Impenetrable Trait Change

veakal

I wanted to discuss the possibility of altering the Impenetrable Trait to mitigating critical strike damage rather than critical strike chance. This is primarily because in its current state (in PVP especially) the impenetrable trait is completely removing the play-ability of certain skills and builds, rather than altering these builds and skills slightly so that they become viable and balanced in PVP.

For instance:

In its current state, stacking the impenetrable trait on Armor (as the vast majority of players are doing in PVP) is reducing the critical strike chance by 50 - 70% which makes it practically impossible for critical strikes to occur at all.

Which I can understand because if they did occur to the rate that some builds allow in PVE and with the same level of power that some critical strikes have, then PVP would be much less fun and long lasting and anyone with super high crit chance would faceroll all they encounter into puddles of mush and frustration.

However this lack of crit chance due to the impenetrable trait still does completely remove the utility of certain skills and builds such as Critical Surge Sorcerers and Magelight users and it makes the precise trait worthless etc... and instead of being able to seamlessly swap between PVE and PVP like ESO boasts with their "ultra customizable and freedom based skill system"; you now must completely change your tactics and play style to fit the very particular threshold that this PVP trait demands.

However, if they were to alter the impenetrable trait to mitigate 50-70% of Crit Damage instead, then the crit based builds and skills would still work and be viable in PVP but not overpowered. Crit strikes could still occur as often as usual but they wouldn't pack so much of a punch that they disrupt the balance of PVP.

Stx

I agree, and it makes a lot more sense for Impen to work that way.

I mean what are you giving up in order to basically be immune to critical hits? 100 stat points? Its crazy.

guybrushtb16_ESO

veakal wrote: »

However, if they were to alter the impenetrable trait to mitigate 50-70% of Crit Damage instead, then the crit based builds and skills would still work and be viable in PVP but not overpowered. Crit strikes could still occur as often as usual but they wouldn't pack so much of a punch that they disrupt the balance of PVP.

I agree on principle that practically disabling crit passsively at an insanely low opportunity cost just feels weird, the game basically tells you "use this for pvp and nothing else".

Regardless, just having it function at 50% would still be a considerable boost to damage in pvp, a full crit build will do ~20% more then what they do now. Maybe the full impen bonus, 70% converted to damage reduction would serve better.

But what I really would have liked to see is more specialization across the board, because as it is now, it's relatively easy to hit softcap on most of the stats you care for, so running around at capped spell damage, capped magicka, capped armor and good health still comes to easy. It's likely that this is an intended effect in order to ease building a bit so that the gap between power gamers and casuals gets closer, but for me personally it still feels a bit lacking.

Kego

If this trait is changed, than Critical Chances should get a Hard Cap around maximum 50%.
Problem currently is, if you want a high crit chance, you can come easily to 60-70% Crit Chance, add a Crit Potion and you are close to 100%.

Impenetrable currently works against high stacking in Crit but negates all Crit Chances below 50%.

I think the Trait is okay but we need more other Traits that are appealing in PvP. What about a Trait that lowers incoming AOE DMG for 10%?

You could go all in and gain 70% AOE DMG reduction but you can be massive critted from Singletarget Builds.

You could go as it is and you will be destroyed by AOE but immun to crits.

Or you go 50:50 for 40(30)% Crit Reduction and 30(40)% AOE DMG Reduction.

Francescolg

Nope, the amount of melee crit rate and the amount of pve-items crit rate (8% armor bonus) have gone out of control, they are by far too high..!
I run with 5-impenetrable/5 warlock set items (as many ppl do) and I still get heavy burst dmg inc, especially from NBs (1500+ aimed shot - just the first attack, followed by the next crit + attacks in between). You alread are as good as chanceless vs some attack-ways..

And chars already (!) are somethat squishy. Ultimates doing to much dmg and still beeing spammed, too much heal-debuff spells everybody is using, +high spell/armorpenetration,, etc. etc. When the "only way of making pvp more interesting" is by lowering the dmg-numbers..!

Know what, 80% of the players I know has left this game due to unplayability and certain classes running around with too much crit, while magic classes do not get that much love and many players feel that this is a pure melee-centered game. Compared to other games, even playing a healer isn't so much fun, you can not "rock" and heal your group whenever needed, you are just part of the "utility", you can't even move the group party frame (addons often buggy..).
Maybe you want a game just made out of NBs and DKs running around with 100+% melee crit, I don't know! That is how it feels. Since release, DKs rock (if played right) and melees are getting buffed patch per patch + bow (buffed again in the last patch..). Even that isn't enough.. now they get stamina-reggen, etc. While light armor is beeing slightly nurfed.
People need to understand that not every piece of armor is unpenetrable, given that many ppl prefer the warlock set. Second, and because of that, chances for crit-hits are still high and crits shouls be "something special", instead go for the right build and melees are far above 50% crit.

IMO, crit should be capped at 25-50%, nothing else! Remember the mages in an mmorpg before with a crit + 300% crit bonus dmg buff (combustion or how is was named), that ruined a game! I don't call out names..!

veakal

But if crit damage is lowered by up to 70% then it doesn't really matter how high the crit chance is because the crits will be much much less effective... yet still yield the utility that certain skills depend on. If someone has given up 3 spots on their skill bar (plus particular armor sets, buffs and mudus choices) to build their playstyle around a particular crit based utility, then they can crit as much as they like in my opinion.

Lowering the crit damage up to 70% means that crits (regardless of how many occur) are not going to absolutely destroy any target, they are just going to be a moderate boost in damage at the sacrifice of many other possible utilitites or playstyles.

eliisra

I would be perfectly fine if it only mitigated 30-35% of critical dmg taken (if you're stacked on the trait that is).

Current design is horrible, mainly because you're not getting any protection against auto crits. Someone with 5+ impen shouldn't be taking 2k from Lethal Arrow, for example. It's ridiculous.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

veakal wrote: »

I wanted to discuss the possibility of altering the Impenetrable Trait to mitigating critical strike damage rather than critical strike chance. This is primarily because in its current state (in PVP especially) the impenetrable trait is completely removing the play-ability of certain skills and builds, rather than altering these builds and skills slightly so that they become viable and balanced in PVP.

For instance:

In its current state, stacking the impenetrable trait on Armor (as the vast majority of players are doing in PVP) is reducing the critical strike chance by 50 - 70% which makes it practically impossible for critical strikes to occur at all.

Which I can understand because if they did occur to the rate that some builds allow in PVE and with the same level of power that some critical strikes have, then PVP would be much less fun and long lasting and anyone with super high crit chance would faceroll all they encounter into puddles of mush and frustration.

However this lack of crit chance due to the impenetrable trait still does completely remove the utility of certain skills and builds such as Critical Surge Sorcerers and Magelight users and it makes the precise trait worthless etc... and instead of being able to seamlessly swap between PVE and PVP like ESO boasts with their "ultra customizable and freedom based skill system"; you now must completely change your tactics and play style to fit the very particular threshold that this PVP trait demands.

However, if they were to alter the impenetrable trait to mitigate 50-70% of Crit Damage instead, then the crit based builds and skills would still work and be viable in PVP but not overpowered. Crit strikes could still occur as often as usual but they wouldn't pack so much of a punch that they disrupt the balance of PVP.

Here is the problem with changing how impen works. Even if crit damage was reduced by 99% so it was essentially reg damage it would still be a huge advantage because of the ultimate system. Crit builds gain much much more ult from all the crits, so even with the same damage if your doing 80% crits it would be worth it just to drop more ults than anyone non crit build . That's not even taking into account the stupidly high base crit chance's increase on your DPs.. looks to me that they implemented impen this way so crit is not the only competitive build.

veakal

I understand what you're saying, although I still think that if you develop an entire build around crit utility - which is taking up the majority of your skill bar to execute -then I don't understand why having certain advantages (such as higher ultimate gain) is a problem... every build has its advantages. Surely, there is a better way of balancing those advantages than practically removing crits from PVP and rendering all crit based builds useless...

Mojomonkeyman

Crit Surge and Magelight are some of the most poor & boring implemented skills in my opinion. How much fun is it to setup your bar in a way that you have just to press one button for damage and still go overkill due to poor design (critsurge vamp/impuls or critsurge shard/overload sorc i.e.)?

Very poor playsyle and build that is still far too effective and would be even more with changes to impen.

Impen is the lesser evil! Crit heavy builds are in most cases lamer builds with just 1 or 2 active buttons thanks to design of magelight and other skills, please never reinvente those, thanks.

GwaynLoki

Low time-to-kill is a bane in modern RPGs and reducing skill requirements thats my opinion. If you want to change impen I am fine with it but not when it further reduces ttk. I already find it ridiculous that people can get easy kills on the majority of players if they strike from stealth. You should get an advantage in the following fight, but it shouldn't be an instant win in 8 out of 10 cases. That's just a cheap way to reward people who are afraid of taking on others in a fight (not a fair fight, I am talking about a fight in general).

ZoM_Head

veakal wrote: »

I wanted to discuss the possibility of altering the Impenetrable Trait to mitigating critical strike damage rather than critical strike chance. This is primarily because in its current state (in PVP especially) the impenetrable trait is completely removing the play-ability of certain skills and builds, rather than altering these builds and skills slightly so that they become viable and balanced in PVP.

For instance:

In its current state, stacking the impenetrable trait on Armor (as the vast majority of players are doing in PVP) is reducing the critical strike chance by 50 - 70% which makes it practically impossible for critical strikes to occur at all.

Which I can understand because if they did occur to the rate that some builds allow in PVE and with the same level of power that some critical strikes have, then PVP would be much less fun and long lasting and anyone with super high crit chance would faceroll all they encounter into puddles of mush and frustration.

However this lack of crit chance due to the impenetrable trait still does completely remove the utility of certain skills and builds such as Critical Surge Sorcerers and Magelight users and it makes the precise trait worthless etc... and instead of being able to seamlessly swap between PVE and PVP like ESO boasts with their "ultra customizable and freedom based skill system"; you now must completely change your tactics and play style to fit the very particular threshold that this PVP trait demands.

However, if they were to alter the impenetrable trait to mitigate 50-70% of Crit Damage instead, then the crit based builds and skills would still work and be viable in PVP but not overpowered. Crit strikes could still occur as often as usual but they wouldn't pack so much of a punch that they disrupt the balance of PVP.

When ESO first launched, i thought impenetrable was to reduce the crit damge taken in pvp, but when i found out one can almost completely resist crits in pvp....made me reroll 2 characters (back then it costed 100g per skill point, hello 20K x 2 respects) and make all new gear....

Varicite

I've often said the same as the OP, so I definitely agree that the extremely low investment of Impenetrable gear should not negate 80% crit entirely (for those who stack it fully).

If not this, at least lower the amount of Impenetrable granted by small armor pieces.

Exactly what reason is there for Impenetrable to be the only trait not to be diminished on small armor pieces? Seems like a huge oversight to me.

CapuchinSeven

Honestly guys, I know it sucks. I KNOW trust me, one of my main builds is a full medium PVP build and Impenetrable stucks BUT...

Low TTK's because of super high never ending crits are never fun, at least not for me and we already have that with fast stealth kills but open fights take longer. That's what I like about this game, fast stealth kills but if you screw it up you're in for a longer fight.

I went off TOR the day the TTK dropped to 5 seconds.

Erock25

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Honestly guys, I know it sucks. I KNOW trust me, one of my main builds is a full medium PVP build and Impenetrable stucks BUT...

Low TTK's because of super high never ending crits are never fun, at least not for me and we already have that with fast stealth kills but open fights take longer. That's what I like about this game, fast stealth kills but if you screw it up you're in for a longer fight.

I went off TOR the day the TTK dropped to 5 seconds.

But changing Impenetrable to reduce critical bonus dmg, which is what the OP is asking for, instead of lowering crit rating would not lower the TTK at all.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Honestly guys, I know it sucks. I KNOW trust me, one of my main builds is a full medium PVP build and Impenetrable stucks BUT...

Low TTK's because of super high never ending crits are never fun, at least not for me and we already have that with fast stealth kills but open fights take longer. That's what I like about this game, fast stealth kills but if you screw it up you're in for a longer fight.

I went off TOR the day the TTK dropped to 5 seconds.

Stealth kills are still possible even with impenetrable builds because when you deal a sneak attack you get an increased 100% critical chance on top of your current critical chance modifier. Someone with 70% critical chance will completely ignore Impenetrable trait on first strike while stealthed.

If you now reduce the bonus damage done by critical strikes, you would not only greatly reduce damage done by any Sneak attacks done to you, you would still reduce critical damage done in combat by a huge marging and it would actualy make more builds viable for PvP.

So for me I'm all for the a change to impenetrable trait from a critical chance reduction to a critical damage mitigation.

Kosar

if you upgrade pieces to yellow then you only need 3 pieces of impen which opens up 2 slots to do more with.... just fyi to those of you running 5 pieces.

personally, this crit negation is a breath of fresh air form literally EVERY other PvP game out there. the reason this even exists in this game is to avoid the min/max crit guys that plague every game and force builds into pigeon holes.

instead of crying about making this game like very other game (by changing impen), why not learn the system and celebrate it's differences that actually allow you to choose different skills and stats instead of playing the same exact way we have been for 20 years?

Varicite

Kosar wrote: »

if you upgrade pieces to yellow then you only need 3 pieces of impen which opens up 2 slots to do more with.... just fyi to those of you running 5 pieces.

personally, this crit negation is a breath of fresh air form literally EVERY other PvP game out there. the reason this even exists in this game is to avoid the min/max crit guys that plague every game and force builds into pigeon holes.

instead of crying about making this game like very other game (by changing impen), why not learn the system and celebrate it's differences that actually allow you to choose different skills and stats instead of playing the same exact way we have been for 20 years?

Because it completely neuters a style of playing, a large amount of passives, and a few active skills for an almost non-existent opportunity cost.

You get too much for too little investment w/ Impenetrable.

That's why.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Kosar wrote: »

if you upgrade pieces to yellow then you only need 3 pieces of impen which opens up 2 slots to do more with.... just fyi to those of you running 5 pieces.

personally, this crit negation is a breath of fresh air form literally EVERY other PvP game out there. the reason this even exists in this game is to avoid the min/max crit guys that plague every game and force builds into pigeon holes.

instead of crying about making this game like very other game (by changing impen), why not learn the system and celebrate it's differences that actually allow you to choose different skills and stats instead of playing the same exact way we have been for 20 years?

That's where you don't get it,

Right now, it is possible to completely negate impenetrable with sneak attacks if your crit chance is high enough. So it does absolutely nothing against burst builds which initiate you in combat while stealthed.

If I decide to go against you with a friend just to gank you, that bonus won't help you at all if our crit chance is high enough. You will still get 2 shotted before you even get a glance at us.

Turning impenetrable into crit damage mitigation would automaticaly reduce damage from sneak attacks, and thus prevent you from getting bursted down initialy while still greatly reducing damage from crits for you to barely see the difference.

There is nothing to celebrate in this game, NBs other than Resto Staff gets decimated in prologiated fights, so do sorcerers because half of both classes abilities to heal themself get reduced to 0 because those rely either on Kills, Crits or Damage done which gets completely negated by shields, block and impenetrable. Or you can go with a Templar or a Dragonknight, in the first case you will get decent surviability but you will also end OoM very quickly, or you pidgeonhole yourself to a Shield/Staff DK, and beat the crap out of anything around you that isn't DK, because you know your most powerfull healing ability gets buffed while you go in PvP and if you use Syrabane + Dragonscale ennemies are forced to go in melee range with you and all you have to do is to hold block and cast flame lashes and standart of might on anything around yourself.

Changing Impenetrable fonction is the first way to make more builds viable in PvP.

Helluin

I absolutely agree.
Impenetrable should reduce critical damage and not critical chances.
Doing so, builds based on crit still work but we can avoid also too huge burst damage (especially in AvA).
Atm with potions and some abilities, even a character with full impenetrable gear can receive a critical hit infact.

Imho this changement can be good for both players, the ones with a crit based character and the ones who get pretty oneshotted or so in AvA.

To do so, anyway, it would be better also apply the following changements:
- a cap to X% critical chances
- a passive skill on heavy armor (per piece of heavy armor used) to reduce critical chances or critical damage

GreyBrow

Helluin wrote: »

I absolutely agree.
Impenetrable should reduce critical damage and not critical chances.
Doing so, builds based on crit still work but we can avoid also too huge burst damage (especially in AvA).
Atm with potions and some abilities, even a character with full impenetrable gear can receive a critical hit infact.

Imho this changement can be good for both players, the ones with a crit based character and the ones who get pretty oneshotted or so in AvA.

To do so, anyway, it would be better also apply the following changements:
- a cap to X% critical chances
- a passive skill on heavy armor (per piece of heavy armor used) to reduce critical chances or critical damage

Father

I don't understand whats your problem with impenetrable... let it be less crit dmg or crit chance decrease it doesn't matter, if your enemy uses this trait you are gonna hit low dmg in both cases; and your crit build fails.
Unless you want ultimate spam and bat swarm due to the fact that crits generate ultimate..so no it would be bad, I don't want bat swarmers to spam more bats. I don't want zerg trains to gain more ultimate from impulse and wall..
But hey thats my opinion.

Cheers

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Father wrote: »

I don't understand whats your problem with impenetrable... let it be less crit dmg or crit chance decrease it doesn't matter, if your enemy uses this trait you are gonna hit low dmg in both cases; and your crit build fails.
Unless you want ultimate spam and bat swarm due to the fact that crits generate ultimate..so no it would be bad, I don't want bat swarmers to spam more bats. I don't want zerg trains to gain more ultimate from impulse and wall..
But hey thats my opinion.

Cheers

1) Impenetrable does absolutely nothing against sneak attacks, which are what people have been complaining about and what caused sneak to be nerfed in PvP while it could easely have been fixed by changing Impenetrable into crit damage mitigation.

2) Ultimate shouldn't generate any ultimate anymore because it got nerfed in a patch to dust and generation from crits got nerfed to 1 instead of the previous 3 (and I'm not even sure Ultimates abilities even generate ressources from crits anymore). Also in your exemple, it implies everyone would use impenetrable for PvP (which isn't the case) while clearly the main source of ultimate generation for Batswarmers are their Impulse and kills done on noob with Combat Frenzy.

3) Crit mitigation over crit chance reduction is relevant when Sorcerers using Critical Surge rely on crits to regain health. The current Impenetrable bonus negates up to 70-80% of crit opponent crit chance for little investment while gearing for crit chance pretty much force you to give up a lot of Health/Stamina/Magicka just to get close to what Impenetrable would protect you from.

So I strongly disagree with you, this change matters a lot.

Rune_Relic

What you ask for makes sense but is illogical too. lol.... i know.
Crit was about hitting arteries and pressure points and fatal points.
Reducing crit damage seems wrong for that reasons
Reducing Crit chance does make sense as they either hit the sweet spot or they dont.

Does impenetrable mean there is no gaps in the armour ?
Does impenetrable mean that armour is dense so difficult to hit spot with any force ?
Crit dont as a rule rely on force....it is an accuracy thing.

TheBucket

Its fine as is imo. Im a crit build and with a crit potion and my current crit rate. I hit like a truck.

Father

People who don't want to be forced to use impenetrable can use mages guild skill Radiant light,once its fixed.
Tbh I never knew it was bugged untill stealth nerf came and people started complaining Zos killed their build.

Varicite

Father wrote: »

People who don't want to be forced to use impenetrable can use mages guild skill Radiant light,once its fixed.
Tbh I never knew it was bugged untill stealth nerf came and people started complaining Zos killed their build.

Radiant Light accomplishes a completely different thing than Impenetrable, though.

Impenetrable reduces normal critical hit chance against you, but does not stop the auto-crit from sneak attacks.

Radiant Magelight reduces sneak attack damage against you (and others in the radius), but does nothing against normal critical hits.

If you want to reduce 1 attack against you from stealth gankers, you'd use Radiant Magelight.

If you don't want to be crit most of the time, you'd use Impenetrable.

Impen is wayyyyy better Radiant Magelight 99.9% of the time. And that's if Radiant Magelight actually works now.

NotSo

Impenetrable sucks because it works like rock/paper/scissors.
Critical beats statted guy with no impenetrable, statted guy beats the guy that traited impenetrable, and impenetrable beats critical guy.

Spangla

You shouldnt bea able to use impenetrable in a dress!

Spangla

Just thought id throw that in

guybrushtb16_ESO

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

Impenetrable sucks because it works like rock/paper/scissors.
Critical beats statted guy with no impenetrable, statted guy beats the guy that traited impenetrable, and impenetrable beats critical guy.

Not at all. In pvp, impenetrable beats all, end of story. I don't know where you got the concept that being "statted" is mutually exclusive to bringing impenetrable.