1.6 Shield stacking, infinity Ressources

Merrak

Grim13 wrote: »

Merrak wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Except that those so called "tanks" are usually perfectly capable of dishing out enough dmg to kill you in 3 seconds as well. Oh, and they're healing/shielding, so they're not technically tanks, but tank/healer hybrids.
Add to this the dps capability, and you get a "tank healer dps".

Understood. I can see the point you are trying to make. But I like playing "tealdeeps".

In all seriousness, I do understand how this is bad, so what is the solution?

• One Damage Shield at a time? What happens when I cast a damage shield on myself, but a Healer casts one that hits me as well?
• Cooldown on how often you can use shields? Well, that could be problematic for PvE, and in all honesty, I'm not a fan of getting nerfed "in the interest of fairness for PvP".
• Reduce strength of Damage Shields? Well, too much the wrong way and you again potentially nerf PvE players who use these for mechanics and not just shield spamming.

My solution: Make PvP have a different effect on abilities than PvE. Then they can do whatever they want and ruin abilities until they are blue in the face.

Soulac wrote: »

Shields shouldn´t be stackable.

They need to make them the same was as the new buffs. Only one kind of each type can apply at a time

Ok, great! Now define priorities. If I put one on myself, but a Healer casts one and it hits me, which stays and which is ignored? If ignored, then what happens to the cost of the ability that was cast? Is it my fault that I casted an ability to prevent damage or my healer for also trying to be proactive?

Varicite

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Whether this gets fixed pretty much determines if I'll keep playing this game in the coming months.

The expectations aren't high

sad part is... the DPS is not enough magicka feels weak...
shields are soo strong also.
also they could knock me down but I have 40% stam recovery soo if I just CC break and never block I cant die...

I don't know why ZOS keeps doing the exact opposite most players want:

TTK is too low, people die in <0,1 seconds. What does ZOS do?
Reduces health.

Shield/Heal spam is everywhere in PvP. What does ZOS do?
Makes it even stronger (and more shields).


Atleast the permablocking is somewhat limited now that it costs a lot more (without Champion Points), but I can't really find much else that would positively affect PvP

I don´t know what you want ppl to do.

"plz, plz, no shields so i can gank moar!!!"

Your always saying ppl don´t want shields and heal spamming but i´ve yet to see evidence of that claim. You don´t want shield and heal spam.

Araxleon wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Well here you go, just skip the Record problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjv8L40w7a8

Bare in mind im a NB This is 1 shield.
I have healing ward if I get low.
DK/sorc/templar can do this but even stronger because they have a shield.
Shield stacking is powerful... and magicka DPS is just weak

This has always been possible on live. If a player focuses only on casting shields you wont kill him without cc. I don´t see the problem really.

Personally, I just want shields to be a situational ability, stack them to survive at the cost of resources.

Clearly, the resource cost for the survival the shields provide simply isn't high enough, because it isn't situational. People shield stack 24/7, and I believe it's a design flaw to be able to count on them that much w/ such little penalty in both dps (granted, magicka itself seems a bit low damage-wise atm, but you don't lose any damage for shield stacking) and resource management.

One might be tempted to say "But if you're spending all your time casting shields, you aren't doing any damage", which is partially true. But on the flipside, if you can endlessly cast those shields while keeping up Immovable, then there is no downside to shield-stacking. You will simply outlast your opponent's resources and win, or they will give up and you continue doing your thing, which is still a win.

Trayyacakes

Merrak wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

Merrak wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

Knock him down FFS. This doesn't mean anything.

Your right but the it shows how I can tank that must damage using 1 shield + having 100% magicka the whole time

Araxleon you're a very skilled PvP player and it's compounded by the fact that you're sporting some of the best gear in the game (5 piece vr12 Warlock). The problem is that they are not putting out enough dps, not the shield, IMO. DPS seems low overall.

I know Araxleon is a good player, but what he's doing in this video requires absolutely zero skill

It shouldn't be possible to tank two people like that & remain at 100% magicka while they go completely out of magicka, that's just stupid.

I'd like to see this tested with other class shields and against stamina builds. I have a feeling it's just as broken.

Sorry, but I agree with @XEVENEX‌ here. Having two people stage a full Magicka based DPS attack on one tank who is only spamming a Magicka Absorb shield only proves that it is working as intended. In a real setting, this isn't an issue.

In a real setting, just last night in fact, I alone was giving Araxleon everything I had. Knocking him down with every single shard proc, and weaving perfectly.

Did I kill him? No, but he was working his ass off trying to keep up, and I did get through his shield quite often. He also wasn't much of a threat, he was way to busy cc breaking, healing, and reapplying shields.

There needs to be some more balance work to be sure, but shields are an awesome, active defensive mechanic, and they do in fact take some skill to use effectively.

So basically, with a multiple shield spam, he's acting like a tank, distracting everyone from something else, and just soaking up all the DPS.

I'm not saying it's perfect by any means, but like you said, you are basically making one DPS a non-factor by forcing them to turtle into shield spamming. In a group setting, he would be ignored, the rest of his team burned to the ground and then the group refocused on him once he had no help. Fair assessment?

No it isn't a fair assessment. In a group setting if you focus him he will turtle, and you won't kill him. When you make the mistake of leaving him alone to deal with the rest of his team he will unload on you forcing you to pressure him again.

This would be fine and dandy if he was a tank build that could not dish out high damage. If he was forcing you to focus on him by being a pain in the ass (applying roots, snares, and other debuffs) and didn't hit like a truck. The fact that he can turtle to survive, and then hit like a truck is the real problem.

People had a problem with block casting, but block casters took damage. It was also possible to run a block caster out of stamina. It's even easier to run a block caster out of stamina on the pts. What is the counter to a shield spammer? What about one who runs immovable? You can't ignore them because they will melt your face if you do.

Which leads me to my next question. Why is immovable even a thing? Lower the cost of CC break if necessary and get rid of that skill please. A skill that grants CC immunity for a low cost, considering what it does, has no place in a game where you can freely break out of any stun.

That kind of turned into a rant... my bad.

Wahee

DDuke wrote: »

As for making these healers killable in PvP... well, that's another story. Perhaps make damaging abilities more cost efficient than heals/shields?

This. Currently a damage shield provides protection equivalent to several dps abilities. For example, it takes me 2-3 surprise attacks to break hardened ward. I spend more resources breaking the shield than my opponent does reapplying it.

You have to flip this around. Shields should be a counter to burst dps, not a counter to all dps. Make them expensive enough that they are primarily used to mitigate heavy burst dps situations when focused, not all the time.

I'd also prefer to see more efficient heals and less efficient shields. Heals already have a counter with heal debuffs. Prioritizing heals over shields makes things like debuffs and purging important. Shields don't really have a counter except for maybe hard cc and burst, but thats a counter to healing and just turtling in general.

Trayyacakes

Merrak wrote: »

Grim13 wrote: »

Merrak wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Except that those so called "tanks" are usually perfectly capable of dishing out enough dmg to kill you in 3 seconds as well. Oh, and they're healing/shielding, so they're not technically tanks, but tank/healer hybrids.
Add to this the dps capability, and you get a "tank healer dps".

Understood. I can see the point you are trying to make. But I like playing "tealdeeps".

In all seriousness, I do understand how this is bad, so what is the solution?

• One Damage Shield at a time? What happens when I cast a damage shield on myself, but a Healer casts one that hits me as well?
• Cooldown on how often you can use shields? Well, that could be problematic for PvE, and in all honesty, I'm not a fan of getting nerfed "in the interest of fairness for PvP".
• Reduce strength of Damage Shields? Well, too much the wrong way and you again potentially nerf PvE players who use these for mechanics and not just shield spamming.

My solution: Make PvP have a different effect on abilities than PvE. Then they can do whatever they want and ruin abilities until they are blue in the face.

Soulac wrote: »

Shields shouldn´t be stackable.

They need to make them the same was as the new buffs. Only one kind of each type can apply at a time

Ok, great! Now define priorities. If I put one on myself, but a Healer casts one and it hits me, which stays and which is ignored? If ignored, then what happens to the cost of the ability that was cast? Is it my fault that I casted an ability to prevent damage or my healer for also trying to be proactive?

Shields need to have a diminishing returns, And the stronger shield should take precedence.

Something like I put on Hardened ward or Igneous shield then throw on Harnessed magicka, harnessed magicka should only be 50% of tooltip amount.

This Dr should last as for a set time too not just until The shields are destroyed. lets say 20s.

You should never be able to have a damage shield bigger than your health pool.

The damage shield on ferocious leap shouldn't stack with anything as it is all ready the size of your health pool.

After watching this video I would say the magicka return on harness magicka probably needs a nerf as well.

Varicite

This is probably why these types of abilities are balanced by cooldowns in most other games.

Low-cost spammable shields is always going to be a tricky thing to get right balance-wise as soon as resource management becomes trivial while casting them.

Or, you could just take the tact ZOS has for the past year, and just barely attempt to balance them at all.

Grim13

Merrak wrote: »

Grim13 wrote: »

Merrak wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Except that those so called "tanks" are usually perfectly capable of dishing out enough dmg to kill you in 3 seconds as well. Oh, and they're healing/shielding, so they're not technically tanks, but tank/healer hybrids.
Add to this the dps capability, and you get a "tank healer dps".

Understood. I can see the point you are trying to make. But I like playing "tealdeeps".

In all seriousness, I do understand how this is bad, so what is the solution?

• One Damage Shield at a time? What happens when I cast a damage shield on myself, but a Healer casts one that hits me as well?
• Cooldown on how often you can use shields? Well, that could be problematic for PvE, and in all honesty, I'm not a fan of getting nerfed "in the interest of fairness for PvP".
• Reduce strength of Damage Shields? Well, too much the wrong way and you again potentially nerf PvE players who use these for mechanics and not just shield spamming.

My solution: Make PvP have a different effect on abilities than PvE. Then they can do whatever they want and ruin abilities until they are blue in the face.

Soulac wrote: »

Shields shouldn´t be stackable.

They need to make them the same was as the new buffs. Only one kind of each type can apply at a time

Ok, great! Now define priorities. If I put one on myself, but a Healer casts one and it hits me, which stays and which is ignored? If ignored, then what happens to the cost of the ability that was cast? Is it my fault that I casted an ability to prevent damage or my healer for also trying to be proactive?

Well, I'd say it should default to whichever has the greatest amount of absorption left...

Domander

Shields are not the problem here.

It's possible to have enough magicka regen that you will never run out of magicka, that is a design flaw that needs fixed.

XEVENEX

There are some things they got right with shields. They do not benefit from armor or spell resistance. Vampire shields still take 50% more damage from fire. Basically, they take full damage from everything.

I don't think ZOS should knee-jerk nerf them. They wont scale as well with the champion system as people put points into physical and magical damage.

Please also remember that this guy has put a lot of effort into his magicka sustain. vr12 warlock's, cost reduction jewelry, and harness magicka vs magic damage. This is not the best example of shields being OP.

I think we should start by removing shield stacking, like Merrak and Grim suggested above.

DDuke

Domander wrote: »

Shields are not the problem here.

It's possible to have enough magicka regen that you will never run out of magicka, that is a design flaw that needs fixed.

That is another design flaw that needs to be fixed*

Same as being able to kill someone in <0,1 seconds, unusable stealth etc...


This is the first time I wish they'd actually keep the patch in PTS for a looong time. There's so much that needs to get fixed this time...

Soulac

Warlock didn't proc, no cost reduction glyphs used.
Do you read the stuff arax and me are writing here?

Sotha_Sil

did you make the test before using champion points ? after ? Because a lot of issues can seem to appear whereas you just need to invest points in the champion skill lines to get the DPS level u used to have.

XEVENEX

Soulac wrote: »

Warlock didn't proc, no cost reduction glyphs used.
Do you read the stuff arax and me are writing here?

That's not what he told me. He told me he uses cost reduction jewelry. Also, it doesn't need to proc. It has two regen bonuses on top of whatever is returned from harness magicka.

This is a bad example I'm sorry. It's terrible in fact. I did much MUCH more damage to him solo. We can record THAT if you like tonight.

NotSo

You should only be able to have one damage shield active on yourself at any time. But healers shields should apply to you as well since it is fulfilling the healer role. This way you will be forced to pop your shield at odd intervals to stay alive instead of throwing up 3 at a time and lasting an extended duration.

Attacking a shield should still allow ult generation (wtf)
Critical hits should be possible aswell.

Also, I am not against the proposal of having increased cost to shield spamming.

Soulac

While testing he told me he's using Spelldmg and Stamina Reg, no cost reduction.

Higher Dps by putting points in the champion-system tree wouldn't change anything.
You won't deal enough Dps to destroy the shields.

prototypefb

to sum it up:
1) Armor skills must be usable only if you are wearing 5 pieces of armor type, period!
2) Shields need to act like other buffs on 1.6 - major and minor shields, no stacking.
3) DOTs and skills that can proc burning/bleeding etc should go through shield, at least effects.

TheBucket

1. Why are people defending this mechanic? Do you really want to see this in live? This is worse than DK Vamps ever were because EVERYONE can do it.

2. Arax, for giggles.. What is the likely hood that a player can do the same against physical damage with just a shield in one hand, and reductions glyphs? I'm only asking because if you can pick which resist you want to be basically immune too and keep it up 100%. That would be interesting.

XEVENEX

Bottom line is these two dudes are dealing *** poor magic damage while feeding him magicka through harness magicka to get the results that they want you to see.

I did far, far more damage to him solo, breaking his shield on multiple occasions. He was struggling to keep up and only did so because he is an excellent player.

This is a terrible example on so many levels.

Soulac

XEVENEX wrote: »

Bottom line is these two dudes are dealing *** poor magic damage while feeding him magicka through harness magicka to get the results that they want you to see.

I did far, far more damage to him solo, breaking his shield on multiple occasions. He was struggling to keep up and only did so because he is an excellent player.

This is a terrible example on so many levels.

Dude it's not about your damage or something and no one cares about it.
We both ran the template, so you can't expect the maxed out dmg anyway.

Breaking the shield isn't the problem, the problem are the infinity resources and the shield stacking.
Fights with Shield stacking are boring as hell, even if you can destroy them.

XEVENEX

I don't care about my damage either, and I don't care if they nerf stacking. I care that this is painting a false picture for people who don't know any better. There is already enough whining about shields.

DDuke

XEVENEX wrote: »

I don't care about my damage either, and I don't care if they nerf stacking. I care that this is painting a false picture for people who don't know any better. There is already enough whining about shields.

For a damn good reason.

There's also enough people trying to defend them, just because they themselves use them all the time.

I'm one-shotting people all the time in Cyrodiil. 3k Health? Boom, you're dead no matter who you are, or how good you are.

Is it fun for me? Sure.
Is it fair & good for the game? Nope, I don't think so...

Same with damage shields, they need adjustment so they aren't the thing literally almost everybody uses.

McDoogs

XEVENEX wrote: »

There is already enough whining about shields.

Clearly there isn't since they continue to be overpowered.

Domander

DDuke wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

I don't care about my damage either, and I don't care if they nerf stacking. I care that this is painting a false picture for people who don't know any better. There is already enough whining about shields.

For a damn good reason.

There's also enough people trying to defend them, just because they themselves use them all the time.

I'm one-shotting people all the time in Cyrodiil. 3k Health? Boom, you're dead no matter who you are, or how good you are.

Is it fun for me? Sure.
Is it fair & good for the game? Nope, I don't think so...

Same with damage shields, they need adjustment so they aren't the thing literally almost everybody uses.

This is like complaining that everybody uses heals.

Glory

I won't argue that damage shields aren't strong. When used correctly they can be very beneficial (as they should be, since light armor players are super squishy without them and can get nuked even more easily on PTS than live).

After fighting good stamina builds with a shield build, I can definitely tell you that stamina attacks burn through damage shields like no other. I've been focused in open world and died in seconds when enemy players are smart in their burst and focus fire.

Be it CC'ing that player (Immovable can counter but it's a build decision), using a smart stamina playstyle, or ignoring that player, there are counters to shields.

Nerfing the hell out of shields will basically make light armor builds COMPLETELY inferior to medium or heavy armor.

Soulac

XEVENEX wrote: »

I don't care about my damage either, and I don't care if they nerf stacking. I care that this is painting a false picture for people who don't know any better. There is already enough whining about shields.

Well they get the picture of how shields letting you avoiding any kind of dmg by pressing one button and nothing else.
You don't want to get stunned? Weave immovable every couple of seconds between your shields.

Yes you can do this already but not like this.
Dmg got nerfed for most skills (stats massively reduced, Spelldmg glyphs nerfed) and shields are much stronger without softcaps now.
U need longer to destroy a single Shield.

In addition to that the cost of Harness is reduced and you can push it even lower, so you basically get more Magicka back.

danno8

Well if you all recall, Blazing Shield used to stop magicka regeneration for Templars while active. Perhaps Hardened Ward, Blazing, Obsidian need this treatment. Or perhaps 50%. Something so that they are worthwhile but not worth spamming over and over.

You could probably leave Ward alone since it gives shields to others, and it would be silly for a teammate to stop your regeneration.

XEVENEX

DDuke wrote: »

Same with damage shields, they need adjustment so they aren't the thing literally almost everybody uses.

Everyone uses jump in mario brothers. Everyone uses potions in ESO. This is a terrible argument for a nerf. It is intended to be an active, reactive defensive ability for an active, reactive combat game.

NotSo

What if damage shields still allowed 25% of the damage through.

Merrak

XEVENEX wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Same with damage shields, they need adjustment so they aren't the thing literally almost everybody uses.

Everyone uses jump in mario brothers. Everyone uses potions in ESO. This is a terrible argument for a nerf. It is intended to be an active, reactive defensive ability for an active, reactive combat game.

Let's not get everyone started about the Damage Shield attached to potions now either...

Merrak

NotSo wrote: »

What if damage shields still allowed 25% of the damage through.

Then people would go back to complaining about block casting, because everyone would cast the bubble while blocking.