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PVE, PVP and Sorcerers
meaglar
✭✭
Reading posts since beginning of PTS, I conclude that it is not that hard to explaine/understand these simple facts:
- PVE is one part of the game, which does not include PVP, and for a remarkable amout of players, PVE takes the most of the time in the game.
- Unfortunately it is obvious that ideally no one will prefer to have a sorcerer in their PVE group instead of any other class, because sorcerer has no additional benefits. They are not the best healers, not the best tanks, nor the best damage dealers (in fact the worst ones). You can always prefeer someone who can put more damage. The reason you see sorcerers in PVE groups is juct because they are friends, or the group needs men to reach needed player number. Before 1.6 at least we used to have negate, which was remarkable/well needed in PVE content. Still funny though that we were needed for 1 single spell
The group comprimises on DPS for 1 spell...
- I am a magicka sorcerer. I never claim that I am a good player, but I am not a bad one as well. So far in PTS I have managed 7000-7500 long term DPS without pets. (even this is not in the situations, where you should run, roll, block here and there because of many ads)
- Considering usage of pets to have higher DPS means, you lack of mobility and flexibity in PVE, yet you can barely reach to standart DPS of other classes. Moreover, that also means you need to adapt your skill morphs for pets, resulting lesser effeciency in PVP (well if you say sorcerers are over the level in PVP, that will/should definetely effect this comment)
- In regard to previous item, who else needs to choose either PVP or PVE to build their char? (I am talking about permanent changes, like skill morphs, not about sets or skills in the bar which you can always play with)
- another funny fact, think about the CS, which is just nerfed: This skill is available for every single class, yet it was/is only (or mainly) being used by sorcerers... Thinking of that; this means we do not have anything better than CS for DPS purposes, whereas other classes do not need CS as they have better things. Isn't that funny, that sorcerers's best choise is a global skill, which is not being chosen by the rest of the classes?
- Again in regard of previous item: while it is obvious sorcerers have the lowest dps, and CS was our main DPS skill, how come ZoS decided to nerf it? Some will say it is not a nerf as they increased the critical percentage bonus of the sets...
Let's calculate:
Say you cast CS 100 times and normal damage of CS is 100 per cast...
Say you had 30% spell crit before 1.6.2; means (70x100) + (30x150) = 11500 dmg for 100 times casting of CS.
Say after 1.6.2 you got 10% dmg nerf on CS and 45% spell crit (as some part of spell crit is coming somewhere else than set); means (55x90) + (45x135) = 11025 dmg for 100 times casting of CS
I believe this example calculation is not too far away from reality.
In conlusion, yes all the classes have complains, but they also have their own "best on this" points... But the reason of complains of sorcerers is basically, we are not the best on any specific point, and we are obliged to use skills/stuff not dedicated to our class, and for being competative we are stucked with certain builds.
PS: if sorcerers really need to be remachined and nerfed on PVP (which I have no experience in PTS so far), then go ahead and do it as well... but do not forget to fix our long therm problem in PVE first
Thanks for reading all my junk...
Cheers.
- PVE is one part of the game, which does not include PVP, and for a remarkable amout of players, PVE takes the most of the time in the game.
- Unfortunately it is obvious that ideally no one will prefer to have a sorcerer in their PVE group instead of any other class, because sorcerer has no additional benefits. They are not the best healers, not the best tanks, nor the best damage dealers (in fact the worst ones). You can always prefeer someone who can put more damage. The reason you see sorcerers in PVE groups is juct because they are friends, or the group needs men to reach needed player number. Before 1.6 at least we used to have negate, which was remarkable/well needed in PVE content. Still funny though that we were needed for 1 single spell
The group comprimises on DPS for 1 spell...- I am a magicka sorcerer. I never claim that I am a good player, but I am not a bad one as well. So far in PTS I have managed 7000-7500 long term DPS without pets. (even this is not in the situations, where you should run, roll, block here and there because of many ads)
- Considering usage of pets to have higher DPS means, you lack of mobility and flexibity in PVE, yet you can barely reach to standart DPS of other classes. Moreover, that also means you need to adapt your skill morphs for pets, resulting lesser effeciency in PVP (well if you say sorcerers are over the level in PVP, that will/should definetely effect this comment)
- In regard to previous item, who else needs to choose either PVP or PVE to build their char? (I am talking about permanent changes, like skill morphs, not about sets or skills in the bar which you can always play with)
- another funny fact, think about the CS, which is just nerfed: This skill is available for every single class, yet it was/is only (or mainly) being used by sorcerers... Thinking of that; this means we do not have anything better than CS for DPS purposes, whereas other classes do not need CS as they have better things. Isn't that funny, that sorcerers's best choise is a global skill, which is not being chosen by the rest of the classes?
- Again in regard of previous item: while it is obvious sorcerers have the lowest dps, and CS was our main DPS skill, how come ZoS decided to nerf it? Some will say it is not a nerf as they increased the critical percentage bonus of the sets...
Let's calculate:
Say you cast CS 100 times and normal damage of CS is 100 per cast...
Say you had 30% spell crit before 1.6.2; means (70x100) + (30x150) = 11500 dmg for 100 times casting of CS.
Say after 1.6.2 you got 10% dmg nerf on CS and 45% spell crit (as some part of spell crit is coming somewhere else than set); means (55x90) + (45x135) = 11025 dmg for 100 times casting of CS
I believe this example calculation is not too far away from reality.
In conlusion, yes all the classes have complains, but they also have their own "best on this" points... But the reason of complains of sorcerers is basically, we are not the best on any specific point, and we are obliged to use skills/stuff not dedicated to our class, and for being competative we are stucked with certain builds.
PS: if sorcerers really need to be remachined and nerfed on PVP (which I have no experience in PTS so far), then go ahead and do it as well... but do not forget to fix our long therm problem in PVE first
Thanks for reading all my junk...
Cheers.
6
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angelyn✭✭✭✭Your point about crushing shock gives something to think about. Mainly Sorcs use it because they have nothing else and no one else uses it because they have better skills in their own class.And as you say it isn't just 10% when you add other changes as well. I have the feeling that many changes to sorcs are implemented due to PVP. I'll quote what I said in this thread. As you can see I only use 2-3 class skills. All of them have been nerfed and half the skills I used to slot have been nerfed:Fellow PVE toggle mancer here. I've fed back numerous times about how sorc feel in PTS..to be honest,I didn't think that they could get worse in PVE than they were on live. Surprise!
A few people said sorcs were qq'ing over nothing and those complaining are just crap players.I may not be an elite player,but when people from Hodor are saying sorcerers are not viable in PVE what hope do I have ?
Crit surge nerfed, bound armour nerfed,negate nerfed,crushing shock nerfed,magelight nerfed,light armour nerfed into oblivion. Thats HALF the skills my sorc used on their bar and THE ONLY class skills I had on my bar.Combined with all the other stat scaling...meh.
I get the feeling that ZOS have an idea of what skills they want sorcerers to use, and are now nerfing in anything else that may be viable,so we have no choice but to use pets. I'm not even sure that pets are a viable option in PVE..Honestly I can't see how I'm supposed to stay alive and DPS loads of trash mobs,quickly and efficiently in dungeons(as the role demands) with pets ,no armour and no AOE because toggles have taken up all skills on my bar.A few very skilled players might find it possible,however there shouldn't only be one super-hard-to-master build for an entire class.Let alone try to compete with other classes and try being a good tank or healer. It's just as well I enjoy dps(even if I'm at the bottom of the damage meter) because its rare if anyone wants sorc healers/tanks in groups.
Even the most patient and tolerant people get frustrated when they aren't listened to.Perhaps my build might be better when I get to 200 champion points.However it's a sh#t class indeed that only becomes PVE viable once you have levelled 1-50, then VR1-14, and then beyond into CP. Where is the incentive and enjoyment in levelling a sorcerer? Actually how would anyone level one if they are so bad no groups want them? (Excluding pvp).
I have a sneaking suspicion that devs test any balance changes only in PVP or on a single PVE target. Hence why they said in ESO live that pet build was giving massive DPS but "not king of DPS", and why no one considered how sorc dps is supposed to AOE trash mobs with no armour,no AOE skill as no space on bar due to toggles, and no block casting as our stamina drains to 0 in like a few seconds when blocking.
This would also explain why Paul Sage/Chris Strasz said in the recent Q&A that basically some people will always complain, when the subject of sorcerers was raised.Perhaps he's only thinking of how amazing sorcs are in PVP. Also I've yet to hear a dev say that sorc is their favourite class,when I've heard numerous times how much dk is fav class. (I'm not shouting for nerf of other classes). Maybe they just need to roll a sorcerer and see if they can dps an ENTIRE dungeon/trial successfully, with our only viable build-the toggle mancer,that relies on a set that only goes up to VR12,has sturdy on each piece and has just taken a nerf (Necropotence).
If my opinion doesn't count for much then look here or this thread , both have legitimate feedback from players better than me, regarding either sorcerer specifically or for instance how light armour/stamina drain(both implemented due to PVP) is affecting PVE etc.
As I've said elsewhere,I'm aware of the problems in PVP. There must be a way to address PVP without hobbling my entire class in PVE.
EDIT: Here is what Paul Sage/Chris Strasz said in this Q&A session at 49:14 basically ZOS inferring that either sorcs complaining are crap players or that people will always complain that their class is underpowered. Note that when they talk about sorcs they only seem to give PVP examples,which supports my theory that they mainly only test balance changes in PVP or perhaps on single target PVE.
Question:"With the non stop thread on the forums regarding sorcs are now being underpowered, are there any plans to buff up the class?I know that you touched on surge a bit ago but is there any other aspect of the sorcerer you can touch on?"
Answer: "Sure, so, um, ok. How to say this ah as politicaly as possible?Ah I think that there are always going to be people who say x class is underpowered, and they will have video proof showing you why x,y class is underpowered,um and then you are gonna have somebody else who comes in and says, ""Now watch me play"",now,ah, so we have been watching this very carefully. I've seen some great videos,ah showing a guy doing some 1 vs 1 duelling on a sorc and nobody can touch him, and then I have definitely seen the complaints where people say ""yes, but that has to be the pet build"", and then some other people saying, ""no, it doesn't"" and then they have video proof.
And then I've seen good video proof of other things, so I think what we're doing and the philosophy we're taking, is we're taking this ability by ability, and really looking at ahh, what they have from ability by ability, and then after we do that, then we start to look at some of the cohesive builds and see what we have,um I certainly know that each class,um or if you're playing a class, um each time, you'll think that your class tends to be underpowered, and I'm sorry I know that sounds a bit insulting, I don't mean it to be, um, I know there's some good analysis out there and I mean that sincerely, I really do, I know there's good analysis out there, but there's" Technical difficulties and sound cuts out. Continued answer "And that's all I have to say about that"..Edited by angelyn on 11 February 2015 16:080 -
RoyJade✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, all the sorcerers' nerf come from pvp. No love for pve, seem that pve is not a part of the game.
Yes, the pvp has been unbalanced since the release, yes, it need some big balance, but actually sorcerers are the worst class everywhere in pve… because the only few skill they can use were "too powerfull" in pvp.
Next nerf is probably the only survival capacity of a sorc : his magic shield. After that, a sorcerer in pvp will not be able to kill more than three trash mobs at the same time, and will die with a few shoot, so it will be useless as a tank or a healer.2 -
meaglar✭✭Your point about crushing shock gives something to think about. Mainly Sorcs use it because they have nothing else and no one else uses it because they have better skills in their own class.And as you say it isn't just 10% when you add other changes as well. I have the feeling that many changes to sorcs are implemented due to PVP. I'll quote what I said in this thread. As you can see I only use 2-3 class skills. All of them have been nerfed and half the skills I used to slot have been nerfed:
I am glad to see I am not the only one feeling this main subject instead of talking about specific skills or conditions.
Edited by meaglar on 11 February 2015 13:061 -
kkampaseb17_ESO✭✭✭a sorcerer in pvp will not be able to kill more than three trash mobs at the same time, and will die with a few shoot, so it will be useless as a tank or a healer.
You obviously mean PvE and not PvP. Also, there is an interesting post about the Sorc Hardened Ward on a CP3600 profile. Even though I do not agree with the poster, it is interesting to watch these values before saying some things.0 -
RoyJade✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oh yes, it's a typo ^^'
Thanks for correcting me.
Actually, I can survive with hardened ward against a large amount of monsters (even two pack in Raidelorn if I only refresh my shield), but if we follow the nerf-for-pvp path ZOF have followed these time, Ward should be severely nerfed in 1.6.3...1 -
kkampaseb17_ESO✭✭✭Unless they just allow critical hits to register as values on the shield and then you have both sides content since shields will not be working like impenetrable 1.5 (yes they are unaffected by armor reduction values) and NPCs do not crit. Both sides happy.
Ahh and while they are at it they should allow DoTs and procs on shields. It is absurd that I cannot proc Evil Hunter or Ravager just because there is a shield.,...I am sure a NB will have a list of things not working for him due to this.Edited by kkampaseb17_ESO on 11 February 2015 13:250 -
RoyJade✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree, allow all capacities to proc in shield (at least all but dot, because burning or poisoning a magic shield seem impossible) is a acceptable nerf in my opinion.0 -
meaglar✭✭So... we can find stuff to nerf sorcerers in PVP, but nothing to improve them in PVE so far
Shield usage in PVE will give us survivability, not more than any other class... then again, where is the DPS?0 -
angelyn✭✭✭✭
I'm excited that there is some hope once I have however many champion points but I'll just quote from my original postkkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »a sorcerer in pvp will not be able to kill more than three trash mobs at the same time, and will die with a few shoot, so it will be useless as a tank or a healer.
You obviously mean PvE and not PvP. Also, there is an interesting post about the Sorc Hardened Ward on a CP3600 profile. Even though I do not agree with the poster, it is interesting to watch these values before saying some things.Perhaps my build might be better when I get to 200 champion points.However it's a sh#t class indeed that only becomes PVE viable once you have levelled 1-50, then VR1-14, and then beyond into CP. Where is the incentive and enjoyment in levelling a sorcerer? Actually how would anyone level one if they are so bad no groups want them? (Excluding pvp).
Yes, I'm expecting a shield nerf that will affect PVE too due to PVP issues.Oh yes, it's a typo ^^'
Thanks for correcting me.
Actually, I can survive with hardened ward against a large amount of monsters (even two pack in Raidelorn if I only refresh my shield), but if we follow the nerf-for-pvp path ZOF have followed these time, Ward should be severely nerfed in 1.6.3...
Also I've edited my original post to include exactly what was said in the recent Q&A session. My personal opinion is that they are saying "sorcs who complain are either crap players or will always complain that their class is underpowered."Edited by angelyn on 11 February 2015 13:440 -
meaglar✭✭I do not believe, my first post is just a meaningless complaint. Rather it comes from months of playing/reading/observations.
If that is how ZoS feeling about sorcerers requests/comments that is just a pitty.
To remind, this game is not on PVP only... Never was... ZoS has to think about both sides of this game. And our (at least my) demand is having a point in wich I can say "I am good at" + a well balanced PVP, no matter if it needs to nerf my class (in proper ways).1 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The pvp crying is all fake anyways.
God mode in pvp is (on live) and still will be (on pts and after they have tricked ZOS) the DK-Vamp build.
No other class can wade into 20 people, survive and also kill many.
DK's and their defensive skills plus vamp are easy mode win versus many pvp builds. By many I don't mean variety of builds, I mean many people AT ONCE.
It's not they are tanky... it's they are tanky and have superior dps in pvp.
It's like ZOS doesn't pvp and doesn't understand pvp and listens to people that in game refer to the DK as "the master class".
Sure a decent pvp sorc is hard to kill. Managed properly they can always get away, but they can't wade into 20 people and dance and leave a trail of corpses in their wake. DK can and will be able to after the great pts pvp charade that ZOS has fallen for.2 -
meaglar✭✭Cannot comment on that as I said I have no experience in PTS PVP.
All I wanna show is the obvious fact that this game has parts more than PVP, and where sorcerers stand in those parts...0 -
sput4ueb17_ESO✭✭✭I am still waiting for 1 comment from a ZOS person who plays a Sorc..... I doubt that there is 1.
Also I have to add that nerfing is not the way to go in this game .
Trying to improve or change the classes is. And seriously Sorcerer needs badly changes or else he will end up in filling bank space with his empty inventory slots0 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Screw it, just delete the class for good and offer us free class change at this point maybe>.>0