Should Talons Be Nerfed? - Why and Why Not.

Panda244

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Joy_Division

Cody wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Well, I am glad neither one of you are King for a day. If everyone were made King for a day, it is clear we'd have a crap game with no useful or interesting abilities.

i don't want to be "king for a day" the fact you think that tells me you have nothing remotely interesting to say; therefore, you are not worth my time. I have seen your type before, and am not going to put up with you. Someone that sits there and makes an entire paragraph about "whiners" is not worth the trouble. I could find you on a topic where YOU don't like something, and call you a whiner on it just the same. so your whole "whiner" speech, is stupid and pointless. goodbye. gl to you with whatever you do next.

Dude, I gave a very detailed and specific post explaining my position earlier in the thread. If you were paying attention or had the capability of even comprehending points of view different than your own, you would not be throwing false accusations my way.

Varicite

I don't feel that Talons needs a nerf in any way, honestly.

However, dodge roll should grant immunity to snares / roots for the duration of the roll. I could've sworn I read somewhere that they were already doing this.

serjomalekrwb17_ESO

mind that i write this while being a DK myself.

Talons may not be hard CC ability , but in a game like ESO when stoping for even a second can be deadly , a low cost, aoe root, that can be successfully combined with DK's banner ultimate is a little overpowered.
no other class in the game can rush into 15+ crowd of people. immobilize them ALL. then drop an ultimate and spam that immobilize until someone dies.

also , its the only ability that can immobilize mist form , and batswarm invisibility.

even if its not hard CC, it does force the enemy to use their stamina to break from it , without granting any immunity from a followup talons a second later.

it must be nerfed or tweaked , unless a DK will burn his mana faster than the enemy burns his stamina , but we all know that a DK in Warlock/seducer can outlast anyone's stamina using the talons.

so basicaly it goes down to this : talons are too cheap for their usefulness and the only way to counter them is too costy.

LegacyDM

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Panda244

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

mind that i write this while being a DK myself.

Talons may not be hard CC ability , but in a game like ESO when stoping for even a second can be deadly , a low cost, aoe root, that can be successfully combined with DK's banner ultimate is a little overpowered.
no other class in the game can rush into 15+ crowd of people. immobilize them ALL. then drop an ultimate and spam that immobilize until someone dies.

also , its the only ability that can immobilize mist form , and batswarm invisibility.

even if its not hard CC, it does force the enemy to use their stamina to break from it , without granting any immunity from a followup talons a second later.

it must be nerfed or tweaked , unless a DK will burn his mana faster than the enemy burns his stamina , but we all know that a DK in Warlock/seducer can outlast anyone's stamina using the talons.

so basicaly it goes down to this : talons are too cheap for their usefulness and the only way to counter them is too costy.

Tab target the vampire using mist form, can then attack him with any ability, including Crippling Grasp, which would stop him, or Encase, which would stop him.

Also, you can't drop Ultimates and spam talons to kill people anymore. That's fixed in 1.6.

LegacyDM

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Sorry meant granting effect. Basically talons can perm stun lock. Fear cannot.

serjomalekrwb17_ESO

Panda244 wrote: »

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

mind that i write this while being a DK myself.

Talons may not be hard CC ability , but in a game like ESO when stoping for even a second can be deadly , a low cost, aoe root, that can be successfully combined with DK's banner ultimate is a little overpowered.
no other class in the game can rush into 15+ crowd of people. immobilize them ALL. then drop an ultimate and spam that immobilize until someone dies.

also , its the only ability that can immobilize mist form , and batswarm invisibility.

even if its not hard CC, it does force the enemy to use their stamina to break from it , without granting any immunity from a followup talons a second later.

it must be nerfed or tweaked , unless a DK will burn his mana faster than the enemy burns his stamina , but we all know that a DK in Warlock/seducer can outlast anyone's stamina using the talons.

so basicaly it goes down to this : talons are too cheap for their usefulness and the only way to counter them is too costy.

Tab target the vampire using mist form, can then attack him with any ability, including Crippling Grasp, which would stop him, or Encase, which would stop him.

Also, you can't drop Ultimates and spam talons to kill people anymore. That's fixed in 1.6.

thats all you can say? its fixed in 1.6?
funny to see a DK , who probably is using Sypher equivalent build protecting this ability.

the fact that its been ****ed up for a year giving DKs the most OP combo in the game , talons + banner + scales, that makes them nearly immortal in melee and ukillable at range/ cannot be justified by ïts getting fixed in 1.6.

Talons remain the cheapest and easyest way to lock your target in on place for as long as you want without even minding the cost because its TOO CHEAP TO CAST.

Panda244

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Talons remain the cheapest and easyest way to lock your target in on place for as long as you want without even minding the cost because its TOO CHEAP TO CAST.

Evocation = Reduces the Magicka cost of Spells by 3% per piece of Light Armor equipped. (Might be old info.)
Let's assume that we have a Dragonknight with 2,500 Magicka and a Nightblade with 2,500 Magicka, both wearing full Light Armor for a total of 21% Spell Cost Reduction, no Sets or additional spell cost reduction will be involved.

Mass Hysteria = 448 Magicka Cost
21% of 448 = 94.08
448 - 94.08 = 353.92 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Burning Talons = 420 Magicka Cost
21% of 420 = 88.2
420 - 88.2 = 331.8 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Now lets see how many times a DK can spam Talons, versus a Nightblade spamming Mass Hysteria.

Dragonknight - Talons
2,500 / 331.8 = 7.53465943339 <- Possible Talon Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

Nightblade - Mass Hysteria
2,500 / 353.92 = 7.06374321881 <- Possible Fear Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

What this means is a Dragonknight will probably get off 8-9 Talons if he spams it over and over depending on his Magicka Recovery and if he's using Seducer, Archmage, or Warlock, while a Nightblade can probably get off 10-12 Fears depending on Magicka Recovery and Seducer/Warlock/Archmage.

Fear provides CC Immunity because it removes the ability to control your character.
Talons does not provide CC Immunity because it does not remove control of your character, it just prevents your character from physically moving.

Talons cannot "Perma-Stun" because it isn't a stun, Puncturing Sweep/Biting Jabs and Blazing Spears, are the only two possible "Perma-Stuns" in game, and they're both fixed in 1.6.

Just because most Dragonknights use Seducer as a set, I'll give you the possible amount of times and the cost for Talons.

Burning Talons = 420 Magicka Cost
21% of 420 = 88.2
8% of 420 = 33.6
420 - 88.2 - 33.6 = 298.2 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Dragonknight - Talons
2,500 / 298.2 = 8.3836351442 <- Possible Talon Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

Now let's get crazy! A Dragonknight with Seducer and Archmage, as well as three cost reduction enchantments.

Burning Talons = 420 Magicka Cost
21% of 420 = 88.2
8% of 420 = 33.6
8% of 420 = 33.6
420 - 88.2 - 33.6 - 33.6 = 264.6
264.6 - 20 - 20 - 20 = 204.6 <- Final Cost

Dragonknight - Talons
2,500 / 204.6 = 12.2189638319 <- Possible Talon Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

Side-note, with this setup Talons will do 266 damage on cast with a 140 DoT. *** poor damage.

So a Dragonknight spec'd completely into cost reduction can use Talons probably 16-18 times depending on his Magicka Recovery, however most DKs only use Seducer, and maybe a Cost Reduction enchantment, meaning that the majority of DKs in Cyrodiil can spam Talons 12-14 times if they wear Seducer and have around 120-140 Magicka Recovery, that's 12-14 times and then they're simply out of Magicka. No Magicka for heals, no Magicka for DPS, no Magicka. As one of my close friends @Thorjagger said. I will link his quote. Once again. For simple. Fact.

Thorjagger wrote: »

DK talon spam. Defining the difference between a good DK and a bad DK.

david.haypreub18_ESO

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

mind that i write this while being a DK myself.

...

so basicaly it goes down to this : talons are too cheap for their usefulness and the only way to counter them is too costy.

That's what I've been saying all along.

Talons should not be cheaper than all the effective counters, like Rapid Maneuvers; the really effective counters should not cost more than the skill they counter, especially if the skill they counter also does initial damage (or else they're not really a counter).

Panda244

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

mind that i write this while being a DK myself.

...

so basicaly it goes down to this : talons are too cheap for their usefulness and the only way to counter them is too costy.

That's what I've been saying all along.

Talons should not be cheaper than all the effective counters, like Rapid Maneuvers; the really effective counters should not cost more than the skill they counter, especially if the skill they counter also does initial damage (or else they're not really a counter).

Someone obviously didn't read my post.......

serjomalekrwb17_ESO

Panda244 wrote: »

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Talons remain the cheapest and easyest way to lock your target in on place for as long as you want without even minding the cost because its TOO CHEAP TO CAST.

Evocation = Reduces the Magicka cost of Spells by 3% per piece of Light Armor equipped. (Might be old info.)
Let's assume that we have a Dragonknight with 2,500 Magicka and a Nightblade with 2,500 Magicka, both wearing full Light Armor for a total of 21% Spell Cost Reduction, no Sets or additional spell cost reduction will be involved.

Mass Hysteria = 448 Magicka Cost
21% of 448 = 94.08
448 - 94.08 = 353.92 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Burning Talons = 420 Magicka Cost
21% of 420 = 88.2
420 - 88.2 = 331.8 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Now lets see how many times a DK can spam Talons, versus a Nightblade spamming Mass Hysteria.

Dragonknight - Talons
2,500 / 331.8 = 7.53465943339 <- Possible Talon Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

Nightblade - Mass Hysteria
2,500 / 353.92 = 7.06374321881 <- Possible Fear Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

What this means is a Dragonknight will probably get off 8-9 Talons if he spams it over and over depending on his Magicka Recovery and if he's using Seducer, Archmage, or Warlock, while a Nightblade can probably get off 10-12 Fears depending on Magicka Recovery and Seducer/Warlock/Archmage.

Fear provides CC Immunity because it removes the ability to control your character.
Talons does not provide CC Immunity because it does not remove control of your character, it just prevents your character from physically moving.

Talons cannot "Perma-Stun" because it isn't a stun, Puncturing Sweep/Biting Jabs and Blazing Spears, are the only two possible "Perma-Stuns" in game, and they're both fixed in 1.6.

Just because most Dragonknights use Seducer as a set, I'll give you the possible amount of times and the cost for Talons.

Burning Talons = 420 Magicka Cost
21% of 420 = 88.2
8% of 420 = 33.6
420 - 88.2 - 33.6 = 298.2 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Dragonknight - Talons
2,500 / 298.2 = 8.3836351442 <- Possible Talon Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

Now let's get crazy! A Dragonknight with Seducer and Archmage, as well as three cost reduction enchantments.

Burning Talons = 420 Magicka Cost
21% of 420 = 88.2
8% of 420 = 33.6
8% of 420 = 33.6
420 - 88.2 - 33.6 - 33.6 = 264.6
264.6 - 20 - 20 - 20 = 204.6 <- Final Cost

Dragonknight - Talons
2,500 / 204.6 = 12.2189638319 <- Possible Talon Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

Side-note, with this setup Talons will do 266 damage on cast with a 140 DoT. *** poor damage.

So a Dragonknight spec'd completely into cost reduction can use Talons probably 16-18 times depending on his Magicka Recovery, however most DKs only use Seducer, and maybe a Cost Reduction enchantment, meaning that the majority of DKs in Cyrodiil can spam Talons 12-14 times if they wear Seducer and have around 120-140 Magicka Recovery, that's 12-14 times and then they're simply out of Magicka. No Magicka for heals, no Magicka for DPS, no Magicka. As one of my close friends @Thorjagger said. I will link his quote. Once again. For simple. Fact.

Thorjagger wrote: »

DK talon spam. Defining the difference between a good DK and a bad DK.

so u say that 12 hits of Talons that will do a total of 2.5k+ dmg + DOT dmg + holding your target at one place for the duration , is not as good as mass hysteria ( that controll only 3 people and make them open a gap between you and them making it harder to kill them in a team fight?)? whatever.
Plus the talons provide the DK with theFlame lash followup option , giving them another400 FREE HEAL AND DMG.

Panda244

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Talons remain the cheapest and easyest way to lock your target in on place for as long as you want without even minding the cost because its TOO CHEAP TO CAST.

Evocation = Reduces the Magicka cost of Spells by 3% per piece of Light Armor equipped. (Might be old info.)
Let's assume that we have a Dragonknight with 2,500 Magicka and a Nightblade with 2,500 Magicka, both wearing full Light Armor for a total of 21% Spell Cost Reduction, no Sets or additional spell cost reduction will be involved.

Mass Hysteria = 448 Magicka Cost
21% of 448 = 94.08
448 - 94.08 = 353.92 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Burning Talons = 420 Magicka Cost
21% of 420 = 88.2
420 - 88.2 = 331.8 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Now lets see how many times a DK can spam Talons, versus a Nightblade spamming Mass Hysteria.

Dragonknight - Talons
2,500 / 331.8 = 7.53465943339 <- Possible Talon Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

Nightblade - Mass Hysteria
2,500 / 353.92 = 7.06374321881 <- Possible Fear Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

What this means is a Dragonknight will probably get off 8-9 Talons if he spams it over and over depending on his Magicka Recovery and if he's using Seducer, Archmage, or Warlock, while a Nightblade can probably get off 10-12 Fears depending on Magicka Recovery and Seducer/Warlock/Archmage.

Fear provides CC Immunity because it removes the ability to control your character.
Talons does not provide CC Immunity because it does not remove control of your character, it just prevents your character from physically moving.

Talons cannot "Perma-Stun" because it isn't a stun, Puncturing Sweep/Biting Jabs and Blazing Spears, are the only two possible "Perma-Stuns" in game, and they're both fixed in 1.6.

Just because most Dragonknights use Seducer as a set, I'll give you the possible amount of times and the cost for Talons.

Burning Talons = 420 Magicka Cost
21% of 420 = 88.2
8% of 420 = 33.6
420 - 88.2 - 33.6 = 298.2 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Dragonknight - Talons
2,500 / 298.2 = 8.3836351442 <- Possible Talon Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

Now let's get crazy! A Dragonknight with Seducer and Archmage, as well as three cost reduction enchantments.

Burning Talons = 420 Magicka Cost
21% of 420 = 88.2
8% of 420 = 33.6
8% of 420 = 33.6
420 - 88.2 - 33.6 - 33.6 = 264.6
264.6 - 20 - 20 - 20 = 204.6 <- Final Cost

Dragonknight - Talons
2,500 / 204.6 = 12.2189638319 <- Possible Talon Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

Side-note, with this setup Talons will do 266 damage on cast with a 140 DoT. *** poor damage.

So a Dragonknight spec'd completely into cost reduction can use Talons probably 16-18 times depending on his Magicka Recovery, however most DKs only use Seducer, and maybe a Cost Reduction enchantment, meaning that the majority of DKs in Cyrodiil can spam Talons 12-14 times if they wear Seducer and have around 120-140 Magicka Recovery, that's 12-14 times and then they're simply out of Magicka. No Magicka for heals, no Magicka for DPS, no Magicka. As one of my close friends @Thorjagger said. I will link his quote. Once again. For simple. Fact.

Thorjagger wrote: »

DK talon spam. Defining the difference between a good DK and a bad DK.

so u say that 12 hits of Talons that will do a total of 2.5k+ dmg + DOT dmg + holding your target at one place for the duration , is not as good as mass hysteria ( that controll only 3 people and make them open a gap between you and them making it harder to kill them in a team fight?)? whatever.

What idiot. Is going to stand there and let a DK do that... Oh wait.. Don't answer, half of the players in Cyrodiil do it, which is why this thread exists in the first place. Arguing with people that will stop at nothing to nerf a class that's been nerfed the last three patches and in 1.6, is finally on par with the other three clases?

Go bring your persistence to nerf DKs into a buff Sorcs thread, they need it.

@Armitas 10-35, requesting back up. I repeat, 10-35 in progress. Send units to reinforce thread 1581701!

serjomalekrwb17_ESO

you miss the point , i used Sypher build myself for a while and i know how things work , i just refuse to agree that it is a fair play ability considering the low cost + dmg and the many ways i can utilize them into my advantage , NO OTHER CLASS has a skill , THAT cheap , and THAT usefull. no matter how hard you Try to tell us otherwise.

and keep your mouth clean kid , you kiss your mother with it.

from Your signature u are also a SAP tank , those useless pricks who run into a crowd spaming Sap to gain ultimate and then batswarm /repeat.

u are the lowest and the worst type of PvPer , why do i even argue with ya.

Panda244

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

you miss the point , i used Sypher build myself for a while and i know how things work , i just refuse to agree that it is a fair play ability considering the low cost + dmg and the many ways i can utilize them into my advantage , NO OTHER CLASS has a skill , THAT cheap , and THAT usefull. no matter how hard you Try to tell us otherwise.

and keep your mouth clean kid , you kiss your mother with it.

Mouths' clean unless you find the word idiot offensive, apologies.

Restraining Prison = 420.28 Magicka Cost (With just the Light Armor passive, this ability is practically the exact same as Talons, except it's a cone, not an AoE. It also has a snare after it ends, so technically, when used right, it's better than Talons.)

Daedric Minefield = 530.88 Magicka Cost (With just Light Armor, this ability however is a tad bit expensive, but it's got the same general idea as Talons, and you can place it somewhere, ignore it, and still catch people with it. So basically, place it in a breach, and catch people running in.)

Restraining Prison = 377.72 Magicka Cost with Seducer and 7/7 light armor, Sorcerer's tend to have more maximum magicka than DKs, so this ability, combined with the Seducer set, is essentially the EXACT same ability as Talons, but in a cone instead, and it's just as spammable.

So your statement of "NO OTHER CLASS" is void. Restraining Prison is JUST as useful if not MORE useful than Talons, because when it ends, the targets are snared.

Nerf Talons, nerf Encase/Restraining Prison, essentially the exact same abilities. The other morph of Encase, costs the same, and deals 220ish damage when it ends or if you roll out of it. So... Once again... You're wrong. Give me a paragraph long legitimate reason as to why Talons needs to be nerfed but not Encase, and I'll understand... But just nerfing Talons when Sorcerers have essentially the EXACT same ability WITH a snare when it ends. I'd trade Talons for Restraining Prison in a heart beat.

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

from Your signature u are also a SAP tank , those useless pricks who run into a crowd spaming Sap to gain ultimate and then batswarm /repeat.

u are the lowest and the worst type of PvPer , why do i even argue with ya.

N'tel is a werewolf... But okay... @vortexman11 can confirm this...

serjomalekrwb17_ESO

SNARE IS USLESS. i can still Critical charge you for 900 dmg with it on me , Talost keep me still.
restraining Prison will not save you when a Nightblade ambush you in the back while u hold off another melle infront.
talons will.
Prison does not give the sorc a 100% followup of 400-600 DMG + HEAL.

and talons are still cheaper with more Damage overall.

Panda244

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

SNARE IS USLESS. i can still Critical charge you for 900 dmg with it on me , Talost keep me still.
restraining Prison will not save you when a Nightblade ambush you in the back while u hold off another melle infront.
talons will.
Prison does not give the sorc a 100% followup of 400-600 DMG + HEAL.

and talons are still cheaper with more Damage overall.

Snare prevents the target from running away, and where is the heal coming from... Talons doe- Oh, flame lash? Well what do you suppose then?

You can't give Talons a CC Immunity timer or you break the skill, not to mention every other Root in the game will need one, because balance. So what do you propose? Remove the damage aspect? Leave it as an AoE Root with a synergy? That would help a little...

serjomalekrwb17_ESO

an AoE root with a synergy sounds great actualy...... that way the dmg from this skill will come only when supported by a friendly , leaving the other perks untouched. its a considerable amount of DMG removed....

Panda244

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

an AoE root with a synergy sounds great actualy...... that way the dmg from this skill will come only when supported by a friendly , leaving the other perks untouched. its a considerable amount of DMG removed....

I wouldn't mind this particular change, Ultimate gen is broke in 1.6, damage from skills doesn't proc it.. So it won't effect my ultimate gen, just my damage, and not a lot at that... I still don't think Talons needs a nerf, but if it gets one, this is the best route.

Wahee

My issues with talons are mainly due to how it is used in competitive guild group pvp. Almost every good guild group has a contingent of S&B DKs at the front who basically do nothing but invasion/talons and ult drops. Talons is perfectly fine in small fights, but when you get 10+ DKs all spamming it things get silly quickly. It is flat out impossible to get anywhere near a decent guild group without being rooted every 1/2 second. Keep in mind that you cannot dodge ground based AOE damage, so you can and will die mid dodge roll when fighting these kind of groups.

Talons is impossible to balance. It is fine in small scale and extremely silly in large scale. I think a decent solution would be to make the root blockable (like almost every other root in the game) to at least give some kind of counter to being perma-rooted.

serjomalekrwb17_ESO

Wahee wrote: »

My issues with talons are mainly due to how it is used in competitive guild group pvp. Almost every good guild group has a contingent of S&B DKs at the front who basically do nothing but invasion/talons and ult drops. Talons is perfectly fine in small fights, but when you get 10+ DKs all spamming it things get silly quickly. It is flat out impossible to get anywhere near a decent guild group without being rooted every 1/2 second. Keep in mind that you cannot dodge ground based AOE damage, so you can and will die mid dodge roll when fighting these kind of groups.

Talons is impossible to balance. It is fine in small scale and extremely silly in large scale. I think a decent solution would be to make the root blockable (like almost every other root in the game) to at least give some kind of counter to being perma-rooted.

Or that

LegacyDM

Panda244 wrote: »

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Talons remain the cheapest and easyest way to lock your target in on place for as long as you want without even minding the cost because its TOO CHEAP TO CAST.

Evocation = Reduces the Magicka cost of Spells by 3% per piece of Light Armor equipped. (Might be old info.)
Let's assume that we have a Dragonknight with 2,500 Magicka and a Nightblade with 2,500 Magicka, both wearing full Light Armor for a total of 21% Spell Cost Reduction, no Sets or additional spell cost reduction will be involved.

Mass Hysteria = 448 Magicka Cost
21% of 448 = 94.08
448 - 94.08 = 353.92 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Burning Talons = 420 Magicka Cost
21% of 420 = 88.2
420 - 88.2 = 331.8 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Now lets see how many times a DK can spam Talons, versus a Nightblade spamming Mass Hysteria.

Dragonknight - Talons
2,500 / 331.8 = 7.53465943339 <- Possible Talon Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

Nightblade - Mass Hysteria
2,500 / 353.92 = 7.06374321881 <- Possible Fear Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

What this means is a Dragonknight will probably get off 8-9 Talons if he spams it over and over depending on his Magicka Recovery and if he's using Seducer, Archmage, or Warlock, while a Nightblade can probably get off 10-12 Fears depending on Magicka Recovery and Seducer/Warlock/Archmage.

Fear provides CC Immunity because it removes the ability to control your character.
Talons does not provide CC Immunity because it does not remove control of your character, it just prevents your character from physically moving.

Talons cannot "Perma-Stun" because it isn't a stun, Puncturing Sweep/Biting Jabs and Blazing Spears, are the only two possible "Perma-Stuns" in game, and they're both fixed in 1.6.

Just because most Dragonknights use Seducer as a set, I'll give you the possible amount of times and the cost for Talons.

Burning Talons = 420 Magicka Cost
21% of 420 = 88.2
8% of 420 = 33.6
420 - 88.2 - 33.6 = 298.2 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Dragonknight - Talons
2,500 / 298.2 = 8.3836351442 <- Possible Talon Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

Now let's get crazy! A Dragonknight with Seducer and Archmage, as well as three cost reduction enchantments.

Burning Talons = 420 Magicka Cost
21% of 420 = 88.2
8% of 420 = 33.6
8% of 420 = 33.6
420 - 88.2 - 33.6 - 33.6 = 264.6
264.6 - 20 - 20 - 20 = 204.6 <- Final Cost

Dragonknight - Talons
2,500 / 204.6 = 12.2189638319 <- Possible Talon Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

Side-note, with this setup Talons will do 266 damage on cast with a 140 DoT. *** poor damage.

So a Dragonknight spec'd completely into cost reduction can use Talons probably 16-18 times depending on his Magicka Recovery, however most DKs only use Seducer, and maybe a Cost Reduction enchantment, meaning that the majority of DKs in Cyrodiil can spam Talons 12-14 times if they wear Seducer and have around 120-140 Magicka Recovery, that's 12-14 times and then they're simply out of Magicka. No Magicka for heals, no Magicka for DPS, no Magicka. As one of my close friends @Thorjagger said. I will link his quote. Once again. For simple. Fact.

Thorjagger wrote: »

DK talon spam. Defining the difference between a good DK and a bad DK.

so u say that 12 hits of Talons that will do a total of 2.5k+ dmg + DOT dmg + holding your target at one place for the duration , is not as good as mass hysteria ( that controll only 3 people and make them open a gap between you and them making it harder to kill them in a team fight?)? whatever.

What idiot. Is going to stand there and let a DK do that... Oh wait.. Don't answer, half of the players in Cyrodiil do it, which is why this thread exists in the first place. Arguing with people that will stop at nothing to nerf a class that's been nerfed the last three patches and in 1.6, is finally on par with the other three clases?

Go bring your persistence to nerf DKs into a buff Sorcs thread, they need it.

@Armitas 10-35, requesting back up. I repeat, 10-35 in progress. Send units to reinforce thread 1581701!

Have you actually played anything other than DK? Noone stands still. DKs keep perm locking dodge rolling toons. As much as one dodges, a DK will keep up, and spam talons till you run out of resources.

You ignored my comment. Fear is a hard CC and generally can only be used once in a fight before either player dies. Fear is also useless against someone effected by stun immunity. No, give me perm lock over a fear any day.

Armitas

Panda can jump into an entire raid on his NB and not die, he plays DK and NB equally well.

Fear now removes block. If you are taloned you can still block, if you are feared you are a sitting duck. Fear will now be very effective.
______________
You can't remove the upfront damage on talons. It costs 420 magicka to cast talons, if someone rolls out of it then it neither CC's them or damages them. You can't have a skill cost 420 magicka and do nothing. That doesn't even cover the invade cost just to reapply talons.

Varicite

Armitas wrote: »

You can't remove the upfront damage on talons. It costs 420 magicka to cast talons, if someone rolls out of it then it neither CC's them or damages them. You can't have a skill cost 420 magicka and do nothing. That doesn't even cover the invade cost just to reapply talons.

How would you justify Encase, then? You do know that it costs more than Talons to cast, right? And the "damage morph" still does less damage than Talons unmorphed?

Just curious why you can't remove the upfront damage from one, but it's totally cool for the other.

Joy_Division

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Are you joking? There is no defense against fear and you are completely incapable of defending yourself when under its effect.

Go ahead and talon spam me...I don't care because unlike what is being erroneously reported in this thread it is not cheap, it is not a high damage, I can still block, attack, and cast spells when under its effects.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Panda244 wrote: »

serjomalekrwb17_ESO wrote: »

an AoE root with a synergy sounds great actualy...... that way the dmg from this skill will come only when supported by a friendly , leaving the other perks untouched. its a considerable amount of DMG removed....

I wouldn't mind this particular change, Ultimate gen is broke in 1.6, damage from skills doesn't proc it.. So it won't effect my ultimate gen, just my damage, and not a lot at that... I still don't think Talons needs a nerf, but if it gets one, this is the best route.

I'd be up for that.

Panda244

Armitas wrote: »

Panda can jump into an entire raid on his NB and not die, he plays DK and NB equally well.

Fear now removes block. If you are taloned you can still block, if you are feared you are a sitting duck. Fear will now be very effective.
______________
You can't remove the upfront damage on talons. It costs 420 magicka to cast talons, if someone rolls out of it then it neither CC's them or damages them. You can't have a skill cost 420 magicka and do nothing. That doesn't even cover the invade cost just to reapply talons.

D'awwww thanks Armitas, but yeah. Come 1.6, Fear will be blatantly stronger than Talons, and no class will be able to spam any abilities until they get 300ish CP.

LegacyDM

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Are you joking? There is no defense against fear and you are completely incapable of defending yourself when under its effect.

Go ahead and talon spam me...I don't care because unlike what is being erroneously reported in this thread it is not cheap, it is not a high damage, I can still block, attack, and cast spells when under its effects.

Are you joking? On 1.5 you can stun break fear. Don't lie to win an argument. And once you stun break, you get CC immunity. I haven't tested this on 1.6, but I doubt ZOS would remove stun break ability from fear, else it would be too powerful as a hard CC.

Panda244

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Are you joking? There is no defense against fear and you are completely incapable of defending yourself when under its effect.

Go ahead and talon spam me...I don't care because unlike what is being erroneously reported in this thread it is not cheap, it is not a high damage, I can still block, attack, and cast spells when under its effects.

Are you joking? On 1.5 you can stun break fear. Don't lie to win an argument. And once you stun break, you get CC immunity. I haven't tested this on 1.6, but I doubt ZOS would remove stun break ability from fear, else it would be too powerful as a hard CC.

You can still CC break Fear in 1,6, it now Fears three people and makes your character stop blocking while Feared, meaning it's essentially a death sentence.

LegacyDM

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Are you joking? There is no defense against fear and you are completely incapable of defending yourself when under its effect.

Go ahead and talon spam me...I don't care because unlike what is being erroneously reported in this thread it is not cheap, it is not a high damage, I can still block, attack, and cast spells when under its effects.

Not sure how it is on 1.6 but on 1.5 you can anti stun

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Are you joking? There is no defense against fear and you are completely incapable of defending yourself when under its effect.

Go ahead and talon spam me...I don't care because unlike what is being erroneously reported in this thread it is not cheap, it is not a high damage, I can still block, attack, and cast spells when under its effects.

Are you joking? On 1.5 you can stun break fear. Don't lie to win an argument. And once you stun break, you get CC immunity. I haven't tested this on 1.6, but I doubt ZOS would remove stun break ability from fear, else it would be too powerful as a hard CC.

You can still CC break Fear in 1,6, it now Fears three people and makes your character stop blocking while Feared, meaning it's essentially a death sentence.

lol over exaggeration much? A death sentence?! Let's analyze some scenarios. DKs have insane damage mitigation to begin with due to tank spells/skills/armor, so going into a fight your going to most likely be buffed before feared which will negate most damage that occurs in the 1 sec it takes for you to break the fear, raise shield, and begin counter attack.oh and you most likely have 3500-4k+ hp on top of that. if your a sorc, in 1 sec, you break fear, dodge roll and BE to safety, if needed, or counter attack. If your a Templar you break fear and cast blazing shield and counter attack. If your a night blade you break fear and dodge roll away using cloak to stealth, if needed, or counter attack. Do you see a pattern?

I'm not buying your instant death sentence argument. And who cares if it fears three people. All three people can stun break and obliterate the caster in a counter attack.

I'm sorry, but in its current form, talons provides much more utility than fear due to perma spam causing perma lock in place. No one can dodge roll away without stamina being depleted and becoming a sitting duck, or stun break talons. Heck someone earlier in the post said they couldn't even BE away while taloned (not sure if that's true but that's what he said). Talons accomplishes the following: It perma drains stamina to dodge rolling toons, doesn't allow for escape, and does damage too. Fear does none of that. I think if you ever play a NB you'll find fear, while its good, is also frustrating due to the reasons mentioned above. I use fear but I can tell u the effects of talons is far more advantageous.