage bonus is better than Vicious Ophidian. I cant understand this.Vicious is unique item and lower than crafting item.I think there is a balanced problem about itemization.Need update i think.

DDuke

Sharkano wrote: »

Running formulas and telling me Hundings is OP is silly. Just go out and kill with the set on and set off. See what the damage change per mobs is. Sure, it's more -- but not anywhere close to the benefit of an 8% stamina cost reduction a la seducer's for magicka. And it provides ZERO defensive benefit. If it was so OP everyone would be wearing it, and they ain't. People vote with their feet and disprove all such academic theories.

Cost means nothing when you never run out of resources (most good builds/rotations out there).

There is a very good reason why you never see DPS wearing Seducer in PvE: it provides less DPS.

Same goes for PvP when playing a build not focused on healing or spamming shields: burst people down quick, or go home.


For all these purposes, Hunding's Rage is vastly better than anything else out there.

Oughash

DDuke wrote: »

Sharkano wrote: »

Running formulas and telling me Hundings is OP is silly. Just go out and kill with the set on and set off. See what the damage change per mobs is. Sure, it's more -- but not anywhere close to the benefit of an 8% stamina cost reduction a la seducer's for magicka. And it provides ZERO defensive benefit. If it was so OP everyone would be wearing it, and they ain't. People vote with their feet and disprove all such academic theories.

Cost means nothing when you never run out of resources (most good builds/rotations out there).

There is a very good reason why you never see DPS wearing Seducer in PvE: it provides less DPS.

Same goes for PvP when playing a build not focused on healing or spamming shields: burst people down quick, or go home.


For all these purposes, Hunding's Rage is vastly better than anything else out there.

Exactly. Martial knowledge is about to be all the rage for magicka builds for the same reasons.

If you're out soloing, I agree that sustain sets like seducer are incredibly important. Playing group PvP or end game pve requires burst.

Alcast

Yuke wrote: »

Hey, i think the following set:




...is one of the reason why there is such a big discrepancy between stamina and magicka builds in 1.6.

There is nothing similar for magicka users out there (craftable + no conditions) and the fact that weapon damage and spell damage are scaling far better than stamina / magicka makes this set too OP.

I can reach up to 3040 weapon damage (with selfbuffs) using hundings rage and some other drop sets which are easy to obtain. This is out of control, plz make some reasonable changes in itemization ZoS.

Thank you.

It is not out of control, 3k is still low weapon damage. I guess i better do not tell you how much weap dmg I have
Also, Weapon damage has to be higher as spelldamage to get decent dps.

And if you go 1x 2x 2x 2x 4x you will get more weap dmg than with 5x hundings.

s7732425ub17_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

Agreed.

It is also ridiculous how this set is now after soft cap removals unarguably stronger than the hardest to get SO/top 2% PvP leaderboard set, Vicious Ophidian.

Either buff other sets (including magicka ones) to its level, or nerf (lots of anger incoming in 3... 2... 1...) Hunding's Rage.

Unarguable stronger? 5 piece Vicious Ophidian is stronger all around. Both give two weapon crit bonuses. Both give weapon damage. Hundings gives another 1k stamina (meh), while Vicious gives amazing stamina restore AND super speed boost after kill. This is loads better in PVP than Hundings. In PVE, unless you are only focused on the 10 DPS increase you get from having more stamina from Hundings, Vicious is better all around.

Yuke

Sorry but i dont agree. Offense is anything in 1.6. because

Alcast wrote: »

Yuke wrote: »

Hey, i think the following set:




...is one of the reason why there is such a big discrepancy between stamina and magicka builds in 1.6.

There is nothing similar for magicka users out there (craftable + no conditions) and the fact that weapon damage and spell damage are scaling far better than stamina / magicka makes this set too OP.

I can reach up to 3040 weapon damage (with selfbuffs) using hundings rage and some other drop sets which are easy to obtain. This is out of control, plz make some reasonable changes in itemization ZoS.

Thank you.

It is not out of control, 3k is still low weapon damage. I guess i better do not tell you how much weap dmg I have
Also, Weapon damage has to be higher as spelldamage to get decent dps.

And if you go 1x 2x 2x 2x 4x you will get more weap dmg than with 5x hundings.

But you wont get 2x Crit 1x Stamina and almost 2x WpnDamage with one set.

Alcast

Yuke wrote: »

Sorry but i dont agree. Offense is anything in 1.6. because

Alcast wrote: »

Yuke wrote: »

Hey, i think the following set:




...is one of the reason why there is such a big discrepancy between stamina and magicka builds in 1.6.

There is nothing similar for magicka users out there (craftable + no conditions) and the fact that weapon damage and spell damage are scaling far better than stamina / magicka makes this set too OP.

I can reach up to 3040 weapon damage (with selfbuffs) using hundings rage and some other drop sets which are easy to obtain. This is out of control, plz make some reasonable changes in itemization ZoS.

Thank you.

It is not out of control, 3k is still low weapon damage. I guess i better do not tell you how much weap dmg I have
Also, Weapon damage has to be higher as spelldamage to get decent dps.

And if you go 1x 2x 2x 2x 4x you will get more weap dmg than with 5x hundings.

But you wont get 2x Crit 1x Stamina and almost 2x WpnDamage with one set.

Weap dmg ftw

Dracane

glavius wrote: »

Don't bother testing spell penetration with nirnhoned. It's bugged and ignores all spell resists. (except champ line resists which can't be penetrated at all)

It does not ignore 100% spell resistance. It's high, but it's not 100%, I can say that for sure

DDuke

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agreed.

It is also ridiculous how this set is now after soft cap removals unarguably stronger than the hardest to get SO/top 2% PvP leaderboard set, Vicious Ophidian.

Either buff other sets (including magicka ones) to its level, or nerf (lots of anger incoming in 3... 2... 1...) Hunding's Rage.

Unarguable stronger? 5 piece Vicious Ophidian is stronger all around. Both give two weapon crit bonuses. Both give weapon damage. Hundings gives another 1k stamina (meh), while Vicious gives amazing stamina restore AND super speed boost after kill. This is loads better in PVP than Hundings. In PVE, unless you are only focused on the 10 DPS increase you get from having more stamina from Hundings, Vicious is better all around.

Here's the difference:

Hunding's - 1k more Stamina, 120 Weapon Damage, 16 Critical Rating
Vicious - 8% less costs, +75% movement speed for 3 seconds after kill, 2k stamina after kill

One set gives you significant amount more raw power which is all that matters, while the other gives you niche bonuses that are bugged most of the time and don't even help you during the encounter (PvE or 1v1 PvP).

Edit: forgot to mention, Hunding's has (as of patch 1.6.3) also 16 more Critical Rating, just like any crafted gear vs dropped (for whatever reason)

SanderBuraas

Before you wish to talk about nerfing stamina build sets, do not forget the downsides to playing as one. We share same resource pool for cc break, roll, sprint, block and skills. We also have close to no heal or survivability in comparison to magicka builds.

Kuro1n

I bet they will nerf stamina sets of builds in 1.6.4, and then we are back to same world of magicka again.