I spent a week and a half talking to various GMs about running trials on my Templar

Epsilon_Echo

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Well as anecdotal as my little study is, I get a lot of people disputing me that the preconceived notions are tied only to elitists. They aren't. These weren't people telling me GTFO noob. It was the prevailing sentiment even from some of the nicest and most helpful people I have spoken to in game.

It's just than an issue consistently appeared when the conversation turned to my class.

Right. Elitists aren't usually like that because 1: they're good enough that they can carry you. They literally just need boots on a pad for a quick run or 2: They are short for a time run, in which case they need someone who knows what they're doing and meeting the minimum requirements just isn't good enough.

The reason why tier two guilds are often such sticklers about it is the misconception that these should be play-as-you-want situations

They're not. Get over it.

If I WANT to bring 11 healers and summoned clanfear as my DPS I should still be able to make it work right? No, its a team based challenge and being on a team means everyone does their part. Alot of people are hitting level cap now who have been playing the entire game "as they want" just fine and can't wrap their heads around the idea that they can't pass a trial by dodge-rolling around and spamming flurry while imagining their toon carving "Z" for Zorro into the Storm Atro's chest.

Now if you can get past my obvious condescension I am not condemning to OP or anyone else who has been having a fun playing experience throughout ESO playing their own way. Just that, as a casual guild leader, it's REALLY hard to trust PUGs who want to be tank with 2200 health and wearing a shadow walker set, or a DPS who is S/B and is whispering you that he has 2300 single target DPS. Or, even worse, a PUG you have completed a Trial with before only to learn now that he was 100% being carried then and that he is enough to single-handedly Titanic your much more casual group than before.

My point is that it's a hard challenge for casuals to get their groups through these challenges (even if it is a cakewalk for elite groups). For casual leaders is easier to stick to generic PUG requirements set by elite groups in the first place. Its an easy standard. Sure there is a chance that the guy on the other side of the keyboard knows what he is doing and is an asset even at 550 dps. But do you really want to take the risk when the last three DPS you picked up started their execute spam at 75% on the Stone Atro?

Joy_Division

itsBishop wrote: »

You're right that the math doesn't lie, but 450 dps would make for an excruciatingly frustrating run and such a group would be unlikely to survive the Mage's burn phase due to strain on healers. Hence the often quoted ~750+ number as a minimum for an effective run.

I'm curious to hear from those in these second- and third-wave PvE guilds focused on completing Hel Ra/AA at the moment about what numbers their members are doing. Asking for 750+ DPS out of players doesn't seem elitist in my mind; hell Templars can do that with a crushing shock build.

I think 750+ is harder to reach than you think, especially for that fight. If a Templar could easily and consistently get that simply by equipping 1 skill, then threads like this would not exist.

Epsilon_Echo

Joy_Division wrote: »

itsBishop wrote: »

You're right that the math doesn't lie, but 450 dps would make for an excruciatingly frustrating run and such a group would be unlikely to survive the Mage's burn phase due to strain on healers. Hence the often quoted ~750+ number as a minimum for an effective run.

I'm curious to hear from those in these second- and third-wave PvE guilds focused on completing Hel Ra/AA at the moment about what numbers their members are doing. Asking for 750+ DPS out of players doesn't seem elitist in my mind; hell Templars can do that with a crushing shock build.

I think 750+ is harder to reach than you think, especially for that fight. If a Templar could easily and consistently get that simply by equipping 1 skill, then threads like this would not exist.

Yes and no.

For a magic build Crushing shock + scalding rune is good for 450-550 DPS depending on Spell DMG/Crit/Mag pool. Its that missing 200 DPS thats hard to get to/past. I havn't tried it on my temp so everything else is speculation but perhaps Sunfire and Blazing spear may make the difference....

Now I'm getting the urge to go test... I'll see what I can come up with.

itsBishop

Joy_Division wrote: »

itsBishop wrote: »

You're right that the math doesn't lie, but 450 dps would make for an excruciatingly frustrating run and such a group would be unlikely to survive the Mage's burn phase due to strain on healers. Hence the often quoted ~750+ number as a minimum for an effective run.

I'm curious to hear from those in these second- and third-wave PvE guilds focused on completing Hel Ra/AA at the moment about what numbers their members are doing. Asking for 750+ DPS out of players doesn't seem elitist in my mind; hell Templars can do that with a crushing shock build.

I think 750+ is harder to reach than you think, especially for that fight. If a Templar could easily and consistently get that simply by equipping 1 skill, then threads like this would not exist.

Not sure what fight you think I'm referring to, but it doesn't really matter. If you specc for weapon damage and weave light attacks with crushing shock, ~750 is no problem for most fights in AA. Throw in a vamp bane for the dot into that rotation and it's even easier. It's pushing that closer to 1k that is difficult.

TehMagnus

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

itsBishop wrote: »

You're right that the math doesn't lie, but 450 dps would make for an excruciatingly frustrating run and such a group would be unlikely to survive the Mage's burn phase due to strain on healers. Hence the often quoted ~750+ number as a minimum for an effective run.

I'm curious to hear from those in these second- and third-wave PvE guilds focused on completing Hel Ra/AA at the moment about what numbers their members are doing. Asking for 750+ DPS out of players doesn't seem elitist in my mind; hell Templars can do that with a crushing shock build.

I think 750+ is harder to reach than you think, especially for that fight. If a Templar could easily and consistently get that simply by equipping 1 skill, then threads like this would not exist.

Yes and no.

For a magic build Crushing shock + scalding rune is good for 450-550 DPS depending on Spell DMG/Crit/Mag pool. Its that missing 200 DPS thats hard to get to/past. I havn't tried it on my temp so everything else is speculation but perhaps Sunfire and Blazing spear may make the difference....

Now I'm getting the urge to go test... I'll see what I can come up with.

Templar in my raid guild pulls 1900 DPS on first boss, 1300 on 2nd, 1100 on 3rd and 950-1k on the mage using crushing shock. The problem is, those templars almost never get to play DPS because people don't believe it untill they see it (I know I didn't).

That being said, I'd take a templar DPS for a weekly run (and a "fun" run if I did those), I wouldn't take one for a speed run since DKs and NBs in the party where pulling more dps than the templar.

Some things are funny though:
- The guy who says he wants to take a sorc or a DK tank but not a Templar (when templars are amongst the best tanks in the game, better than DKs in some instances an def better than sorcs in most if not all).
- 650 HPS is really not hard with correct setup for a healer.

Regarding Templar DPS and this is just my opinion: I believe it's a waste which is why it's only ok for casual runs. Templars are the best healers in game. They are excellent tanks and the skills/ultis that make them excellent tanks and healers/supports are gone to utter waste when you make them DPS. Moreover, at equal skill, a DK will always pull more DPS than a templar and so will a NB so it's a waste to trade a DK and his DPS or a NB and his continuous veils of blades for a templar who just picked the wrong class when he began the game (why would you pick a healing class if you wanted to DPS? I mean yeah ok "Play as you want", but still, just look at the skills the class has to offer...).

In my opinion, you can tank almost everything in the game in light armor. That being said, it is wiser to use an addon like Alpha tools (to switch gear on the fly) and get yourself a Heavy Armor set for the Axes in AA during the Mage's fight and to tank Hel Ra's last boss. Sure you won't get one shot by their attacks in your current setup but you'll be taking lots more dmg in light armor which stresses the healers, makes them use more magicka to heal you and is translated by less heals for the rest of the party.

manny254

magnusnet wrote: »

Moreover, at equal skill, a DK will always pull more DPS than a templar and so will a NB so it's a waste to trade a DK and his DPS or a NB and his continuous veils of blades for a templar who just picked the wrong class when he began the game (why would you pick a healing class if you wanted to DPS? I mean yeah ok "Play as you want", but still, just look at the skills the class has to offer...).

Here in lies the problem. As much as I hate to admit it you are right, but I do have some counter arguments about the games design. If templars are the healer class then DK is the tank class. So why is the tank class one of the best at dps in the game? Even if other classes can tank well or even better DK is still the tank class.

Pmarsico9

manny254 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Moreover, at equal skill, a DK will always pull more DPS than a templar and so will a NB so it's a waste to trade a DK and his DPS or a NB and his continuous veils of blades for a templar who just picked the wrong class when he began the game (why would you pick a healing class if you wanted to DPS? I mean yeah ok "Play as you want", but still, just look at the skills the class has to offer...).

Here in lies the problem. As much as I hate to admit it you are right, but I do have some counter arguments about the games design. If templars are the healer class then DK is the tank class. So why is the tank class one of the best at dps in the game? Even if other classes can tank well or even better DK is still the tank class.

That's the way it is. Which is why Templars are amazing in PVP, as healers, and pretty decent as tanks (although many guilds prefer DKs with reliable AoE CC since tanking in this game is literally a single debuff) but completely broken as viable DPS for PVE. There should be no "ideal" in regards to DPS just as there shouldn't be with healing.

Just making classes equal doesn't mean making them exactly the same. Which is a card people like to play. "If everybody could do everything equally they'd all be the same class."

They'd have a leg to stand on if support was needed at all. It's not. Which is why Sorcs are losing slots, too. You need maybe one for Negate.

Cody

its clear these trials were only made for the top best players with min/max builds. That would be fine... if the best builds did not force players to put on a full set of robes and dawn a staff. Im not saying "play how you want" should mean "everything works" but c'mon, there is no reason for only 1-2 kinds of builds being able to get the top scores. (and tbh, there is no logical explination for a person in a dress to be a tank, but thats a discussion for another thread)

timidobserver

Cody wrote: »

its clear these trials were only made for the top best players with min/max builds. That would be fine... if the best builds did not force players to put on a full set of robes and dawn a staff. Im not saying "play how you want" should mean "everything works" but c'mon, there is no reason for only 1-2 kinds of builds being able to get the top scores. (and tbh, there is no logical explination for a person in a dress to be a tank, but thats a discussion for another thread)

This isn't true. The only thing that you absolutely have to wear robes and staff for is healing. There are adequate/passable non-staff, non-light armor builds for most of the classes now.

TehMagnus

manny254 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Moreover, at equal skill, a DK will always pull more DPS than a templar and so will a NB so it's a waste to trade a DK and his DPS or a NB and his continuous veils of blades for a templar who just picked the wrong class when he began the game (why would you pick a healing class if you wanted to DPS? I mean yeah ok "Play as you want", but still, just look at the skills the class has to offer...).

Here in lies the problem. As much as I hate to admit it you are right, but I do have some counter arguments about the games design. If templars are the healer class then DK is the tank class. So why is the tank class one of the best at dps in the game? Even if other classes can tank well or even better DK is still the tank class.

Thing is, you don't actually need any of the DK skills to tank effectively as a DK. The only really usefull/livesaver comob it has is Igneous shield + Green Dragon blood which instantly returns you ~42% of your missing health. For the rest, as long as you have Heavy Armor, board & shield & Defensive posture, you don't really need anything else (Cinder storm as well but meh). It's almost the same for templar tanks, as long as you have Blazing Shield and a good armor, you don't really need anything else to tank.

The difference between DK and Templar Damage skills is that DKS have pure damage DoTs that have a good synergy with each other (engulfing + unstable) wereas templars do damage but also apply debuffs on enemies or buffs on allies at the same time.

In my opinion, Arena is a perfect example of this, healers have op skills that save lives, they can put bubbles on sorcs on stage 8, a big nova well placed on stage 9 (pre nerf) when you had 15 undead running around near the tank + the boss + the two janycents was a life saver, their spear attack is also very good for interrupting or CCing adds & bosses.

TLDR and since I'm going a bit off topic: DKs are very good tanks & have a few skills that help increase their DPS above others wereas templars's skills have more of a "support" class feel.

I've no doubt that the damage morphs of templars skills will eventually be slightly buffed in Zenimax's quest for balance .

TehMagnus

timidobserver wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

its clear these trials were only made for the top best players with min/max builds. That would be fine... if the best builds did not force players to put on a full set of robes and dawn a staff. Im not saying "play how you want" should mean "everything works" but c'mon, there is no reason for only 1-2 kinds of builds being able to get the top scores. (and tbh, there is no logical explination for a person in a dress to be a tank, but thats a discussion for another thread)

This isn't true. The only thing that you absolutely have to wear robes and staff for is healing. There are adequate/passable non-staff, non-light armor builds for most of the classes now.

Problem as always is: Top players have FOM builds and do speed runs and clear content first. Then the other players, even though they prolly know that other types of builds and tactics can do it, will prefer to run with people that try to emulate those "top players" because it's the safe thing to do.

That's where the difference between people who just clear content for fun and people who clear content to beat the challenge as fast and as best as possible in order to also get on those leaderboards.

I see many people always complaining about being left out from runs because they don't have "standard" builds. All I can tell you is to look harder for casual guilds that are running trials. You might not always succeed at clearing the trials, but it's likely they won't force you or reject you just because you're trying something new or because you don't meet their standards.

Erock25

What I want to know is what was up with that group saying they required a DK or Sorc tank???? Sorc tanks are really sought after or was this guild just misinformed?

Shunravi

Erock25 wrote: »

What I want to know is what was up with that group saying they required a DK or Sorc tank???? Sorc tanks are really sought after or was this guild just misinformed?

That honestly made me laugh. A sorc tank over a templar? I had never heard that one before.

Pmarsico9

Erock25 wrote: »

What I want to know is what was up with that group saying they required a DK or Sorc tank???? Sorc tanks are really sought after or was this guild just misinformed?

I think it's for Restraining Prison for AoE CC and Streak for the kiting potential.

I didn't really understand it either, this is all the sense I can make of it. Sorcs can effectively stay at max ranged and kite-tank better than any other class. Which can be incredibly powerful, I run with one in Vets and DSA and as that group's healer, I've seen him go for over a minute on bosses without taking a hit using Inner Rage and Streak. And the best type of mitigation is inarguably not getting hit at all.

Shunravi

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

What I want to know is what was up with that group saying they required a DK or Sorc tank???? Sorc tanks are really sought after or was this guild just misinformed?

I think it's for Restraining Prison for AoE CC and Streak for the kiting potential.

I didn't really understand it either, this is all the sense I can make of it. Sorcs can effectively stay at max ranged and kite-tank better than any other class. Which can be incredibly powerful, I run with one in Vets and DSA and as that group's healer, I've seen him go for over a minute on bosses without taking a hit using Inner Rage and Streak. And the best type of mitigation is inarguably not getting hit at all.

That is why I like Nightblade tanks.

People put to much stock in talons and prison. Some of the best tanks I know don't even use roots and stuns.

I actually smirk a bit when I see a DK tank trying to lock down all of the mobs in a pull with talons. It's even worse when he tries taunting them all.

yodased

cinder storm > talons

eserras7b16_ESO

Well light armour tanking is indeed a nice way to go but it's dangerous, difficult, not so safe, etc. Look it like a way to AoE DPS while tanking wich in some situations it's just what you need. (Speaking for Templars now) But if you want to be a resourcefull Tank, then you need to also have your Heavy armour set ready for some boss fights (Trials specialy)

Hypertionb14_ESO

im sorry to say, but endgame like trials or Vet DSA, it is less about how YOU want to play and how you are NEEDED to play..

a Templar is generally the only healers wanted, that role is your best bet, having some DPS thrown in is also really good.

pure DPS templars are not common, magicka builds are subpar even to Sorcerers and the only way to pull good dps as a templar is to run stamina builds currently.

Templar tanks are just like all other tanks, with the class unique bonus of being able to heal allies as well as themselves being unique to them.

Played smart the class can fill any role more so than any other class, tho this is purely because no other class has the healing ability built in that templars have that make them the top teir healers to have for your raid.

timidobserver

magnusnet wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

its clear these trials were only made for the top best players with min/max builds. That would be fine... if the best builds did not force players to put on a full set of robes and dawn a staff. Im not saying "play how you want" should mean "everything works" but c'mon, there is no reason for only 1-2 kinds of builds being able to get the top scores. (and tbh, there is no logical explination for a person in a dress to be a tank, but thats a discussion for another thread)

This isn't true. The only thing that you absolutely have to wear robes and staff for is healing. There are adequate/passable non-staff, non-light armor builds for most of the classes now.

Problem as always is: Top players have FOM builds and do speed runs and clear content first. Then the other players, even though they prolly know that other types of builds and tactics can do it, will prefer to run with people that try to emulate those "top players" because it's the safe thing to do.

That's where the difference between people who just clear content for fun and people who clear content to beat the challenge as fast and as best as possible in order to also get on those leaderboards.

I see many people always complaining about being left out from runs because they don't have "standard" builds. All I can tell you is to look harder for casual guilds that are running trials. You might not always succeed at clearing the trials, but it's likely they won't force you or reject you just because you're trying something new or because you don't meet their standards.

Yeh, this is true, which is why I recommended that the OP learn how to do what is perceived to work, gain some credibility with whoever he runs with, and then start running whatever setup he can make work.

Once people know you as a excellent player, they won't really care what you run. However, when you are an unknown, they will usually expect you to be running something that they know and understand to work.

There is nothing that ZOS can do to change this. In most MMOs one of two things will happen. In game with an open Addon API, people will care less about your gear and more about your performance. In games with a closed Addon API or no Addons, people will pay more attention to your spec.

BugCollector

JLB wrote: »

Breathe of Life is the only reason why Templars have 2 spots in a raid. Period.

If they swapped Rushed Ceremony with Blessing of Protection, the only spot you could aim as a Templar would be tank.
And even then, you still be a 2nd option tank.

I think it's better to get @ZOS to fix DPS & Resource Sustain of Templars once and for all, and then start talking about opening things like Breathe of Life to other classes.

Yeah, if other classes can have our superspell, we should have Green Dragon Blood, Bolt Escape and Funnel Health.

Artemiisia

Pmarsico9, play as you want is perfectly fine, im just thinking why would 11 other people sacrifice the chance of beating trails, due to your play style done fit theirs?

Why should they adjust to your play style, when you dont wanna adjust to theirs?

Artemiisia

Cuyler wrote: »

I sure can relate. I had grand dreams of being a sorcerer healer but after being shot down by multiple pug leaders I eventually went full dps. Now sorcerers even get passed over for NBs and DKs for dps. Just can't win lol

Anyways I can agree that the ones looking for 700+ dps are looking for maxers for speed runs. The groups who are semi-casual/hardcore can take a minimum of 500 dps as that is all that is really required for Hel ra or AA.

I heal as a sorcerer in AA from time to time, 2nd and last boss, when it hits 30% to keep healing springs and negate up.

done AA in 9mins and Hel Ra in 11m

xaraan

I don't think most people realize that groups running the trials all the time are going to want min/max build of the week because they aren't running them to have fun, but to grind out a good time and get loot. (Not saying you can't do both, but one is a bigger concern for them than the other). This means they often aren't playing to the mechanics and stacking and burning and looking for certain roles to fit within that playstyle.

Your tank playstyle works fine for 99% of the game, but they are right that it leaves a margin of error. If you miss recasting something and go down because of it, it can cause everyone to wipe when you are talking high end stuff like trials or vet arena. Same reason they want templar healers - since they aren't playing the mechanics and avoiding the damage, they need someone that can spam stuff like breath of life to keep them alive.

Sublime

I'm 62 points in Magicka but everybody keeps telling me I should put some in HP. Seems like there are people with different opinions.

lolo_01b16_ESO

@Sublime‌ you survive in trials, vet dsa and vet dungeons with that build? I'm curious what I can lern from you.
Or are you an Imperial with emperor buff or some health enchantmens?

Sublime

I can easily survive all vet dungs, except COA, but I think it should be doable with a bit more training. VDSA will be a bit harder and I'll certainly need stage specific skills for a no death run, same for trials. But after like 50 runs it should all be doable (boundless storm + ward helps a lot), and no I'm not using any AvA buffs, nor have I ever been emp. I'm playing an altmer with magicka enchants, the only bonus HP I get is from Structured Entropy (+% Max HP while slotted) and blue food buffs.

But I doubt any normal person would invite me to a trial run with that build.
I'm however paitent and wait for the removal of the softcaps. :P

I was however mainly referring to OP stating that some People told him to put more points into Magicka, which I would have loved to hear but unfortunately never get to. xD

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Swapping Breath of life with combat prayer would be considered a huge templar nerf.

If this is done before fixing templar DPS, there would really be no reason to include templars in anything. You could just run all DKs for everything. There are plenty of trials/DSA groups that run all DKs with a templar healer. This is mainly for breath of life. Giving breath of life to everyone would remove the need to use templars at all, not encourage it.

This nerf would also be horrible for templars in PvP.

• Templar DPS needs a fix. Some abilities hit like cotton balls and have unreasonable cast times or global cooldowns.
• Templar magicka management needs to be looked at since the early restoring spirit nerf. This would help heavy armor templars.

But if we take every unique ability and give it to all classes, then the only difference between classes becomes a matter of particle effects. This leads to boring gameplay.

Morshire

Does anyone realize that there are currently 3 discussions in which someone is asking to make other healers equal to Templar healing by doing something involving BoL? (That are active and people are talking in) I actually was following this one because, while I am just fine with my V2 Templar, I could see the validity of some of the early changes. Yet no matter how the Templar discussions start, the same themes always appear, "BoL needs to be given to all" or some variation of that.

I am dumbfounded that a game as good as ESO, and some of the best fan/player base in the MMO realms, has dwindled to nothing more than Templar hating conversations. (Extreme sarcasm here, but some of you agree because I have read the posts) 85% of the people who I have read actually have intellectual properties and are extremely insightful in game play or the mechanics, yet they are spending 99% of there time defending some form of the Templar build.

Epsilon_Echo - hats off for how you initially tried to start this, but I am going to move to somewhere that the conversation leaves Templar builds/skills alone and people actually want to discuss the game, not what ZoS needs to do to make them a better player.

To all the others - (I am actually not going to get banned yet) as smart or insightful as you all seem to be, jumping onto these forums, I was hoping to find people, just like you (you hit the mark there) who could share some knowledge to enhance my game play or help me sort through some of the more complicated aspects of the game. 20+ discussions in and all I have found, no matter how the thread starts, KILL TEMPLARS. Since I play a Templar tank V2 who would rather die than use my healing skills (soul gems are cheap) I beg you, all of you, can we stop discussing what you cannot do (because my opinion is it is more the player, not the game that is frustrating you) and please get to some discussions about how to make the DK DPS, Templar tank, Sorc healer / NB DPS off tank group work? (Or something like that you know)

Marthenil

With the stamina buffs, Templars can do all three roles. You can achieve comparable DPS to NBs and Sorcs, only surpassed by (well, surprise, DKs).

As for tanking, Templars are hands down the best tanks in my opinion, in terms of mitigation. This is debatable, of course, since the difference with DKs is small, but compared to DKs they lose some extra block dmg reduction but gain an awesome shield that can come in handy in many situations. That is assuming you are already hardcapped on Armor, which you should, if you want to be taken seriously and want to tank any form of meaningful trials, (HINT: Hel Ra and AA doesn't count).


Well, I don't think we need to discuss healing

EDIT: As for OP's methodology in tanking, I am a NB tank. I used to roll magicka and hardcap my armor through Bone Shield and Immovable. It is indeed too much room for error. If for whatever reason you get hit without the buffs up, you will die a horrible death, especially in SO. As such, it's better to have it already hard capped and focus your resources on group utility than having to rely on those buffs. Sure, your DPS is less, but you are not a DPS in the end, you are a tank.

EDIT2 :

Artemiisia wrote: »

Pmarsico9, play as you want is perfectly fine, im just thinking why would 11 other people sacrifice the chance of beating trails, due to your play style done fit theirs?

Why should they adjust to your play style, when you dont wanna adjust to theirs?

This is the bottom line of every group scenario, unless agreed otherwise. You are expected to play your character at its best. Sure, I'd love to DPS in heavy armor, but I know it's just not viable. You have to adapt to your group's demands. Different people have different demands.
Your group is as strong as the weakest member, in the end.

Khivas_Carrick

I've been beaten by a dk in single target dps once ever since I hit endgame a couple of months ago. The only classes to ever top me in trials and vet dungeons and pledges have been a Sorc mage and Nightblades.

You guys are hating on DKs way too much in PvE lol