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Experience Versus Veteran Point Gain

ZOS_JessicaFolsom
ZOS_JessicaFolsom
Community Manager
Since we released Update 5, we've been paying very close attention to your concerns about the changes to Experience versus Veteran Point gain. We’d like to address some of those concerns.

First and foremost, we want everyone to know that we have zero interest in trying to extend your playtime by making you grind for experience. That includes grinding quests, monsters, dungeons, or anything else. If people aren't having a good time, we know they won’t stick around, so artificially inflating time spent playing is a self-defeating practice we aren't interested in. Our number one priority is fun (this is a game, after all!) and promoting a diverse array of activity options that allow you to pursue experience gains however you like.

While our intended goal is for it to take the average person 12-15 hours to gain a Veteran Rank, our QA team regularly gains Veteran Ranks on live in 8-10 hours or less. We've also witnessed you, our players, beating that time quite often, too. So, the 12-15 hour estimate is a baseline standard—mileage may vary (and it often does.)

We’re trying to be fairly open with our numbers by communicating our target leveling times, but in the interest of more clarity here are a few more details:
  • We add experience multipliers to quests, usually depending on the time taken and relative difficulty. Those experience multipliers look like this:
    • Very Easy = .1
    • Easy = .75
    • Standard = 1
    • Hard = 1.5
    • Very Hard = 2.25
  • Point of Interest completion also has these modifiers applied, but most are set to “Standard.”
  • Dungeon quest completion has an experience modifier of “Very Hard.”
  • We do clamp experience so a single event can’t get you more than 10 percent of your current level.

Our current course of action is to fix the existing bugs, and then analyze before adjusting experience to be even more generous. Again, our goal is not to force a grind, we just don’t want to over-compensate. Thank you all for continuing to share your feedback and concerns on this issue.
Jessica Folsom
Senior Community Manager (English) - The Elder Scrolls Online
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Staff Post
  • Rosveen
    Rosveen
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    You're still explaning it in time, not completed content. Which may work from the development side and for the Champion system when it's finalized, but is still a little unclear right now. Gina said earlier that we "may need to rethink our leveling strategy." What is the intended strategy? When you're done with analyzing and adjusting, will completing Cadwell's Silver/Gold objectives along with delves, dolmens and world bosses be enough to stay mostly at level or will additional actions (e.g. group dungeons, PvP) be required?
  • phreatophile
    phreatophile
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    My biggest concern and that of a lot of us posting about XP/VP debacle the last few days is how on earth the reality is so far short of the stated goals patch after patch. If what we've been experiencing were anything even remotely like what is described above, nobody would be making accusations of trying to extend playtime. You guys are developing a reputation that I'm sure you'd rather not have.
  • Ysne58
    Ysne58
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    500,000 would be too low, but 1,000,000 or 900,000 might be about right?
  • nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO
    nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO
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    Ysne58 wrote: »
    500,000 would be too low, but 1,000,000 or 900,000 might be about right?

    No it wont because it would mean you had to complete around 150 quests to do a veteran level and no veteran zone has that number of quests.
  • Nazon_Katts
    Nazon_Katts
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    I wonder what there still is to be analyzed after a many weeks worth of feedback and a very apparent problem. Your current course of action is yet again taking you much slower than required, all the while the players course of actions shifts more and more towards canceling their subs and giving up the game.

    On a side note, the TOS allow for account cancellation (not subscription) in the case of one being not content with the quality of the service. What effect, if any, would that have on remaining game time?
    "You've probably figured that out by now. Let's hope so. Or we're in real trouble... and out come the intestines. And I skip rope with them!"
  • tengri
    tengri
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    Fine then... oh, and if it's not too much trouble please send one of your QA guys over here during his lunch break and have him explain what exactly is needed now to do a VR level in only about 10 hours.
  • Natjur
    Natjur
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    First and foremost, we want everyone to know that we have zero interest in trying to extend your playtime by making you grind for experience. That includes grinding quests, monsters, dungeons, or anything else. If people aren't having a good time, we know they won’t stick around, so artificially inflating time spent playing is a self-defeating practice we aren't interested in. Our number one priority is fun (this is a game, after all!) and promoting a diverse array of activity options that allow you to pursue experience gains however you like.
    So why are you forcing all thought who have already completed all the undaunted achievements before patch 1.5 to grind daily pledges which will take 70+ days to get to L9 while those who did not do the achievements before patch 1.5 are already at L7 within a week?
  • like1tiger
    like1tiger
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    12-15 hours to get one vet level is a long time. it was taking about 1-2.5 hours of grinding to get a VR level in Craglorn. That's why people did it.
    That was good you could level and get on with the game once you hit vr14.

    going from 2 hours to 12 hours is unbelievable for 1 vet level that really gives you nothing but you want to get to vr14 to play with your mates who are already VR14.
    Its not a problem on your first character as you don't care but im onto my 3rd character and I can tell you I need some way to level other then questing or I may actually go mad.
  • khele23eb17_ESO
    khele23eb17_ESO
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    Dont really care if its 10 or 15 hours. This still makes no sense. How hard is it to grasp the idea that when you complete all content in the first 5 VR zones and enter the vr6 zone you should not be facing enemies 3-4 ranks higher than you (because the available xp only allowed you to reach vr2-3)?
    Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on 11 November 2014 06:50
    P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.
  • xherics
    xherics
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    So, ZOS, you do not force us to grind, but you force us to do quests, what is MORE boring, than grind... do not mention, what others are complaining about, that there is not possible to level up on vt1 zone to level vt2 with completing all quests... Are you crazy? Why do you not care about players?
    Guild: HODOR - EU - Ebonheart Pact
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    World first Sanctum Ophidia Time trial achievement unlock with my Sorcerer (v1.5.7)
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    "Sorcerer is for me a definition of the highest level of magician, what does not mean pets, but pure magic, pure spells.
    Pure magic from the heart, through the blood, to the last hairbreadth...
    Sorcerer means the highest magic killer with pure magic, not the weakest grandmamma's pet farm."

    11.02.2015 - Magicka Sorcerer RIP - What? Sorcerer and not using spells/magicka?
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  • WraithAzraiel
    WraithAzraiel
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    @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

    We know you guys have nothing to do with it, but fact of the matter is, stuff wasn't delivered as advertised.

    Could be as simple as a decimal point in the wrong spot or whatever. We love this game, we want it to succeed and live long enough to be the power house it rightly deserves to be.

    How can we (the players) help fix this?
    Shendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade

    Captain of the Black Howling

    "There's no such thing as overkill..."

    "No problem on the face of the Earth exists what can't be fixed with the proper application of enough duct tape and 550 cord."

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  • Emeliana
    Emeliana
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    If you have zero interest in trying to extend our playtime by making us grind for experience, then why was this change made in the first place??

    To say it's in preperation for the Champion system is a poor excuse because the zones with their mobs, loot, quests, armor, weapons, raw materials, food, recipies and potions are still measured in Veteran Ranks.

    Time and multipliers are irrelevant in this case as there is not enough xp given per content available to level you for THE NEXT ZONE!
    Edited by Emeliana on 11 November 2014 08:08
  • khele23eb17_ESO
    khele23eb17_ESO
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    Emeliana wrote: »
    If you have zero interest in trying to extend our playtime by making us grind for experience, then why was this change made in the first place??

    To say it's in preperation for the Champion system is a poor excuse because the zones with their mobs, loot, quests, armor, weapons, raw materials, food, recipies and potions are still measured in Veteran Ranks.

    Time and multipliers are irrelevant in this case as there is not enough content to level you for THE NEXT ZONE!

    Id say the content's fine. Its just that theres not enough XP given per content available to level you to the next zone.
    Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on 11 November 2014 07:56
    P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.
  • Emeliana
    Emeliana
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    Id say the content's fine. Its just that theres not enough XP given per content available to level you to the next zone.

    I stand corrected and have edited my previous post. ;)

  • Perphection
    Perphection
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    I was looking forward to level up my other characters with this update, but after seeing the changes and experiencing this new system I can assure you I will not be leveling any characters anytime soon. To be honest, probably never again.

    VR is still such a poorly thought out system.
  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
    Community Ambassador
    Emeliana wrote: »

    Id say the content's fine. Its just that theres not enough XP given per content available to level you to the next zone.

    I stand corrected and have edited my previous post. ;)
    Or the XP per content is about right and the requirement for ranking up is too high.


    I read somewhere that people are seeing 4,000,000 XP as the requirement for one Vet Rank rather than 1,432,550 XP. Could this be the problem? The UI is correct at 1,432,550 but the back end inadvertently has 4,000,000 as the requirement?
    Edited by Enodoc on 11 November 2014 09:55
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
  • EQBallzz
    EQBallzz
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    I can confirm this as well. When this XP conversion patch hit I had just started the EP version of Malabol Tor (VR9) and I was slightly ahead of the game (5% into VR9 when I started the zone). I slowly and methodically cleared the entire zone and I'm still only 37% into VR9 and heading into Reaper's March which is VR10. The leveling speed and content level is not even remotely lining up to be playable.

    If you say something needs rethinking on our end I would love to hear it but that statement is lacking much credibility at this point. I'm a huge fan of the game but this is beyond stupid. Admit you made a mistake and fix this ASAP before there is a mass exodus and you ruin the building positive momentum for the upcoming changes to the game.
  • paulovaca
    paulovaca
    ZeniMax Thanks for killing the best game I've played in recent times. I think that my wife is asking for these changes. LOL
  • Lalaeith
    Lalaeith
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    I am a bit disappointed... There are so many people explaining exactly and even with numbers what our problem is: completing a zone doesn't give the xp needed to gain a vr rank. Still, this is your (zos) second long post just talking about how it Is possible to gain a rank in a certain time. I don't care if a veteran rank takes 1, 8 or 20 hrs to gain. I just want to be able to enter the next zone on level with the mobs there once I comlpleted this zone.

    I took a lot of time discovering and questing through every single zone and didn't rush to vr14. And the way it looks right now I will not reach it because I can and will not quest with my main until that gives the chance to reach the next zone on lvl again. Please come up with something else than raising xp for lower level mobs to fix this!
  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
    Community Ambassador
    @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ from another thread:
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Winnower wrote: »
    Amazingly, even more is messed up than it was before - xp for vet levels has gone from 1,500,000 to 4,000,000.
    @Winnower is this appearing in the UI as well? My theory is that Update 5 set it to 4,000,000 by accident but the UI still said 1,432,550, and now the UI has caught up with the error.

    This could explain why it's taking two to three times longer to level than it should be, and would explain this picture if 4,000,000 is the actual requirement.
    Sheaden wrote: »
    s6aWd7Z.jpg

    This therefore seems like a bug in which 4,000,000 was actually implemented instead of 1,432,550, which explains the slower levelling, and is also consistent with the rate of slower levelling - 4,000,000 is 2.7 times 1,432,550, and reports say it's taking ~2.7 zones to rank up.
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
  • Shrekmom
    Shrekmom
    Soul Shriven
    Our number one priority is fun (this is a game, after all!) and promoting a diverse array of activity options that allow you to pursue experience gains however you like.

    Hm so to make it "fun" for me you nerf the way i want to level. By just doing quests and zones the other things in the game i always do at max level when i play a mmo. But now all the sudden i am forced to do things i dont want to do yet in the game. Nice way to let me gain xp however i want and have fun in your game.

  • Epsilon_Echo
    Epsilon_Echo
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    EQBallzz wrote: »
    I can confirm this as well. When this XP conversion patch hit I had just started the EP version of Malabol Tor (VR9) and I was slightly ahead of the game (5% into VR9 when I started the zone). I slowly and methodically cleared the entire zone and I'm still only 37% into VR9 and heading into Reaper's March which is VR10. The leveling speed and content level is not even remotely lining up to be playable.

    If you say something needs rethinking on our end I would love to hear it but that statement is lacking much credibility at this point. I'm a huge fan of the game but this is beyond stupid. Admit you made a mistake and fix this ASAP before there is a mass exodus and you ruin the building positive momentum for the upcoming changes to the game.

    If ZOS would ignore all the opinions and theories and just research THIS I feel we would be getting somewhere.

    We're past the one week mark for having a situation where it is logistically impossible to level via questing.

    As far as the community knows all we have are two community managers casually assisting us speculate what the issue might be and an "official" statement that says we need to "rethink our leveling strategy".

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