Bretons could use a racial passive buff

Sinolai

the only thing I dont like is the concussion/chilled/burning requirement for spell resistance passive's activation when they also remove all chances for NPCs to proc these effects. Makes it a pure pvp passive. Should proc with any statuseffect that deals spell damage or just give an increased flat value similar to what was done to nord and dunmer.

ealdwin

Sinolai wrote: »

the only thing I dont like is the concussion/chilled/burning requirement for spell resistance passive's activation when they also remove all chances for NPCs to proc these effects. Makes it a pure pvp passive. Should proc with any statuseffect that deals spell damage or just give an increased flat value similar to what was done to nord and dunmer.

Alternatively, the extra Spell Resistance gained when under a status effect could be changed into a different stat boost. For instance, the passive could grant the base 2310 Spell Resistance and then 1000 Max Stamina, reflecting the bonus in Endurance that Bretons had in previous TES titles. Or it could add 1000 Max Health.

MashmalloMan

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Since racials are based on ZOS's set standards, this is fairly easy to compare objectively:

1-4 piece set effects = 1 point (129 weapon/spell damage, 129 stam/hp/mag regen, 1206 hp, 1096 magicka/stamina, etc, you get the idea).

5 piece set effects are often considered to be 2.325x stronger than a 1-4 piece bonus when they are completely static (no proc condition). For examples of this, please see Hundings Rage (weapon damage), Spriggan (penetration), etc or more importantly to Imperial vs Breton, Armor of the Seducer and Battlefield Acrobat.

Breton Total Set Weight = 5.608:

• 2k magicka = 1.825
• 130 magicka regen = 1
• -7% cost reduction = 1.628 (see spoiler below for math based on Armor of Seducer)
• 2310 spell resistance = 0.77 (1487 armor from 1pc is spell and physical so this is just above half of that for 0.77 as it's only spell resistance)
• +2310 spell resistance proc = 0.385 (This is subject to opinion, due to it being a proc for the same value of spell resistance, I feel half is more than fair. Context is key, in pvp against magicka characters, this is probably closer to 70-80% the value while maybe 30-50% the value in pve. It can't be any more than 0.77 at most.)

Imperial Total Set Weight = 5.808:

• 2k hp = 1.658
• 2k stamina = 1.825
• -6% cost reduction to everything = 2.325 (exact same bonus as 5pc Battlefield Acrobat)

So.... they're literally objectively balanced with a small difference of 0.2 in favor of Imperial, but this is only because I can't properly quantify the double spell resistance on Breton since it's a matter of opinion on how often that procs. If lets say I was less generous and it was equal to 0.585 (75% value of the base resistance) then both Imperial and Breton would have the exact same racial power at 5.808.

If you agree with my generous 50% power conclusion to the double spell resistance, then the only necessary buff Breton's would require is 1 of a few things to add that missing 0.2 power:

1. 155 magicka regen instead of 130 (+0.2)
2. -8% magicka cost reduction instead of -7% (+0.24)
3. This is more of a personal opinion, but: 1200 armor that can double on any status effect (more versatile, combined power of 1.3 to 1.6 instead of 1.0 to 1.2 from the current spell resistance, this would give the necessary bump of about +0.2)

Math for Breton cost reduction:

• Armor of the Seducer 5 pc bonus = -10% magicka cost reduction. This should follow the 2.325x rule so..
• 10/2.325 = -4.3%
• Take 4.3% and see how many times it fits into the 7% from Breton:
• 7/4.3 = 1.628

@MashmalloMan I respect the method, but have a few comments. I agree with your analysis of the first 2310 Spell Resistance, however the additional 2310 can only be obtained by status effect procs, and the chance for NPC’s to apply those has been removed. In PVE this has zero value unless someone can name an encounter where a status effect is applied non-randomly.

Also the cost reduction is a tricky one. Seducer is the most obvious choice for comparison, but effectively is does the same thing as Magnus Gift set (over a long duration, with RNG). I believe the devs know that 10% cost reduction is not a balanced 5pc set bonus (nowhere near the Mag/s of Lich, Amber Plasm or Warlock), so when they adjusted Magnus (more recently) it was increased from 8% to 15%. It could be 1.628 set bonuses from Seducer, or it could be 1.121 based on Magnus.

Further adding to what Innos has said, the spell resistance bonus applied when under status effects seems to be applied at all times according to your math, mister Mash. I understand and respect what you are trying to calculate, but furthermore from what I can deduce, 2310 spell resistance, +1 extra magicka cost and 130 magicka recovery simply does not stack up against 6% stamina and health cost redux and 2000 health.

I also have to disagree with your weight attributed to the 6% overall cost redux. If you divide the weight you applied to the cost reduction of magicka on its own (1.628) by the total percentage of magicka cost redux applied to Bretons by 7 (the total cost redux percentage), then you end up with 0.23 being the weight of each individual percentage of cost redux applied to a character. This means that, going by your method, if Imperials get a 6% cost redux to each skill, this brings the total weight of Imperial cost redux up to 0.23X3X6, which equals 4.14, rather than 2.325. This brings the Imperial up to a staggering set weight of 7.623, compared to the Breton's measly 5.608.

I know you are going by the standard set by the set Battlefield Acrobat, but given the wide margin, I think you can agree that this is unbalanced. If Bretons had gotten a +6% overall cost reduction and a greater spell resistance to make up for the 2k health difference, I might be more inclined to agree, but right now, Imperials have gotten muscled up to the top of the meta in one fell swoop.

@BlissfulDelusions

1) The point of my post was to be as objective as possible using what I presume is ZOS's methodology and I believe I provided enough evidence to support that. Their viewpoint is not perfect and it primarly starts with 1-4 piece bonuses not being equal in power, thus making races with those undervalued bonuses getting lower overall budgets yet still being within budget based on ZOS's math. For a more obvious example, I don't believe 1096 stamina should be equal to 129 weapon damage, there was some justification for that when the +20% from CP was there, but it's now gone. 129 stam regen is certainly not equal either, yet Woodelf (and Breton) pulls from both of these undervalued stats which is why I feel they're 1 of the worst races in the game.

I think a more balanced approach given the recent CP rework and some overall improvements would be something like this for a few 1-4 piece bonuses that come to mind:

• 1096 1206 stamina/magicka. (1:1 with max hp, while still under the 1:100 rule of weapon/spell damage. Weapon and spell damage still come out on top for pushing dps)
• 129 140-150 stam/mag regen. (Obviously weaker bonuses than 129 weapon/spell damage)
• 129 200-300 hp regen. (Only really useful for pvp in it's current state, tons of sets in the game break the power conversion that other sets follow for hp regen exclusively just so theses sets have any worth which shows ZOS is aware this bonus sucks and is undervalued, yet refuse to fix them. Sets like Beekeeper, Troll king, and Endurance provide much more power than any similar set in their bracket. If 129 hp regen = 129 stam regen, then why is there no 5 piece set that gives 900 stam regen like Beekeeper? It's obviously under powered for 1-4 piece bonuses.)

So with that in mind, based on their math, the races are within 5-10% of each other.

Obviously in my opinion, cost reduction applied to everything (Acrobat/Imperial) is a lot stronger than only magicka cost reduction, so much stronger that I wouldn't say +66% power of magicka cost reduction on Seducer is enough vs Acrobat (6% vs 10%). The overall cost reduction applies to blocking, dodging, sprinting, ultimates, stamina, health, and magicka. Thats 7 different resources instead of 1, but that doesn't mean those 7 different resources are 1:1. There is many instances of bonuses in the game where when stats are double or even tripple dipped, yet they're not devided by the number of different stats given. For example, Shacklebreakers 2k stam + 2k mag VS Drauger Hulk's 2.5k stam, prismatic enchants provide +50% power vs normal 1 stat enchants. This idea of the more you pick the more you get is present in everything including Acrobat and Imperial.

So, for your example math of 0.23x3x6, I'd say thats a false equation in 2 ways. 1, they're not 1:1 because of the above described rule and 2, the bonus doesn't just apply to 3 resource types as mentioned above, t's at least 7, so if you really want to explode the numbers with the 1:1 mindset. Thats 0.23 * 7 * 6 = 9.66. This is obviously incorrect to how they chose to design Imperial and the Acrobat set, because all races are around 6.00 in power (if I remember correctly from 2 years ago, but not sure anymore, feel free to check other races if you like). If that were true then Acrobat would be used by everyone for being the most powerful set in the game, but it's not, in fact I'd argue it's pretty niche right now.

The only data to go by is the data provided between Acrobat and Seducer. Static (active all the time) set bonuses typically have a value of 2.325x a regular 1-4 piece bonus. This is why I assume -6% cost reduction to all abilities for Acrobat in ZOS's eyes is equal to 2.325 power and it's why I assume -10% Magicka cost reduction for Seducer is equal to 2.325 power. I don't have their spreadsheets, I have to go by examples in the game. You can agree or dissagree with them or the math, but I believe I provided enough information to validate my point.

Here is a quick list of examples to prove the 2.325 power rule:

1. Hundings Rage = 300 Weapon damage. 300/129 = 2.32558139548837
2. Spriggan's = 3460 physical penetration. 3460/1487 = 2.325832548755884
3. Leviathan = 1528 crit chance. 1528/657 = 2.32572298325723
4. Fortified Brass = 3460 armor. 3460/1487 = 2.325832548755884
5. Plague Doctor = 2804 health. 2804/1206 = 2.325041459369818
6. Drauger Hulk = 2550 stamina. 2550/1096 = 2.326642335766423

Here are some sets that don't follow the rule which goes against the arguement I'm making, but I think these rarer instances exist in such high power because the related bonuses for the 1-4 pieces are undervalued and I'm pretty sure ZOS is aware of this. Bonuses like regen and especially health regen should not be 1:1 with weapon damage, 129 health regen is no way equal to 129 weapon damage, most would agree. ZOS seems to have buffed the crap out of the 5 piece bonus on these sets below to give the sets any notable value which is funny because if they're aware these stats suck.. why do they not buff the base value of these bonuses for every other set in the game? It doesn't make any sense, so come to your own conclusion on these ones:

1. Beekeeper = 900 health recovery/129 = 6.976744186046512 (This shows it would be 3x as powerful vs the above set list, yet no one uses it, so the standard for health recovery is completely off)
   • Lets say 900 is correct and is equal to the 2.325 power rule. That would mean all 1-4 piece bonuses for health regen should be closer to 387 to match, and honestly... I could see this value being validated seeing as it's 1 of the worst bonuses in the game. Food for thought.
2. Impregnable Armor = 1650 crit resist/424 = 3.891509433962264
   • Using the same method as Beekeeper assuming 1650 = 2.325.. 1-4 piece crit resist bonuses should be 710.

2) Breton's spell resistance bonus is 2 sided, which is why I seperated them. First 2310 spell resistance is active 100% of the time for 0.77 power , the second I justified my reasoning and landed on 50% power for 0.385 of the budget. I'd suggest reading my original post again. In a later comment I also said I could see an argument for 30% power on that which would help justify any argument to make Breton's have -9% cost reduction instead of -7%.

Vetixio

They should take the spell damage they are giving Orcs 🙄 and give it to Bretons and give Orcs their 2k stam back. They should give the weapon damage they are giving Altmer 🙄 and give it to Nords and give Altmer some magicka regen and a weakness to magic like in previous TES games. The magicka bonuses should be taken off Khajiit and given to Imperials and Khajiit should become stam focused, like they always have been. Khajiits along with Orcs they are the only races in all TES games to never recieve any magic skills bonuses yet ZOS is giving them and Orcs magic bonuses
P.S Buff Redguard give them some some weapon damage and max health and give Bosmer their stealth back!

xaraan

Bretons do need a little bit better tuning on their racials.