Dueling feedback in Cyrodiil

trimsic_ESO

After 3 hours of dueling in Cyrodiil, in short:
- Radiance is way too powerful
- Magicka builds are 20 to 30% more powerful than stamina builds
- Templar and sorc are above the other classes

It's sad to see that stamina builds are still not on par with magicka builds. This is a situation that lasts since launch (10 months ago), and is still not fixed in this 1.6 build, which is supposed to balance the combat system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ can you please pass this information to the combat system and skill team, so they can see what's wrong and try to find a solution to finally fix the stamina builds and make them as powerful as the magicka builds. One of the main issue is that the melee weapon damage is really too low (dual wield for instance).

My hot bars:
- One hand and a shield: pierce armor, heroic slash (or reverberating bash), green dragon blood, shielded assault, absorb magic - flawless dawnbreaker or corrosive armor
- Dual wield: rending slashes, unstable flame, igneous shield, flying blade, burning breath - flawless dawnbreaker

chongguang

Sors are better than DK and NB ? Are you sure about this , i am now seeing may crys here about the weakness of sors.

Then lets make it simple, according to your 1 on 1 experience what kind of class rank will you make then ?

trimsic_ESO

@chongguang‌
Templar > sorcerer (pet build) > DK > NB

Maybe Sorcs with a pet build are above.
Sorcs, without a pet build, can be managed. However, Bolt Escape is really annoying (spam) and overload is too powerfull.

NoRefunds

The reason why magika builds are stronger is that its easy to never run out of magika(that means infinite shields/heals/bolt escape/etc), while its almost impossible to do the same with stamina, they need to reduce the cost of roll dodge and break free and make it easier to increase stamina regen,because there are no good sets that give stamina regen while with warlock/seducer you can get way too much mag regen, and since they nerfed way too hard regen on jewelry, sets are the only way to go.

Derra

The Problem stamina builds have atm when compared to magica is that there is no mundus that offers stamina regeneration.
To further complicate the resource issues it is far easier to get sets with magica regeneration and a decent 5p bonus than it is to find the same for stamina builds.
I still don´t think stamina builds are that far behind magica ones. They are simply less explored (I´ve fought a really good 2h sorc from NA for example).

I do believe the gaps between classes have increased though. Magica melee DKs and NBs seem to have lost all of their vaibility. I did not encounter a really good templar.
My ranking for classes (all magica build) would be:

Sorc > NB(ranged) > Templar >>> DK

The DK sword and board light armor build is gone. I don´t believe there is a way to make that one competetive in 1.6.

Tavore1138

NoRefunds wrote: »

The reason why magika builds are stronger is that its easy to never run out of magika(that means infinite shields/heals/bolt escape/etc), while its almost impossible to do the same with stamina, they need to reduce the cost of roll dodge and break free and make it easier to increase stamina regen,because there are no good sets that give stamina regen while with warlock/seducer you can get way too much mag regen, and since they nerfed way too hard regen on jewelry, sets are the only way to go.

This is the main problem I have found in testing on there - they have gimped all the ways of regenerating stamina while increasing the load on that pool by switching magicka abilities into stamina ones as well as increasing the costs of dodge/sneak/block.

It's a shame because on live some stamina builds were getting on a level with magicka builds - this is a back step back towards where we were last April.

Soulac

Derra wrote: »

The Problem stamina builds have atm when compared to magica is that there is no mundus that offers stamina regeneration.
To further complicate the resource issues it is far easier to get sets with magica regeneration and a decent 5p bonus than it is to find the same for stamina builds.
I still don´t think stamina builds are that far behind magica ones. They are simply less explored (I´ve fought a really good 2h sorc from NA for example).

I do believe the gaps between classes have increased though. Magica melee DKs and NBs seem to have lost all of their vaibility. I did not encounter a really good templar.
My ranking for classes (all magica build) would be:

Sorc > NB(ranged) > Templar >>> DK

The DK sword and board light armor build is gone. I don´t believe there is a way to make that one competetive in 1.6.

My opinion
Sorc > Templar > NB/DK
Magicka Melee is dead for NB and DK anyway, so I'm talking about range.
Templars with their new skill, blazing Shield and blazing Spears are beasts and as I heard their reflect works on melee too..
Sorc.. Well let's not start a discussion about that.

If they don't buff melee and give me a damn reason to continue play my NB I will probably reroll, no fun to get forced playing Destro or Stamina build (with no defense or heal)
It seems like nothing work together in the Nb class tree, except cloak and Veiled.. <. <

Etaniel

Derra wrote: »

The DK sword and board light armor build is gone. I don´t believe there is a way to make that one competetive in 1.6.

It's not just gone, it's been thrown on the floor, stomped on, incinerated and finally flushed down the sewers. The build didn't get nerfed ( which i would have been ok with), it got banhammered

olsborg

Etaniel wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The DK sword and board light armor build is gone. I don´t believe there is a way to make that one competetive in 1.6.

It's not just gone, it's been thrown on the floor, stomped on, incinerated and finally flushed down the sewers. The build didn't get nerfed ( which i would have been ok with), it got banhammered

I cant say thats a bad change, light armor tanking should never have been possible even with a *** shield in your hands:) Peace.

kkampaseb17_ESO

olsborg wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The DK sword and board light armor build is gone. I don´t believe there is a way to make that one competetive in 1.6.

It's not just gone, it's been thrown on the floor, stomped on, incinerated and finally flushed down the sewers. The build didn't get nerfed ( which i would have been ok with), it got banhammered

I cant say thats a bad change, light armor tanking should never have been possible even with a *** shield in your hands:) Peace.

Tell me where do you live to send you a bottle of Blue Johnny. I couldn't have said it better. One of the good aspects of this patch.

Gargragrond

Well, my first impression yesterday was that heavy armor dk tanking seems to be dead too. Dead in 3 secs with hits coming though with 10k damage, no time to heal or really do anything. I guess damage shields are now absolute must to survive the insane bursts. Blocking is no-go across the board.

Derra

Etaniel wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The DK sword and board light armor build is gone. I don´t believe there is a way to make that one competetive in 1.6.

It's not just gone, it's been thrown on the floor, stomped on, incinerated and finally flushed down the sewers. The build didn't get nerfed ( which i would have been ok with), it got banhammered

Still think there might be ways to make dks vaible combatants. Just no more 1vX - but thats what it is for every class.

Etaniel

olsborg wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The DK sword and board light armor build is gone. I don´t believe there is a way to make that one competetive in 1.6.

It's not just gone, it's been thrown on the floor, stomped on, incinerated and finally flushed down the sewers. The build didn't get nerfed ( which i would have been ok with), it got banhammered

I cant say thats a bad change, light armor tanking should never have been possible even with a *** shield in your hands:) Peace.

That's your opinion, and I accept it, but this sort of change shouldn't come like that. Making a build go from 100% strong to 0% usefull in one patch is not the way to go.

In fact 1.6 is as far from a smooth transition as it could be. As it's been said in other posts, how do you expect changing every skill in the game will result in something balanced, when they had a hard time getting it close to a balanced state in 8 months.

Nacario

It would be different if 1.6 was a balance patch of existing numbers from 1.5.8 but it's filled with skill changes and reworking of numbers so we kind of start from scratch. It doesnt mean the game is more balance, just that there are other fotm builds and meta now. True balance will most likely not happen, but devs should take another look at factors that have a larger impact. Like should they change how class shields work or stamina regen vs magica regen, and how would those changes affect everything else. Are certain weapon skill lines not viable? I for one didnt understand why flurry was nerfed by 8%, was it too good in PvE? In PvP it takes time to channel and by that time you sit and tank damage.

Teargrants

Lol, I'm gonna assume a lot of you guys are EU players getting their first crack at pts? Many NA players had similar views last week, it just takes a few days of build testing to find the right setups.

Here's a hint, 3 mag cost reduction or 3 stam cost reduction, depending if you're going mag or stam build.

All classes have a stun that goes through block now; sorc streak, temp shards, NB fear, and DK petrify. Complain all you want about stam builds needing stam for everything, but the deal is now mag builds simply can't keep up dodge roll/cc break/block in light armor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdD2iqFb-jE

Derra

So little dmg. Have you tried going for MOAR @Teargrants?

Like: Who needs sustain if your opponents error margin is zero amount of dmg.

Teargrants

Derra wrote: »

So little dmg. Have you tried going for MOAR @Teargrants?

Like: Who needs sustain if your opponents error margin is zero amount of dmg.

Going full dmg would mean taking out of health and stam to up mag, losing mag regen for spell dmg, losing seducer/warlock for spell dmg sets. Sure I could boost my shards way up, but that all means less bolt escape.

I prefer to out sustain opponents.

Derra

I used to think the same way. But with adds being a death sentence in 1.6 i´m changing my mind on that one. Killing quick might be more beneficial for solo play.
It surely is for dueling (from my perspective). With shorter time and pressure on the opponent constantly you can manage a hickup better. Also duels are less likely to be determined by loss of focus on one side.

chongguang

I am now downloading the PTS client to assist testing. Before that, i wanna know some basic situation of sorcs.
Can Sors win 1on1 to Templar without using pet build( Using overlord build, something like that )

sabresandiego_ESO

The more difficult stamina management and increased damage is one of the best things about 1.6. It has changed the way the game plays and made perma blocking much less useful unless you are a heavy armor shield user. 1.6 is a great patch and like teargrant said, you just have to adapt to it.

Bouvin

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@chongguang‌
Templar > sorcerer (pet build) > DK > NB

Maybe Sorcs with a pet build are above.
Sorcs, without a pet build, can be managed. However, Bolt Escape is really annoying (spam) and overload is too powerfull.

After a few days of Dueling this seems about right.

Also, templar are killing it in Group PvP because it's hard to interrupt a Radiant Destruction that a Templar is casting on you when you're being slammed into the ground by other players and he's 10 meters away.

chongguang

Bouvin wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@chongguang‌
Templar > sorcerer (pet build) > DK > NB

Maybe Sorcs with a pet build are above.
Sorcs, without a pet build, can be managed. However, Bolt Escape is really annoying (spam) and overload is too powerfull.

After a few days of Dueling this seems about right.

Also, templar are killing it in Group PvP because it's hard to interrupt a Radiant Destruction that a Templar is casting on you when you're being slammed into the ground by other players and he's 10 meters away.

Does it mean that Sors is hard to win 1on1 to templar(same skilk level) without using pet build ???

t.claudio.usnub18_ESO

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

After 3 hours of dueling in Cyrodiil, in short:
- Radiance is way too powerful
- Magicka builds are 20 to 30% more powerful than stamina builds
- Templar and sorc are above the other classes

It's sad to see that stamina builds are still not on par with magicka builds. This is a situation that lasts since launch (10 months ago), and is still not fixed in this 1.6 build, which is supposed to balance the combat system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ can you please pass this information to the combat system and skill team, so they can see what's wrong and try to find a solution to finally fix the stamina builds and make them as powerful as the magicka builds. One of the main issue is that the melee weapon damage is really too low (dual wield for instance).

My hot bars:
- One hand and a shield: pierce armor, heroic slash (or reverberating bash), green dragon blood, shielded assault, absorb magic - flawless dawnbreaker or corrosive armor
- Dual wield: rending slashes, unstable flame, igneous shield, flying blade, burning breath - flawless dawnbreaker

Not true, I have learned that you have to change the way you play, a Stam build is less about abilities to do damage and more about Light/Heavy attacks even Staff Light/Heavy scale directly with stam, magic builds seem to rely on mainly on abilities more to put a hurting on you while stam can destroy you with Light/Heavy attacks alone, the stam abilities are IMO there for utility and counters, the moment I started to change my way of playing to embrace that I started doing things no magic user could dream of with just about a full stam bar at all times to block, roll ect.

Armitas

Derra wrote: »

The DK sword and board light armor build is gone. I don´t believe there is a way to make that one competetive in 1.6.

This has been a said a lot in this thread. Could you or anyone else elaborate on this. I assume this is because of the block cost and the armor on light armor? I am bouncing around builds like crazy right now and unsure about anything I've put together so far, so anything you could say on this would be helpful.

Brizz

NoRefunds wrote: »

The reason why magika builds are stronger is that its easy to never run out of magika(that means infinite shields/heals/bolt escape/etc), while its almost impossible to do the same with stamina, they need to reduce the cost of roll dodge and break free and make it easier to increase stamina regen,because there are no good sets that give stamina regen while with warlock/seducer you can get way too much mag regen, and since they nerfed way too hard regen on jewelry, sets are the only way to go.

exactly this.

Gargragrond

Armitas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The DK sword and board light armor build is gone. I don´t believe there is a way to make that one competetive in 1.6.

This has been a said a lot in this thread. Could you or anyone else elaborate on this. I assume this is because of the block cost and the armor on light armor? I am bouncing around builds like crazy right now and unsure about anything I've put together so far, so anything you could say on this would be helpful.

Yes. The s/b build leveraged dk's block bonus passive (along with s/b block bonus) but blocking is not really feasible anymore.

Blocking a single hit costs now over 2000 stamina, and every stamina regen source has been nerfed (gdb regen bonus 30%->20%, stam regen glyphs: ~50% from live value, werewolf passive removed.. Means you basically can't block.

The armor doesn't really matter - even with full heavy armor and block cost reductions, blocking is still >1000stamina /hit. In addition, I guess every class has now some unblockable cc so you still have to break out quite often.

The block cost is a bit ridiculous tbh. Let's say someone hits you with two flame lashes or similar. If you don't block you lose 6k health. If you block, you lose 4k stamina and 3k health.. if they weave in light attacks, that's 8k stamina lost.

On the other hand, you can just cast damage shield for ~3k magicka and receive 0 damage and 0 stamina lost.. So no more blocking - say hello to damage shields

Gorthax

Etaniel wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The DK sword and board light armor build is gone. I don´t believe there is a way to make that one competetive in 1.6.

It's not just gone, it's been thrown on the floor, stomped on, incinerated and finally flushed down the sewers. The build didn't get nerfed ( which i would have been ok with), it got banhammered

Which is A OK in my book! That build needed to gtfo and never come back lol permablock casting? *twirls finger*

AriBoh

Dueling a sorc with stacked shields takes forever, and the best part is if the sorc looks like he/she is starting to lose they'll retreat to the other side of the map in 3 seconds. Also with shields not procing anything (DoTs, ult, executes) some builds just cannot compete with a class that could double shield (my poor magicka NB )

Oughash

Etaniel wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The DK sword and board light armor build is gone. I don´t believe there is a way to make that one competetive in 1.6.

It's not just gone, it's been thrown on the floor, stomped on, incinerated and finally flushed down the sewers. The build didn't get nerfed ( which i would have been ok with), it got banhammered

It will be made to work. Just watch. Someone will grind out a bajjjillion CPs and that build will be back w/ a vengeance, even better than before. The target passives are pretty obvious.

XEVENEX

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Dueling a NB with cloak takes forever, and the best part is if the NB looks like he/she is starting to lose they'll vanish then snipe you in the back of the melon. Also with invisible players not procing anything (DoTs, ult, executes) some builds just cannot compete with a class that can enter and exit combat at will.

FTFY

Derra

Nice bug on a sidenote: Radiant Magelight does not reduce attacks out of nightblade invisibility.