Alliance War 10 Grind Completely Unreasonable

Recremen

yodased wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

[Edit]: @yodased It would probably also help you to look into the d-tick mechanics and such. You can get 60k AP/hr by just sitting at the right keep not doing anything (even more!). A dedicated day with good fighting can easily be 150K AP + if you are doing the right things (and that is solo).

150k AP per day doing nothing? Are you a Nigerian prince? I have sat at keeps doing nothing for days and never got 150k AP.

Why doesn't everyone have 4,500,000 AP at the end of the campaign? I mean I'm on Haderus so that may be why, but the most I have EVER seen on there has been < 1,000,000 and thats within 7 days or about 142,000 per 24 hour period.

I really think that's the best takaway we can get from this. Go to Thornblade, look at the people on the leaderboard. At the end of the 30 days, what's their score look like? How many people will be able to come even close to that? Anyone who plays PvP in a serious capacity knows that 60k an hour just isn't going to happen by sitting around a keep. Forward camps are gone, nobody's getting huge defensive ticks anymore and the bads aren't going to come pouring out of the lumber mill in a steady trickle.

Domander

Bouvin wrote: »

I think the AP farmers should have to re-grind their AP for these skills.

Just like the rest of us with multiple VR character have to regrind our XP to get CP.

Anyone who "grinds" xp for champion points is doing it wrong and probably going to quit.

Go have fun, get champion points as you do it, it's great.

Asgari

I have it on 2 characters. Stop making excuses and earn it like the rest of us! If it wasn't hard to get people wouldn't try for it. Stop trying to easy mode everything.

Karamis_Vimardon

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I have it on 2 characters. Stop making excuses and earn it like the rest of us! If it wasn't hard to get people wouldn't try for it. Stop trying to easy mode everything.

This^

What's to say it's fair lowering the AP needed after so many players have already invested the time and effort to get it?

Put the big boy boots on and go get some sweet, sweet booty!

timidobserver

PvPers have to grind undaunted passives and undaunted sets. PVErs have to grind the new pvp skills. I am okay with that.

yodased

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I have it on 2 characters. Stop making excuses and earn it like the rest of us! If it wasn't hard to get people wouldn't try for it. Stop trying to easy mode everything.

Farming people when you could insta-spawn at the keeps with unlimited camps is not the PVP of today. I challenge you to do it in the scope of today's PVP campaigns.

WolfingHour

timidobserver wrote: »

PvPers have to grind undaunted passives and undaunted sets. PVErs have to grind the new pvp skills. I am okay with that.

Except the time spent on both endeavours isn't the least bit comparable.

That's the problem here. It's not that we want everything now in a plate, but rather just a bit more accessible.

Karamis_Vimardon

yodased wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I have it on 2 characters. Stop making excuses and earn it like the rest of us! If it wasn't hard to get people wouldn't try for it. Stop trying to easy mode everything.

Farming people when you could insta-spawn at the keeps with unlimited camps is not the PVP of today. I challenge you to do it in the scope of today's PVP campaigns.

Put your money where you mouth is and do the same then? Leave rank 10 AP alone

timidobserver

WolfingHour wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

PvPers have to grind undaunted passives and undaunted sets. PVErs have to grind the new pvp skills. I am okay with that.

Except the time spent on both endeavours isn't the least bit comparable.

That's the problem here. It's not that we want everything now in a plate, but rather just a bit more accessible.

Actually, the undaunted sets are less accessible given that they are completely open-ended. It could take a week or 5 years to get that light divine valkyn skoria helm and shoulder. With the PVP ranks, you know exactly what is necessary to reach the required rank.

yodased

@markgd88nrb18_ESO well not sure if you pay attention, but I have been in Haderus every damn day trying to get to rank

Also, I have not said anything about changing it in my personal opinion yet, I have simply presented the situation in a way that I hoped could shed some perspective.

If its level 10 or level 100 I personally will grind it out because I want it, doesn't mean I have to like it though.

WolfingHour

timidobserver wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

PvPers have to grind undaunted passives and undaunted sets. PVErs have to grind the new pvp skills. I am okay with that.

Except the time spent on both endeavours isn't the least bit comparable.

That's the problem here. It's not that we want everything now in a plate, but rather just a bit more accessible.

Actually, the undaunted sets are less accessible given that they are completely open-ended. It could take a week or 5 years to get that light divine valkyn skoria helm and shoulder. With the PVP ranks, you know exactly what is necessary to reach the required rank.

5 years? Lol

Quite hyperbolic.

timidobserver

WolfingHour wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

PvPers have to grind undaunted passives and undaunted sets. PVErs have to grind the new pvp skills. I am okay with that.

Except the time spent on both endeavours isn't the least bit comparable.

That's the problem here. It's not that we want everything now in a plate, but rather just a bit more accessible.

Actually, the undaunted sets are less accessible given that they are completely open-ended. It could take a week or 5 years to get that light divine valkyn skoria helm and shoulder. With the PVP ranks, you know exactly what is necessary to reach the required rank.

5 years? Lol

Quite hyperbolic.

It is RNG. The time required to get what you need is open-ended. You could potentially never get what you want. On the other hand, you know exactly what you need to do to get those new skills.

Asgari

yodased wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I have it on 2 characters. Stop making excuses and earn it like the rest of us! If it wasn't hard to get people wouldn't try for it. Stop trying to easy mode everything.

Farming people when you could insta-spawn at the keeps with unlimited camps is not the PVP of today. I challenge you to do it in the scope of today's PVP campaigns.

Ariana Kishi was created after the camp removal in November.

Ariana Kishi is AvA 26 already.

Ariana Kishi has been Empress Twice.


I think I beat your challenge 10 fold.

Kuro1n

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I have it on 2 characters. Stop making excuses and earn it like the rest of us! If it wasn't hard to get people wouldn't try for it. Stop trying to easy mode everything.

Farming people when you could insta-spawn at the keeps with unlimited camps is not the PVP of today. I challenge you to do it in the scope of today's PVP campaigns.

Ariana Kishi was created after the camp removal in November.

Ariana Kishi is AvA 26 already.

Ariana Kishi has been Empress Twice.


I think I beat your challenge 10 fold.

How much time do you spend playing per day? You are not exactly the average player in terms of playtime you know. The average player will have absolutely no chance of ever getting rank 10, I feel it is quite the task myself and I am known to be both quite the grinder. Of course if you play DK or some other aoe class it could potentially be easier but not everyone is playing those. Personally for me as a stamina NB it is hell. Perhaps that will change somewhat in the update but IMO swapping the skill from 10 to 8 is not very unfair considering you will still have a skill that is 'unique' that most people simply wont get.

EDIT: To be honest I just checked through a few of your vids on youtube and the highest AP/h I saw was something like 25k/h (that is not your average though as it was constantly ticking down, that means it is ~310 hours to get that rank 10, if we assume the average player spends 2-3 hours playing per day with maybe half of that AP/h we can quickly figure out he will have to spend a total of 249 days (unless i made a mistake calculating (((7,8kk/25k)/2.5)*2) playing PVP every day to reach there. You really feel that this skill should be given to players who have that amounts of time to spare while the rest of the casuals trail behind by faaaaaar?

Personally I think the CP advantage you will have will be enough, if you are truly a good player then you shouldn't need a ton of extra stats to perform good.

lostavalon

The ap needed to get AW10 shouldn't be reduced at all, not everything should be given out easily just because its there.
but being an Aussie and usually only able to play 2-3 hrs a day it is gonna suck trying to get an alt up to AW10,
i would be quite happy if they made it account wide tho ^_^

Cody

Let me explain my opinion on this from my POV. Feel free to disagree, just do not cuss me out

I have played PvP since the days of hopesfire(truly awful campaign hopesfire was; some of the AD there had absolutely no honor or good sportsmanship, but that is beside the point) I have played PvP mainly with three characters, and i still remember them.

1st one is Doctor sleep, for about 3 months

2nd one is Sucks-at-math for about 3 months

3rd one is Kills-while-sneaking, my current main.

NONE of these characters have reached rank 10 in these skill lines.(i deleted the 1st two, so they most certainly wont be reaching it:/) I think KWS is at 7 in them? after what.... 3-4 months of PvP?

and this was back before I started taking these AP classes, and before i started volunteering at the hospital every tuesday and thrusday. The amount of homework i usually have takes till at LEAST 6PM to finish... often 7:30-8:00, and this is on days when I am NOT working at the hospital.

I do not have the time to do the long grind to reach the required rank for these abilities. and that's for ONE character; imagine if I were to try this with multiple characters. How far would I get in 4 months? maybe rank 3 in each of them? Imagine this for someone else in my position? or someone who has a job? Not all of us can play 16-20 hours a night; not all of us have absolutely nothing to do during the day, for some of us, just getting 10K AP in a day is a blessing; not all of us get 200K AP a day(nor do i know how one even begins to do this) and these ranks already start taking almost 100K AP just at 4 and/or 5.... how the heck is a casual player supposed to cover all of that?

and the reason why this rank is now so crucial, is because all of the soon to be vital PvP abilities are what awaits at the end of this long and senseless grind. vigor will be the ONLY self heal I will have access to with my main. I do not use 2H, nor do i use a resto staff. Strife does not give much healing due to the fact 95% of my opponents either block cast or use a lot of damage shields; both of which completely or almost completely negate any healing strife can give me. Therefore, the only way i can keep myself up in a fight will be this new self heal... yet it will take me getting to almost the end of this huge grind just to get it... Do any of y'all have any idea how frustrating that is for people like me??? Since launch this game has been all about grinding everything: NOT ALL OF US HAVE THE TIME TO GRIND EVERYTHING. this is part of the reason why veteran ranks are such a failure!

I do not mind working for something; but ones success in this game does not need to , nor should it, be 100% about grinding everything. I play this game to have fun, not sit thru mind numbing grinds just to get an ability i absolutely need.

so there, that is my POV on this topic. Feel free to respond in whatever manner you think is appropriate

Kuro1n

I absolutely agree Cody and I suspect I have a bit more time than you do. Please zos, read and understand the amount of grind that is currently needed.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

Sacadon

The length of time to progress the alliance ranks has been well known by ZOS for a while now. Now they put a carrot out in front of you and you say that the length of time required to get it is unreasonable.

You didn't have it before now and you don't need it now. If you really want it, then make it a higher priority in your life and focus on it. I've seen people sleep 2/hr/day for a week to get emp, and others take time away from school and work to accomplish such things. I don't do this because RL is more important to me, but I'm not asking ZOS to make it easier for me either.

....Now the AP/ XP rate itself has long been an issue for dedicated PvP players. Fix the root cause problem and your carrot will be attainable more quickly. But hopefully at a pace that's balanced across the game.

So let's fix root cause and this will improve.

Sacadon

yodased wrote: »

@markgd88nrb18_ESO well not sure if you pay attention, but I have been in Haderus every damn day trying to get to rank

Also, I have not said anything about changing it in my personal opinion yet, I have simply presented the situation in a way that I hoped could shed some perspective.

If its level 10 or level 100 I personally will grind it out because I want it, doesn't mean I have to like it though.

Harderus is known for smaller battles and less opportunities for AP. With the right guild, you can usually avg. 20K/hr easily in Thornblade. Not sure which faction you play but DC needs more and EP has enough, lol.

seancaputo_ESO

This is the main difference between FPS players and MMO.

FPS gets trophies and Tags for achievement having fun with an even playing field around SKILL, even hackers can't hack themselves SKILL.

MMO - based on little skill with mechanics, and rewarding players that spend their life trying to OP over other players from their Lack of Skill.

The MMO world just does not get it.

Give me World PvP, All skills with their relative counter part... Range VS Melee, DOTS, Burst Damage equal. And let players have $#@!%$@#%^@#$ FUN. This game will blow up with player playing, no one complaining... That one element Secret World got right... no one could OP you on character skills and damage.. just configuration. WHY DO I need to GRIND a Toon up to play PVP. It's just plain insane. Give everyone maxed out and let us configure our toons and pick a race. PVP will be jammed packed.... Leave the grinding to the PVE'ers and Roll Players....

I bet PVP in PST is way better and balanced than in live server. At least give us a room with a toon that can have everything without the grind. Watch...

Sacadon

There's a clear and wide disparity between skilled and non in Cyrodiil. Even when builds are the same. I started with PvE and now it's boring because it's all too easy (trials excluded). What I learned from this is that your skill is what sets you apart, not the skill on your skill bar.

Nothing forces you to grind and it's not required to enjoy PvP. ESO PvP is definitely not for everyone. There's not a constant set of achievement dings... The rewards are meta (various kills) and game (the war). They do need more carrots past AvA level 10 though.

Asgari

Kuro1n wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I have it on 2 characters. Stop making excuses and earn it like the rest of us! If it wasn't hard to get people wouldn't try for it. Stop trying to easy mode everything.

Farming people when you could insta-spawn at the keeps with unlimited camps is not the PVP of today. I challenge you to do it in the scope of today's PVP campaigns.

Ariana Kishi was created after the camp removal in November.

Ariana Kishi is AvA 26 already.

Ariana Kishi has been Empress Twice.


I think I beat your challenge 10 fold.

How much time do you spend playing per day? You are not exactly the average player in terms of playtime you know. The average player will have absolutely no chance of ever getting rank 10, I feel it is quite the task myself and I am known to be both quite the grinder. Of course if you play DK or some other aoe class it could potentially be easier but not everyone is playing those. Personally for me as a stamina NB it is hell. Perhaps that will change somewhat in the update but IMO swapping the skill from 10 to 8 is not very unfair considering you will still have a skill that is 'unique' that most people simply wont get.

EDIT: To be honest I just checked through a few of your vids on youtube and the highest AP/h I saw was something like 25k/h (that is not your average though as it was constantly ticking down, that means it is ~310 hours to get that rank 10, if we assume the average player spends 2-3 hours playing per day with maybe half of that AP/h we can quickly figure out he will have to spend a total of 249 days (unless i made a mistake calculating (((7,8kk/25k)/2.5)*2) playing PVP every day to reach there. You really feel that this skill should be given to players who have that amounts of time to spare while the rest of the casuals trail behind by faaaaaar?

Personally I think the CP advantage you will have will be enough, if you are truly a good player then you shouldn't need a ton of extra stats to perform good.

I won't have any CP advantage. My advantage in PvP comes from me putting forth more effort than you. If you want it; try harder. Unlocking level 10 should be a grind and so should such a cheap and vast heal. It only makes stam builds better and a increased gap to magicka.

yodased

try harder? great advice. Any AD pvp groups available for a scrub DK to join and get this massive AP from?

Apparently I am doing it wrong.

sagitter

I love it, i hope they will implement more ava abilities and more ava levels for abilities!!!! i'm sorry for you, you don't know Daoc maybe.
Thanks zos i really hope for more ava abilities and levels in the future.

Suntzu1414

AvA Skill Level 10 = Alliance level 26 (if i'm correct).


In my 11 months playing, I've met 10 people (with this rank).
So, I don't think its a question of excessive requirements or not.


The real questions is --Will this skill ever be used ??
(or are you just making skills to fill in boxes....stam heal --check!)


Of these 10 dedicated (and highly skilled) players-- 6 of them are DK....no need for Vigor. So whom does this skill serve?

If you are just going to make things...difficult. Really...and your are...
Why not just ELIMINATE skills (completely). Stop jerking us around..


Common Sense. If this skill, is really meant to be used, then open it up...so it can be USED.


Kill Well
ST

Cody

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Kuro1n wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I have it on 2 characters. Stop making excuses and earn it like the rest of us! If it wasn't hard to get people wouldn't try for it. Stop trying to easy mode everything.

Farming people when you could insta-spawn at the keeps with unlimited camps is not the PVP of today. I challenge you to do it in the scope of today's PVP campaigns.

Ariana Kishi was created after the camp removal in November.

Ariana Kishi is AvA 26 already.

Ariana Kishi has been Empress Twice.


I think I beat your challenge 10 fold.

How much time do you spend playing per day? You are not exactly the average player in terms of playtime you know. The average player will have absolutely no chance of ever getting rank 10, I feel it is quite the task myself and I am known to be both quite the grinder. Of course if you play DK or some other aoe class it could potentially be easier but not everyone is playing those. Personally for me as a stamina NB it is hell. Perhaps that will change somewhat in the update but IMO swapping the skill from 10 to 8 is not very unfair considering you will still have a skill that is 'unique' that most people simply wont get.

EDIT: To be honest I just checked through a few of your vids on youtube and the highest AP/h I saw was something like 25k/h (that is not your average though as it was constantly ticking down, that means it is ~310 hours to get that rank 10, if we assume the average player spends 2-3 hours playing per day with maybe half of that AP/h we can quickly figure out he will have to spend a total of 249 days (unless i made a mistake calculating (((7,8kk/25k)/2.5)*2) playing PVP every day to reach there. You really feel that this skill should be given to players who have that amounts of time to spare while the rest of the casuals trail behind by faaaaaar?

Personally I think the CP advantage you will have will be enough, if you are truly a good player then you shouldn't need a ton of extra stats to perform good.

I won't have any CP advantage. My advantage in PvP comes from me putting forth more effort than you. If you want it; try harder. Unlocking level 10 should be a grind and so should such a cheap and vast heal. It only makes stam builds better and a increased gap to magicka.

ok, i will enjoy spending the next 6 months grinding my way to the new skill. I will manage it in my 3-6 hour a day periods, and by 6 months time i will have the rank. I will find time to play after the [snip] ton of homework and work I have to do, and, again, over a period of 6 months, I will, maybe, have this rank.

but wait, what if they release an even BETTER skill by that point? which requires yet ANOTHER long, mind numbing grind?

Guess I had better stop using the build I have spent over 4 months creating and improving on, and turn my character's build into a boring AP farm build just so i can get one [snip] ability. then spend even more gold and create more crap for the respec back to my old build; and that's after i am forced to level up skill lines i wont even use just to do it, and waste skill points on skills just to do this AP farming.

for [snip] sake is this really what you want ESO to turn into? a boring grind


you got AVA 26 in just 2.5 months, good for you, but not everyone has that kind of time on their hands, and not everyone plays a build solely geared toward mass group fighting/AP gain. the average player does not generate 20K AP an hour, the average player does not generate 200K AP per day, the average player does not even play long enough to get that AP per day. If ZOS wants this game to succeed, they have to give both the hardcore peeps and the casual peeps some love. I don't mind grinds in general, but making one of the only 2 stamina based heals in the game take so long to get is close to cruel in my book, as most people are going to take over 5 months just to get to the rank. Meaning, for 5 months, I am going to be complete crap in PvP. How the hell is that fun? do you really think people bought this game to put up with that crap?

and do not give me the "you have to work for it" or "you should have to try to be good" you playing 16-20 hours a day ALREADY MAKES YOU BETTER THAN MOST PEOPLE. so why is it such a problem that people want a stamina heal, which, again, is one of the only two in the entire game, to not take 3-5 months to get? I am sick of seeing people make the "you have to work to be good" argument. again, you playing twice the time most people do, makes you fantastic already, the fact you think people having access to a skill will really be that harmful to the game worries me.

im... sorry:/ this topic is important to me.


/sigh


alright, im done. Iv said enough.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

WolfingHour

timidobserver wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

PvPers have to grind undaunted passives and undaunted sets. PVErs have to grind the new pvp skills. I am okay with that.

Except the time spent on both endeavours isn't the least bit comparable.

That's the problem here. It's not that we want everything now in a plate, but rather just a bit more accessible.

Actually, the undaunted sets are less accessible given that they are completely open-ended. It could take a week or 5 years to get that light divine valkyn skoria helm and shoulder. With the PVP ranks, you know exactly what is necessary to reach the required rank.

5 years? Lol

Quite hyperbolic.

It is RNG. The time required to get what you need is open-ended. You could potentially never get what you want. On the other hand, you know exactly what you need to do to get those new skills.

Two things. First, the discussion is about the skills not the gear. If you want to compare undaunted gear to anything in PvP do so to the elite vendor bags. Second, just because the probability of an event is low doesn't mean that it will never happen or that it will surely take long, which is something that you are trying to imply to fit your argument.

Side note - I also really hate rng. It's just as a mindless grind as all those alliance ranks.

WolfingHour

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I have it on 2 characters. Stop making excuses and earn it like the rest of us! If it wasn't hard to get people wouldn't try for it. Stop trying to easy mode everything.

Farming people when you could insta-spawn at the keeps with unlimited camps is not the PVP of today. I challenge you to do it in the scope of today's PVP campaigns.

Ariana Kishi was created after the camp removal in November.

Ariana Kishi is AvA 26 already.

Ariana Kishi has been Empress Twice.


I think I beat your challenge 10 fold.

So i take it that you exclusively PvP?

I'm glad that you beat that challenge ten fold or more and still had fun. That's good! Glad that some of us are having fun unlike say... myself, @yodased‌ or @Cody‌.

Sotha_Sil

I'm ok with the grind as long as we get account shared ranks and alliance war 10 rank for those skills would be ok with that option. Otherwise, I will never play another character and get bored...

kkampaseb17_ESO

Cody wrote: »

Let me explain my opinion on this from my POV. Feel free to disagree, just do not cuss me out

I have played PvP since the days of hopesfire(truly awful campaign hopesfire was; some of the AD there had absolutely no honor or good sportsmanship, but that is beside the point) I have played PvP mainly with three characters, and i still remember them.

1st one is Doctor sleep, for about 3 months

2nd one is Sucks-at-math for about 3 months

3rd one is Kills-while-sneaking, my current main.

NONE of these characters have reached rank 10 in these skill lines.(i deleted the 1st two, so they most certainly wont be reaching it:/) I think KWS is at 7 in them? after what.... 3-4 months of PvP?

and this was back before I started taking these AP classes, and before i started volunteering at the hospital every tuesday and thrusday. The amount of homework i usually have takes till at LEAST 6PM to finish... often 7:30-8:00, and this is on days when I am NOT working at the hospital.

I do not have the time to do the long grind to reach the required rank for these abilities. and that's for ONE character; imagine if I were to try this with multiple characters. How far would I get in 4 months? maybe rank 3 in each of them? Imagine this for someone else in my position? or someone who has a job? Not all of us can play 16-20 hours a night; not all of us have absolutely nothing to do during the day, for some of us, just getting 10K AP in a day is a blessing; not all of us get 200K AP a day(nor do i know how one even begins to do this) and these ranks already start taking almost 100K AP just at 4 and/or 5.... how the heck is a casual player supposed to cover all of that?

and the reason why this rank is now so crucial, is because all of the soon to be vital PvP abilities are what awaits at the end of this long and senseless grind. vigor will be the ONLY self heal I will have access to with my main. I do not use 2H, nor do i use a resto staff. Strife does not give much healing due to the fact 95% of my opponents either block cast or use a lot of damage shields; both of which completely or almost completely negate any healing strife can give me. Therefore, the only way i can keep myself up in a fight will be this new self heal... yet it will take me getting to almost the end of this huge grind just to get it... Do any of y'all have any idea how frustrating that is for people like me??? Since launch this game has been all about grinding everything: NOT ALL OF US HAVE THE TIME TO GRIND EVERYTHING. this is part of the reason why veteran ranks are such a failure!

I do not mind working for something; but ones success in this game does not need to , nor should it, be 100% about grinding everything. I play this game to have fun, not sit thru mind numbing grinds just to get an ability i absolutely need.

so there, that is my POV on this topic. Feel free to respond in whatever manner you think is appropriate

I am working 50 hours per week minimum as a postdoctoral researcher, I am doing 2 martial arts vigorously and I still managed to reach rank 30 with the one character I play since the early access of the game. I don't see why you complain? You will have offdays and vacations. Don't act like your whole life goes at the pace you described. Aim for something that will take you more than just a couple of months to achieve and try to achieve it when you got time.'

P.S. I am a stamina character currently (live servers) and I tried the skill in PTS. Let me tell you I won't be using it on live.