All Light, Medium, and Heavy Attacks now dynamically scale with your highest offensive stats

Rebiludo

It's just stats scale or swords can deal magic damage, and staves physical damage for exemple ?

Sahidom

This change SO reminds me of the old PVP Ultimate Online build that utilized the Halberd hit right after the Energy Bolt gank hits. The only thing missing now is Tracking to run down other players.

ExistingRug61

Rebiludo wrote: »

It's just stats scale or swords can deal magic damage, and staves physical damage for exemple ?

I believe it is just the scaling. Weapons still do their normal damage type.
The reference to swords a few posts back was related to the fact that in the DW line (and 2h I believe) swords are the only weapon that have a passive that is directly useful for a magicka character, as it is +damage done % instead of a boost to physical stat/scaling.

MashmalloMan

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Rebiludo wrote: »

It's just stats scale or swords can deal magic damage, and staves physical damage for exemple ?

I believe it is just the scaling. Weapons still do their normal damage type.
The reference to swords a few posts back was related to the fact that in the DW line (and 2h I believe) swords are the only weapon that have a passive that is directly useful for a magicka character, as it is +damage done % instead of a boost to physical stat/scaling.

True. If you want to use 2H or DW for magicka, aim to grab swords for +6% damage done right now, it rivals the 8% single target dmg of fire staves or the 8% aoe damage of shock staves. Basically a lower value, but affects both types.

Penetration and Crit on sets and "other" sources are suppose to be combined this patch as well, yet only 2 of the newer crafted sets show this in effect which has lead many of us to believe they are still in the process of auditting all sources. What will happen to major/minor prophecy? What about the Medium vs Light armor crit/pen passives? We don't know yet what that will look like.

Point is, if they do combine them entirely, Daggers and Maces (bow for crit too) would start to be useful for magicka as well as they would provide penetration and crit that you could actually use. As of week 1, they are still shown as Weapon Crit and Physical penetration, so they continue to be rather useless in comparison to Swords.

Axe bleeds I'm not currently sure if they dynamically scale, but my guess is they don't and only look for wpd/stamina. Also because anything from these weapons like the bleed or light attacks are physical damage, they scale poorly with your cp. This makes stamina weapons for magicka characters less punishing in no cp situations.

DW and 2H have higher base weapon/spell damage than equiping a bow or staff. Yes, DW has the same 1335 tooltip, however, your second DW weapon gets 6% of the damage on the weapon. 6% of 1335 is about +80 damage (scales with major/minor brutality, etc.). (edit: this 6% only applies to weapon damage, comment below mentions how there is in fact a hidden 17.8% bonus from the off hand though)

2H starts with 1571 damage, which is 236 more. DW can also have 2 different traits, so using a nirn on your mainhand for +200 damage and something like sharpenned/precise on your offhand effectively gives you a free bonus you wouldn't otherwise have with a staff or bow.

Next, what I consider the auxillary passives:

Destruction Staves:

• Magicka return on a kill. Light/heavy attack/destruction staff skill must be the final blow, when you consider your main killing blow is usually a higher damage class skill Iike if your a sorc with endless fury, the passive quickly becomes pretty rare imo.
• Unique bonuses to heavy attacks.
• 10% spell penetration (only applies to light/heavy attack/destruction staff skills). This passive is basically half the value of what maces provide, although maces currently only affect physical penetration unfortunately. Maces on the other hand, give the 20% to ALL your damage, not just destruction staff attacks.

2H:

• +10% damage to your next direct damage attack after a heavy attack. Scales perfectly fine for magicka attacks.
• +30% stamina regen for 10s after a kill (does not matter what lands the final blow, just have to be holding a 2H). Super helpful for pvp.
• 50% damage done to 3 nearby enemies when light/heavy attacking a target. I believe the range is 5m.

DW:

• +20% dmg with DW abilities to enemies under 25% health. Skills do not dynamically scale, but light/heavy attacks do. This passive applies to them.
• +15% dmg with DW abilities to CC'ed enemies. Again, skills aren't useful, but this applies to your light/heavy attacks which now dynamically scale.

So honestly, imo, you don't really lose that much by going from staff to DW/2H swords IF you're not using any staff abilities to begin with. The passives for DW and 2H scale much better than staves do because they apply in more situations. 6% damage done is so close to the 8% single or aoe multiplier, while applying to everything you do.

Your base damage will be around +300 higher after modifiers just by holding these melee weapons, light/heavy attacks of melee weapons are also suppose to be 10% stronger than ranged weapons and finally, your light/heavy attacks get extra bonuses to help overcome the fact that they continue to do physical damage (bad cp scaling).

Thats my take.

ExistingRug61

MashmalloMan wrote: »

DW and 2H have higher base weapon/spell damage than equiping a bow or staff. Yes, DW has the same 1335 tooltip, however, your second DW weapon gets 6% of the damage on the weapon. 6% of 1335 is about +80 damage (scales with major/minor brutality, etc.). 2H starts with 1571 damage, which is 236 more. DW can also have 2 different traits, so using a nirn on your mainhand for +200 damage and something like sharpenned/precise on your offhand effectively gives you a free bonus you wouldn't otherwise have with a staff or bow.

Just to add to this:
The Dual wield off hand actually adds ~17.8% of its damage just for being equipped (with no passives). I am not sure if this mechanic is described anywhere, but you can see the change in the character sheet.
This is increased to ~23.8% by the +6% dual wield expert passive. Although note that currently this only applies to weapon damage.
So dual wield base damage is actually 1572wd/sd (so its basically the same as 2H), and increases to 1652wd/1572sd because of the passive.

Note that even with the higher base damage, the swords bonus, and the better scaling of melee vs range LA, I still think that dw swords or 2h sword on a mag build will be behind staff currently for most mag builds, primarily due to the lack of crit, pen and cp.
Although there may be some circumstances in nocp pvp where specific builds that don't have much crit or pen, and rather go all in on spell damage will be comparable under the current system.

MashmalloMan

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

DW and 2H have higher base weapon/spell damage than equiping a bow or staff. Yes, DW has the same 1335 tooltip, however, your second DW weapon gets 6% of the damage on the weapon. 6% of 1335 is about +80 damage (scales with major/minor brutality, etc.). 2H starts with 1571 damage, which is 236 more. DW can also have 2 different traits, so using a nirn on your mainhand for +200 damage and something like sharpenned/precise on your offhand effectively gives you a free bonus you wouldn't otherwise have with a staff or bow.

Just to add to this:
The Dual wield off hand actually adds ~17.8% of its damage just for being equipped (with no passives). I am not sure if this mechanic is described anywhere, but you can see the change in the character sheet.
This is increased to ~23.8% by the +6% dual wield expert passive. Although note that currently this only applies to weapon damage.
So dual wield base damage is actually 1572wd/sd (so its basically the same as 2H), and increases to 1652wd/1572sd because of the passive.

Note that even with the higher base damage, the swords bonus, and the better scaling of melee vs range LA, I still think that dw swords or 2h sword on a mag build will be behind staff currently for most mag builds, primarily due to the lack of crit, pen and cp.
Although there may be some circumstances in nocp pvp where specific builds that don't have much crit or pen, and rather go all in on spell damage will be comparable under the current system.

Wow did not know that, very cool!

ExistingRug61

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

DW and 2H have higher base weapon/spell damage than equiping a bow or staff. Yes, DW has the same 1335 tooltip, however, your second DW weapon gets 6% of the damage on the weapon. 6% of 1335 is about +80 damage (scales with major/minor brutality, etc.). 2H starts with 1571 damage, which is 236 more. DW can also have 2 different traits, so using a nirn on your mainhand for +200 damage and something like sharpenned/precise on your offhand effectively gives you a free bonus you wouldn't otherwise have with a staff or bow.

Just to add to this:
The Dual wield off hand actually adds ~17.8% of its damage just for being equipped (with no passives). I am not sure if this mechanic is described anywhere, but you can see the change in the character sheet.
This is increased to ~23.8% by the +6% dual wield expert passive. Although note that currently this only applies to weapon damage.
So dual wield base damage is actually 1572wd/sd (so its basically the same as 2H), and increases to 1652wd/1572sd because of the passive.

Note that even with the higher base damage, the swords bonus, and the better scaling of melee vs range LA, I still think that dw swords or 2h sword on a mag build will be behind staff currently for most mag builds, primarily due to the lack of crit, pen and cp.
Although there may be some circumstances in nocp pvp where specific builds that don't have much crit or pen, and rather go all in on spell damage will be comparable under the current system.

Wow did not know that, very cool!

Yeah as I said I don't know if the 17.8% is explained anywhere in game. And while I may not be knowledgeable in every aspect of this game, as a magblade main who has persisted with DW (for style points, even though it's been nowhere near optimal for quite a while), this is one area is definitely within my scope of experience. And obviously for that reason the changed scaling is quite pleasing to me.

ccfeeling

I like this change !

idk

@Mobius0

Using a 2H sword I can confirm that using a spell damage pot increased the damage. However, the HAs were significantly less with a 2H sword vs a frost staff. I used the frost staff to eliminate the damage boost to fire staff HA from the skill lines passives since Fire staves do more HA damage due to tri-focus and then ancient knowledge will depend on what type of staff one was using.

2H
4309 no crit
6464 w/crit
4653 w/spell power potion

Frost
7727 no crit
123594 w/crit
8328 w/spell power potion.

While the damage for the 2H is hitting for significantly more than it is on live, it still pales greatly to the staff on a magicka based character. I expect the weapon is still doing physical damage.

BTW, this character has old gear on. I used it because I knew it did not have any special weapons or mythic and the weapons I used in testing did not match any equipped sets. In other words, there is nothing in this build to skew the results for a magicka based character.

Edit: I am guessing as to why the damage is still much lower. I just wanted to be clear.

ExistingRug61

idk wrote: »

@Mobius0

Using a 2H sword I can confirm that using a spell damage pot increased the damage. However, the HAs were significantly less with a 2H sword vs a frost staff. I used the frost staff to eliminate the damage boost to fire staff HA from the skill lines passives since Fire staves do more HA damage due to tri-focus and then ancient knowledge will depend on what type of staff one was using.

2H
4309 no crit
6464 w/crit
4653 w/spell power potion

Frost
7727 no crit
123594 w/crit
8328 w/spell power potion.

While the damage for the 2H is hitting for significantly more than it is on live, it still pales greatly to the staff on a magicka based character. I expect the weapon is still doing physical damage.

BTW, this character has old gear on. I used it because I knew it did not have any special weapons or mythic and the weapons I used in testing did not match any equipped sets. In other words, there is nothing in this build to skew the results for a magicka based character.

Edit: I am guessing as to why the damage is still much lower. I just wanted to be clear.

@idk
Thanks for posting values.

Out of interest, do you know what CP you had for this?
And what your physical vs spell penetration were?
Given you have eliminated crit as a variable by posting both crit and non crit values, the only things I can think of that should cause a difference in the result (assuming weapons still do their normal damage types) are penetration, elemental expert vs mighty, staff expert vs physical weapons expert, and elfborn vs precise strikes for the crits. I just wanted to try to establish if these are the cause of the difference or if something else is at play.

Sorry for all the questions, I would test this myself but am on xbox.

Also, is there a typo in your value for frost HA crit -123k seems just a little high, I assume this is meant to be ~12k?

Rex-Umbra

Been asking for this since day 1. Elemental staffs just never felt appropriate on a nb.

sentientomega

satanio wrote: »

Kosef wrote: »

But do heavy attacks return the highest stat for sustain no matter the weapon or does it still only return its respective stat?

no.
Staves return magicka.
DW, 2h, bow, SnB stamina.
Always.

Frankly, with this change, the resource return should also be based on the highest offensive stat. I just don't really see the point, otherwise.

idk

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

@Mobius0

Using a 2H sword I can confirm that using a spell damage pot increased the damage. However, the HAs were significantly less with a 2H sword vs a frost staff. I used the frost staff to eliminate the damage boost to fire staff HA from the skill lines passives since Fire staves do more HA damage due to tri-focus and then ancient knowledge will depend on what type of staff one was using.

2H
4309 no crit
6464 w/crit
4653 w/spell power potion

Frost
7727 no crit
123594 w/crit
8328 w/spell power potion.

While the damage for the 2H is hitting for significantly more than it is on live, it still pales greatly to the staff on a magicka based character. I expect the weapon is still doing physical damage.

BTW, this character has old gear on. I used it because I knew it did not have any special weapons or mythic and the weapons I used in testing did not match any equipped sets. In other words, there is nothing in this build to skew the results for a magicka based character.

Edit: I am guessing as to why the damage is still much lower. I just wanted to be clear.

Thanks for posting values.

Out of interest, do you know what CP you had for this?
And what your physical vs spell penetration were?
Given you have eliminated crit as a variable by posting both crit and non crit values, the only things I can think of that should cause a difference in the result (assuming weapons still do their normal damage types) are penetration, elemental expert vs mighty, staff expert vs physical weapons expert, and elfborn vs precise strikes for the crits. I just wanted to try to establish if these are the cause of the difference or if something else is at play.

Sorry for all the questions, I would test this myself but am on xbox.

Also, is there a typo in your value for frost HA crit -123k seems just a little high, I assume this is meant to be ~12k?

@ExistingRug61

Ugh, forgot about CP effect. I have 40 pts into spell pen and 35 into staff expert. I did remove both this morning and did not redistribute them and the frost staff HA was still 6221 without crit and 10140 with crit. I have nothing added to physical penetration. I also used a standard dummy that does not provide any buffs or debuffs.

I removed all blue CP. Frost HA was 4547. So it was closer, but still slightly higher than with the 2H. However, the entire set of numbers do show that a HA is still doing the same type of damage that is native to the weapon and as such using a weapon that does not match the build leads to a significantly lower HA.

I am wearing magicka gear which also boosts the HA some and that is likely the little bit of difference left.

In other words, the HA might not be hitting like a wet noodle anymore but it is still super weak. Only a pure hybrid build, which is still weaker than a pure build, will benefit from this change.

idk

sentientomega wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

Kosef wrote: »

But do heavy attacks return the highest stat for sustain no matter the weapon or does it still only return its respective stat?

no.
Staves return magicka.
DW, 2h, bow, SnB stamina.
Always.

Frankly, with this change, the resource return should also be based on the highest offensive stat. I just don't really see the point, otherwise.

@sentientomega If you look at my numbers you will see there is no point. Swords HA will still hit for less than a staff because of CP and gear. It is significant.

Mobius0

Hmm, if major sorcery increases the damage, then it must be based on your spell damage.

Could the damage difference simply be due to the variance in heavy attack damages? It's already known that the damages vary based on the weapon skill, because of their cast times, etc..

I'd be more interested in comparing Light Attacks than heavy attacks, since that should give you a better base metric.

If major sorcery is increasing the damage, it just doesn't seem like it could be doing physical damage.

Another good test would be to use a debuff like Elemental Drain to see if spell pen impacts the damage.

JinMori

Husan wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

Yes.

Nice! Thanks.

Can't wait to bring back dual wield magplar

Oh that's actually a pretty good thing.

About the best news from the patch notes if that's the case.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

Yes please, if someone can clarify just how this would change a weapons dmg:

If I'm using a bow, but my highest resource is magicka, will it also scale from spell dmg? Or will it continue to scale from weapon dmg, but the added scaling that would have come from stamina now comes form magicka???

My hope and assumption is that weapons will continue to scale according to their corresponding dmg type (weapon dmg vs spell dmg) but that the added scaling would come from your highest resource, instead of its corresponding resource (stamina vs magicka).

Overall, Im really excited about this change, and think its a step in the right direction.

JinxxND

Husan wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

Yes.

Nice! Thanks.

Can't wait to bring back dual wield magplar

Only problem is that even if you do that you still are missing a lot of penetration from running a main stat weapon which is the huge issue on top of ranged light attack weave. So in the case of a magblade for ex. you will get more dmg on your skills from a 2h sword or dw sword setup but you lose all the ranged light attack weave, penetration on that light attack weave, ranged enchant which is also affected by penetration which if you look in any parse or dps test is a lot of your damage, how ever on a melee magplar for instances because it's hard to light attack weave with jabs you might be better off with dw or 2h swords and getting that range utility from a back bar resto or back bar a ice staff and use ele drain for the debuff

universal_wrath

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

Yes please, if someone can clarify just how this would change a weapons dmg:

If I'm using a bow, but my highest resource is magicka, will it also scale from spell dmg? Or will it continue to scale from weapon dmg, but the added scaling that would have come from stamina now comes form magicka???

My hope and assumption is that weapons will continue to scale according to their corresponding dmg type (weapon dmg vs spell dmg) but that the added scaling would come from your highest resource, instead of its corresponding resource (stamina vs magicka).

Overall, Im really excited about this change, and think its a step in the right direction.

Weapons will scale the same way ultimates do. Without CP and penetration and special passives, you would do damage with bow LA and HA with same numbers as with destruction staff or 2h. However, some weapons have special passives that help with there damage like inferno staff 8% single target or daul wield 6% damage done. Also, some classes like sorcerer for example buffs lightning and physical damage, warden buffs mqgic and frost...etc.

Mobius0

universal_wrath wrote: »

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

Yes please, if someone can clarify just how this would change a weapons dmg:

If I'm using a bow, but my highest resource is magicka, will it also scale from spell dmg? Or will it continue to scale from weapon dmg, but the added scaling that would have come from stamina now comes form magicka???

My hope and assumption is that weapons will continue to scale according to their corresponding dmg type (weapon dmg vs spell dmg) but that the added scaling would come from your highest resource, instead of its corresponding resource (stamina vs magicka).

Overall, Im really excited about this change, and think its a step in the right direction.

Weapons will scale the same way ultimates do. Without CP and penetration and special passives, you would do damage with bow LA and HA with same numbers as with destruction staff or 2h. However, some weapons have special passives that help with there damage like inferno staff 8% single target or daul wield 6% damage done. Also, some classes like sorcerer for example buffs lightning and physical damage, warden buffs mqgic and frost...etc.

You say this but where are you getting this information?

universal_wrath

Mobius0 wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

Yes please, if someone can clarify just how this would change a weapons dmg:

If I'm using a bow, but my highest resource is magicka, will it also scale from spell dmg? Or will it continue to scale from weapon dmg, but the added scaling that would have come from stamina now comes form magicka???

My hope and assumption is that weapons will continue to scale according to their corresponding dmg type (weapon dmg vs spell dmg) but that the added scaling would come from your highest resource, instead of its corresponding resource (stamina vs magicka).

Overall, Im really excited about this change, and think its a step in the right direction.

Weapons will scale the same way ultimates do. Without CP and penetration and special passives, you would do damage with bow LA and HA with same numbers as with destruction staff or 2h. However, some weapons have special passives that help with there damage like inferno staff 8% single target or daul wield 6% damage done. Also, some classes like sorcerer for example buffs lightning and physical damage, warden buffs mqgic and frost...etc.

You say this but where are you getting this information?

From patch note and live server?

Regarding passives of weapons and claases, thus information is from live server. Weapon scaling from patch note, I'm assuming it is the same way as ultimate becauae it is worded in a similar way to ultimates scaling few patches ago.

Mobius0

universal_wrath wrote: »

From patch note and live server?

I read the patch notes and all it says is that they scale with your highest stat. Nowhere did I read that it will work like ultimates. Have you tested it yourself on PTS?

I plan on testing it myself, but my PTS download probably won't finish until tomorrow. If no one else has tested it properly by then, I will post my results.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

universal_wrath wrote: »

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

Yes please, if someone can clarify just how this would change a weapons dmg:

If I'm using a bow, but my highest resource is magicka, will it also scale from spell dmg? Or will it continue to scale from weapon dmg, but the added scaling that would have come from stamina now comes form magicka???

My hope and assumption is that weapons will continue to scale according to their corresponding dmg type (weapon dmg vs spell dmg) but that the added scaling would come from your highest resource, instead of its corresponding resource (stamina vs magicka).

Overall, Im really excited about this change, and think its a step in the right direction.

Weapons will scale the same way ultimates do. Without CP and penetration and special passives, you would do damage with bow LA and HA with same numbers as with destruction staff or 2h. However, some weapons have special passives that help with there damage like inferno staff 8% single target or daul wield 6% damage done. Also, some classes like sorcerer for example buffs lightning and physical damage, warden buffs mqgic and frost...etc.

My main questions I guess is what scales what, and at what part of the equation?

Will your max resource force your weapon to scale with that resources corresponding dmg type? If I have higher magicka, does that mean I need to build for spell dmg? Or can I build for weapon dmg, and not have to worry about lost dmg because I have high magicka instead of stamina?

And where does CP calculate in all this, because I'm assuming it adds onto the back end, regardless of your stats from gear. So I would still need to build for physical dmg, even though i have higher magicka????

@Mobius0 Maybe you can shed more light when you start testing things?

Mobius0

I'm actually hoping that it's converted to spell and or physical damage depending on your stat. I think the way you want it would be beneficial to less people.

But I believe they are also condensing all penetration into one stat, so if you shift your build around slightly you can probably do about the same DPS as you would with the opposite damage stat. Clearly spell damage affects it, and so should penetration. Then that just leaves things like +"magic" damage, like War Maiden, which may not boost it. But that's not really a big deal.

For me, if this is implemented well, I may finally play melee magblade again, since I can actually DW and not suck.

universal_wrath

Mobius0 wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

From patch note and live server?

I read the patch notes and all it says is that they scale with your highest stat. Nowhere did I read that it will work like ultimates. Have you tested it yourself on PTS?

I plan on testing it myself, but my PTS download probably won't finish until tomorrow. If no one else has tested it properly by then, I will post my results.

You are correct, Patch note did say that LA and HA will work like ultimates, I'm just assuming they would, because if they don't, they would just complicated things unnecessarily.

Mobius0 wrote: »

I'm actually hoping that it's converted to spell and or physical damage depending on your stat. I think the way you want it would be beneficial to less people.

But I believe they are also condensing all penetration into one stat, so if you shift your build around slightly you can probably do about the same DPS as you would with the opposite damage stat. Clearly spell damage affects it, and so should penetration. Then that just leaves things like +"magic" damage, like War Maiden, which may not boost it. But that's not really a big deal.

For me, if this is implemented well, I may finally play melee magblade again, since I can actually DW and not suck.

Soul trap works in a similar way
It scales with highest offensive stats and does damage accordingly.

YandereGirlfriend

I would imagine that Light Attacks retain their native damage type simply because that's the easiest to implement solution and that's what I generally expect ZOS to do in any given situation.

But I do think that Critical Chance/Damage and Penetration will be unified at some point in the future so while this change might only bring us half-way to the Promised Land, the second half is likely on the horizon.

I also want to point out that it is really not a huge damage decrease to swap around some CP from the inefficient diminishing return cost stars and place them into Light Attack and Penetration for the native damage type of the weapon that you are using. It costs you, what, ~1-2% off a couple of pure build CP stars but you are gaining ~3500 Penetration, 15% to your Critical Damage, and ~25 to your Light Attacks, which, IMO, makes the overall trade worth it.

MashmalloMan

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I would imagine that Light Attacks retain their native damage type simply because that's the easiest to implement solution and that's what I generally expect ZOS to do in any given situation.

But I do think that Critical Chance/Damage and Penetration will be unified at some point in the future so while this change might only bring us half-way to the Promised Land, the second half is likely on the horizon.

I also want to point out that it is really not a huge damage decrease to swap around some CP from the inefficient diminishing return cost stars and place them into Light Attack and Penetration for the native damage type of the weapon that you are using. It costs you, what, ~1-2% off a couple of pure build CP stars but you are gaining ~3500 Penetration, 15% to your Critical Damage, and ~25 to your Light Attacks, which, IMO, makes the overall trade worth it.

Yep. Even less of a big deal right now because penetration cap is VERY easy to hit this patch with 9k alone from major/minor breach. On magicka you need 0 points in a competitive setting... but I guess that begs the question if this information is really relevant given the fact that you probably shouldn't be using melee weapons in a competitive trial scene. I guess it's up to who you run with.

Plus, CP is gonna be reworked entirely and Penetration/Crit still isn't combined on almost all of the sources in the game, despite claiming they would do so. We kind of need to wait to see what will happen in the next few weeks. Hopefully they at least update sets with updating the rest in U29.

Major/Minor prophecy.
Sets.
CP 3% crit passives.
CP Penetration stars.
Light armor vs Medium armor.

ExistingRug61

idk wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

@Mobius0

Using a 2H sword I can confirm that using a spell damage pot increased the damage. However, the HAs were significantly less with a 2H sword vs a frost staff. I used the frost staff to eliminate the damage boost to fire staff HA from the skill lines passives since Fire staves do more HA damage due to tri-focus and then ancient knowledge will depend on what type of staff one was using.

2H
4309 no crit
6464 w/crit
4653 w/spell power potion

Frost
7727 no crit
123594 w/crit
8328 w/spell power potion.

While the damage for the 2H is hitting for significantly more than it is on live, it still pales greatly to the staff on a magicka based character. I expect the weapon is still doing physical damage.

BTW, this character has old gear on. I used it because I knew it did not have any special weapons or mythic and the weapons I used in testing did not match any equipped sets. In other words, there is nothing in this build to skew the results for a magicka based character.

Edit: I am guessing as to why the damage is still much lower. I just wanted to be clear.

Thanks for posting values.

Out of interest, do you know what CP you had for this?
And what your physical vs spell penetration were?
Given you have eliminated crit as a variable by posting both crit and non crit values, the only things I can think of that should cause a difference in the result (assuming weapons still do their normal damage types) are penetration, elemental expert vs mighty, staff expert vs physical weapons expert, and elfborn vs precise strikes for the crits. I just wanted to try to establish if these are the cause of the difference or if something else is at play.

Sorry for all the questions, I would test this myself but am on xbox.

Also, is there a typo in your value for frost HA crit -123k seems just a little high, I assume this is meant to be ~12k?

@ExistingRug61

Ugh, forgot about CP effect. I have 40 pts into spell pen and 35 into staff expert. I did remove both this morning and did not redistribute them and the frost staff HA was still 6221 without crit and 10140 with crit. I have nothing added to physical penetration. I also used a standard dummy that does not provide any buffs or debuffs.

I removed all blue CP. Frost HA was 4547. So it was closer, but still slightly higher than with the 2H. However, the entire set of numbers do show that a HA is still doing the same type of damage that is native to the weapon and as such using a weapon that does not match the build leads to a significantly lower HA.

I am wearing magicka gear which also boosts the HA some and that is likely the little bit of difference left.

In other words, the HA might not be hitting like a wet noodle anymore but it is still super weak. Only a pure hybrid build, which is still weaker than a pure build, will benefit from this change.

@idk
Thanks for testing that. That confirms what I expected. So while they are now better there is still a reasonable gap. This will close somewhat if crit/pen is combined in a future update as that will eliminate some of the difference due to the weapons still using their native damage type. But even then there will still be a gap due to cp unless you split between staff expert/physical weapons expert and elemental expert/mighty and even if crit is unified there’s still different crit damage from elf born/precise strikes. And such a split certainly isn’t optimal under the current cp system. Although I guess you could only use melee weapons and only invest in physical weapons expert on a mag build, but then you can’t HA for magicka. Maybe a different story in nocp though.

UppGRAYxDD

So, a medium armor stamina build running all the damage possible will hit hard hvy attacks with an undodgeable lightning or resto staff?

idk

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

@Mobius0

Using a 2H sword I can confirm that using a spell damage pot increased the damage. However, the HAs were significantly less with a 2H sword vs a frost staff. I used the frost staff to eliminate the damage boost to fire staff HA from the skill lines passives since Fire staves do more HA damage due to tri-focus and then ancient knowledge will depend on what type of staff one was using.

2H
4309 no crit
6464 w/crit
4653 w/spell power potion

Frost
7727 no crit
123594 w/crit
8328 w/spell power potion.

While the damage for the 2H is hitting for significantly more than it is on live, it still pales greatly to the staff on a magicka based character. I expect the weapon is still doing physical damage.

BTW, this character has old gear on. I used it because I knew it did not have any special weapons or mythic and the weapons I used in testing did not match any equipped sets. In other words, there is nothing in this build to skew the results for a magicka based character.

Edit: I am guessing as to why the damage is still much lower. I just wanted to be clear.

Thanks for posting values.

Out of interest, do you know what CP you had for this?
And what your physical vs spell penetration were?
Given you have eliminated crit as a variable by posting both crit and non crit values, the only things I can think of that should cause a difference in the result (assuming weapons still do their normal damage types) are penetration, elemental expert vs mighty, staff expert vs physical weapons expert, and elfborn vs precise strikes for the crits. I just wanted to try to establish if these are the cause of the difference or if something else is at play.

Sorry for all the questions, I would test this myself but am on xbox.

Also, is there a typo in your value for frost HA crit -123k seems just a little high, I assume this is meant to be ~12k?

@ExistingRug61

Ugh, forgot about CP effect. I have 40 pts into spell pen and 35 into staff expert. I did remove both this morning and did not redistribute them and the frost staff HA was still 6221 without crit and 10140 with crit. I have nothing added to physical penetration. I also used a standard dummy that does not provide any buffs or debuffs.

I removed all blue CP. Frost HA was 4547. So it was closer, but still slightly higher than with the 2H. However, the entire set of numbers do show that a HA is still doing the same type of damage that is native to the weapon and as such using a weapon that does not match the build leads to a significantly lower HA.

I am wearing magicka gear which also boosts the HA some and that is likely the little bit of difference left.

In other words, the HA might not be hitting like a wet noodle anymore but it is still super weak. Only a pure hybrid build, which is still weaker than a pure build, will benefit from this change.

Thanks for testing that. That confirms what I expected. So while they are now better there is still a reasonable gap. This will close somewhat if crit/pen is combined in a future update as that will eliminate some of the difference due to the weapons still using their native damage type. But even then there will still be a gap due to cp unless you split between staff expert/physical weapons expert and elemental expert/mighty and even if crit is unified there’s still different crit damage from elf born/precise strikes. And such a split certainly isn’t optimal under the current cp system. Although I guess you could only use melee weapons and only invest in physical weapons expert on a mag build, but then you can’t HA for magicka. Maybe a different story in nocp though.

Yes, everything would need to be combined, stam/mag, crit, WD/SP, penetration/resistance, for it to be the same and then CP would not be an issue. That would mean getting rid of the mag vs stam build and I do not think Zos wants to open that can of worms as it means another complete overhaul of the combat system.