5 Pages of Feedback on 1.6 by Sigma Draconis [Update: Trial Videos]

pppontus

Maverick827 wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Werewolf
In 1.5 Werewolves get a Stamina regen buff in human form, without suffering any weaknesses. This makes it so that gaining Werewolf with no intention to ever tranform, and/or spend any skill points, is still a buff. There should either be a larger gain together with the poison damage debuff apply in human form as well, or the Stamina regen should only extend to Werewolf form. As it is now, there is no reason to be a human in 1.5.

I agree that it's unfair if there is no reason to be Human anymore, but at the same time, the 15% Stamina regen buff is the only benefit a tank can get from the "World" category of abilities now that the ultimate generation was removed from Blood Rage, which is also unfair.

I'd rather not see this removed unless something is added back to Werewolf (stamina gain on hit?) or an entirely new tank-specific "world" skill is added (Werebear, strains of Vampirism not weak to fire, etc.).

I mean it can stay, in my opinion, as long as they take a hit to something that would make you think twice about it. Reduced magicka regen? I don't know specifically, but you get my point already.

I think the only negative a tank can accept is a damage debuff, but that obviously doesn't fit well with Werewolf. I think an entirely new World skill line for tanks (built around trading offense for defense) is the only great solution, but until then, I'd rather not take any more nerfs, especially with the Stamina drought we're seeing on the PTS.

So everyone has to be a Werewolf for a little while to be competitive. Everyone had to be a Vampire to be competitive for a while as well. I don't mind.

Personally, I'd rather not have it this way even though I am a werewolf with 3 tank characters, but I see your point. It's clearly not the most pressing issue at the moment either.

pittser182

Regarding resource management and blocking costing stamina, perhaps blocking spells should cost magicka and blocking blades, blunts, and arrows should cost stamina.

tnliverpool

I agree there is no reason to not be either a Vampire or a WW. I would love to see each (Vamp, WW, and HUMAN) get some passive. WW gets 15% stamina regen and maybe 5-10% max stamina. Vamp gets their regen based on feeding and a flat 5-10% max magicka. Human gets 5% all regen and 5% max all stats.

Not attached to those ideas mind you, but rather just trying demonstrate something that would make your choice more meaningful. Other than RP reasons, there is no reason to be a human in this game.

pppontus

tnliverpool wrote: »

I agree there is no reason to not be either a Vampire or a WW. I would love to see each (Vamp, WW, and HUMAN) get some passive. WW gets 15% stamina regen and maybe 5-10% max stamina. Vamp gets their regen based on feeding and a flat 5-10% max magicka. Human gets 5% all regen and 5% max all stats.

Not attached to those ideas mind you, but rather just trying demonstrate something that would make your choice more meaningful. Other than RP reasons, there is no reason to be a human in this game.

That is another valid option, some sort of buff to humans that goes away once you turn beast. Although with most of these things you might as well count it as a debuff to the "beast"

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Thanks for all the incredibly detailed feedback in this thread, folks. We've passed it along to the dev team.

ThunderCat

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for all the incredibly detailed feedback in this thread, folks. We've passed it along to the dev team.

Greetings,

Thanks for the reply. All we would like to ask is to take note of the time we spent putting all these together and understand that we are doing it because we love the game and we want to see it succeed.

We ask that our pleas and feedback are listened to and are being given the appropriate amount of attention and consideration.

Joy_Division

I don't think it was realized how dependent on ultimates people were on clearing dungeon trash when the changes were made in 1.6. I warned people to that effect and specifically pointed to the fight in Spindleclutch that you have linked there.

All I have to say is I'm glad my PuG days are over and good luck trying to fit in a light attack when surrounded by 20 spiders....

pppontus

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for all the incredibly detailed feedback in this thread, folks. We've passed it along to the dev team.

Thank you @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌. I hope it proves useful, and if any clarification or further feedback is needed we're happy to help.

And as a bonus you can always have a laugh at a bunch of trial vets wiping on the 2nd boss. It feels like it just took revenge for all those 40 second kills.

C0pp3rhead

OP @pppontus‌ did an excellent job here, especially with the criticisms of endgame/vet content. The buffs to the mobs/bosses in conjunction with the "rebalancing"/weakening of our toons feels rather insulting. ZOS's (rightly) feels that some endgame content, especially AA, is too easy. They want to force us to use the mechanics. This makes sense.
However, forcing us to spend months of CP grinding in order to get back to where we are now is the wrong approach. On top of that, they have nullified the utility of several sets of trial reward gear, which some players have spent months collecting. We can understand making raids harder. What we cannot understand is why you feel the need to amputate our feet then tell us to walk to a hospital on the other side of town to get them reattached.

Maverick827 wrote: »

Werewolf
In 1.5 Werewolves get a Stamina regen buff in human form, without suffering any weaknesses. This makes it so that gaining Werewolf with no intention to ever tranform, and/or spend any skill points, is still a buff. There should either be a larger gain together with the poison damage debuff apply in human form as well, or the Stamina regen should only extend to Werewolf form. As it is now, there is no reason to be a human in 1.5.

I agree that it's unfair if there is no reason to be Human anymore, but at the same time, the 15% Stamina regen buff is the only benefit a tank can get from the "World" category of abilities now that the ultimate generation was removed from Blood Rage, which is also unfair.

I'd rather not see this removed unless something is added back to Werewolf (stamina gain on hit?) or an entirely new tank-specific "world" skill is added (Werebear, strains of Vampirism not weak to fire, etc.).

The basic idea of the world skills such as Vamp or WW is simple:
You get some awesome abilities & stats, but you also gain a glaring vulnerability.
For vampires, this is a weakness to fire. for WW, this is a weakness to poison.
As WW is now, you get a big free buff to stamina regen with no drawback. There is absolutely no reason to give humans a buff that goes away upon gaining Vamp/WW - that's like getting a "Participant" trophy for playing little league baseball.
Since ZOS seems opposed to applying the poison weakness debuff to WWs in human form, they need to give us a reason to transform into WW. Either that or (and I think this would be really cool) forcing WWs to transform during in-game full moons. It would definitely be a drawback, and would add an element of surprise into the game. If you don't like being a WW during that time, play on an alt.

rophez_ESO

OP: I agree with a lot of points, but there are many other issues not even mentioned. You mentioned wrecking blow hitting really hard in pvp, but neglected to mention you can spam that ability on a Templar and only serve to blow yourself up on his damage shield. Or that it will only serve to deplete a Sorc's damage shield, which he can recast for cheaper than the wrecking blow.

The issue about the end game gear: I agree that end game should result in good rewards, but I think they are looking at the fact that about 3% of the player base does SO, and the other 97% of the player base doesn't want to feel like second class citizens because they don't have the uber gear. Sad but true.

Maybe they'll improve crafting so that you can make uber items with tradeable drops from the trials.

Maybe someday, after "console has settled down," they'll actually release some interesting end game content that isn't a timed DPS race attached to a square dance for 12 people.

Good luck!

pppontus

rophez_ESO wrote: »

OP: I agree with a lot of points, but there are many other issues not even mentioned. You mentioned wrecking blow hitting really hard in pvp, but neglected to mention you can spam that ability on a Templar and only serve to blow yourself up on his damage shield. Or that it will only serve to deplete a Sorc's damage shield, which he can recast for cheaper than the wrecking blow.

I definitely agree with your concerns, I did mention in the OP that I personally and as a guild we don't do very much PvP and I simply haven't tested PvP enough to have much valuable input on that. Sorry! I think someone else is better suited to feedback those issues

Robbmrp

pppontus wrote: »

Conclusion
We all share the interest of this games continued success, and this feedback is provided 100% to enhance the game experience for everyone albeit with a large focus on endgame PvE, as that is our focus as a guild.

1.6 is a great opportunity to once and for all correct all the issues that have kept the game good rather than the best. Most of these things should be fairly straightforward but I (as well as many more of our members) will be happy to provide any further feedback and/or clarification here, in PM or on TS. If you need anything further from us, give me a shout and I’ll arrange it.

/ @pppontus
Officer of Sigma Draconis
http://sigmadraconisgaming.com

Thank you @pppontus‌ for an in depth review of 1.6. It was very detailed and informative!

WillS

The game should be fun, that's all that matters. With the changes intended for balancing, it has become that we need to learn everything again to be able to do the content that we had no trouble doing at all. So, you want us to grind the stuff again that we already spent quite a while grinding?

And Raid the Trials and give months of time to it for loot that's unrewarding for the effort?

THat is not fun.

THat's all i have to say right now.
@‌WillStrongh
Sigma Raider

diablo.brocub18_ESO

great post!

themizario

Dupe

themizario

my god! What if they only gave us 30 cp?!!!

Robbmrp

Harleyquincey wrote: »

I have just completed Wayrest Sewers Vet Mode as a Dragonknight Tank alongside fellow Sigmates and to be fair? The current situation is.. well, I think it's the death of each and every PuG out there. I am not ashamed to admit we had about seven wipes in that run, only a few of which due to surprise. But let's take an actual example, like the Bone Colossus mob. That thing is tankier than me - and even by far. Add to that massive ressource management issues (not stamina in my case though, thanks to shield-play enchantments) and a severe lack of DPS and what you end up with is.. a chore.

Doing that dungeon was neither fun, nor rewarding. It was a chore, it was annoying and it made me feel like a complete newbie. Several rounds of DSA vet are easier to tank than one of the bosses of Wayrest (the Ghost one, now insta-killing DPS even if they are positioned correctly).

This is simply not how it should feel - CP isn't supposed to be a punishment is it? This is the second time now ESO is going the way of increasing difficulty significantly with a more than sloppy job (the last time it was simply slapping HP, Stamina and Magicka on mobs, aka "scaling"), this time it's downscaling players.

If that's going to be the way dungeons are going to go, they aren't going to make much money on selling DLC content. Who wants to play a MMO when you can't do any dungeon with a PUG group.

Every dungeon in this game should be able to be completed with a PUG group. Of course there will be deaths. It's supposed to be difficult but not impossible with a PUG. That's what the whole reason the grouping tool was designed.

Grasshopper

Hello I am Grasshopper and I lead a merry band of Theorycrafters on PTS and live, as a Representative of them we would like to thank you for this article.

A Theorycrafters goal is to help a community advance from its current state. We would like to thank you for your contributions to our community and the in depth insight of what other players are thinking of the game currently.

So instead of just a normal post we are sending you 8 Dreugh Wax so you can gold one piece of gear

(Do not expect this kind of stuff often from us we already spend a lot of money on random items for theorycrafting)

angelyn

Grasshopper wrote: »

Hello I am Grasshopper and I lead a merry band of Theorycrafters on PTS and live, as a Representative of them we would like to thank you for this article.

A Theorycrafters goal is to help a community advance from its current state. We would like to thank you for your contributions to our community and the in depth insight of what other players are thinking of the game currently.

So instead of just a normal post we are sending you 8 Dreugh Wax so you can gold one piece of gear

(Do not expect this kind of stuff often from us we already spend a lot of money on random items for theorycrafting)

Oooh @Grasshopper how bout a dreugh wax for me? Afterall you did say you would keep some of what we posted in this thread for future theorycrafting

*cheeky* ..hell if you are out of dreugh wax, then just send me a sorc build so I can survive in light armour ( I've discovered hardened ward in PVE but I'm sure sheilds will be nerfed soon due to PVP uproar.)

Yusuf

I'm not usually one who says "this skill is useless since you nerfed it" but i have a hard time seeing any advanteage negate is still providing.

I don't care about the tiny regen-buffs it's giving or the defensive buff that suppression-field gives since it pales compared to nova or veil-of-blades.

The strength of negate lied in the fact that you casted a no-magic-area where your group was relatively safe.

If the devs really wanted to force us to play with the mechanics of the second boss in AA they should've made "null pain" non-negatable but not make negate utterly useless.

I just can't see myself wasting an ultimate only to stun trashmobs since the atronach or the meteor does the same and even deals damage while doing it.

Grasshopper

angelyn wrote: »

Grasshopper wrote: »

Hello I am Grasshopper and I lead a merry band of Theorycrafters on PTS and live, as a Representative of them we would like to thank you for this article.

A Theorycrafters goal is to help a community advance from its current state. We would like to thank you for your contributions to our community and the in depth insight of what other players are thinking of the game currently.

So instead of just a normal post we are sending you 8 Dreugh Wax so you can gold one piece of gear

(Do not expect this kind of stuff often from us we already spend a lot of money on random items for theorycrafting)

Oooh @Grasshopper how bout a dreugh wax for me? Afterall you did say you would keep some of what we posted in this thread for future theorycrafting

*cheeky* ..hell if you are out of dreugh wax, then just send me a sorc build so I can survive in light armour ( I've discovered hardened ward in PVE but I'm sure sheilds will be nerfed soon due to PVP uproar.)

*slips you a little something under the table*

>_>
<_<

pppontus

So after finally getting a full night of testing on the PTS, I have a few more comments.

Veteran Dungeons seem fairly OK, I don't know if anything changed in the 1.6.1 patch at all or if it's just us getting off the templates but we've managed every dungeon so far including the Praxin pull without ultimates. I am still convinced that the trash is way too powerful though, it's not necessarily hard .. but it is so time consuming. Some of the trash pulls take about as long time as a regular boss fight..

Also XP is abysmal. 30K during enligthment for a dungeon run that takes half an hour or so, puts it at 13 hours per point. That is basically like providing us with thousands of VR levels.

+ the real kicker in my research today which is very sad.

Champion System .. WTF moment
So, there's a "passive" in the Champion System that gives you 12% spell/weapon crit when you have invested 30 points. Now, the Champion System was supposed to prevent large gaps between players and provide a slow long-term progression system.. this is not the way to do it.



What's bound to happen is you're going to have PUGs ask for people only with 90 CP, because you need it to get that passive. Every DPS in the game must have that passive. If you're sitting at 89 CP, you're going to be doing 6% less damage than if you had 90? Those are the kind of gaps that shouldn't be in a system like this.

My suggestion (which I think is the most important one that can be raised in regards to update 6):

Put the crit back on gear, remove this passive and if needed give a little more to the respective "active" stars instead.

This would prevent an enormous gap between different point levels, and provide that long-term progression system that doesn't separate players too much. I'm also sure this needs to be done with other passives, or the passive system needs to be scrapped altogether, because having it this way will do nothing but force a massive grind and make your effectiveness directly related to your CP.

I don't see any way that this can make it to live without causing very serious issues with game balance.

angelyn

Also I've just done an enchant comparison:
So we are now sitting at:

• Health scaled on 1:7 Ratio
• Magicka/Stamina scaled on 1:9 Ratio
• Health Regen scaled on 1:11.5 Ratio
• Magicka/Stamina Regen scaled on 1:11 Ratio
• Heavy/Medium Armour scaled on 1:4 Ratio
• Light Armour scaled on 1:2 Ratio
• Some mobs health scaled on a 1:7 Ratio
• Some mobs health scaled on a 1:9 Ratio
• Max Health Enchants scaled on a 1:5 Ratio
• Max Magicka/Stamina scaled on a 1:6 Ratio
• All recovery enchants scaled on a 1:3 Ratio
• Reduce cost enchants scaled up on a 1:8/9 Ratio
• Spell Resistance/Armour glyphs scaled on a 1:6 Ratio
• X resistance Glyphs (eg Fire Resistance) scaled on a 1:2 Ratio
• Spell/Weapon Damage Glyphs increased on a 1:2 Ratio
• General Damage enchants for weapons varied between 1:3 and 1:10 Ratio

Considering most mobs health levelled in a 1:7 and above ratio, our enchants seem to have scaled a lot less.

All comparisons can still be found in this thread.

xaraan

Great post OP (and others) summed up a lot of the issues perfectly. I'd say I agree with almost everything.

Maybe not letting people have toggle skills on one bar for both, as then the other bar would just be buffs like that, I mean, sorcs give up a slot or two for pets but those pets to great dps now. Letting them have those pets and a couple buffs and a full bar to fight with would be a bit much. Though I have wished for the longest time that we had one more slot for a power, even 1 more would make a difference (even if it was only a buff/toggle skill allowed there).

As for the Bow, yes, it is horrible right now. Compare blood craze to Venom Arrow for example (yeah, it's a little apples and oranges, but both are quick attacks that rely on dots for a chunk of their damage) - venom arrow is twice the cost and does much less damage. Flurry does more damage than Snipe, though yeah, they both work a bit differently, both take time to cast or play out. Bow is just crazy weak right now. Heck, scatter shot is only a couple meters longer range than Uppercut -- A Bow Attack almost the same range as a melee attack! And being ranged doesn't make you safer, especially in dungeon runs, so the ranged/melee benefit isn't there, especially with all the gap closers and ranged attacks in the game.

And the game definitely feels like we have been nerfed for the champion system in some ways (not every way) and now we will have to spend the next year leveling up without new content (so redoing the same stuff over and over and over) to get back to what we already were. Yay?

f047ys3v3n

Excellent work OP and thank you for the mention of my gear thread.

I especially like your idea of including block cost increase in battle spirit for PVP. It should, by this time, be obvious to the developers that if skills and resources behave the same in PVP as they do in PVP a tank that has to sustain blocking 5k (old numbers) boss hits in PVE will not be kill-able by even a couple dps players in PVP. This really should be obvious but the ZOS folks have created a pattern of waffling back and forth between tanks working in PVP and being broken in PVE or not working in PVE and being unkillable in PVP. Now it appears were on the not working in PVE pattern again in 1.6. The same thing is true with a number of other skills such as Negate.

I simply don't think you can achieve any level of compelling play in both PVP and PVE if many skills behave the same in both. With the exception of nerfing stealth attacks in PVP relative to PVE (actually a bad balance move as sneek attack nightblades are not longer really viable vs tanky characters and so siegers need not be guarded) I don't know of an instance where ZOS has recognized this limitation. The challenges of fighting a boss with 100x your health that hits for 5x a players hits is simply different than that of fighting other similar players.

Ult generation is an important offshoot of this fundamental PVE vs PVP dichotomy. Ult generation, management, and placement was one of the most compelling and challenging parts of trials. Now you will have some combination of the absurdity of light attacks while aoe'ing to keep the clock running and keeping mobs alive instead of killing them to get the groups ults ready for the next boss. Can you say light attack then block for 8 seconds repeat as necessary. It's all very silly really and I feel like trials would be diminished if people continue to do them which they wont because the gear is garbage. I'm not kidding about this. Really, you won't get 5% of the current rate of completes. Nobody is going to be doing this stuff.

The truth is that from an endgame PVE standpoint, things were not that far from balanced. Sure DK's still needed the nerf hammer on their AOE probably in the form of stopping giving them enough resources back after dropping a standard to make another in 2 or 3 seconds and Sorcs needed something compelling like say the highest single target dps by making crystal shards instant cast for weave with maybe the knockdown effect being the part that needed to proc but other than that the combat seemed compelling and balanced for the most part in SO, VDSA, and Vet Dungeons though AA and Hel-Ra did need a boost.

I feel like 1.6 throws out the baby with the bath water in terms of balance, grossly decreases complexity with the ult thing, is really all about instituting a new XP grind to try to distract players from the lack of new content, and aims, from what I hear unsuccessfully, at fixing PVP balance at the cost of PVE functionality. I think experienced players will quit because they were robbed of XP because they weren't rewarded but a small fraction of earned CP, had their hard earned gear destroyed, and lack new content to amuse them. I think the precious casuals will quit because the combination of the nerf they receive and the reset of everything they have learned with all different skills will frustrate them and they will die, a lot.

I'll keep tabs, if the game becomes compelling I'll be back. Best of luck to all of you, your going to need it.

WraithAzraiel

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for all the incredibly detailed feedback in this thread, folks. We've passed it along to the dev team.

OUTSTANDING!

Jaerlach

With so much changing, you will have to take your time and re-theory craft.

I have seen DK builds hit 14-15k dps on the PTS now that people had a week to retest and regear things. I am sure those builds exist for others, too, but it will take some time to find them.

PVP seems more broken.

We did and completed AA in 1.6, and it was definitely slow. Exp gains for dungeons (esp final bosses) and trials need gigantic buffs. I really think a vet dungeon should be worth 50-75k exp, a trial 100-125, and sanctum worth an entire CP.

tnliverpool

Jaerlach wrote: »

... Exp gains for dungeons (esp final bosses) and trials need gigantic buffs. I really think a vet dungeon should be worth 50-75k exp, a trial 100-125, and sanctum worth an entire CP.

Totally agree with this. But it does need some sort of diminishing daily return. First kill/completion is full amount, second 50%, third onward 25%. That is of course only applicable if they SUBSTANTIALLY increase the XP rewards.

Jaerlach

Why? as long as the exp is tied to the end boss or completion it's fine. In fact, it'd be a huge boon as it would provide a good reason to do a daily pledge again to help others. If some group wants to spam completion of banished cells to level up, more power to them. They're playing content and likely to need new group members as time goes on.

Kragorn

Jaerlach wrote: »

Why? as long as the exp is tied to the end boss or completion it's fine. In fact, it'd be a huge boon as it would provide a good reason to do a daily pledge again to help others. If some group wants to spam completion of banished cells to level up, more power to them. They're playing content and likely to need new group members as time goes on.

ZOS nerfed 1-50 zone delves bosses XP and drops and put in time lockouts to prevent farming .. I hardly think they'd take a different view on end-game equivalents.