"DPS is through the roof" thread part 2

JinMori · November 2019

asalemi wrote: »

Is everyone forgetting this is a dam video game . Wow. Who cares honestly. People treat this like a job, its comical. A game is to release yourself from the stresses of the work day. At least that's what I use it for because I work and work long hours. As soon as a game turns into a job its trash time. Seems like a lot of you folks take this crap way to seriously.

Well, if you enjoy mediocrity it's no skin off my back.

Do whatever you want, but then don't complain when you are defeated by better players.

Jem_Kindheart · November 2019

Yeah I mean you can totally play casual and do just fine under 10k, no biggie. Enjoyment for me includes pushing very hard content with tight groups, that, per the mathematics of it, requires numbers to be a big deal.

It's not about elitism or ppl being jerks or anything, in fact most raiders are pretty fun and chill. It comes down to mathematics purely. Again, norm content very rarely has this, and if a player doesn't want to care, that's okay too. But honestly some norm still has a very low bar dps check, like CoA2, every boss is a dps check. 10k might clear that but 2k won't.

Katahdin · November 2019

@T3hasiangod

Thank you for posting the video.

It was EXTREMELY helpful to see someone acutally do it on a keyboard to get a better idea of TIMING!

buttaface · November 2019

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

In general, my LA/second ratio is between .87 and .91

All I need to see to know I will never ever care to improve beyond scrub level dps in this game that I consider has a broken combat system compared to many options and dozens of games played and mastered over the years. Would feel the same about any game without parkour or true aim that expects me to click ~2 or more buttons per second and cancel animations in the process. Will wager a vast majority of gamers from a PC background feel the same, and that's why ESO tends to get meh reviews for its combat. Console probably has no problem with it because console games have always been that clicky without spoiling immersion for those who play them.

buttaface · November 2019

T3hasiangod wrote: »

If it really was just gear, CP, and potions, then we'd be seeing a lot more people pulling high levels of DPS.

...and the reason you don't see that is that despite the emphasis given by content creators and the publisher itself, a vast majority of the player base, even folks with decades of solid gaming experience, won't bother with learning a nonimmersive, WAY too clickly combat system in a game ostensibly about killing monsters, not seeing how big of an epileptic seizure one can emulate via weaving and ani cancelling.

It's like the (completely imaginary) software salesman who tried to sell me a word processor that requires three clicks to register a letter instead of one, "This is only for the truly elite operators, not the duffers who expect to hit one key per letter, mastering this specialized processor means you are among the most -highly skilled- operators!" I didn't buy it, nor should anyone else.

They need to stop polishing this game endlessly (and painfully for the player base at large) into something it is not and will never be, and face the fact that it is a casual MMO based on a casual single player RPG and not an Esport contender. I am amazed their investors have put up with it this long.

buttaface · November 2019

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

What’s the point of a parse without la damage? Or are you one of those misguided players who want to see LA/weaving and/or AC removed? You guys are like the flat earthers of ESO.

This is a casual MMO based on a casual single player RPG, the only flat earthers are who those who keep thinking that making the game way too clicky on the top end is a solid business strategy for such a game. It isn't, and has -proven- not to be based on the % of players who stick around and invest in the game enough to do its misplaced higher end pve content. As much as people go on about how much money ZOS makes, I would wager the neither the company nor the game is or has ever been profitable. If that is in fact the case, it's a shame because they have the most no-brainer IP in gaming history to make a profitable MMO from.

SidraWillowsky · November 2019

buttaface wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

If it really was just gear, CP, and potions, then we'd be seeing a lot more people pulling high levels of DPS.

...and the reason you don't see that is that despite the emphasis given by content creators and the publisher itself, a vast majority of the player base, even folks with decades of solid gaming experience, won't bother with learning a nonimmersive, WAY too clickly combat system in a game ostensibly about killing monsters, not seeing how big of an epileptic seizure one can emulate via weaving and ani cancelling.

It's like the (completely imaginary) software salesman who tried to sell me a word processor that requires three clicks to register a letter instead of one, "This is only for the truly elite operators, not the duffers who expect to hit one key per letter, mastering this specialized processor means you are among the most -highly skilled- operators!" I didn't buy it, nor should anyone else.

They need to stop polishing this game endlessly (and painfully for the player base at large) into something it is not and will never be, and face the fact that it is a casual MMO based on a casual single player RPG and not an Esport contender. I am amazed their investors have put up with it this long.

Did you watch the parse portion of the video? This is the least chaotic LA weaving I've seen that still produces good DPS.

buttaface · November 2019

barney2525 wrote: »

the only thing I truly do not understand - and this is coming from a guy who is retired and has no commitments, and thus makes his own hours for sleeping, eating and playing games, any time, day or night - WHY??????

I would not spend Half the time people here are, worrying that their DPS is "too low" (what does that even mean? If you can beat the monster your DPS should be considered just fine )and therefore spend hours on end, - using white bland gear, then using no CPs, then using CPs, then fighting left handed, then with one hand tied behind their back....

What ever happened to playing the game because it is FUN to play? When did the game become just a convoluted algebra problem?

Just curious.

My standard is - If I can beat the monsters, the character is good to go.

IMHO

Great post.

Back in the early days of MMOs before DPS meters, twitch, youtube, before even voice chat coordination, when accomplished career people (computer hobbyists and lots of grad students, servicemen among others) played the games as relaxing hobbies to escape from their taxing lives, that's the way it was. You probably were playing them during those golden years. I was and they were far better then, harder in several ways, despite being technologically inferior to games today. No one EVER misplaced their importance or really appealed to them as "skilled" pursuits in themselves, but pure escape a notch up from TV or other hobbies, no higher.

Then the internet and cheap, powerful machines massively proliferated, WOW became a category killer, and suddenly for lots of mass market folks without a whole lot else going on, MMOs and "skill" in them became like the job they didn't have and the real life stress they didn't face, a substitute... and we had a whole new set of people who take their video games a weeeee bit too seriously.

And that's pretty much where we are today, with people appealing to "skill" and "git gud" in a hyper-clicky, broken combat system in a what should be a very casual game that is IN FACT based on a very casual single player RPG. The devs are cut from the same cloth as the "wee bit too serious" folks, and listen to the wrong voices. Keep waiting for the investors to step in and right the ship, maybe in 2020. ESO could be a great escapist game, but isn't because so much of the middling and up content is developed for a very narrow slice of players.

buttaface · November 2019

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Did you watch the parse portion of the video? This is the least chaotic LA weaving I've seen that still produces good DPS.

Admittedly I didn't. And I do appreciate your thread, it's a valuable service for people who want to do the latter content in this game for some reason. I just know that every time I practice on a 3m dummy (and I am capable of decent enough DPS on one considering I don't go out of my way to optimize) feel like I'm doing the word processing that is a part of my work instead of playing a monster killing game.

When what is supposed to be rather casual entertainment starts feeling like -work- that's a no go for me where video games are concerned. If I want a clicky type challenge, or a "stand on this pad and pull this lever but not that one" I'll get out the Mandarin card or try to learn a new keyboard piece, not hit 2+ keys a second in a fantasy monster game.

T3hasiangod · November 2019

ITT: People telling other people how to have fun.

What if my version of fun is sweaty, carpal tunnel inducing, rapidly clicking my keys, combat?

JinMori · November 2019

I bet that the old mmos thing is also incorrect, because it doesn't take into consideration context, and the nature of mmos and competitive gameplay didn't really change.

I guarantee you that there were just as many ragers in old mmos compared to now, the only thing that changed is the amount of information available, and the fact that right now there usually are less repercussions for leaving a group, but the aggressiveness when things go south, the fact that people get pissed off when someone is dragging the group behind, that did not change, people were more "lenient" with bad players purely because changing a group member was much more time consuming then, but the anger part did not change one bit.

As a result of more information the apex difficulty changed based on how easily accessible information is.

But it's not like skill was not required.

Basically what changed now is that since there is more information, and it's easier to get a replacement, if you are really a ball and a chain people will generally think less about kicking you, and just do it, but if you are that bad you have no one else to blame but yourself, and if you wanna have fun at the expense of other people, than you should take a good look at the mirror, because you basically wanna force other players to carry your ass, and once, you could do that, now you can't anymore, and so we see more and more people "complaining" about it.

So, no buttaface, i think you are 180 degrees from right, because it's not about having a job or now, or how much time you put into the game, nobody likes having dead weight, especially if said dead weight doesn't care at all about your fun, and only cares about his or hers, that is when you really *** off people, because it's fine to not know how to play if you need to learn or if you have actual physical problems, but if your definition of having fun is to rob other people of theirs because you cannot be bothered to learn a few things, but still wanna do high end content, then we have a problem, and you shouldn't do that content.

By the way, if a game is really really good, people will usually get good at it, just because they like playing the game, currently eso doesn't seem to do that, and i mean, do i need say more, it's not like eso is in it's best shape, you can't really use that the game is for the casuals excuse for much longer.

Because the matter of fact is that the game can cater to both, but the really good games retain those players, and the once casual are now good players, that does not really happen with eso for a number of reasons.

Nothing changed about the core values of mmos, the only thing that changed is opportunity and information, and sure, you could say that some things changed for the worse, but if the opportunity and information was around at that time, you would see exactly the same reactions, because people fundamentally did not change, just because you did not hear about the really *** angry person that was behind the chair carrying someone else, does not mean it did not happen, in game through a whisper it might have happened, but pretty much nobody else ever heard about it.

ZOS_GregoryV · November 2019

Greetings all,

After removing a few posts for Baiting and Flaming, we must remind everyone that all posts are to be kept civil and constructive, as well as within the guidelines of the rules that we have in place. Baiting and Flaming other members of the community are both violations of the rules that have in place. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to take a few moments and review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.
-Greg-

buttaface · November 2019

T3hasiangod wrote: »

ITT: People telling other people how to have fun.

What if my version of fun is sweaty, carpal tunnel inducing, rapidly clicking my keys, combat?

Is that really what's going on here? Because lots of posts to this thread look more like different versions of "Ur Bad" to me, not yours, but quite a few.

If that's truly your version of fun, why in a game based on -Skyrim- and other solo RPG titles instead of one of myriad other games with parkour, true aim and the difficulty that comes from those rather than "stand on this pad, get in this circle and not that one, flip this switch but not the other, two run off and do this sidegame for awhile?"

Morgha_Kul · November 2019

Thanks, ZOS Greg.

I also think we've drifted off topic a bit here. The point was to try and discern where damage was coming from, and I think we've had excellent data in that regard.

Now, as for the limits of damage...

It's my feeling from 30-odd years of gaming that if damage is relevant to your game, you can't allow it to reach a point where it trivializes the game's content. You have to get it to a point where the damage is sufficient that the content is not overwhelming, but not so great that content is trivial.

I don't think you can argue that dps at the top end is so great that it renders almost all of the game trivial. The bottom end is fine, I think. Damage for casual players (ie at the lower end) is such that open world content can still be challenging. It's that top end that needs to be addressed. That would also mean recalibrating the top end content, of course, but then it might make it possible for everyone to do that content.

The difficult part is making it a challenge to get to the "new" top end so the achiever players who have worked so hard to get to the top can still feel a sense of accomplishment.

It's not an easy thing, but I think the game needs it. Just my opinion, of course, but it's backed up by considerable experience.

Runefang · November 2019

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Thanks, ZOS Greg.

I also think we've drifted off topic a bit here. The point was to try and discern where damage was coming from, and I think we've had excellent data in that regard.

Now, as for the limits of damage...

It's my feeling from 30-odd years of gaming that if damage is relevant to your game, you can't allow it to reach a point where it trivializes the game's content. You have to get it to a point where the damage is sufficient that the content is not overwhelming, but not so great that content is trivial.

I don't think you can argue that dps at the top end is so great that it renders almost all of the game trivial. The bottom end is fine, I think. Damage for casual players (ie at the lower end) is such that open world content can still be challenging. It's that top end that needs to be addressed. That would also mean recalibrating the top end content, of course, but then it might make it possible for everyone to do that content.

The difficult part is making it a challenge to get to the "new" top end so the achiever players who have worked so hard to get to the top can still feel a sense of accomplishment.

It's not an easy thing, but I think the game needs it. Just my opinion, of course, but it's backed up by considerable experience.

Your argument makes no sense. You want to make top end dps lower and top end content easier if I read that correctly? So everybody can clear top end content. And make it a challenge to get to the new top end dps? Which nobody will want to do since top end content just got easy enough for casuals.

buttaface · November 2019

Runefang wrote: »

Your argument makes no sense. You want to make top end dps lower and top end content easier if I read that correctly? So everybody can clear top end content. And make it a challenge to get to the new top end dps? Which nobody will want to do since top end content just got easy enough for casuals.

I think his comment presumes the continuing release of new top end, difficult content periodically, not making all top end content easier when released.

And why would anyone care if more "casual" players could also end up doing the preexisting content after a time? That's the way MMOs have always worked, successful ones anyway. New content is harder for the cutting edge crowd, old content gets easier for everyone else when new content is released.

kylewwefan · November 2019

The PC guys might not get this. On console, the game has not felt right for a long time. There’s a noticeable delay with every action you do. Light attacks refuse to go off. Skills spit spat and stutter. The game doesn’t feel fluid, or reactive. It’s slow, clunky and predictably unpredictable or just plain bad.

Players have tried using a house with nothing in it to minimize all the lag and performance shortcomings of the game.

Then when you get into content, it all goes out the window. Light attack rotations don’t reflect your character animations and that is not necessarily animation cancelling, but I’d blame it more so on bad game performance. It just feels “off” Many times if that makes any sense.

You tap a button on a your controller and don’t see anything happen on screen til a second or two later it throws things off. And then only gets worse when you keep hammering more commands in. Could you imagine this kind of issue in guitar hero or rockband. It’s catastrophic and would completely wreck that type of game.

When I wrote the first “DPS is Through the roof” we were in DOT Meta. Dots were wildly over performing and I believe this made it much easier for many to reach higher damage then they had before; because you would set out dots working your way through both bars and by the time you came back to the first bar you just start over again. The timing didn't seem to matter so much. Just keep working a rotation front to back and anyone could do good damage.

That all went away with Dragonhold when Dots and AOE’s were massively nerffed. They’re still a component to good damage, but there needs to be a good bit of direct damage. And there’s significantly more sustain issues to deal with as well.

If your light attacks aren’t going off right, You’re gonna have An exceptionally bad time with NightBlade and other classes are gonna suffer as well. I get this all the time. Whether it’s me being bad or the game being a steaming pile of doo is debatable. But the game’s responsiveness is definitely something the devs should be looking into imo.

SidraWillowsky · November 2019

buttaface wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Did you watch the parse portion of the video? This is the least chaotic LA weaving I've seen that still produces good DPS.

Admittedly I didn't. And I do appreciate your thread, it's a valuable service for people who want to do the latter content in this game for some reason. I just know that every time I practice on a 3m dummy (and I am capable of decent enough DPS on one considering I don't go out of my way to optimize) feel like I'm doing the word processing that is a part of my work instead of playing a monster killing game.

When what is supposed to be rather casual entertainment starts feeling like -work- that's a no go for me where video games are concerned. If I want a clicky type challenge, or a "stand on this pad and pull this lever but not that one" I'll get out the Mandarin card or try to learn a new keyboard piece, not hit 2+ keys a second in a fantasy monster game.

I'd recommend watching it at the end, even if you plan on never doing this stuff- it's got me and quite a few of my guildies questioning everything we've been doing when working on our rotations because it's so clean and controlled.

This is actually my first MMO and also the first game where I've actually paid any attention to the combat system, though I don't know if Zelda, The Witcher 3, and Morrowind/Skyrim/Oblivion count as having actual combat systems. Regardless, my typical playstyle = "set game to ez mode and mindlessly hack at enemies with sword” because I’d rather not have to put a whole lot of thought into not dying. And trust me, the last thing I ever thought I’d be doing when I first started playing was working heavily on DPS. I was pulling about 3k DPS on the 3 mil when I was in the low CP 200s, and after getting help from guildies I got to 15-16k and felt like I was playing in god mode since I could actually kill mobs before they killed me. At that point I had little desire to go much higher and I don’t actually know how or why I got into it like this. All I can say is that I honestly enjoy it and know that many others do too- maybe for some it IS stressful and feels like a job, but that’s why I don’t do “competitive” endgame stuff, like score runs of vet HM trials. A lot of what I do tends to be in the PTS where I just test builds and gear sets. Sure, there’s some serious work done with my main, but a lot of the time it’s more “OHHHHH how does THIS set perform?” than anything else.

SidraWillowsky · November 2019

kylewwefan wrote: »

The PC guys might not get this. On console, the game has not felt right for a long time. There’s a noticeable delay with every action you do. Light attacks refuse to go off. Skills spit spat and stutter. The game doesn’t feel fluid, or reactive. It’s slow, clunky and predictably unpredictable or just plain bad.

(snipped this out for brevity)

If your light attacks aren’t going off right, You’re gonna have An exceptionally bad time with NightBlade and other classes are gonna suffer as well. I get this all the time. Whether it’s me being bad or the game being a steaming pile of doo is debatable. But the game’s responsiveness is definitely something the devs should be looking into imo.

I'm PC but play on a controller. While I don't experience some of those issues, things will at times go sideways and I'll be unable to LA weave at all (LAs simply will not go off) and/or certain skills won't fire- Elemental Wall is a huge one. I don't know if you have any sort of action timers, but the weird thing for me is that the skill will fail to go off but the skill timer starts ticking anyway.

I feel for you... it's utterly maddening to have that randomly start happening, and I can't imagine how frustrating that is to have it happen on top of the other issues you've mentioned.

T3hasiangod · November 2019

kylewwefan wrote: »

The PC guys might not get this. On console, the game has not felt right for a long time. There’s a noticeable delay with every action you do. Light attacks refuse to go off. Skills spit spat and stutter. The game doesn’t feel fluid, or reactive. It’s slow, clunky and predictably unpredictable or just plain bad.

Players have tried using a house with nothing in it to minimize all the lag and performance shortcomings of the game.

Then when you get into content, it all goes out the window. Light attack rotations don’t reflect your character animations and that is not necessarily animation cancelling, but I’d blame it more so on bad game performance. It just feels “off” Many times if that makes any sense.

You tap a button on a your controller and don’t see anything happen on screen til a second or two later it throws things off. And then only gets worse when you keep hammering more commands in. Could you imagine this kind of issue in guitar hero or rockband. It’s catastrophic and would completely wreck that type of game.

When I wrote the first “DPS is Through the roof” we were in DOT Meta. Dots were wildly over performing and I believe this made it much easier for many to reach higher damage then they had before; because you would set out dots working your way through both bars and by the time you came back to the first bar you just start over again. The timing didn't seem to matter so much. Just keep working a rotation front to back and anyone could do good damage.

That all went away with Dragonhold when Dots and AOE’s were massively nerffed. They’re still a component to good damage, but there needs to be a good bit of direct damage. And there’s significantly more sustain issues to deal with as well.

If your light attacks aren’t going off right, You’re gonna have An exceptionally bad time with NightBlade and other classes are gonna suffer as well. I get this all the time. Whether it’s me being bad or the game being a steaming pile of doo is debatable. But the game’s responsiveness is definitely something the devs should be looking into imo.

And yet there are console DPS that are outparsing or matching some PC players...

itsfatbass · November 2019

T3hasiangod wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

The PC guys might not get this. On console, the game has not felt right for a long time. There’s a noticeable delay with every action you do. Light attacks refuse to go off. Skills spit spat and stutter. The game doesn’t feel fluid, or reactive. It’s slow, clunky and predictably unpredictable or just plain bad.

Players have tried using a house with nothing in it to minimize all the lag and performance shortcomings of the game.

Then when you get into content, it all goes out the window. Light attack rotations don’t reflect your character animations and that is not necessarily animation cancelling, but I’d blame it more so on bad game performance. It just feels “off” Many times if that makes any sense.

You tap a button on a your controller and don’t see anything happen on screen til a second or two later it throws things off. And then only gets worse when you keep hammering more commands in. Could you imagine this kind of issue in guitar hero or rockband. It’s catastrophic and would completely wreck that type of game.

When I wrote the first “DPS is Through the roof” we were in DOT Meta. Dots were wildly over performing and I believe this made it much easier for many to reach higher damage then they had before; because you would set out dots working your way through both bars and by the time you came back to the first bar you just start over again. The timing didn't seem to matter so much. Just keep working a rotation front to back and anyone could do good damage.

That all went away with Dragonhold when Dots and AOE’s were massively nerffed. They’re still a component to good damage, but there needs to be a good bit of direct damage. And there’s significantly more sustain issues to deal with as well.

If your light attacks aren’t going off right, You’re gonna have An exceptionally bad time with NightBlade and other classes are gonna suffer as well. I get this all the time. Whether it’s me being bad or the game being a steaming pile of doo is debatable. But the game’s responsiveness is definitely something the devs should be looking into imo.

And yet there are console DPS that are outparsing or matching some PC players...

Not to mention the PC players that use controller. I know quite a few who parse more than 80k with controller.

MartiniDaniels · November 2019

I still can't get it why many "casual players" (nothing bad in it), want to nerf all game so casual level = max possible level of difficulty? with exception of few skins, titles and perfected trial gear (perfected trial gear useless in PVP), 99% of content available in normal mode. So 1% of content can't be dedicated to players who run organized groups and min-max their builds?

SidraWillowsky · November 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I still can't get it why many "casual players" (nothing bad in it), want to nerf all game so casual level = max possible level of difficulty? with exception of few skins, titles and perfected trial gear (perfected trial gear useless in PVP), 99% of content available in normal mode. So 1% of content can't be dedicated to players who run organized groups and min-max their builds?

And the thing is that high DPS isn't going to teach you the mechanics in these cases. Having the DPS to complete content doesn't automatically mean that you can complete said content. I'd wager that people with the Godslayer achievement have spent hours and hours and hours working on the fight mechanics on top of the time spent working on their DPS/healing/tanking.

Mr_Gallows · November 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Well, some people caught one of those uber Youtube elites cheating a DPS mannequin with a block cast macro.
This is what happens when you have a broken gameplay engine and promote glitches to game features.

Precisely and to top it off you have players enjoying the glitches so much they suport the promotion. Of course the devs don't mind as it means they don't have to fix the game. It's a proper mess.

Macroing is also used on consoles a lot using custom controllers.

Grianasteri · November 2019

kylewwefan wrote: »

This is where you are wrong and try to use math to prove yourself less wrong....

That 30% increase from ‘gear alone’ is a function of GEAR and PLAYER skill. A bad player is BiS gear from whatever gear there they are wearing will not improve their dps by 30%.

Let’s say it did though just by putting on BiS gear that 15-20k dps gets what (basic math time)

15,000 x 1.3. = 19500 (wow MASSIVE dps!)

20,000 x 1.3. = 26,000 ( wow this is truly MASSIVE dps)

You see. If a player want to be good they have to get better its as simple as that

TLDR 30% of a low number is still a low number. FWIW. I only do 40k to a 3mil with unperfected FG and New moon with sustain monster set.

By your math/explanation if I only had perfected FG I be doing 52k!!!!!

I would say far from proving me wrong, your maths proves me right. Although you are making far too big a thing of the 30% stat which is just a ball park and also would not particularly applicable to those operating with 'end game' dps or wearing bis gear, your FG/PFG example is absolutely not what were talking about.

Have you any idea how massive it is for a 20k dps player, to move to 26k? No Because you are exhibiting exactly the elitist attitude I have spoken of in the past. 40k puts you at double or triple the average ESO player dps.

Any BAD player may not benefit a great deal from bis optimised gear, but were not discussing bad players, were discussing average players who represent the vast majority of the ESO player base. It is interesting to see what elitists view as "bad" players.

An average player can have trash sets on, or incomplete, un-optimised sets etc, as I described earlier, then switch to bis optimised gear and see an uplift of thousands in dps. This is just a fact and I have no idea why so many high dps players have an issue with it being a fact.

JinMori · November 2019

You know why skill is the most important factor?

The main reason is this, gear cp etc gives you the dps, but skill is what allows you to reach that dps, with skills, you can do anywhere from 15k to 100k with bis gear.

This is why skill is the most important factor.

Now, if we talk about what is more important between cp and gear, i think gear is more important for the overall dps after you reached cp 300.

I honestly have a lot of problems with eso, which is why i am not playing right now, but unlike many others, i do not think removing cp is a good idea, for one it's a cool progression system, second it's not even the problem, it's just that it seems to be the case, but you need to look at a more basic level.

What is power creep? Power creep happens when the content cannot keep up with how powerful the players are, so what is the solution, punish players by nerfing? Or creating new systems to counteract the exponential power growth? I think one of the 2 feels way better overall than the other.

The matter of fact is that the average eso player is really bad, for a variety of reasons, but really bad nonetheless.

kylewwefan · November 2019

No idea where you got your quote from dude? It looks like my style writing, but I usually try to stay very far away from math.

Sorry if I offend you. Or if I was wrong? I don’t even know myself here.

Everything starts adding up fairly dramatically starting with gear, Race, Food, CP, mundus, rotation etc.

There was a video some time ago of a guy bow light attacking his way through Maelstrom. He did 13k DPS just light attacking. Think he had Relequen and Tourgs or something to that effect on. If you just light attack without Relequen, you’ll probably hit about 3, 4, 5 or 6k. It’s that strong of a carry set.

So for a very very low damage player, yeah. That set could easily do %50 of your damage.

I just had a friend race change from redguard to Orc On her Stam Necro and she gained 8k DPS on the big dummy fwiw.

ZOS_GregoryV · November 2019

Greetings all,

After removing another few posts for Baiting and Flaming, again we must remind everyone to keep civil, constructive, and in the guidelines of the rules that we have. Baiting and Flaming members of the community are both violations of the rules that have in place. Continued Baiting and Flaming, and even derailing, could result in further action being taken and nobody wants that.

Thank you for your understanding.
-Greg-

Morgha_Kul · November 2019

Runefang wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Thanks, ZOS Greg.

I also think we've drifted off topic a bit here. The point was to try and discern where damage was coming from, and I think we've had excellent data in that regard.

Now, as for the limits of damage...

It's my feeling from 30-odd years of gaming that if damage is relevant to your game, you can't allow it to reach a point where it trivializes the game's content. You have to get it to a point where the damage is sufficient that the content is not overwhelming, but not so great that content is trivial.

I don't think you can argue that dps at the top end is so great that it renders almost all of the game trivial. The bottom end is fine, I think. Damage for casual players (ie at the lower end) is such that open world content can still be challenging. It's that top end that needs to be addressed. That would also mean recalibrating the top end content, of course, but then it might make it possible for everyone to do that content.

The difficult part is making it a challenge to get to the "new" top end so the achiever players who have worked so hard to get to the top can still feel a sense of accomplishment.

It's not an easy thing, but I think the game needs it. Just my opinion, of course, but it's backed up by considerable experience.

Your argument makes no sense. You want to make top end dps lower and top end content easier if I read that correctly? So everybody can clear top end content. And make it a challenge to get to the new top end dps? Which nobody will want to do since top end content just got easy enough for casuals.

I mean that if top end dps was reduced, you would need to reduce top end difficulty the same way. The top end content would still be difficult, it would just make it possible for lower end players to contribute meaningfully. As it is, if I tried to do any Vet content, I'd be completely unable to contribute. If the difficulty were reduced to accomodate a reduction in top end dps, then I would be able to contribute, but the top end players would still be the top end players. The content would still be just as difficult, relatively speaking.

Am I understanding your last comment, that the only reason people want to do the top content is BECAUSE no one else can?

Ramber · November 2019

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Asian posted his video. https://youtu.be/NQEflmqh9VU
Over to you low dps having people.

Wonderful and ty for trying to get rid of some of the doubters asain, this was never a question for me. for me and people i play with its the difference between live and pts. Could you please do one on Live in a house lol? i only parse on live and depending on the time of day i may not be able to get injections to proc(i have to rehit the key with a 300mb DL, 8 ping internet speed) or half my light attacks to go off. Live is a completely different animal these days from PTS. so much so we don't even use the trials dummy as a reflection of our DPS because, our numbers are often 20k less then yours and we too have spent hours a day for years practicing. When we use 3/6 mill dummies we are at the top of the food chain but with trials dummies we just don't know where the extra deeps comes from. thanks either way!