Maintenance for the week of March 25:
• [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – March 28, 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)

Fixing Stam Cleave Damage

AuraStorm43
AuraStorm43
✭✭✭✭✭
As someone who enjoys stam toons the biggest problem for stam oriented groups is they’re so single target focused. So i’m curious what ways you guys would fix this problem to make stam more viable than it is right now

Personally i think the toxic barrage more of the bow ult should be changed to an aoe that does poison damage over a short period of time. The ballista morph will still exist for people who want single target focus and it’ll give stam a viable aoe ult similar to the destruction ult
  • Septimus_Magna
    Septimus_Magna
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    The buff to Caltrops might help a bit to buff cleave dmg for stam DDs, but I dont know if thats enough.

    Changing the Bow ult is also a good idea, most stam DDs run Dawnbreaker on the front bar so having an AOE ult on the back bar (like Elemental Rage) should help a bit.

    On my stamplar I sometimes run Nova on the back bar in fights where AOE dmg is important, not all classes have that option.
    PC - EU (AD)
    Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
    Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
    Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
    Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
    Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
    Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
    Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
    Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer
  • mobicera
    mobicera
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    The required effort to hit pen cap as well as the lack of cleave both need to be taken into account to make stam more viable and next patch we lose a bit more pen from cp...

    This doesn't address an issue that seems prevalent on console however that is the difficulty in finding stam dps that aren't dead all the time.
    No lie all but 1 or 2 stam mains I have played with on console just can't stay alive be it vet DLC trials or vet dlc 4 person...
    Unfortunately this creates the preconception that all stam are floor dps, something you may also have to fight against to make stam considered viable.
  • Vaoh
    Vaoh
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    The only issue with Stamina is Physical Pen. It’s frustrating to reach it in trials and you have to worry about uptimes. In Solo stuff you outright won’t reach pen cap.

    Drop the base Phys Resist of enemies from 18K down to at least 15K. Even then it’ll be rough still.
    Edited by Vaoh on 11 May 2021 13:56
  • Septimus_Magna
    Septimus_Magna
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    mobicera wrote: »
    The required effort to hit pen cap as well as the lack of cleave both need to be taken into account to make stam more viable and next patch we lose a bit more pen from cp...

    Penetration is important but I dont think its the entire story.

    stamina has 14% extra WD
    magicka has 5634 spell pen

    As stam DD you can slot the Lover mundus to gain 4196 pen (with 7 gold divines), the 14% WD at a base of 4k ends up being 1.6k extra WD which is probably better than any mundus stone magicka builds can pick. With higher WD amount this difference only gets bigger.

    If the tank is only running Tremorscale stam builds (except Necro and NB flanking) lack 4425 pen, the Lover mundus would leave you short 4425-4196=229 of the pen cap. An extra 10 points into Piercing would solve this and make you reach the pen cap. See penetration overview here.

    This leads me to believe that the skills most likely the cause of the problem rather than the stats.
    Edited by Septimus_Magna on 11 May 2021 14:17
    PC - EU (AD)
    Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
    Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
    Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
    Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
    Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
    Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
    Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
    Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer
  • itscompton
    itscompton
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    As someone who enjoys stam toons the biggest problem for stam oriented groups is they’re so single target focused. So i’m curious what ways you guys would fix this problem to make stam more viable than it is right now

    Personally i think the toxic barrage more of the bow ult should be changed to an aoe that does poison damage over a short period of time. The ballista morph will still exist for people who want single target focus and it’ll give stam a viable aoe ult similar to the destruction ult

    I'm all for a Stam Aoe ulti but gonna give a "heck no" to this suggestion as Toxic Barrage is a much better morph than Ballista for single target in PvP and lots of people actually use it.
    Duel wield already has an AOE ulti that they could improve to make viable. As it is I've never heard of a single person slotting it for any reason.
    Edited by itscompton on 11 May 2021 20:02
  • MudcrabAttack
    MudcrabAttack
    ✭✭✭✭
    I switched Ballista for Shooting Star after the last patch, it's loads of damage, ultimate regen, and it scales very well on a stamina build. The flame staff ultimate is way more devastating on a stamina build, I would run it if I wasn't as interested in bows.

    Is it weird to see an archer summon giant meteors or firestorms from the sky? Yeah. I'd rather have a bow ultimate that didn't shoot weak pew pew spitwads at one thing after waiting 5 minutes to generate the ult.

    As far as AOE spammables, stamina has the best. Master 2H with brawler spam can clobber giant crowds in 1-2 hits.

    When mobs are scattered, acid spray with the Asylum bow/swamp raider set hits hard.
    Edited by MudcrabAttack on 11 May 2021 21:22
  • AuraStorm43
    AuraStorm43
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    itscompton wrote: »
    As someone who enjoys stam toons the biggest problem for stam oriented groups is they’re so single target focused. So i’m curious what ways you guys would fix this problem to make stam more viable than it is right now

    Personally i think the toxic barrage more of the bow ult should be changed to an aoe that does poison damage over a short period of time. The ballista morph will still exist for people who want single target focus and it’ll give stam a viable aoe ult similar to the destruction ult

    I'm all for a Stam Aoe ulti but gonna give a "heck no" to this suggestion as Toxic Barrage is a much better morph than Ballista for single target in PvP and lots of people actually use it.
    Duel wield already has an AOE ulti that they could improve to make viable. As it is I've never heard of a single person slotting it for any reason.

    Never been a fan of toxic barrage myself since it limits movement while its active

    Yeah improving the 2h and Dual Wield ults are an option as well i just figured a reworked bow ult would be better since you wouldn’t need to be in melee range and for some content only bow/bow builds are viable
    I switched Ballista for Shooting Star after the last patch, it's loads of damage, ultimate regen, and it scales very well on a stamina build. The flame staff ultimate is way more devastating on a stamina build, I would run it if I wasn't as interested in bows.

    Is it weird to see an archer summon giant meteors or firestorms from the sky? Yeah. I'd rather have a bow ultimate that didn't shoot weak pew pew spitwads at one thing after waiting 5 minutes to generate the ult.

    As far as AOE spammables, stamina has the best. Master 2H with brawler spam can clobber giant crowds in 1-2 hits.

    When mobs are scattered, acid spray with the Asylum bow/swamp raider set hits hard.

    Yeah i love the master 2h but without dressing room most console players can’t be bothered to use it in pve, i’ve only ever used it in PVP
    Edited by AuraStorm43 on 12 May 2021 00:31
  • AuraStorm43
    AuraStorm43
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I dunno why it double posted but it did lol
    Edited by AuraStorm43 on 12 May 2021 00:31
  • NoMoreChillies
    NoMoreChillies
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Change 2H ult to Whirlwind ala Barbarian from Diablo 3. I never see anyone use 2H ult
    Insulting people on the internet is cowardly.
  • Athan1
    Athan1
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Stamina hits harder than magicka but is more single-target focused. This is how it should be and it's called balance.

    Having said that, there are several aoe options for stamina, at least 1-2 skills per skill-line and the 2H basic attacks are also aoe. And each class has at least one stam aoe skill.
    Athan Atticus Imperial Templar of Shezarr
  • AuraStorm43
    AuraStorm43
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Athan1 wrote: »
    Stamina hits harder than magicka but is more single-target focused. This is how it should be and it's called balance.

    Having said that, there are several aoe options for stamina, at least 1-2 skills per skill-line and the 2H basic attacks are also aoe. And each class has at least one stam aoe skill.

    If its “balance” then why did the devs change caltrops? They’ve acknowledged its a problem
  • Firstmep
    Firstmep
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    mobicera wrote: »
    The required effort to hit pen cap as well as the lack of cleave both need to be taken into account to make stam more viable and next patch we lose a bit more pen from cp...

    Penetration is important but I dont think its the entire story.

    stamina has 14% extra WD
    magicka has 5634 spell pen

    As stam DD you can slot the Lover mundus to gain 4196 pen (with 7 gold divines), the 14% WD at a base of 4k ends up being 1.6k extra WD which is probably better than any mundus stone magicka builds can pick. With higher WD amount this difference only gets bigger.

    If the tank is only running Tremorscale stam builds (except Necro and NB flanking) lack 4425 pen, the Lover mundus would leave you short 4425-4196=229 of the pen cap. An extra 10 points into Piercing would solve this and make you reach the pen cap. See penetration overview here.

    This leads me to believe that the skills most likely the cause of the problem rather than the stats.

    I think you forget that crit exists and is more important than wpd/SPD.
    In your example, stam picks lover, mag picks thief or shadow.
    Even after repeated nerds to crit, it's still stronger than spell or wpn for scaling your dmg in pve.
  • RogueShark
    RogueShark
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Firstmep wrote: »
    mobicera wrote: »
    The required effort to hit pen cap as well as the lack of cleave both need to be taken into account to make stam more viable and next patch we lose a bit more pen from cp...

    Penetration is important but I dont think its the entire story.

    stamina has 14% extra WD
    magicka has 5634 spell pen

    As stam DD you can slot the Lover mundus to gain 4196 pen (with 7 gold divines), the 14% WD at a base of 4k ends up being 1.6k extra WD which is probably better than any mundus stone magicka builds can pick. With higher WD amount this difference only gets bigger.

    If the tank is only running Tremorscale stam builds (except Necro and NB flanking) lack 4425 pen, the Lover mundus would leave you short 4425-4196=229 of the pen cap. An extra 10 points into Piercing would solve this and make you reach the pen cap. See penetration overview here.

    This leads me to believe that the skills most likely the cause of the problem rather than the stats.

    I think you forget that crit exists and is more important than wpd/SPD.
    In your example, stam picks lover, mag picks thief or shadow.
    Even after repeated nerds to crit, it's still stronger than spell or wpn for scaling your dmg in pve.

    This.
    Running lover in rele + kinras with 1h sharpened to get pen capped, I'm below 50% crit. Meanwhile, my mag buddy who gets all the pen he needs without even trying at all (and also doesn't need to care about spell damage in PvE; BiS for mag does not rely on proc conditions like relequen for stam) jacks up to almost 90% crit.
    PC NA
    Will heal DPS for memes.
  • dsalter
    dsalter
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    a simple solution would be to give medium armor alittle armor penetration, this would even the penetration issue, then adding some cleave to some dot abilities like rend or 2h cleave, maybe rework 2h ulti into a spin attack that makes you immune to CC for the duration
    PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread

    EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
    Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.

  • itscompton
    itscompton
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    itscompton wrote: »
    As someone who enjoys stam toons the biggest problem for stam oriented groups is they’re so single target focused. So i’m curious what ways you guys would fix this problem to make stam more viable than it is right now

    Personally i think the toxic barrage more of the bow ult should be changed to an aoe that does poison damage over a short period of time. The ballista morph will still exist for people who want single target focus and it’ll give stam a viable aoe ult similar to the destruction ult

    I'm all for a Stam Aoe ulti but gonna give a "heck no" to this suggestion as Toxic Barrage is a much better morph than Ballista for single target in PvP and lots of people actually use it.
    Duel wield already has an AOE ulti that they could improve to make viable. As it is I've never heard of a single person slotting it for any reason.

    Never been a fan of toxic barrage myself since it limits movement while its active

    Yeah improving the 2h and Dual Wield ults are an option as well i just figured a reworked bow ult would be better since you wouldn’t need to be in melee range and for some content only bow/bow builds are viable
    I switched Ballista for Shooting Star after the last patch, it's loads of damage, ultimate regen, and it scales very well on a stamina build. The flame staff ultimate is way more devastating on a stamina build, I would run it if I wasn't as interested in bows.

    Is it weird to see an archer summon giant meteors or firestorms from the sky? Yeah. I'd rather have a bow ultimate that didn't shoot weak pew pew spitwads at one thing after waiting 5 minutes to generate the ult.

    As far as AOE spammables, stamina has the best. Master 2H with brawler spam can clobber giant crowds in 1-2 hits.

    When mobs are scattered, acid spray with the Asylum bow/swamp raider set hits hard.

    Yeah i love the master 2h but without dressing room most console players can’t be bothered to use it in pve, i’ve only ever used it in PVP

    Toxic Barrage
    Cast Time: Instant (4 seconds channel)
    Target: Enemy
    Range: Maximum range: 28 meters
    Cost: 175 Ultimate
    Skill description
    Unleash a barrage of arrows at an enemy, dealing 22930 Poison Damage over 4 seconds. After dealing damage you poison the enemy, dealing an additional 11840 Poison Damage over 8 seconds after a 1 second delay. You can move at full speed and are immune to all disabling effects while channeling this attack.

    Ummm what? Yes it's a channel so you can't cast other abilities while it's active but you can sprint (and I believe even roll dodge) while shooting and it does MASSIVE damage so it's well worth the channel time. It also has no cast time so it comes out of nowhere when you cast it and can completely turn a fight against aggressive players.
  • Jacozilla
    Jacozilla
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Athan1 wrote: »
    Stamina hits harder than magicka but is more single-target focused. This is how it should be and it's called balance.

    Having said that, there are several aoe options for stamina, at least 1-2 skills per skill-line and the 2H basic attacks are also aoe. And each class has at least one stam aoe skill.

    If its “balance” then why did the devs change caltrops? They’ve acknowledged its a problem

    If you go by this logic, e.g. devs changed it hence a real balance problem, then which devs were right?

    The ones that nerfed caltrops because it was ‘too strong’ or the ones now buffing it?

    It should hopefully be fairly obvious by now that real balance issue doesn’t have to be the criteria for devs to change something. As demonstrated by many examples, devs nerf and buff just for the sake of making players chase the hamster wheel.
  • AuraStorm43
    AuraStorm43
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jacozilla wrote: »
    Athan1 wrote: »
    Stamina hits harder than magicka but is more single-target focused. This is how it should be and it's called balance.

    Having said that, there are several aoe options for stamina, at least 1-2 skills per skill-line and the 2H basic attacks are also aoe. And each class has at least one stam aoe skill.

    If its “balance” then why did the devs change caltrops? They’ve acknowledged its a problem

    If you go by this logic, e.g. devs changed it hence a real balance problem, then which devs were right?

    The ones that nerfed caltrops because it was ‘too strong’ or the ones now buffing it?

    It should hopefully be fairly obvious by now that real balance issue doesn’t have to be the criteria for devs to change something. As demonstrated by many examples, devs nerf and buff just for the sake of making players chase the hamster wheel.

    Yeah fair enough, some of these sledgehammer changes are quite frustrating, and offen zos nerfs stuff way too hard, from what i recall they originally nerfed caltrops alongside all the other aoe dot abilities
Sign In or Register to comment.