In Regards to the Upcoming DK Nerf

jpalm1995

Dear ZOS, I would like to make a plea to you in regards to the upcoming nerf of reflective scales. Let me start by saying that I do NOT play a dragonknight. I play a sorcerer and a nightblade. However, I think that every class has their respective strength and the strength of the DK comes from its survivability. By adding a cap on the number of projectiles reflected; you effectively take away a DKs ability to survive and tank upfront in PvP. The DK should be able to tank multiple players; just like the sorcerer can escape any fight, the nightblade can stealth out of almost any encounter, and the templar can heal without a restoration staff.

I understand why people feel like the ability should be nerfed. Trust me, I play a sorcerer. However, I think the nerf can come in a form and still be effective. Personally, I think reflective scales should only reflect abilities, so light and heavy attacks can still damage the user. This allows players using ranged dps to at least get some damage on them. I also like Sypher's idea of making it like the bolt escape nerf. Add an additional magicka cost in order to discourage spamming reflective scales.

As a PvP enthusiast, I like to see every class being played to some degree of success. I feel like this nerf won't effect PvE too much, but could really hurt the PvPers. I understand ZOS has a very difficult job in trying to balance the game. I'm not disagreeing with a nerf to reflective scales, merely suggesting a different avenue of approach.

Thank you!

Voodoo

If I were you I would Bubble and Hearth away now.

david.haypreub18_ESO

The way they are nerfing Scales would not be my first choice either (I would prefer they make it just reflect physical projectiles, to counter the Snipe/Poison Arrow spam). But it still is miles better than the nearest similar skill, Defensive Posture, which only does one projectile, and only a spell projectile at that. So it still is verging on OP even after the nerf... it's just that DKs have had it so good for so long it is going to seem like a heavy nerf.

Suntzu1414

In PVP (now), RS is just being abused.

You have DKs, standing on 2nd levels of keeps...just standing there.
Spamming RS, while protecting other players behind them...(whom are attacking you).

By nerfing this skill... it will make DK players better.
And the game more realistic.


Kill Well
ST

Armitas

Suntzu1414 wrote: »

In PVP (now), RS is just being abused.

You have DKs, standing on 2nd levels of keeps...just standing there.
Spamming RS, while protecting other players behind them...(whom are attacking you).

By nerfing this skill... it will make DK players better.
And the game more realistic.


Kill Well
ST

What? RS doesn't protect other players, you can still target them and shoot them. If they can hit you, you can hit them.

Play better? if the DK is doing nothing but reflect stop shooting him. Casting reflect is only harmful if you continue firing at it. No one is forcing you to sit at the bottom of a wall and continually shoot at a DK that is hitting scales over and over.

Yeah we can cast it over and over if we are not doing anything else. And who needs to do anything else when there are people who are willing to shoot themselves in the face over and over at the bottom of a wall knowing that it will be reflected. How is it that the DK needs to play better?

cote-bmsb16_ESO

I was in TB, defending Glade & I looked out over to EP's siege and a lot of DKs flappin & lots of dragons blood. Its just popular, its not OP at all. (@-@)

Thechemicals

Reflective should not reflect light and heavy range attacks. That is all...

AllPlayAndNoWork

Easiest way to sort this would be to raise the cost of using reflective scales. in the same way they did with bolt escape.

Simples.

Thechemicals

AllPlayAndNoWork wrote: »

Easiest way to sort this would be to raise the cost of using reflective scales. in the same way they did with bolt escape.

Simples.

Seems unfair. Bolt escape removes you from the battle and reflective scales does not. This is a class that has no escape tactic people. Once they show up, they fight till they die.

AllPlayAndNoWork

After casting, the next Reflective Scales cast within 4 seconds costs 50% more.

DK's get to keep some survivability. Restricting it to 4 means that 6 players could kill a DK in a few seconds. That's no survivability.

Thechemicals

Doesnt matter. Most Dk's will spam Defensive posture during the 4 second wait of reflective. Doing this means they will have a full defensive loadout and a cream your face loadout.

Pmarsico9

I missed this, where is this nerf mentioned?

Bouvin

There should be a limit on the number or damage of spells it reflects.

It should not make the player completely invulnerable to all ranged attacks for the entire duration. That is much stonger than any other defensive skill in the game.

jpalm1995

Bouvin wrote: »

There should be a limit on the number or damage of spells it reflects.

It should not make the player completely invulnerable to all ranged attacks for the entire duration. That is much stonger than any other defensive skill in the game.

This only last for four seconds. I don't see it as much of a problem because the DKs really don't have any class ranged abilities. In my opinion, people consider reflective scales "OP" because almost everyone is casting. I think a buff to melee dps across the game would help negate the feeling of RS feeling over-powered.

Sharee

jpalm1995 wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

There should be a limit on the number or damage of spells it reflects.

It should not make the player completely invulnerable to all ranged attacks for the entire duration. That is much stonger than any other defensive skill in the game.

This only last for four seconds.

It only lasts four seconds per cast and there is no cooldown on it. A properly specced magicka DK can keep it up until the cows come home.

jpalm1995

Sharee wrote: »

jpalm1995 wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

There should be a limit on the number or damage of spells it reflects.

It should not make the player completely invulnerable to all ranged attacks for the entire duration. That is much stonger than any other defensive skill in the game.

This only last for four seconds.

It only lasts four seconds per cast and there is no cooldown on it. A properly specced magicka DK can keep it up until the cows come home.

I'm not arguing with you there. As I said in my previous comment,I think that if they would buff melee dps, then reflective scales probably wouldn't feel so OP. Its the fact that everyone is casting that is making RS so good.

DeLindsay

Thechemicals wrote: »

Reflective should not reflect light and heavy range attacks. That is all...

And Ultimates, and the Meteor from the Undaunted Dungeon 2pc set. NO Ultimate should be able to be reflected, only blocked to reduce the damage taken from it.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

cote-bmsb16_ESO wrote: »

I was in TB, defending Glade & I looked out over to EP's siege and a lot of DKs flappin & lots of dragons blood. Its just popular, its not OP at all. (@-@)

So is streak/bolt escape, NB stealth skills, blazing shield... Although I agree that RS is a bit too much atm. 4 reflects/cast is the wrong approach, though.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Armitas wrote: »

Suntzu1414 wrote: »

In PVP (now), RS is just being abused.

You have DKs, standing on 2nd levels of keeps...just standing there.
Spamming RS, while protecting other players behind them...(whom are attacking you).

By nerfing this skill... it will make DK players better.
And the game more realistic.


Kill Well
ST

What? RS doesn't protect other players, you can still target them and shoot them. If they can hit you, you can hit them.

Play better? if the DK is doing nothing but reflect stop shooting him. Casting reflect is only harmful if you continue firing at it. No one is forcing you to sit at the bottom of a wall and continually shoot at a DK that is hitting scales over and over.

Yeah we can cast it over and over if we are not doing anything else. And who needs to do anything else when there are people who are willing to shoot themselves in the face over and over at the bottom of a wall knowing that it will be reflected. How is it that the DK needs to play better?

I don't think you understand what Suntzu tries to explain to you. What DK can achieve by exploiting the very core elements of this game is just insane compared to the other classes.

If I get on a wall or even in a small corridor and hide behind a player. If you don't have elevation advantage over me or if you can't get visual angle either, you can't lock any of your single target ranged attacks on me, even with "Tab", because your cursor will target the hitbox from the first player in line unless you actualy get a shooting angle over it.

On the otherhand, I can shoot you from the backline trough that same ally of mine, which you are targeting, because there are no powers that specificaly target allies. So I can abuse that mechanic and shoot at you while you are forced to hit the DK in front of me blocking and/or reflecting every single attacks you do while I stay safe.

Coordinated PvP Guilds use DK blockers right in front of their archers and healers to intercept ennemy players attack cursor and thus deviating shots at them for the single purpose to mitigate most of single target ranged attacks thrown at the group and reflect most of them back at the ennemy team since there is no cap at Reflective Scale. I've seen countless PvP guilds hold Keeps hours because they were exploiting this very core element part of gameplay and because there were no ways to effectively severe the backline holding the frontline up with heals unless they actualy charge in, survive the whole AoE fest and overwhelm the opposing team.

Its also why its very important as a ranged player to always use the hitbox from tougher allies to actualy protect yourself from charge moves and ranged attacks from opposing factions.

NordJitsu

I would either:

1) Keep as is except the DK reflects 90% of the damage and still takes the rest

Or

2) Turn it into a toggle where each reflected projectile drains a certain amount of magicka. This is my preferred choice because it would add some strategic decision-making as to whether you want to be more offensive or more defensive.

Epsilon_Echo

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Coordinated PvP Guilds use DK blockers right in front of their archers and healers to intercept ennemy players attack cursor and thus deviating shots at them for the single purpose to mitigate most of single target ranged attacks thrown at the group and reflect most of them back at the ennemy team since there is no cap at Reflective Scale. I've seen countless PvP guilds hold Keeps hours because they were exploiting this very core element part of gameplay and because there were no ways to effectively severe the backline holding the frontline up with heals unless they actualy charge in, survive the whole AoE fest and overwhelm the opposing team.

O
M
G

How dare they use ... gasp TACTICS.

jpalm1995

NordJitsu wrote: »

I would either:

1) Keep as is except the DK reflects 90% of the damage and still takes the rest

Or

2) Turn it into a toggle where each reflected projectile drains a certain amount of magicka. This is my preferred choice because it would add some strategic decision-making as to whether you want to be more offensive or more defensive.

I like both of your ideas, NordJitsu.

jpalm1995

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Suntzu1414 wrote: »

In PVP (now), RS is just being abused.

You have DKs, standing on 2nd levels of keeps...just standing there.
Spamming RS, while protecting other players behind them...(whom are attacking you).

By nerfing this skill... it will make DK players better.
And the game more realistic.


Kill Well
ST

What? RS doesn't protect other players, you can still target them and shoot them. If they can hit you, you can hit them.

Play better? if the DK is doing nothing but reflect stop shooting him. Casting reflect is only harmful if you continue firing at it. No one is forcing you to sit at the bottom of a wall and continually shoot at a DK that is hitting scales over and over.

Yeah we can cast it over and over if we are not doing anything else. And who needs to do anything else when there are people who are willing to shoot themselves in the face over and over at the bottom of a wall knowing that it will be reflected. How is it that the DK needs to play better?

I don't think you understand what Suntzu tries to explain to you. What DK can achieve by exploiting the very core elements of this game is just insane compared to the other classes.

If I get on a wall or even in a small corridor and hide behind a player. If you don't have elevation advantage over me or if you can't get visual angle either, you can't lock any of your single target ranged attacks on me, even with "Tab", because your cursor will target the hitbox from the first player in line unless you actualy get a shooting angle over it.

On the otherhand, I can shoot you from the backline trough that same ally of mine, which you are targeting, because there are no powers that specificaly target allies. So I can abuse that mechanic and shoot at you while you are forced to hit the DK in front of me blocking and/or reflecting every single attacks you do while I stay safe.

Coordinated PvP Guilds use DK blockers right in front of their archers and healers to intercept ennemy players attack cursor and thus deviating shots at them for the single purpose to mitigate most of single target ranged attacks thrown at the group and reflect most of them back at the ennemy team since there is no cap at Reflective Scale. I've seen countless PvP guilds hold Keeps hours because they were exploiting this very core element part of gameplay and because there were no ways to effectively severe the backline holding the frontline up with heals unless they actualy charge in, survive the whole AoE fest and overwhelm the opposing team.

Its also why its very important as a ranged player to always use the hitbox from tougher allies to actualy protect yourself from charge moves and ranged attacks from opposing factions.

I think this is totally acceptable though. Strategy and organization should trump a bunch of PUGs zerging a keep.

Kraven

Yet another "Save the immortal DK" posts?

Reflect everything at range, make them come into your flaming killing ground that is talons and whip+banner spam!

RS isn't even the issue, DKs are kind of lucky it is taking all of the focus atm should count yourselves lucky and move on. Of course RS change will make an effect but do you really think it will be that large?

Of course if you do believe it will be such a HUGE EARTH SHATTERING change to your entire class, that it will irrevocably and irrefutably completely break the entire DK class! Then doesn't it deserve the change?

AaronMB

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Coordinated PvP Guilds use DK blockers right in front of their archers and healers to intercept ennemy players attack cursor and thus deviating shots at them for the single purpose to mitigate most of single target ranged attacks thrown at the group and reflect most of them back at the ennemy team since there is no cap at Reflective Scale. I've seen countless PvP guilds hold Keeps hours because they were exploiting this very core element part of gameplay and because there were no ways to effectively severe the backline holding the frontline up with heals unless they actualy charge in, survive the whole AoE fest and overwhelm the opposing team.

O
M
G

How dare they use ... gasp TACTICS.

Deep breath there, tiger. It was only an explanation to someone that didn't understand.

TheLaw

Terrible terrible post...I have a headache now. Take it from someone with a V14 DK/NB/Sorc, the nerf is more than fair. You're forgetting the fact that DKs have incredible offence/CC, not just defense.

jpalm1995

Kraven wrote: »

Yet another "Save the immortal DK" posts?

Reflect everything at range, make them come into your flaming killing ground that is talons and whip+banner spam!

RS isn't even the issue, DKs are kind of lucky it is taking all of the focus atm should count yourselves lucky and move on. Of course RS change will make an effect but do you really think it will be that large?

Of course if you do believe it will be such a HUGE EARTH SHATTERING change to your entire class, that it will irrevocably and irrefutably completely break the entire DK class! Then doesn't it deserve the change?

Did you not read my original post? I play a sorcerer and a NB.

Its easy to find something to complain about for every class. Bow users (usually NBs) spam lethal arrow to death, sorcerers BE away before you can kill them (and usually get away), and templars spam blazing shield.

If you really hate DKs so much then tweak your build towards that. Add more stamina for rolling out of talons and popping immovable. Add more stuns so they use more of their stamina. Add melee damage so they can't reflect your attacks.

Thats the beauty of this game. Theres a way to be successful vs any class. The problem is that nobody wants to change up their caster or their arrow spammer build so instead they just cry "OP" when a DK wrecks them with reflective scales.

jpalm1995

TheLaw wrote: »

Terrible terrible post...I have a headache now. Take it from someone with a V14 DK/NB/Sorc, the nerf is more than fair. You're forgetting the fact that DKs have incredible offence/CC, not just defense.

In my opinion, this wouldn't be a problem if there were an all around buff to melee dps. Almost everyone is a caster so thats obviously going to make RS really good. If ZOS would make melee dps viable for PvP then more people would be using melee based attacks, making RS effectively "less powerful".

In regards to your comment about their offense/CC, I agree with you. They have great CC and burst dps. The problem with DKs vs the other two dps classes (sorcerer, nightblade) is that they have no way out of the fight once they are in. If a sorc or NB knows he's going to lose a fight, they will most likely BE or stealth out respectively. If a DK can't pop scales then all he can really do is sit there and die... So if they do nerf RS hard like this then a fair thing to do would be to give the DK some form of escaping a fight. We all know thats not going to happen. I'm not arguing against a nerf, I just think that the nerf can come in a different form so as to not harm the main strength of the class.

Jacques Berge

As an incredibly successful Melee guy, I laugh when DKs pop RS. That said, I think a fair compromise would be make a reflect chance, with no limit, for a longer duration. Not OP but still useful. I've never had a problem with the skill, cause as state before, I like whispering sweet nothings in your ear when I kill you. But, I have a buddy who pretty much quit the game cause wah! His bow build didn't work... When I told him to adapt get a Melee bar in close quarters situations he stubbornly refused saying he wants to be an archer build. To which I responded, well, ok expect to die to every DK with RS... So all of em hahaha.

NordJitsu

RS is far from the only survival skill they have. Let's not forget GDB.

And the comparison to BE is hardly apt since that skill was nerfed into oblivion, twice.

sagitter

It s simple , with this fix you can still hold multiple caster targets, but vs 30 casters for exp you should die. Is still viable vs a lot of casters target but you need to spam it now and spamming it you finish magicka. 1 vs 1 is the same pretty op. and doesn t change anything. I see a good viable fix there and not a proper nerf.