What sort of -ism chased away Tacos?

HeroOfEvbof · February 2015

Why did so many people hate the word Tacos? Dont give me the baloney immersion stuff. I never saw an outcry over Goulash (there are no languages in Elder Scrolls equivalent to the Magyar) or Jerky (there are no languages in Elder Scrolls equivalent to Quecha) or Haggis (no Scottish language in Elder Scrolls either). The only culture/language in Elder Scrolls at all similar to French was Breton,
and yet the Pact and Dominion had Omelets, Quiche and Fondue and the Dominion had Etoufee and the Pact had Baguette.
I look at the outcry over Taco and the hue and cry that it breaks immersion as coming from a place of prejudice. I don't know the nature of that prejudice but somehow the word Taco made people angry in a way that Goulash and Ouzo didn't.

agabahmeatshieldb14_ESO · February 2015

You're right, it's an interesting point.

The high fantasy setting seems to be inseparable in most people's minds from Europe and European themes, and tacos are something that most Americans associate with, well, the Americas--South, Central, or the modern-day U.S. I'd guess that's what most people found discordant about tacos in Tamriel. So if I had to choose an -ism, it'd be something like "Euro-centrism in the high fantasy setting" which doesn't trip off the tongue.

And where do we draw the line on which flatbreads are acceptable in the Elder Scrolls? Pita, naan, matzo, farl, frybread, johnnycake... which is acceptable and which isn't?

I'm sure there's an Anthropology paper in all this.

LMar · February 2015

I supported the no non-lore-foods movement but that includes all foods which could have a name based on ES lore. Why remove mazte, flin, moon sugar, sweetrolls and replace them with something else?

I agree that other recipes such as ouzo and etoufee might also sounds weird and I support finding more a appropriate name.

I think the problem was that for areas that we are familiar with such as morrowind and skyrim etc we already have an idea of what their foods are like. But introducing tacos out of nowhere just seems silly when you could have something more appropriate.

In addition some of the prementioned foods such as fondue, quiche, omellete, jerky are just ways of preparing food, instead of a very specific food such as tacos.

Its the idea of loaded terms. Tacos (and ouzo and possibly etoufee ) come with a predetermined culture that brings each user's opinion to the fore, while generic terms such as pasty and fondue bring a more neutral image.

Saying that your post is a rather intriguing one and food-for-thought (see what I did there? :P)

Also we support NOT removing lore foods such as moon sugar and sweetrolls but I read somewhere that they are not removing those. Please keep lore foods!!!

timidobserver · February 2015

Roleplayers and immersion players chased it away. I actually preferred something that actually sounds edible like a Taco over a pasty.

HeroOfEvbof · February 2015

The problem I have with the "immersion" players chasing away Taco is that they never chased anything else away. There was no outrage over foods that clearly came from other cultures that had no parallel in Elder Scrolls lore.
The word Taco inflamed too many people.
There were a few posters that didnt like Risotto either but considering how close Imperial names are to Latin, Risotto isnt too bad a word.
I would have loved more lore friendly recipe names, for sure.
But the new recipes include chili, borscht and goulash. they include tons of words much closer to italian/french including pilaf, carpaccio, poutine, chiopinno, ragu, hor d'oevre. I know the place names of High Rock and both Colovia and Nibenay and the placenames of those regions simply arent hardcore italian/french in nature. To me all these hardcore italian/french foods are just as immersion breaking as Goulash or Borscht.
But there wasnt so many one sentence outrage posts about Borscht or Goulash. There wasnt so many one sentence oputrage posts about Pilaf or Chioppino or Fricassee.
Instead there were all these one sentence outrage posts about Taco. And its those outrage posts that got ZoS to take action.
For shame.

newtinmpls · February 2015

I'll go on record as objecting to the use of Borscht, as it's a food associated with a specific culture's Easter - a religious holiday - and thus could be seen as religious mockery (yes, I'm Polish).

Which is technically true, but really I don't care; that is not the real issue.

I don't like 'taco' (though I admit I never gave feedback on it) because it's too familiar, too specific to me. I'm from Minnesota, so "hotdish" would get that same reaction. Stuff I don't eat often or am not familiar with would get less of a negative reaction (in my case you could toss goulash, risotto and pilaf in that pile).

I would get happy to see any sort of food taken from previous ES lore/games; that's where I know "sweetroll" from. Although I massively object to moon sugar as a food, it should be an entheogen.

HeroOfEvbof · February 2015

I worked with a young man of Russian ethnicity that was born in Russia but raised here in the US. He loved Borscht even when it wasn't Easter, but he ate the variation made with meat stock. When we worked in Brooklyn we would take a trip down to the neighborhood just north of Coney Island where he got stuff that he had to order in Russian. It was fun.
Lore is cool, but since Bethesda has never been consistent in modeling Tamriel languages with RL languages then why should food?
All of the posters to this thread have wrote multiple sentence paragraphs. Many of the lore posters in previous threads lay out multiple paragraphs. But those aren't the posts that got ZoS to react. It was the simple anti-Taco posts that did.
BTW all you Taco haters- pasty isn't Anglo-Saxon either. It comes to us from Norman French. Do I need to explain the Beef/Pork/Mutton vs Cow/Pig/Sheep dichotomy inherent in English?

baratron · February 2015

HeroOfEvbof wrote: »

The problem I have with the "immersion" players chasing away Taco is that they never chased anything else away. There was no outrage over foods that clearly came from other cultures that had no parallel in Elder Scrolls lore.
...
But the new recipes include chili, borscht and goulash. they include tons of words much closer to italian/french including pilaf, carpaccio, poutine, chiopinno, ragu, hor d'oevre. I know the place names of High Rock and both Colovia and Nibenay and the placenames of those regions simply arent hardcore italian/french in nature. To me all these hardcore italian/french foods are just as immersion breaking as Goulash or Borscht.

To be fair, "borscht", "carpaccio", "chiopinno" (which I'm not even sure how to pronounce!) and especially "poutine" all bother me something terrible. In fact, for me personally, "poutine" is worse than "taco", since it is specifically linked with Quebec, a region of the real world which has no Tamrielic equivalent. If we hadn't already visited Skyrim in Elder Scrolls V, it could be branded as a great Nord food considering its high levels of carbohydrate and fat, essential for keeping warm in the snow. But it would probably need a new name.

At least "taco" might be acceptable as an Argonian food considering that Black March seems to be based on ancient Central American cultures.

But I think the real outcry over "taco" was that it's seen as a junk food by much of the world. Many parts of the world have a certain famous taco chain and yet no real Mexican cuisine or culture to speak of. Proper Mexican food is great, loads of beans and grains; whereas food from that taco chain is cheap meat and lettuce covered in runny American cheese. If you've only encountered the fast food version of tacos, it would seem like introducing "burger" to Tamriel - too modern-sounding.

xMovingTarget · February 2015

I like Tacos *OMNOMNOMNOMNOM*

Now i want some =(

HeroOfEvbof · February 2015

I agree with the assessment that the outrage over Taco is likely over its association with a certain inexpensive fast food chain that is open "late night". I never eat there but i try as often as possible to have high end Tacos several times a year. I admit I prefer Burritos and eat them more often but sometimes the simplicity of a Taco is better.
I love Tacos and feel the outrage was very shameful.

Rosveen · February 2015

newtinmpls wrote: »

I'll go on record as objecting to the use of Borscht, as it's a food associated with a specific culture's Easter - a religious holiday - and thus could be seen as religious mockery (yes, I'm Polish).

You've gotta be kidding me. I don't see a trace of religious mockery here and I'm a Pole from a Catholic family who eats borscht pretty much only for Christmas (not Easter. Easter has żurek - called white borscht here, but it isn't made from beets). It's just a soup, not a religious symbol.

Grunim · February 2015

OK, while popping into PTS today I noticed how sake recipes are still in the game, even though today's patch notes said they would be converted to mazte. Yes, I did a /bug report about it in game.

There are so many "ethnic" foods still left in game. For example, a schnitzel recipe jumped out at me. As an American, I decided to google schnitzel and Wikipedia told me that Americans do eat forms of schnitzel, we just call them names like chicken fingers or chicken fried steak. Things like piccata and cordon bleu are also examples of schnitzel.

But yeah, I agree with others that since we have taco fast food restaurants that's why it bothered some folks.

So what's the deal with sake then? Is it because it's normally associated with a single country?

newtinmpls · February 2015

I'll go on record as objecting to the use of Borscht, as it's a food associated with a specific culture's Easter - a religious holiday - and thus could be seen as religious mockery (yes, I'm Polish).

Rosveen wrote: »

You've gotta be kidding me. I don't see a trace of religious mockery here and I'm a Pole from a Catholic family

Yes I was kidding - I thought I made that clear (this is like the first time ... ever I have been even indirectly accused of being too subtle).

Anyway, I think that too things; familiarity and association with something negative or poor quality are things that folks are ending up objecting to. In drafting this post, I mentioned to my husband that being from Minnesota I would not want anything to be called "hotdish".

Then he pointed out that "Plump Rodent Toes Hotdish" might be 'different' enough. Eewww.... he could be right.

But "Cream of mushroom tater-tot hotdish with crispy onion topping" is RIGHT OUT!

ashlee17 · February 2015

First the deer in cyrodil, now tacos...

Well at least we no longer have to contend with those villainous and game breaking tacos anymore. What a relief....

R.I.P tacos

LMar · February 2015

Based on the feedback on this thread let's all stand behind changing all food names back to the lore. No more specific culture foods, replace them with plumb rodent toes equivalents (or something along those lines!) We need kwama dishes, nix hound roasts, netch puddings or jellies). Cyrodiil has more familiar names with sheep and cows around. I would even venture into insect dishes for elf cultures although I am not sure if that would hurt the insect farmers' emotions.
And the same for drinks. Pity that all Bosmer drinks were annihilated and I realise they did it because now meat dishes only do one thing but still.. poor Bosmer..

HeroOfEvbof · February 2015

lol - the Bosmer were screwed before anyways. Aged Meat and Dusk Beetles were cool but they were brewed/fermented/distilled with either Brown Malt, Wine Grapes or Corn Mash. Oops - looks like tons and tons of slash-and-burn was needed for all those drink ingredients. Too bad only a handful of niche builds needed drinks.

Phinix1 · February 2015

No politics allowed. Saying the word taco automatically makes you a racist.

HeroOfEvbof · February 2015

when i go out for Tacos, this is what I am looking for:

I am looking for three of them and no sides. I associate sides with Burittos.
I am definitely looking for Asada and not ground beef, although if pulled pork is available I am all over that.
And yet this wonderful food concept just got nerfed.

themizario · February 2015

I think there should be a chalupa or encherito.

I sometimes think we should have pizza. I mean the ninja turtles ate pizza, that speaks volumes.

LtCrunch · February 2015

ashlee17 wrote: »

The real outrage is that zos makes changing the name of an imaginary food a priority over real in game issues.

First the deer in cyrodil, now the tacos...

Maybe if I call the lack of guild tools in this game "tarcoesque" we might be able to hope for some sort of response.

Scary to think that #tacogate got such a swift response while other more pressing problems go unaddressed.

Well at least we no longer have to contend with those villainous and game breaking tacos anymore. What a relief....

Changing a few keywords is much, much easier than fixing Cyrodiil lag or damage scaling bugs. That's like comparing building a shed in your backyard with building a skyscraper in the middle of NYC. One takes much more time, effort and thought than the other.

BoloBoffin · February 2015

A taco is a flatbread folded over meat. This is just a silly thing to fix.

Why don't we get rid of Earth accents in the game as well? Why would anyone in Tamriel have Scandinavian or Spanish or English accents at all? Don't play these silly cosmetic games, Zenimax.

Kragorn · February 2015

BoloBoffin wrote: »

A taco is a flatbread folded over meat. This is just a silly thing to fix.

Why don't we get rid of Earth accents in the game as well? Why would anyone in Tamriel have Scandinavian or Spanish or English accents at all? Don't play these silly cosmetic games, Zenimax.

Yeah, well all know the residents of Tamriel speak with an American drawl. LOL

So, either you want to do away with voice-acting or, what do you suggest? Dalek voices?

HeroOfEvbof · February 2015

The question is which voice-acting accent would cause the forums to explode with one sentence outrage posts, that would be changed with a hotfix.

McDoogs · February 2015

Tacoism

Rosveen · February 2015

LMar wrote: »

Based on the feedback on this thread let's all stand behind changing all food names back to the lore. No more specific culture foods, replace them with plumb rodent toes equivalents (or something along those lines!) We need kwama dishes, nix hound roasts, netch puddings or jellies). Cyrodiil has more familiar names with sheep and cows around. I would even venture into insect dishes for elf cultures although I am not sure if that would hurt the insect farmers' emotions.
And the same for drinks. Pity that all Bosmer drinks were annihilated and I realise they did it because now meat dishes only do one thing but still.. poor Bosmer..

I am all for lore-friendly, Tamriel-specific names, but it is quite difficult to do, especially when you have a multicultural playerbase. There are no food names without cultural connotations, only varying degrees of familiarity. We tend to accept Western European culture as a fantasy standard, but it doesn't make it truly neutral. You say "netch pudding", the very first sentence of the Wikipedia page for pudding in my language describes it as a typically English dish. Someone mentioned a schnitzel, which is a very simple dish known in many cuisines - but under many different names, so which one do you choose? Schnitzel itself sounds decidedly German. Tacos are the same, anyone can wrap a flatbread around a meat filling. To be honest, I'm more okay with tacos than all these French names - at least I know what tacos are, the others do a really great job of motivating me to use Google and expand my vocabulary.

I think removing tacos was a superficial move not addressing the core issue with new Provisioning - which is what the dish is made of, not how it's made. In other words, what kind of meat filling did you wrap that tortilla around? After going through the Masterlist, I have to admit the recipe names aren't as bad as they seemed at fist. I'm definitely going to stuff my face with bananas in moon sugar syrup.

However, some glaring omissions remain - a whole separate category for teas and no canis root tea? Master Neloth would be disappointed, ZOS.

BoloBoffin · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

BoloBoffin wrote: »

A taco is a flatbread folded over meat. This is just a silly thing to fix.

Why don't we get rid of Earth accents in the game as well? Why would anyone in Tamriel have Scandinavian or Spanish or English accents at all? Don't play these silly cosmetic games, Zenimax.

Yeah, well all know the residents of Tamriel speak with an American drawl. LOL

So, either you want to do away with voice-acting or, what do you suggest? Dalek voices?

Zenimax should go to the trouble of developing all new accents for these characters. It breaks immersion for me to hear cats talking English with Spanish accents. What are they spending our money on?

Nestor · February 2015

Pasties make more sense. Its made to be a portable food. It is a filling encased in dough that you can put in your pocket or backpack. You can't carry a taco into combat, all the filling would fall out. Tacos are meant to be eaten now, pasties are meant to be eaten when your hungry, which can be now or later.

HeroOfEvbof · February 2015

Admittedly a Pasty is more portable than a Taco, but I wonder what Venison Fricassee will look like in my backpack four days after making? Hell, I sometimes make enough of a stack of food to last 100 Tamriel days.

Recremen · February 2015

HeroOfEvbof wrote: »

Why did so many people hate the word Tacos? Dont give me the baloney immersion stuff. I never saw an outcry over Goulash (there are no languages in Elder Scrolls equivalent to the Magyar) or Jerky (there are no languages in Elder Scrolls equivalent to Quecha) or Haggis (no Scottish language in Elder Scrolls either). The only culture/language in Elder Scrolls at all similar to French was Breton,
and yet the Pact and Dominion had Omelets, Quiche and Fondue and the Dominion had Etoufee and the Pact had Baguette.
I look at the outcry over Taco and the hue and cry that it breaks immersion as coming from a place of prejudice. I don't know the nature of that prejudice but somehow the word Taco made people angry in a way that Goulash and Ouzo didn't.

Dude, right?? Tacos have been around for thooousands of years, but to many westerners it's just not European enough to be worthy of inclusion in fantasy. It's probably one of those "comoditization of a culture" things, where it becomes a hat you can try on, and having it legitimized as its own culture, with all the associated agency, weirds people out.

I was telling a guild friend about the provisioning changes, and talked about how they added tacos, and at first he was like "OMG tacos no TRU fantasy whaaaaai" but then I asked him why those were bad but "soup" and "salad" were okay and he was like "... Oh." Sometimes you just need to explain something in the right way, though I don't think Zen is looking to take on that responsibility. So now we have pasties. :-|

LMar · February 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

However, some glaring omissions remain - a whole separate category for teas and no canis root tea? Master Neloth would be disappointed, ZOS.

Hah!!! I said the same thing about canis tea!!!! What is my steward going to fetch me now?!

Hmm ok I suppose instead of removing tacos, they could have gone along the lines of roast nix hound tacos? Or rat tacos? I think pasties is a good substitude though. I can carry my rat pasty around but tacos might ruin my new clothing!

Shadesofkin · February 2015

Because if I wanted Tacos in my game I'd play Wildstar.

But no, seriously, I didn't care. I did originally figure it was a placeholder name though.