Alliance War 10 Grind Completely Unreasonable

sabresandiego_ESO

Now that two new key abilities are in the game, magicka detonation and vigor, this grind which used to be kinda optional has now become extremely important. Vigor is essential to the viability of many stamina builds in PVP.

The amount of time it takes to get alliance war rank 10 is so ridiculous, it makes leveling to vet 14 look easy. No person that has a semblance of a normal life has the time to do this type of grind on multiple characters. It makes leveling alts completely futile, because nobody wants to do the grind twice.

This needs to be fixed in 1.6. The alliance war grind to unlock abilities and passives needs to be DRASTICALLY reduced and made account wide, the insane grind is not healthy for the game.

ItsRejectz

Man, everyone wants everything NOW and easy. It's an MMO, get used to having to put lots of time in to get certain things.

This community sometimes, shesh......

Bouvin

I think the AP farmers should have to re-grind their AP for these skills.

Just like the rest of us with multiple VR character have to regrind our XP to get CP.

reften

I'm a casual gamer, have 1 VR14 character. A PvP mostly. And am at level 8.5. Figure probably another 3-4 months to get to level 10.

My undaunted level is stuck at 4 though, and I don't see that budging.

So..so what? Why do you have to be max level at everything? Is this because of the "everyone gets a trophy" generation? I dunno.

What will you do when you're level 10? My guess is, you'll be that much closer to leaving the game because there is nothing to build towards. Guessing Zos doesn't want that.

sabresandiego_ESO

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Man, everyone wants everything NOW and easy. It's an MMO, get used to having to put lots of time in to get certain things.

This community sometimes, shesh......

Games are for fun, not for work. Earning something "reasonable" is fine. This is not a "reasonable" grind. It takes MONTHS of playing casually, maybe even half a year or a year to get alliance rank 10. This is not "reasonable"

When people stop having fun, and start feeling like they are "working" instead of playing, thats when people quit playing.

Weberda

When I work to achieve a higher level with my character the reward should be commensurate with the effort. That's what we have here. Any suggestion that these skills should be available on lower levels is simply another example of the entitlement attitude prevalent in many players nowadays.

david.haypreub18_ESO

It seems a bit excessive to me. I've played casually (but steadily) since launch. I have on VR14 and one level 48. I mostly play PvP... and I am just rank 7. I am looking at at least another 3 months for rank 10. That's over a year of steady playing (casually, I admit) before getting a key skill for my stamina build. It's a judgment call, but I find that a bit much. Bump it down to 7 or 8, and that seems reasonable.

ItsRejectz

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Man, everyone wants everything NOW and easy. It's an MMO, get used to having to put lots of time in to get certain things.

This community sometimes, shesh......

Games are for fun, not for work. Earning something "reasonable" is fine. This is not a "reasonable" grind. It takes MONTHS of playing casually, maybe even half a year or a year to get alliance rank 10. This is not "reasonable"

When people stop having fun, and start feeling like they are "working" instead of playing, thats when people quit playing.

Then don't grind for the skill, it's that simple. I'm sorry but it's a God damn MMO. If you unlock everything after a few week people will be kicking off eventually, as they will have nothing to aim for.

End of the day, in a game like this there needs to be certain things that are hard to obtain.I remember people in GW2 having to spend around 6 months farming achievements, just to get a skin.

sabresandiego_ESO

ItsRejectz wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Man, everyone wants everything NOW and easy. It's an MMO, get used to having to put lots of time in to get certain things.

This community sometimes, shesh......

Games are for fun, not for work. Earning something "reasonable" is fine. This is not a "reasonable" grind. It takes MONTHS of playing casually, maybe even half a year or a year to get alliance rank 10. This is not "reasonable"

When people stop having fun, and start feeling like they are "working" instead of playing, thats when people quit playing.

Then don't grind for the skill, it's that simple. I'm sorry but it's a God damn MMO. If you unlock everything after a few week people will be kicking off eventually, as they will have nothing to aim for.

End of the day, in a game like this there needs to be certain things that are hard to obtain.I remember people in GW2 having to spend around 6 months farming achievements, just to get a skin.

Its an mmo, and good MMO's let you earn things with a reasonable time investment. If you don't understand what reasonable means, then perhaps you should be deleveled to level 5, and then the experience to gain levels should be multiplied by 100x. Enjoy taking 20 years to max level, you earned it.

NoRefunds

skills that are overpowered and necessary for some builds cannot be behind a grind wall of 6 months,otherwise new players or people leveling an alt will just quit the game, you guys are talking like this only because you already have rank 10 and want and edge over new players

Snit

It's no more 'unreasonable' than 3,600 CP's at 400k a pop

It will be interesting to watch player reactions when more realize that they'll probably never 'finish' their character, even if they play eight hours a night for a year. Personally, I like the idea of infinite advancement, of never being capped out. But many will hate hate hate it.

Sales of forum popcorn will increase.

Weberda

NoRefunds wrote: »

skills that are overpowered and necessary for some builds cannot be behind a grind wall of 6 months,otherwise new players or people leveling an alt will just quit the game, you guys are talking like this only because you already have rank 10 and want and edge over new players

I have two toons in PVP and neither is rank 10 yet. And these skills aren't OP either. And people are not going to quit the game over these. That's a silly statement.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

ItsRejectz wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Man, everyone wants everything NOW and easy. It's an MMO, get used to having to put lots of time in to get certain things.

This community sometimes, shesh......

Games are for fun, not for work. Earning something "reasonable" is fine. This is not a "reasonable" grind. It takes MONTHS of playing casually, maybe even half a year or a year to get alliance rank 10. This is not "reasonable"

When people stop having fun, and start feeling like they are "working" instead of playing, thats when people quit playing.

Then don't grind for the skill, it's that simple. I'm sorry but it's a God damn MMO. If you unlock everything after a few week people will be kicking off eventually, as they will have nothing to aim for.

End of the day, in a game like this there needs to be certain things that are hard to obtain.I remember people in GW2 having to spend around 6 months farming achievements, just to get a skin.

Its an mmo, and good MMO's let you earn things with a reasonable time investment. If you don't understand what reasonable means, then perhaps you should be deleveled to level 5, and then the experience to gain levels should be multiplied by 100x. Enjoy taking 20 years to max level, you earned it.

The problem is with your definition of "reasonable". You want it tomorrow with minimal effort. Then you'll sit around complaining about lack of content.

sabresandiego_ESO

Snit wrote: »

It's no more 'unreasonable' than 3,600 CP's at 400k a pop

It will be interesting to watch player reactions when more realize that they'll probably never 'finish' their character, even if they play eight hours a night for a year. Personally, I like the idea of infinite advancement, of never being capped out. But many will hate hate hate it.

Sales of forum popcorn will increase.

The difference here is that you don't need 3600 CP to enjoy the game. There is nothing absolutely "critical" in the champion trees that you can't play the game without.

On the other hand, many stamina builds completely depend on "vigor" to be viable. This single skill is what makes stamina builds competitive (or even superior) to magicka builds in pvp. Without vigor, most stamina builds have no survivability in pvp. It is an absolutely critical skill, and next to impossible to unlock for new players or alts.

manny254

It is not reasonable. If you have more than one character it is absolutely absurd. No one is complaining about not reaching pvp rank 50. They are complaining that a skill that may be very useful to many builds requires what would feel unobtainable to a casual solo player.

It is not about minimal effort or wanting instant gratification. Nothing about this makes sense and I would love to see how many of the devs who arbitrarily set the requirements for skill have a character at alliance war rank 10.

NoRefunds

champion points are account shared, alliance rank should be aswell, if you fought for a year for your alliance you dont want to lose everything to make an alt

Weberda

NoRefunds wrote: »

champion points are account shared, alliance rank should be aswell

No. Each character is a individual story with unique experiences. In other words work for it, earn it.

sabresandiego_ESO

manny254 wrote: »

It is not reasonable. If you have more than one character it is absolutely absurd. No one is complaining about not reaching pvp rank 50. They are complaining that a skill that may be very useful to many builds requires what would feel unobtainable to a casual solo player.

It is not about minimal effort or wanting instant gratification. Nothing about this makes sense and I would love to see how many of the devs who arbitrarily set the requirements for skill have a character at alliance war rank 10.

Exactly Manny. My main is Rank 32 in Alliance War, if getting Vigor means getting to rank 24 on another character to unlock war rank 10 abilities, its essentially impossible and I will never make an alt.

Snit

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

On the other hand, many stamina builds completely depend on "vigor" to be viable. This single skill is what makes stamina builds competitive (or even superior) to magicka builds in pvp.

I've never gotten a stamina build to VR, so I'll have to take your word for the idea that stamina builds cannot compete in PvP without this new skill.

If that is the case, then it needs to be achievable in a fraction of the time.

reften

at what level does vigor unlock?

Recremen

I completely agree, the "grind" is harsh for these skills, and the fact that we're calling it a "grind" speaks volumes about the attitude you'd need to take in PvP to obtain them, just on one character, let alone on others.

You need a little under 8 million AP to get these abilities. If you are in a really good group, playing the map, trying to achieve objectives for your Alliance, etc., you aren't going to be getting 8 million anytime soon. Download an addon that lets you track AP gain and see for yourself. Watch the +5 +27 +89 come in and get disheartened. Stick around after you win that fight at a keep, which took an hour, and feel the rush of that +364 defense tick. Get some actual perspective.

The only way to gain AP quick enough (still taking many months per alt, mind you, at several hours a day, every single day) is to "farm" AP. For less-experienced or less-serious players this is not possible, because they are the ones being farmed. Farming happens when a good guild decides they want more AP, so they abandon the map objectives, take a resource, a bridge, Bleakers, or what have you, and just sit tight waiting for weaker players to come in and throw themselves under the oil pots. This is disheartening for more casual players because they have about zero hope of stopping it if it's used against them, and they have zero hope of taking parts of the map if it's their own faction doing the farming.

Along the same line of thinking, if only the big guilds are going to get these skills while more casual folk are left still trying to get Caltrops, how much more of a divide are we going to see between good and bad players? I'm all for rewarding good play, but I don't want to just bumrush less experienced fighters. It's more fun to have to be on my toes, just in case.

I can't believe that some folks around here are playing the "entitlement" card. Try thinking it through, consider the effect this will have on Cyro, how much more experienced people are going to "grind" and "farm", and how it lessens the fun had by players of all experience levels. If your perception is that everyone is just whiny and needy, then I don't think you've been reading people's positions with a critical mind.

Weberda

Recremen wrote: »

I completely agree, the "grind" is harsh for these skills, and the fact that we're calling it a "grind" speaks volumes about the attitude you'd need to take in PvP to obtain them, just on one character, let alone on others.

You need a little under 8 million AP to get these abilities. If you are in a really good group, playing the map, trying to achieve objectives for your Alliance, etc., you aren't going to be getting 8 million anytime soon. Download an addon that lets you track AP gain and see for yourself. Watch the +5 +27 +89 come in and get disheartened. Stick around after you win that fight at a keep, which took an hour, and feel the rush of that +364 defense tick. Get some actual perspective.

The only way to gain AP quick enough (still taking many months per alt, mind you, at several hours a day, every single day) is to "farm" AP. For less-experienced or less-serious players this is not possible, because they are the ones being farmed. Farming happens when a good guild decides they want more AP, so they abandon the map objectives, take a resource, a bridge, Bleakers, or what have you, and just sit tight waiting for weaker players to come in and throw themselves under the oil pots. This is disheartening for more casual players because they have about zero hope of stopping it if it's used against them, and they have zero hope of taking parts of the map if it's their own faction doing the farming.

Along the same line of thinking, if only the big guilds are going to get these skills while more casual folk are left still trying to get Caltrops, how much more of a divide are we going to see between good and bad players? I'm all for rewarding good play, but I don't want to just bumrush less experienced fighters. It's more fun to have to be on my toes, just in case.

I can't believe that some folks around here are playing the "entitlement" card. Try thinking it through, consider the effect this will have on Cyro, how much more experienced people are going to "grind" and "farm", and how it lessens the fun had by players of all experience levels. If your perception is that everyone is just whiny and needy, then I don't think you've been reading people's positions with a critical mind.

Well, I don't know about you but I'm not in Cyrodil to "grind" for skills. I'm there because I enjoy PVP. I make use of whatever tools the game affords me at the time and go on my merry way. If you're just there to grind then it isn't going to be fun and frankly that's the player's own fault.

TheBull

OP, not to people who PvP.

Recremen

Weberda wrote: »

Well, I don't know about you but I'm not in Cyrodil to "grind" for skills. I'm there because I enjoy PVP. I make use of whatever tools the game affords me at the time and go on my merry way. If you're just there to grind then it isn't going to be fun and frankly that's the player's own fault.

Yeah, my guild doesn't go out to Cyro to grind, we go out to win fights. We have on rare occasions farmed AP, but it's so boring to fight bads over and over again as they keep coming back to get murdered that we give up and go back to taking keeps. The question then becomes:

"Why encourage people to adopt unfun behaviors that harm the health of PvP just to get a skill that will open up more fun builds so they can go back to the real fight?"

Naivefanboi

oren74 wrote: »

I'm a casual gamer, have 1 VR14 character. A PvP mostly. And am at level 8.5. Figure probably another 3-4 months to get to level 10.

My undaunted level is stuck at 4 though, and I don't see that budging.

So..so what? Why do you have to be max level at everything? Is this because of the "everyone gets a trophy" generation? I dunno.

What will you do when you're level 10? My guess is, you'll be that much closer to leaving the game because there is nothing to build towards. Guessing Zos doesn't want that.

guess they shoulda told me not to buy the game at launch then since min/maxers have no valid opinions on play style.

Naivefanboi

Recremen wrote: »

I completely agree, the "grind" is harsh for these skills, and the fact that we're calling it a "grind" speaks volumes about the attitude you'd need to take in PvP to obtain them, just on one character, let alone on others.

You need a little under 8 million AP to get these abilities. If you are in a really good group, playing the map, trying to achieve objectives for your Alliance, etc., you aren't going to be getting 8 million anytime soon. Download an addon that lets you track AP gain and see for yourself. Watch the +5 +27 +89 come in and get disheartened. Stick around after you win that fight at a keep, which took an hour, and feel the rush of that +364 defense tick. Get some actual perspective.

The only way to gain AP quick enough (still taking many months per alt, mind you, at several hours a day, every single day) is to "farm" AP. For less-experienced or less-serious players this is not possible, because they are the ones being farmed. Farming happens when a good guild decides they want more AP, so they abandon the map objectives, take a resource, a bridge, Bleakers, or what have you, and just sit tight waiting for weaker players to come in and throw themselves under the oil pots. This is disheartening for more casual players because they have about zero hope of stopping it if it's used against them, and they have zero hope of taking parts of the map if it's their own faction doing the farming.

Along the same line of thinking, if only the big guilds are going to get these skills while more casual folk are left still trying to get Caltrops, how much more of a divide are we going to see between good and bad players? I'm all for rewarding good play, but I don't want to just bumrush less experienced fighters. It's more fun to have to be on my toes, just in case.

I can't believe that some folks around here are playing the "entitlement" card. Try thinking it through, consider the effect this will have on Cyro, how much more experienced people are going to "grind" and "farm", and how it lessens the fun had by players of all experience levels. If your perception is that everyone is just whiny and needy, then I don't think you've been reading people's positions with a critical mind.

whooo math and logic, no no no cant have that /-endsarcasim

Jahosefat

I think the amount of time it is going to take me to get the undaunted passives is ridiculous (I just want to PVP!). You have your barriers, we have ours. I'm glad they made these skills take AW rank 10, it might actually encourage some people to spend time in cyr.

yodased

@jahosefat undaunted level 9 can be gotten on a new toon in < 1month.

There is literally no way a person on a new toon will ever be able to get to alliance rank 10 in that time.

I understand PvP =/= PvE but that is a strawman argument that has been popping up from the people who are already in level 10 to begin with.

If you have been pvping since the beginning of the game, then sure you probably are there already or are close to getting there so it doesn't affect you.

That's great for you and your dedication should be rewarded, sure. The point is though its not apples vs apples when you compare the undaunted to pvp levels. You get undaunted through many things especially as you level up a new character.

The most 'serious' casual person will maximum get 30k ap a day and that is a LOT of ap for an average player.

8,000,000 points / 24 hours = around 33k in a 24hour period. That is 266 days to get to rank 10. MOST people don't play for 24 hours strait though so bring that to 8hours in a day? maybe, if thats all you do after work/eating/sleeping/pooping. Its closer to a full year of constant 8 hour pvp to get the skills. Really?


That is balanced in your eyes? I'm not saying it is or it isn't, but that is a ton of time for skills that really can help out certain builds in both pvp and pve.

technohic

This is something I would really love to have for my stamina Templar but I suppose it is a long way off so I am making due with my class healing stuff. Bright side is, I have enough things to spend stamina on I guess so having a heal on the seperate pool is nice. Down side is that so many abilities seem so highly affected by scaling off of stats that my heals are a bit weak.

I'm kind of ok with that, but then; my class has a bunch of healing options. Maybe other classes don't have that convenience.

Jahosefat

yodased wrote: »

@jahosefat undaunted level 9 can be gotten on a new toon in < 1month.

There is literally no way a person on a new toon will ever be able to get to alliance rank 10 in that time.

I understand PvP =/= PvE but that is a strawman argument that has been popping up from the people who are already in level 10 to begin with.

If you have been pvping since the beginning of the game, then sure you probably are there already or are close to getting there so it doesn't affect you.

That's great for you and your dedication should be rewarded, sure. The point is though its not apples vs apples when you compare the undaunted to pvp levels. You get undaunted through many things especially as you level up a new character.

The most 'serious' casual person will maximum get 30k ap a day and that is a LOT of ap for an average player. That is 266 days to get to rank 10. Thats about 27,000 hours of pvp chair time for those skills.

That is balanced in your eyes? I'm not saying it is or it isn't, but that is a ton of time for skills that really can help out certain builds in both pvp and pve.

PVPers have gotten very little rewards, no new content, slow xp gains, and have suffered through ~1 year of beta testing the cyr servers. I think they deserve something, and some new and *useful* skills open only to those who dedicated many months through the ups and downs of cyr is fitting. They also need a way to encourage people to PVP outside of the buffs which are probably going away sometime in the not-so-distant future. I think it is a fitting reward for the effort, and these skills are not things that are required to do well in PVE. They are very helpful in pvp, and offer an incentive to get up to rank 10. Before the only incentive was basically one passive that increased your ult gen (which was already high). PVPers need rewards and PVErs need incentives to go into cyr, I think it will help the game.

[Edit]: @yodased It would probably also help you to look into the d-tick mechanics and such. You can get 60k AP/hr by just sitting at the right keep not doing anything (even more!). A dedicated day with good fighting can easily be 150K AP + if you are doing the right things (and that is solo).

yodased

Well, if the skills are not needed to do well in PvE. (which they MAY not be, but will open up a lot of new builds), then why would a person who doesn't PVP ever bother with that much time in PVP?

Its a conundrum because the people who may have wanted to 'try' to get to that skill and get into pvp are more than likely to give up way before they get there.

I don't think this is going to make any PvE centric people PvP more to get to the level.

This will keep people who pvp sometimes and enjoy it pvping a lot more sure, but I really don't think it will bring more for the long term grind

yodased

Jahosefat wrote: »

[Edit]: @yodased It would probably also help you to look into the d-tick mechanics and such. You can get 60k AP/hr by just sitting at the right keep not doing anything (even more!). A dedicated day with good fighting can easily be 150K AP + if you are doing the right things (and that is solo).

150k AP per day doing nothing? Are you a Nigerian prince? I have sat at keeps doing nothing for days and never got 150k AP.

Why doesn't everyone have 4,500,000 AP at the end of the campaign? I mean I'm on Haderus so that may be why, but the most I have EVER seen on there has been < 1,000,000 and thats within 7 days or about 142,000 per 24 hour period.