Alliance War change to Rapid Maneuvers

Ursinos

Jayne_Doe wrote: »

Slowing down the process for all PvPers (and non-PvPers) to gain access to Rapids just so stamina-only players can get access to a heal earlier on? I think it's a bad move, unless their aim is really to slow down all new players and chars in Cyro so they're more vulnerable to more advanced players and take even longer to level their AP rank since it takes longer to get to PvP objectives.

Yup. Honestly, i'm wondering if this is more of a cash grab than an actual gameplay thing. They're trying to force to players to buy crowns to purchase mount upgrades.

johnebrown

I spent a tremendous amount of time (~4 yrs) building 3 accounts full of toons (54 total) & all three accounts are subbed.
Maybe 4 of the toons are level 5 Assault, 0 are level 6. All the rest are level 2 or 3. I've been using Rapids with them for years, and it's particularly helpful doing crafting writs and surveys.

Now you want to take away that ability, something I already earned, saying if I want to use it I have to level up in the skill line MORE, or PAY FOR it with Crowns. The only thing I hate more than Battlegrounds is Cyrodiil. And I'm Not going to level up ~50 toons in Assault or am I going to pay for it with crowns - that seems too much like blackmail, or as Ursinos put it, a cash grab, and for 50 toons it's a huge amount of crowns.

So do what you will, but this is just plain wrong.



.

Wolf_Eye

Not everyone has time to get to their quests on a slow horse.

Those same people probably won't have time to do a lot of PvP just to get a skill to get a faster horse.

So people whose time is limited to a few hours a day won't be able to play the game as much as they can now.

They may even have to quit and go play a game that lets them do things faster just so they can get a little bit of enjoyment before they have to go back to sleep and then back to work.

At the end of the day, video games are meant to be an enjoyable hobby.

If a video game is not enjoyable because it is purposely making your character too slow to get stuff done in a reasonable amount of time, then there's a problem.

Challenge and expediency should be balanced for maximum enjoyment across a wide audience

xaraan

Several people have said this idea that I'm going to repeat, and frankly you guys should take this advice:

Put vigor on the first skill of support and rapids on first of assault.

sentientomega

Swapping Siege Shield and Vigour really should be enough, as others have said, so that both Vigour and Rapid Manoeuver could be gained very easily and quickly. I think most of us would be happy with that, don't you?

Wolf_Eye

sentientomega wrote: »

Swapping Siege Shield and Vigour really should be enough, as others have said, so that both Vigour and Rapid Manoeuver could be gained very easily and quickly. I think most of us would be happy with that, don't you?

Agreed. Siege Shield is more of a dedicated PvP skill, something newbie PvPers probably won't use until they get the hang of their first couple of sieges; and by then, they probably would have gained enough AP to unlock it.

Rehdaun

I so can't wait for make a new toon now. /S

my mount speed be like


So helpful for new players and old players alike, NOT! But hey, at least my new mag toon will now unlock vigor early. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

Obsidian3

Of all the changes in six years, this one is the absolute worst. I don't have the time or the money to grind all my toons to Assualt lvl 5.

pieratsos

Do people seriously find it that hard to do a few BGs to unlock it?

Luckylancer

2 horrible experiences for cyrodiil:
1. Forced to play stam chracter without vigor, I was sentenced to death with my stamdk when anyone decide to atack me because I cant fill my hp bar
2. Traveling without major gallop and any mount speed upgrade, playing alts in cyrodiil will be impossible. Cyrodiil is designed to be big and major gallop is a big enabler in cyro's size

Devs pls dont ruin cyrodiil PvP experience. It will be horrible, you gonna have to change it next patch anyways. Just remove a skill from Assault skill line right now and find a new skill later. Make vigor 1st skill, make rapid maneuvers standalone.

mairwen85

xaraan wrote: »

Several people have said this idea that I'm going to repeat, and frankly you guys should take this advice:

Put vigor on the first skill of support and rapids on first of assault.

100% this, but for a few other alternative suggestions:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/537125/please-do-not-swap-rapids-with-vigor-qol-deterioration

BalticBlues

ZOS, please do not force all my worker ALTS into PvP.
They have almost no skill points but like using RAPIDS.
What could make sense: Make Vigor the FIRST UNDAUNTED skill.
Please do not force PvE beginners as easy prey into PvP.

(Trapping web - which almost nobody is using - could be removed or placed last in Undaunted).

Rianai

pieratsos wrote: »

Do people seriously find it that hard to do a few BGs to unlock it?

It is not a matter of "hard to get". I'm a PvP main, I'll get all alliance war skills sooner or later anyway. But on a low lvl char i have not much use for vigor (yes, even on stam chars) while rapids is something i absolutely want to get as soon as possible every time i create a new char, because it makes the entire following lvl process so much less painful. Srsly, mount speed is by far the worst thing about new chars - and rapids helps a little bit to offset this.

Just like grp mounts and crown riding lessons will do ...

Hurbster

Why not put the heal in the support line ?

SnowP

pieratsos wrote: »

Do people seriously find it that hard to do a few BGs to unlock it?

Simply put - yes.
My Chars have acummulated a playtime of more than 16727 hours without the need to do much pvp.

The main point here is that a skill that you aquired is taken away. This is more than taking away the advantage of having completed Mahlstrom on vet and not upgrading the weapons which was a step in the same direction.
This means every achievement in the game can be taken away - so where is now the motivation to achieve anything in this game at all?

This are just facts and a question - no demand no thread so if this also violates the rules than please close the forum as nearly all comments are "demands" to change some part of the game. - Do not take it seriously as this would also be a demand ...

Finedaible

While I do think it is painful not having access to a reliable heal when doing a stamina build, I think it is ten times worse not having the mobility from Rapid Maneuvers on a new character with how awful mount speed is at 0. Vigor would be better off as the first skill unlocked in the Support tree, maybe swap it out for Revealing Flare somewhere.

Finedaible

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

ZOS puts a battlefield taxi in the crown store.

ZOS creates demand for that battlefield taxi by taking Rapids away from a lot of people.

and yeah, this is likely why they are making the change at all if the past is any indication.

DisgracefulMind

Another nerf to bb pvp ;c

MincVinyl

It only takes 10 bg matches to unlock it assuming no kills....on low mmr toon that is barely a grind. Or in cyrodil most farming players easily make the 100k ap in an hour.....I'm sure anyone can manage to get it in two hours if they had to farm it.

---

That being said it wouldnt be hard to move it to a world skill slot. Which opens up for an actual useful pvp ability that is needed. Considering rapids used to be a form of snare/root immunity, a long duration mag/stam morph could easily be made available. Or a solo long duration and short duration 4 group member's morph could be made.

Sordidfairytale

MincVinyl wrote: »

It only takes 10 bg matches to unlock it assuming no kills....on low mmr toon that is barely a grind. Or in cyrodil most farming players easily make the 100k ap in an hour.....I'm sure anyone can manage to get it in two hours if they had to farm it.

---

That being said it wouldnt be hard to move it to a world skill slot. Which opens up for an actual useful pvp ability that is needed. Considering rapids used to be a form of snare/root immunity, a long duration mag/stam morph could easily be made available. Or a solo long duration and short duration 4 group member's morph could be made.

A group or AOE stealth ability could be handy.

MincVinyl

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

It only takes 10 bg matches to unlock it assuming no kills....on low mmr toon that is barely a grind. Or in cyrodil most farming players easily make the 100k ap in an hour.....I'm sure anyone can manage to get it in two hours if they had to farm it.

---

That being said it wouldnt be hard to move it to a world skill slot. Which opens up for an actual useful pvp ability that is needed. Considering rapids used to be a form of snare/root immunity, a long duration mag/stam morph could easily be made available. Or a solo long duration and short duration 4 group member's morph could be made.

A group or AOE stealth ability could be handy.

Only issue there is zos has never gotten stealth/counterplay to work properly. Besides that sounds more like an ultimate.

Sahidom

Re: Using Rapids Maneuvers to transit the land while leveling. You can use the Steed Mundus and two Exemplary Swift rings for +22% and with 120 in CP can get you up to +24% for nearly free and without level requirements.

Wolf_Eye

Sahidom wrote: »

Re: Using Rapids Maneuvers to transit the land while leveling. You can use the Steed Mundus and two Exemplary Swift rings for +22% and with 120 in CP can get you up to +24% for nearly free and without level requirements.

I don't think the Steed Mundus increases mount speed, only running speed. Same with Swift Rings.

Rapids is the only way to increase mount speed in the game.

pieratsos

SnowP wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Do people seriously find it that hard to do a few BGs to unlock it?

Simply put - yes.
My Chars have acummulated a playtime of more than 16727 hours without the need to do much pvp.

The main point here is that a skill that you aquired is taken away. This is more than taking away the advantage of having completed Mahlstrom on vet and not upgrading the weapons which was a step in the same direction.
This means every achievement in the game can be taken away - so where is now the motivation to achieve anything in this game at all?

This are just facts and a question - no demand no thread so if this also violates the rules than please close the forum as nearly all comments are "demands" to change some part of the game. - Do not take it seriously as this would also be a demand ...

Well it's not exactly taken away from you. It's getting swapped with another ability and it's really nothing like the vma weapons that weren't upgraded. You had to earn vma weapons by doing PvE end game content which to this day is considered very hard for the majority people.

Rapids was essentially given to everyone just by going into cyro at lvl 10. So let's please leave aside the achievement discussion cause spending 15 seconds at ur alliance base and completing one quest by talking to two npc's isn't much of an achievement. No need for hyperboles.

Also it really isn't that hard to get it. Every BG gives like 10k AP even if u lose. With ur alliance rank being that low u won't even face anyone really competent so the experience is going to be at least more enjoyable for someone who is new to pvp and even then u still don't have to actually pvp. Just don't go afk to not get kicked. In like a couple of hours ull have it. I would imagine that a couple of hours aren't really that much for someone with 16k+ hours of playing time.

I'm not saying that there is no better way to make vigor accessible earlier. But hyperboles like achievements taken away and having to do thousands of cyro quests are not really needed.

SnowP

pieratsos wrote: »

Well it's not exactly taken away from you.

This

but if your Assault skill line is too low to obtain the 3rd skill, you will have to level it in order to gain access to Rapid Maneuvers again.

means that the skill I could use before the patch is not accessible after the patch.

pieratsos wrote: »

You had to earn vma weapons by doing PvE end game content which to this day is considered very hard for the majority people.

I own those weapons an with this change I did not loose access to them I only lost the advantage over other players that did not have them.

pieratsos wrote: »

Rapids was essentially given to everyone just by going into cyro at lvl 10.

That is exactly the point you could have access to Rapids without the need to do PvP. And I did not even cheated on one char by taking the short way and leaving out the tutorial.

pieratsos wrote: »

Also it really isn't that hard to get it.

This is seen from a PvP perspektive. A PvE only player has 3 options to earn AP - login rewards, town quests and repairing walls.

pieratsos wrote: »

and even then u still don't have to actually pvp. Just don't go afk to not get kicked.

I would like such a player as much as a fake tank.

pieratsos wrote: »

In like a couple of hours ull have it. I would imagine that a couple of hours aren't really that much for someone with 16k+ hours of playing time.

I decided that I have better things to do. It is the same decision like I am not going to invest time to upgrade my vma weapons.

pieratsos

SnowP wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Well it's not exactly taken away from you.

This

but if your Assault skill line is too low to obtain the 3rd skill, you will have to level it in order to gain access to Rapid Maneuvers again.

means that the skill I could use before the patch is not accessible after the patch.

pieratsos wrote: »

You had to earn vma weapons by doing PvE end game content which to this day is considered very hard for the majority people.

I own those weapons an with this change I did not loose access to them I only lost the advantage over other players that did not have them.

pieratsos wrote: »

Rapids was essentially given to everyone just by going into cyro at lvl 10.

That is exactly the point you could have access to Rapids without the need to do PvP. And I did not even cheated on one char by taking the short way and leaving out the tutorial.

pieratsos wrote: »

Also it really isn't that hard to get it.

This is seen from a PvP perspektive. A PvE only player has 3 options to earn AP - login rewards, town quests and repairing walls.

pieratsos wrote: »

and even then u still don't have to actually pvp. Just don't go afk to not get kicked.

I would like such a player as much as a fake tank.

pieratsos wrote: »

In like a couple of hours ull have it. I would imagine that a couple of hours aren't really that much for someone with 16k+ hours of playing time.

I decided that I have better things to do. It is the same decision like I am not going to invest time to upgrade my vma weapons.

Yes if ur assault skill line is too low u don't have access to it. It was taken away from you in the same way vigor is freely handed to you. Aka the two abilities were swapped.

No it has nothing to do with an advantage over other players. Its about grinding end game content for hundreds of hours to get those weapons that are suddenly sub par and having to regrind the exact same content that you already did to get the rewards that you arguably already earned since the content is exactly the same. Not even close with earning rapids.

And that is exactly the point why it's not much of an achievement. You said it urself numerous times so far so again let's leave the achievement discussion out of it.

No this is not seen from a pvp perspective. This is from "earning ap" perspective. Numerous ways. Which one u choose is up to you.

Well if u have some sort of morale about the subject then don't walk around doing nothing. They will be extremely low mmr matches against people of sort of equal skill level. Test ur builds if u like to or just do something.

Well if u have better things to do then don't do it. That's ur choice.

Again there were better ways to do this cause both vigor and rapids are abilities that u need from the get go. But there is no need for hyperboles and drama like "taking ur achievements away" and "having to do thousands of quests". In the worst case scenario u have to do a few BGs against people of equal skill level to unlock some abilities that are locked behind a freaking pvp skill line. So pvp only makes sense that it would be some kind of involved.

SnowP

Maybe I am easier to understand if I translate the vma and rapid behavior to real world objects.
For vma:
A company sells you a house with a little garden and charges you 10k bucks. Some peole are charged only 8k some are charged 20k depending on the dice roll.
Now the company sells the house for 3k bucks only but if you are interested you can have a house with a little bigger garden for just the price you payed for your last house.
It is your choice to go for the bigger garden and pay the price of a house or just live with what you have.

For rapids mag player perspective:
A company sells a house and a parking space. You can buy the house for 1k bucks. If you want the parking space have to buy the house and pay additional 8k bucks. You decide you have no car and do not need the parking space so you pay only for the house. You live in this house add furniture and paint it the color you want.
Now the company decides we have to sell more parcing spaces.
They come to you and say next month we change the locks at your house if you want to live in it again, pay an additional 8k bucks. But we will give you keys for a parking space and if you pay the 8k your furniture will still be there.
Here the choice is to pay 8k to stay in your house or have no house at all.

The first only gives the impression old bucks are not valued.
The second violates a principle that I may call "sold is sold" because I do not know an appropriate english term for that.

Arunei

pieratsos wrote: »

Do people seriously find it that hard to do a few BGs to unlock it?

MincVinyl wrote: »

It only takes 10 bg matches to unlock it assuming no kills....on low mmr toon that is barely a grind. Or in cyrodil most farming players easily make the 100k ap in an hour.....I'm sure anyone can manage to get it in two hours if they had to farm it.

Does this logic not also apply to Vigor where it is now? If it's not that big a deal to get to Rank 5 what does it matter either way? Having access to a heal in just a few hours isn't going to make or break anyone's build in the long run, it's a matter of convenience, same with having Rapids. I have no strong opinion either way, but I can see how convenience for a majority of players, regardless of playstyle, is something people feel much stronger about as opposed to convenience that suits only Stam builds that rely on Vigor (aka Classes that don't have their own Stam heal or builds that don't use the heals that DW and 2H have) as their heal.

pieratsos

Arunei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Do people seriously find it that hard to do a few BGs to unlock it?

MincVinyl wrote: »

It only takes 10 bg matches to unlock it assuming no kills....on low mmr toon that is barely a grind. Or in cyrodil most farming players easily make the 100k ap in an hour.....I'm sure anyone can manage to get it in two hours if they had to farm it.

Does this logic not also apply to Vigor where it is now? If it's not that big a deal to get to Rank 5 what does it matter either way? Having access to a heal in just a few hours isn't going to make or break anyone's build in the long run, it's a matter of convenience, same with having Rapids. I have no strong opinion either way, but I can see how convenience for a majority of players, regardless of playstyle, is something people feel much stronger about as opposed to convenience that suits only Stam builds that rely on Vigor (aka Classes that don't have their own Stam heal or builds that don't use the heals that DW and 2H have) as their heal.

Its not that big of a deal indeed. Thats why u dont really see anyone complaining about not having vigor. But if u were to compare the two abilities and which one u need earlier then vigor is arguably more essential than rapids. Vigor is essential from a gameplay pov since its the main heal for the majority of stam classes and it also makes the learning experience for new players easier and more enjoyable. Rapids is mostly quality of life. Its very much needed but its still quality of life. Its not needed in combat. So technically if i wanted to have both abilities i would choose to have vigor first to perform better in combat and therefore get rapids easier.

pieratsos

SnowP wrote: »

Maybe I am easier to understand if I translate the vma and rapid behavior to real world objects.
For vma:
A company sells you a house with a little garden and charges you 10k bucks. Some peole are charged only 8k some are charged 20k depending on the dice roll.
Now the company sells the house for 3k bucks only but if you are interested you can have a house with a little bigger garden for just the price you payed for your last house.
It is your choice to go for the bigger garden and pay the price of a house or just live with what you have.

For rapids mag player perspective:
A company sells a house and a parking space. You can buy the house for 1k bucks. If you want the parking space have to buy the house and pay additional 8k bucks. You decide you have no car and do not need the parking space so you pay only for the house. You live in this house add furniture and paint it the color you want.
Now the company decides we have to sell more parcing spaces.
They come to you and say next month we change the locks at your house if you want to live in it again, pay an additional 8k bucks. But we will give you keys for a parking space and if you pay the 8k your furniture will still be there.
Here the choice is to pay 8k to stay in your house or have no house at all.

The first only gives the impression old bucks are not valued.
The second violates a principle that I may call "sold is sold" because I do not know an appropriate english term for that.

No its more like someone gave you a car toy (rapids) and now he took it back and gave u a different toy (vigor) and tells u if u also want the old toy u need to pay 5 cents, cause thats the real world evaluation for the 5 seconds u spent into ur alliance base to get rapids compared to the hundreds of hours people spent doing end game content.

You didnt earn rapids. It was just freely handed to you. The reality is that u are talking about an ability being locked behind a PVP skill line. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]