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Class Reps - Does Wolfhunter’s initial round of PTS patch notes reflect your feedback?

Vaoh
Vaoh
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I’m curious about this because of Wolfhunter’s short list of class balance changes implemented. Did ZOS actually proceed to care about your feedback, or simply ignore it? Do the patch notes seem to reflect the “pain points” that we have been asked to discuss on many occasions now?

In the end, those who managed to get us into a situation bad enough to prompt a Class Rep system, still decide all of the changes. If they aren’t balancing with heavy consideration placed into your feedback, the Class Rep system is a failure :/
  • Gprime31
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    Think they still have another meeting before dlc is released
  • Turelus
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    Vaoh wrote: »
    I’m curious about this because of Wolfhunter’s short list of class balance changes implemented. Did ZOS actually proceed to care about your feedback, or simply ignore it? Do the patch notes seem to reflect the “pain points” that we have been asked to discuss on many occasions now?

    In the end, those who managed to get us into a situation bad enough to prompt a Class Rep system, still decide all of the changes. If they aren’t balancing with heavy consideration placed into your feedback, the Class Rep system is a failure :/
    The class reps are there to highlight the points only AFK, they can pass on ideas for solutions but ultimately the choices of how things are changed or balanced will always lay with ZOS and they've never said otherwise.

    There are always going to be cases where we as a community want one thing but ZOS wants another, so don't expect all their feedback to be acted on exactly how it was desired.

    That's my personal view from seeing numerous years of player representatives to games companies on development.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
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  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    The biggest pain point to Templars, to me, was not addressed. Repentance needs something.
  • Torbschka
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    The least important pain point of wardens wasnt adressed, not to speak about the pain points haha
    Edited by Torbschka on July 10, 2018 7:43AM
  • Liofa
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    We have an another meeting at 20th. So don't lose hope ^^

    My opinion is, except few important things like Magden Class CC, a lot of PvP stuff we discussed actually got attention so I am happy with that. Can't say the same for PvE though.
  • Gnortranermara
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    For Templars, the answer seems to be "sort of."

    They buffed Radiant, which is awesome. It's a modest buff, but it's enough to earn a spot back on my bar.

    They removed the cast time from Solar Barrage, which is great in theory. Unfortunately, as usual Templars can't get anything good without inexplicable nerf-strings attached. They slapped us with a 40% damage nerf, bringing the ability below comparable AOE DOT skills available to other classes. The recurring Empower buff might be enough to keep it viable with perfect weaving, but that remains to be seen.

    They made Rune Focus apply directly to the character. Again, good in theory, but once again accompanied by the usual senseless nerf-hammer that is always inflicted on Templars. This time they killed the duration, completely screwing up our magicka recovery on a class already notorious for sustain issues.

    So those are all things we asked for that the class reps presented to ZOS, but only 1/3 was properly implemented. Meanwhile, another dozen major Templar problems were ignored. If history is any indication of what to expect, I'm hoping they just leave the other 12 issues alone, lest we wind up with 4 good changes and 8 more mindless nerfs.
    Edited by Gnortranermara on July 10, 2018 8:05AM
  • MLGProPlayer
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    They didn't touch warden (for the 6th DLC patch in a row), so no. Still the worst class in the game.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on July 10, 2018 8:22AM
  • Gprime31
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    They didn't touch warden (for the 6th DLC patch in a row), so no. Still the worst class in the game.

    Then you are playing it wrong
  • Derra
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    Liofa wrote: »
    We have an another meeting at 20th. So don't lose hope ^^

    My opinion is, except few important things like Magden Class CC, a lot of PvP stuff we discussed actually got attention so I am happy with that. Can't say the same for PvE though.

    i kinda agree with this - even though i think the changes for sload + cage don´t go far enough and the change to fury is purly bc of how sorc works around cage significantly weakening builds not going for the broken skill.

    i also don´t think petspeed is going to help much open world - but is going to make them even better in controlled scenarios like duels. not the change i´d have made (not that i know how to fix pets while keeping them as killable toggles at all).
    <Noricum>
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  • MLGProPlayer
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    Gprime31 wrote: »
    They didn't touch warden (for the 6th DLC patch in a row), so no. Still the worst class in the game.

    Then you are playing it wrong

    I guess everyone is playing it wrong then?
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on July 10, 2018 8:33AM
  • Taonnor
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    Please all remember, that the implementation of all changes still have a shorter or longer "delay". So i expect the fast changes this Patch and the long term issues in the next Patch end of the year.

    And again... Remember the Devs does have a process behind that. They need to be discuss about the feedback, adjust it, implement it, test it intern, revert it eventually, discuss it again, implement it again, test it intern again and then it goes the way to PTS. If you have a complex change from Class representation round with long implementation effort you will not have this change in this Patch. This is unrealistic and unfair to the Devs.
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  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    Healing Medals in Team Deathmatch now contribute more scoring value towards the end of game scoreboard, as well as weekly Leaderboards.

    Some things did happen while other things will take more time. What's saying "Rome wasn't built in a day"

  • ZOS_GinaBruno
    ZOS_GinaBruno
    Community Manager
    Just a reminder as mentioned last month, we never intended to address every item from the last meeting with the Class Reps - there simply wasn't enough time. That said, we did adjust a few things based on our meeting with them, and are planning to have another meeting next week to discuss a lot of the PTS feedback.
    Gina Bruno
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  • Tryxus
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    Just a reminder as mentioned last month, we never intended to address every item from the last meeting with the Class Reps - there simply wasn't enough time. That said, we did adjust a few things based on our meeting with them, and are planning to have another meeting next week to discuss a lot of the PTS feedback.

    So I'm guessing that just like with Summerset there won't be any further changes to the classes this update. Or at least nothing major.

    Well I wasn't expecting a lot of changes really, since it's been only 1-1.5 months since the Class Rep program. And judging by some of the changes this PTS (Incap, Rune Cage,...) , you guys did listen to us which is all we can ask for really. However, Wardens did get left out compared to the others...

    So now I'm wondering: are you guys aware of the issues with Magicka Wardens? Can you at least let us know, or give us a sign, that you are working to improve them as well? Anything, even a Soon™ would be appreciated
    Edited by Tryxus on July 10, 2018 2:56PM
    "The Oak's Promise: stand strong, stay true, and shelter all"
    Tryxus of the Undying Song - Warden - PC/EU/DC
  • SirCritical
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    Liofa wrote: »
    Can't say the same for PvE though.

    Then this is what would make me sad if I had the same interest which I had a month ago. Sadly my optimism and motivation has gone.
  • MaxwellC
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    Dk got a change I like and another that I agree with (immunity on wings and nerf to warmth). I still want an increased duration for immunity but we'll see how it plays out although 4 seconds isn't asking for much due to the cost.

    I really hope a lot of the feedback passed around and more so vocalized by said reps doesn't make it e.g increased range for burning embers because it somehow feels "clunky". Yeah increased range on a ability that can provide 6k+ heals in PvP at a low cost and ticks for damage... so balanced.
    I also hope that Stam Whip doesn't become a thing because we'll have our DoTs nerfed and that'll be a major disruption for PvE but no one seemed to make that connection unless they feel that 44k PvE DPS we pull won't get increased by a stam whip.

    Holding out for passive changes, AoE for FoO and a nerf to embers heal.
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  • Anhedonie
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    Oh, right, class reps...
    Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.
  • ak_pvp
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    MaxwellC wrote: »
    Dk got a change I like and another that I agree with (immunity on wings and nerf to warmth). I still want an increased duration for immunity but we'll see how it plays out although 4 seconds isn't asking for much due to the cost.

    I really hope a lot of the feedback passed around and more so vocalized by said reps doesn't make it e.g increased range for burning embers because it somehow feels "clunky". Yeah increased range on a ability that can provide 6k+ heals in PvP at a low cost and ticks for damage... so balanced.
    I also hope that Stam Whip doesn't become a thing because we'll have our DoTs nerfed and that'll be a major disruption for PvE but no one seemed to make that connection unless they feel that 44k PvE DPS we pull won't get increased by a stam whip.

    Holding out for passive changes, AoE for FoO and a nerf to embers heal.

    4s is where it needs to be, I have spammed this everywhere but I'll say it here:

    Shuffle costs like 600 after unchained passive has 2.5s and is hardly enough for an already mobile stam class who can evade snares, 2s is not enough for a non mobile mag class at the cost of 4k.

    To those who say "we used shuffle in heavy when it was 0.5s." Need to remember that it was when stand your ground (and everything else) was stronger, and with unchained. DK can't stand their ground much and wings can't be unchained. So a longer, 4s, immunity is needed.

    @ZOS_Wrobel Its a step in the right direction, but not enough for such a gutted class. Also think about adding fall damage immunity, it makes it cool and unique whilst adding to DK mobility defacto without making them too fast.
    Edited by ak_pvp on July 10, 2018 4:14PM
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
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  • Lord_Eomer
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    Just a reminder as mentioned last month, we never intended to address every item from the last meeting with the Class Reps - there simply wasn't enough time. That said, we did adjust a few things based on our meeting with them, and are planning to have another meeting next week to discuss a lot of the PTS feedback.

    ZOS please clarify what items are you considering for implementation?

    as we are hardly seeing combat, class, requested set changes!
  • Joy_Division
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    I do think ZOS cares about our feedback and I do think tried to implement as much as they could in the limited time and resources available to them. I have confidence they will continue to try and do so and we have a meeting on the 20th on this very matter.

    I know a lot of folks are disappointed that their pain points did not get addressed this patch or that some of the changes may not have gone far enough. I can relate. I would have handled the templar changes differently, I'm waiting for a mag Warden CC, I still don't like Rune Cage, and I know if Sloads remains unchanged at least half of my opponents will still wear that set next time I que up for Battlegrounds. OK, so hopefully through some further discussion, we can arrive closer to where we think the game should go.
  • starkerealm
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    I’m curious about this because of Wolfhunter’s short list of class balance changes implemented. Did ZOS actually proceed to care about your feedback, or simply ignore it? Do the patch notes seem to reflect the “pain points” that we have been asked to discuss on many occasions now?

    In the end, those who managed to get us into a situation bad enough to prompt a Class Rep system, still decide all of the changes. If they aren’t balancing with heavy consideration placed into your feedback, the Class Rep system is a failure :/
    The class reps are there to highlight the points only AFK, they can pass on ideas for solutions but ultimately the choices of how things are changed or balanced will always lay with ZOS and they've never said otherwise.

    There are always going to be cases where we as a community want one thing but ZOS wants another, so don't expect all their feedback to be acted on exactly how it was desired.

    That's my personal view from seeing numerous years of player representatives to games companies on development.

    Yeah, even with direct access to the team, as a player, you can argue for your position, but it's entirely possible the answer will still be no. To their credit, the dev team does have articulate reasons for a lot of their choices. Its just that those aren't always presented publicly, for obvious reasons.

    If you're thinking that access = the ability to dictate changes, you're in for a sharp disappointment.

    Here's the thing. As a player, you have a semi-antagonistic relationship with the developers. I don't mean on a personal level; every member of the team I met was a fantastic person. Their job is to what's best for the game and its players. That's not, always, "what you want," as a player.

    Also, sometimes, I'm wrong. I knew there was something wrong about how Meditate worked when I first tested it. The suggestions I offered for fixing it were also wrong. I think giving it a block cancel was the right choice. That wasn't something that occurred to me.

    Also all dyes unlock on templates now. Seeing that made my day. I know it's a tiny change and doesn't affect live, but seeing that was an amazing moment for me. :D
    Edited by starkerealm on July 16, 2018 9:08PM
  • Kingslayer513
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    Everybody is so pessimistic. Am I the only one who thinks the class rep program is off to a good start?

    Most of the balance changes were straight from the class rep meeting notes. It's a good indication that the program is working and changes are happening based on our feedback. Nobody should have expected them to address every pain point in a month. Sure, I'd like to see more to come and I can't say that I agree with every solution to the pain points that were worked on, but at least they're working on things directly in response to feedback.

    Overall impression is good, just that it was very pvp focused and wardens seem to have been ignored. But since it was only the first one, we can't really say it's a set in stone trend. Could shift the opposite next time and maybe wardens will get the overhaul we've all dreamed of :D
  • JPcrazysquirrel3
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    I personally think the class rep program is a joke and really just a PR stunt.
    "Wood Elves aren't made of wood. Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves."
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    Mayrael wrote: »
    Class reps are just like our politicians. They promise mountains made of gold for us, but in the end, whenever they can they try to push their own agenda.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Playing since console release in 2015

    17 characters; mainly play PvE tanks and healer, as well as PvP stamDK, magplar, and stamblade; I also have a handful of DPS toons to have variety. All AD, with one, now PvE, DC toon.

    I was on the forums before, but something happened with my account info and I had to create a new account.
  • Gnortranermara
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    Yeah, even with direct access to the team, as a player, you can argue for your position, but it's entirely possible the answer will still be no.

    As it should be, most of the time. Still, it's frustrating - even infuriating - that certain inexplicable deficiencies affecting certain classes should be fixed and would be easy to fix, but are nonetheless ignored by the combat dev team. Templar, for instance, has severe deficiencies in far too many areas: mobility, CC, DPS, sustain, ultimates, access to buffs, etc. The one thing we have going for us, heals, is a constant target for nerfs that can only be explained by incompetence or malice. Healing Ritual costs FAR too much and the secondary heal on BoL is a joke now. I'm sick of hearing this crap about how long it takes and how hard it is. I single-handedly coded the entire combat system for an indie game in under two weeks. Small adjustments to balance an already-existing system are easy, and the class reps made it even easier by spoonfeeding them a really good summary of the exact problems that need addressing. (Really, from the notes of the first meeting it's clear the class reps did great.) A semi-competent monkey with a keyboard could fix it all, given the chance. But they don't, for the reasons below:
    Their job is to what's best for the game and its players.

    More and more, I'm realizing just how untrue that is. Their job is to increase player dissatisfaction because dissatisfied people spend their time and effort hopelessly attempting to achieve satisfaction. It's a cheap psychological manipulation to make more money. If you can't get what you want on one build, you switch to another, investing more of your time into playing the game which creates more Crown Store purchase opportunities for the company. Then they randomly and stupidly nerf some things and buff others to make players dissatisfied again, so everyone shifts to a new class or playstyle and spends more time and money. It's an endless cycle where the health of the game and the satisfaction of the customer are both sacrificed to boost grind time and Crown sales. If the health of the game were a true company goal, then they'd stop pushing new Crown store content long enough to fix the major outstanding bugs and the abysmal state of combat imbalance. Certainly there are devs who care about the game, but they work for a company and company policy dictates their true goals. Those true goals are obvious from their actions, manipulating players with the cattle prod of an incompetently managed buff/nerf cycle until their already-inadequate servers finally fall apart.
    Edited by Gnortranermara on July 16, 2018 10:04PM
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @JPcrazysquirrel3

    Regardless if it's a PR stunt or not, "Give me an inch, and I'll take a Mile" is very pertinent here (Both good and bad aspects).
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on July 16, 2018 10:20PM
  • starkerealm
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    Yeah, even with direct access to the team, as a player, you can argue for your position, but it's entirely possible the answer will still be no.

    As it should be, most of the time. Still, it's frustrating - even infuriating - that certain inexplicable deficiencies affecting certain classes should be fixed and would be easy to fix, but are nonetheless ignored by the combat dev team. Templar, for instance, has severe deficiencies in far too many areas: mobility, CC, DPS, sustain, ultimates, access to buffs, etc. The one thing we have going for us, heals, is a constant target for nerfs that can only be explained by incompetence or malice. Healing Ritual costs FAR too much and the secondary heal on BoL is a joke now. I'm sick of hearing this crap about how long it takes and how hard it is. I single-handedly coded the entire combat system for an indie game in under two weeks. Small adjustments to balance an already-existing system are easy, and the class reps made it even easier by spoonfeeding them a really good summary of the exact problems that need addressing. (Really, from the notes of the first meeting it's clear the class reps did great.) A semi-competent monkey with a keyboard could fix it all, given the chance.

    Then this concept should be familiar to you:

    I6RpztM.jpg

    Just because you think it's simple and straightforward doesn't make it so. You were working on a small indy game. Not, you know, an MMO. Scale is an important factor, and it's easy to miss just how much is going on under the hood until you find things breaking.

    I remember another MMO. Star Trek Online, in fact, that made some, "minor" changes to ground combat balance to "improve the experience" which rendered substantial chunks of the game completely unplayable for over a month.

    Yeah, sign me the **** up for that ****. That's the stuff!

    Oh, wait. No. Screw that.

    And, to be fair, I've been there on frustrating issues. The gear deterioration bug was infuriating. The bar swap delay bug (when it couldn't be worked around) was aggravating.

    However, in conversations, one thing I've learned is that, as players, we do not have a complete picture of the game. We have what we see, and the way we look at the game.
    But they don't, for the reasons below:
    Their job is to what's best for the game and its players.

    More and more, I'm realizing just how untrue that is. Their job is to increase player dissatisfaction because dissatisfied people spend their time and effort hopelessly attempting to achieve satisfaction. It's a cheap psychological manipulation to make more money. If you can't get what you want on one build, you switch to another, investing more of your time into playing the game which creates more Crown Store purchase opportunities for the company.

    Okay, here's a fun piece of trivia for you. In the last four years, the only time I've ever had my gear invalidated by an update was The Imperial City, when the level cap went from v14 to v16. That's it. The only time.

    Amusingly, you've actually got this backwards. The job of the player is to optimize their position as much as possible. There's a quote from Soren Johnson, a developer on Civ 3 and 4 (that I've been attributing to Jake Solomon for almost two years now.)
    Many players cannot help approaching a game as an optimization puzzle. What gives the most reward for the least risk? What strategy provides the highest chance – or even a guaranteed chance – of success? Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game.

    That's the problem here. Players will look for the most effective possible solution, and abuse the hell out of it. In the process, they will sacrifice the fun. This means making choices that are directly antagonistic to the player's goals. It's not about creating "dissatisfaction," because if you truly find a game dissatisfying, you will leave, and it's not about some petty ploy to grab your wallet, because, again, if you're not having fun, you (usually) won't throw money at a product unless it promises to fix that.

    Players will optimize the fun out. They'll find the optimal solution, that requires the least risk, the least effort, and then they will follow that, regardless of the fun. Take, for example, the vAS+2 exploiters. They're standing there, literally, for hours, spamming one ability, to slowly whittle down the boss in order to get the skins. Is that fun? Really? Spitting out Caltrops or Lethal Arrow every few seconds for hours? No, but it was easy, so people did it.

    That's why I said, the developer's role is semi-antagonistic to the player's goals. Their job is to make sure you don't get bored. If you're getting slapped around, it's because you tried to optimize the fun out of the game. I fully understand that, in the moment, this sucks. It was part of what got me to leave Guild Wars back in 2005. However, given time, distance, and perspective, I do understand. It's not about screwing you over. It never was. This is about making the game a better experience. And, yeah, that means making you uncomfortable sometimes, so you don't slip into a narcoleptic coma of trial grinding, and score runs.
    Edited by starkerealm on July 17, 2018 9:24AM
  • Derra
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    I know a lot of folks are disappointed that their pain points did not get addressed this patch or that some of the changes may not have gone far enough. I can relate. I would have handled the templar changes differently, I'm waiting for a mag Warden CC, I still don't like Rune Cage, and I know if Sloads remains unchanged at least half of my opponents will still wear that set next time I que up for Battlegrounds. OK, so hopefully through some further discussion, we can arrive closer to where we think the game should go.

    Wholeheartedly agree with every point mentioned here...
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Gnortranermara
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    You were working on a small indy game. Not, you know, an MMO. Scale is an important factor, and it's easy to miss just how much is going on under the hood until you find things breaking.

    True. But nobody is asking them to redesign the entire system. Templar could be fixed in just a few quick steps: add 1 second to the base duration of Sun Fire, change its buff from Major Prophecy to Minor Force, put an AOE root on one morph of Spear Shards, and change one morph of Sun Shield to scale with Max Magicka and grant Major Expedition. Bam, problem solved easily. Templar would be playable, fun, and in line with other classes. They don't have to rebuild the wheel, just put some frickin' air in the tire.

    It's not about creating "dissatisfaction," because if you truly find a game dissatisfying, you will leave, and it's not about some petty ploy to grab your wallet................. This is about making the game a better experience.

    I hope you're right. I don't believe that's the case, but I'd rather live in a world where you are. Their actions have all the outward appearances of a cycle of favoritism to particular classes and animus against others. If it's not a cynical manipulation for money, then sheer incompetence is the only other rational explanation for why one class should be saddled with the worst CC, the worst mobility, the worst ultimates, the worst sustain, lack of buffs that everyone else has, the second-worst DPS, AND repeated nerfs to the one field that they used to be best at.
    And, yeah, that means making you uncomfortable sometimes, so you don't slip into a narcoleptic coma of trial grinding, and score runs.

    Dozens of endgame players I used to run with have all quit now, not because they were bored but because they all perceived the combat balance team to be either incompetent or malicious. They're losing endgame players over this. I'm seriously only here still because I'm a guild leader and enjoy the social stuff. That's it. Most of the new people I meet jump in and grind up to 300-400 CP before they quit too. The choice to follow the philosophy of semi-antagonism that you're talking about is NOT helping their bottom line, but destroying it.
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Many players cannot help approaching a game as an optimization puzzle. What gives the most reward for the least risk? What strategy provides the highest chance – or even a guaranteed chance – of success? Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game.

    That's the problem here. Players will look for the most effective possible solution, and abuse the hell out of it. In the process, they will sacrifice the fun. This means making choices that are directly antagonistic to the player's goals. It's not about creating "dissatisfaction,"

    Why do the devs keep adding in easy optimisation puzzlepieces like runecage or sloads then if they´re truely looking for a better game experience?

    It´s not like the players are to blame here. The devs keep adding super easy and obvious optimisation pieces because they try to cater to the very idea critizised in your quote.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • DschiPeunt
    DschiPeunt
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    Did any of the class reps ever talk to zenimax about PvE DPS balance? I can't see how any of the changes do any good to balance, so if somebody could tell me, what happened on that front, I would be happy to hear it.
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