New Mob Mitigation Values for One Tamriel!

ArtOfShred · September 2016

I'll double check my baseline values again when I get home tonight for spell resistance just in case I made a mistake. But I was actually in full medium armor with just a white untraited staff.

I'll make a short video or something if I do probably.

ArtOfShred · September 2016

@Gilliamtherogue
Oh god I can't even...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc29o-J5lOg&feature=youtu.be
(Also woops, had volume up just a bit too high so there's a bit of an echo)
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume that all mobs in dungeons just have 18200 spell resistance now as well.

SublimeSparo · September 2016

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

Can we possibly get some input from the devs on this.
Namely why they felt the need to sneak a change like this in without mentioning it, and also why they think this is enjoyable/ beneficial to the raiding community.

Gilliamtherogue · September 2016

ArtOfShred wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue
Oh god I can't even...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc29o-J5lOg&feature=youtu.be
(Also woops, had volume up just a bit too high so there's a bit of an echo)
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume that all mobs in dungeons just have 18200 spell resistance now as well.

@ArtOfShred Have you tried multiple zones for values? I haven't run into critters with resistances since like 1.4, and I even remember the patch note fixing it. "Fixed an issue where critters throughout the world had armor and spell resistance, they will now go back to being the frail, weak creatures they are."

kojou · September 2016

So the time spent in VSO will become more than 80% mindlessly grinding trash mobs and 20% boss fights. Yay.

SublimeSparo · September 2016

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

So the time spent in VSO will become more than 80% mindlessly grinding trash mobs and 20% boss fights. Yay.

No they have already snuck this change into trials from what i gather so it won't change much. Hooray for absurdly long tanky trash pulls

kojou · September 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

So the time spent in VSO will become more than 80% mindlessly grinding trash mobs and 20% boss fights. Yay.

No they have already snuck this change into trials from what i gather so it won't change much. Hooray for absurdly long tanky trash pulls

OK well at least they won't get longer... I agree they are already absurdly long though.

Gilliamtherogue · September 2016

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

So the time spent in VSO will become more than 80% mindlessly grinding trash mobs and 20% boss fights. Yay.

It already is like that though

Personofsecrets · September 2016

"The whole redirection of PvE from skilled combat that rewarded High Risk game play (glass cannons) to outright exclusion from participation has put a bad taste in my mouth and as such, mine and many other's participation in PvE events has severely decreased. From a balance standpoint in terms of the top .1% I can see being disappointed to see us clear bosses in literally 1/3rd the time you estimated (Rakkhat was suggest to be cleared in ~15m when first released, while he has been cleared in under 5m for many top tier groups), but unfortunately your PvE community is not robust enough to design around that. You're pretty much making content for under 10 guilds at this point (HM being for ~5 guilds) which is not sustainable, or enjoyable even on our part. Competition has died out, it's impossible to reasonably train new players since the skill difference is so large with so few in game tools, and the senseless RNG grind with saturated garbage trait/loot combinations has all but destroyed reason and enjoyment to actively participate in PvE."

TRUE
R
U
E

Woeler · September 2016

Nice post, very interesting. Depending on how a raid can be setup this might bring precise weapons back for some of us.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Competition has died out, it's impossible to reasonably train new players since the skill difference is so large with so few in game tools

That is solely an NA problem. PC EU has a blooming raiding community with 4 guilds having Maw Hard Mode down and over 30 guilds being able to complete Maw on veteran. Plenty of raid guilds taking both new and experienced players. There has never been more raiding on the EU server than now.

code65536 · September 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Nice post, very interesting. Depending on how a raid can be setup this might bring precise weapons back for some of us.

Wouldn't an increase in mitigation favor Sharpened over Precise? The old way of thinking was that Precise worked well on trash because it was easier to overpenetrate them. Now it would seem that Precise has become even less desirable.

Woeler · September 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Nice post, very interesting. Depending on how a raid can be setup this might bring precise weapons back for some of us.

Wouldn't an increase in mitigation favor Sharpened over Precise? The old way of thinking was that Precise worked well on trash because it was easier to overpenetrate them. Now it would seem that Precise has become even less desirable.

Yes, but with new sets like sunderflame, alkosh, two fanged snake, nightmother you might get the boss resistances close to 0.

IwakuraLain42 · September 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Nice post, very interesting. Depending on how a raid can be setup this might bring precise weapons back for some of us.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Competition has died out, it's impossible to reasonably train new players since the skill difference is so large with so few in game tools

That is solely an NA problem. PC EU has a blooming raiding community with 4 guilds having Maw Hard Mode down and over 30 guilds being able to complete Maw on veteran. Plenty of raid guilds taking both new and experienced players. There has never been more raiding on the EU server than now.

Lucky for you on the PC server, PS4/EU is a completely different story. I'll check leaderboards later tonight, but before the latest reset from SotH there were exactly 4 vMoL clears on the leaderboard.

Gilliamtherogue · September 2016

Woeler wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Nice post, very interesting. Depending on how a raid can be setup this might bring precise weapons back for some of us.

Wouldn't an increase in mitigation favor Sharpened over Precise? The old way of thinking was that Precise worked well on trash because it was easier to overpenetrate them. Now it would seem that Precise has become even less desirable.

Yes, but with new sets like sunderflame, alkosh, two fanged snake, nightmother you might get the boss resistances close to 0.

@Woeler
This is already the case on Live servers, and has been for over 5 months. On bosses it is possible to reach 608 armor, which can be made up with very few points into Piercing.
18200 -5280(maj frac) - 1320(min frac) - 3360 (v14 sunder) - 3010 (alkosh) - 1946(infused crusher) - 2580(NMG) - 100(base)= 608 Physical Resistance. Sharpened must penetrate 2500 armor (per gold 1h) in order to beat precise, meaning if you can't keep all of these armor debuffs you want 1 precise and 1 sharpened, but if you can maintain them, then you want 2 sharpened.

Twin Fanged Snake, Spriggans, etc are all useless sets from a PvE application in coordinated trials, since you cannot over penetrate targets. It is far more optimal to have one player run a debuff set, as the 5 piece becomes a pseudo bonus to all other party members.

And your remark about it being an NA exclusive problem is irrelevant. Just because one server (EU, since many console guilds struggle with the same issues) is doing well, it does not warrant entire content to be focused around them. That is an extremely narrow minded observation, and I expect more out of someone who considers themselves to be a decent player. Our goal should be to making a community robust enough to support additional creation of content and longevity of the game, instead of catering to smaller and smaller portions of the community.

Woeler · September 2016

--Edit--

Never mind, I should know better than to fall for baiting. Good luck on pc na, you will need it.

Continue with topic.

iam117 · September 2016

@Gilliamtherogue your thread has alot of good info in it and I hope it's not derailed over people thinking your info and ideas are irrelevant. This has been typical lately. May need popcorn meme for this.

hedna123b14_ESO · September 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Nice post, very interesting. Depending on how a raid can be setup this might bring precise weapons back for some of us.

Wouldn't an increase in mitigation favor Sharpened over Precise? The old way of thinking was that Precise worked well on trash because it was easier to overpenetrate them. Now it would seem that Precise has become even less desirable.

On trash Sharpened weapons are a must, on bosses you can go one of two routes. Sacrificing individual performance for group DPS increase, or find a gear optimization solution which has everyone running DPS sets and still fully penetrates the target. In our runs we will be pursuing the latter choice. I find that a major difference in rotation (a FHA every 8 seconds in sunderflame) severely lowers the full DPS potential of the player thereby negating much of the desired effect of damage boosting. I have seen 2 exactly identical (gear and race wise) DK's executing slightly different rotations (but same skills) and having a damage difference anywhere from 5-10k. Rotation is everything and FHA's imho would not be worthwhile.

The ultimate takeaway though is each team plays to the strengths of its players, and unique approaches work differently depending on player composition. Precise IMHO in our particular raid setup would lead to a DPS loss.

Gilliamtherogue · September 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Nice post, very interesting. Depending on how a raid can be setup this might bring precise weapons back for some of us.

Wouldn't an increase in mitigation favor Sharpened over Precise? The old way of thinking was that Precise worked well on trash because it was easier to overpenetrate them. Now it would seem that Precise has become even less desirable.

On trash Sharpened weapons are a must, on bosses you can go one of two routes. Sacrificing individual performance for group DPS increase, or find a gear optimization solution which has everyone running DPS sets and still fully penetrates the target. In our runs we will be pursuing the latter choice. I find that a major difference in rotation (a FHA every 8 seconds in sunderflame) severely lowers the full DPS potential of the player thereby negating much of the desired effect of damage boosting. I have seen 2 exactly identical (gear and race wise) DK's executing slightly different rotations (but same skills) and having a damage difference anywhere from 5-10k. Rotation is everything and FHA's imho would not be worthwhile.

The ultimate takeaway though is each team plays to the strengths of its players, and unique approaches work differently depending on player composition. Precise IMHO in our particular raid setup would lead to a DPS loss.

Exactly, Sharpened is now (actually has been since this was stealth applied in Update 11) a must on trash since many armor reductions are bound to single target application, meaning you cannot reliably reduce ALL targets to 0. On single target bosses however this is different, but again as you said finding what works best for your group is vital. If running Sunder is causing your designated wearer to lose a large portion of DPS (which it shouldn't, but not everyone is perfect), then don't wear it and find alternatives. Our Sunder wearer averages ~46-48k while our full DPS wearer averages 50-53k (they've both pulled higher in some situations). A single 5k loss for one is made up if you have 2 or more Stamina builds both gaining ~3k+ leads to a larger gain. Keep in mind the gap will close as well with Sunder now being available at c160 now too!

hedna123b14_ESO · September 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Nice post, very interesting. Depending on how a raid can be setup this might bring precise weapons back for some of us.

Wouldn't an increase in mitigation favor Sharpened over Precise? The old way of thinking was that Precise worked well on trash because it was easier to overpenetrate them. Now it would seem that Precise has become even less desirable.

On trash Sharpened weapons are a must, on bosses you can go one of two routes. Sacrificing individual performance for group DPS increase, or find a gear optimization solution which has everyone running DPS sets and still fully penetrates the target. In our runs we will be pursuing the latter choice. I find that a major difference in rotation (a FHA every 8 seconds in sunderflame) severely lowers the full DPS potential of the player thereby negating much of the desired effect of damage boosting. I have seen 2 exactly identical (gear and race wise) DK's executing slightly different rotations (but same skills) and having a damage difference anywhere from 5-10k. Rotation is everything and FHA's imho would not be worthwhile.

The ultimate takeaway though is each team plays to the strengths of its players, and unique approaches work differently depending on player composition. Precise IMHO in our particular raid setup would lead to a DPS loss.

Exactly, Sharpened is now (actually has been since this was stealth applied in Update 11) a must on trash since many armor reductions are bound to single target application, meaning you cannot reliably reduce ALL targets to 0. On single target bosses however this is different, but again as you said finding what works best for your group is vital. If running Sunder is causing your designated wearer to lose a large portion of DPS (which it shouldn't, but not everyone is perfect), then don't wear it and find alternatives. Our Sunder wearer averages ~46-48k while our full DPS wearer averages 50-53k (they've both pulled higher in some situations). A single 5k loss for one is made up if you have 2 or more Stamina builds both gaining ~3k+ leads to a larger gain. Keep in mind the gap will close as well with Sunder now being available at c160 now too!

Yeah I've been thinking long and hard in sunderflame and whether we should run it...for our specific approach and playstyle we don't find it necessary. Also the way I have it setup for next DLC is there is never a worry about keeping Alkosh up, since we fully penetrate without it. This allows more focus on raid awareness - which is going to be very important to to us as we are working in vMoL HM.

ArtOfShred · September 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

@ArtOfShred Have you tried multiple zones for values? I haven't run into critters with resistances since like 1.4, and I even remember the patch note fixing it. "Fixed an issue where critters throughout the world had armor and spell resistance, they will now go back to being the frail, weak creatures they are."

I tried, Stros M'Kai, Glenumbra, Stonefalls and Deshaan so far with the same results. They must have accidentally added critter resistance back in.

ZOS_Finn · September 2016

RE: Dungeons and Monster Mitigation

Monsters in Dungeons have had their current mitigation levels since the patch in which we introduced Champion Points. This was done, specifically in Dungeons and Group content, to make sure that armor and spell penetration abilities were desirable and useful in group situations.

Dagoth_Rac · September 2016

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

RE: Dungeons and Monster Mitigation

Monsters in Dungeons have had their current mitigation levels since the patch in which we introduced Champion Points. This was done, specifically in Dungeons and Group content, to make sure that armor and spell penetration abilities were desirable and useful in group situations.

@ZOS_Finn

If you are allowed to expand on this, do you mean that mob mitigation in dungeons/trials is unchanged since Champion Points were introduced and will continue to be unchanged with One Tamriel? This new change for One Tamriel only affects overland mobs? I know that on live, trolls in Wrothgar have about 25% mitigation, mammoths have about 35%, etc. It varies. Is standardizing all those overland mobs to a single mitigation the only change?

Vaoh · September 2016

@Gilliamtherogue Thank you for these.

To ask plainly, will it be more difficult for me to solo Vet White Gold Tower in One Tamriel over the current patch?

Sounds like bosses will take less damage in One Tamriel meaning longer boss fights.

Gilliamtherogue · September 2016

Vaoh wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue Thank you for these.

To ask plainly, will it be more difficult for me to solo Vet White Gold Tower in One Tamriel over the current patch?

Sounds like bosses will take less damage in One Tamriel meaning longer boss fights.

Nope, dungeons are left untouched. This was strictly referring to Overland PvE (public dungeons, dolmens, etc). The mitigation changes for dungeons were changed back in Update 11, although there are still a few inconsistencies.

Vaoh · September 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue Thank you for these.

To ask plainly, will it be more difficult for me to solo Vet White Gold Tower in One Tamriel over the current patch?

Sounds like bosses will take less damage in One Tamriel meaning longer boss fights.

Nope, dungeons are left untouched. This was strictly referring to Overland PvE (public dungeons, dolmens, etc). The mitigation changes for dungeons were changed back in Update 11, although there are still a few inconsistencies.

Okay. Thank you!

Great news to hear

Teridaxus · September 2016

Well eu toons are copied and wow you guys didn't joked in this thread.
Overland mobs are atleast on craglorn npc tankiness which was designed as team zone while their damage still barely overcome my health regen stat.

ZOS_Finn · September 2016

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

RE: Dungeons and Monster Mitigation

Monsters in Dungeons have had their current mitigation levels since the patch in which we introduced Champion Points. This was done, specifically in Dungeons and Group content, to make sure that armor and spell penetration abilities were desirable and useful in group situations.

@ZOS_Finn

If you are allowed to expand on this, do you mean that mob mitigation in dungeons/trials is unchanged since Champion Points were introduced and will continue to be unchanged with One Tamriel? This new change for One Tamriel only affects overland mobs? I know that on live, trolls in Wrothgar have about 25% mitigation, mammoths have about 35%, etc. It varies. Is standardizing all those overland mobs to a single mitigation the only change?

Yes, Dungeons and Trials monsters mitigation is unchanged in OneTamriel. This note is specifically related to Overland/Delve/Public Dungeons and would not affect Dungeons/Trials/Arenas.

Sublime · September 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Nice post, very interesting. Depending on how a raid can be setup this might bring precise weapons back for some of us.

Wouldn't an increase in mitigation favor Sharpened over Precise? The old way of thinking was that Precise worked well on trash because it was easier to overpenetrate them. Now it would seem that Precise has become even less desirable.

On trash Sharpened weapons are a must, on bosses you can go one of two routes. Sacrificing individual performance for group DPS increase, or find a gear optimization solution which has everyone running DPS sets and still fully penetrates the target. In our runs we will be pursuing the latter choice. I find that a major difference in rotation (a FHA every 8 seconds in sunderflame) severely lowers the full DPS potential of the player thereby negating much of the desired effect of damage boosting. I have seen 2 exactly identical (gear and race wise) DK's executing slightly different rotations (but same skills) and having a damage difference anywhere from 5-10k. Rotation is everything and FHA's imho would not be worthwhile.

The ultimate takeaway though is each team plays to the strengths of its players, and unique approaches work differently depending on player composition. Precise IMHO in our particular raid setup would lead to a DPS loss.

Why do you use Sunderflame over Nightmother's Gaze? It has a higher armor reduction and doesn't require heavy attacking. (At least according to esoacademy)

hedna123b14_ESO · September 2016

Sublime wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Nice post, very interesting. Depending on how a raid can be setup this might bring precise weapons back for some of us.

Wouldn't an increase in mitigation favor Sharpened over Precise? The old way of thinking was that Precise worked well on trash because it was easier to overpenetrate them. Now it would seem that Precise has become even less desirable.

On trash Sharpened weapons are a must, on bosses you can go one of two routes. Sacrificing individual performance for group DPS increase, or find a gear optimization solution which has everyone running DPS sets and still fully penetrates the target. In our runs we will be pursuing the latter choice. I find that a major difference in rotation (a FHA every 8 seconds in sunderflame) severely lowers the full DPS potential of the player thereby negating much of the desired effect of damage boosting. I have seen 2 exactly identical (gear and race wise) DK's executing slightly different rotations (but same skills) and having a damage difference anywhere from 5-10k. Rotation is everything and FHA's imho would not be worthwhile.

The ultimate takeaway though is each team plays to the strengths of its players, and unique approaches work differently depending on player composition. Precise IMHO in our particular raid setup would lead to a DPS loss.

Why do you use Sunderflame over Nightmother's Gaze? It has a higher armor reduction and doesn't require heavy attacking. (At least according to esoacademy)

If you read my comment I specifically say that I don't use sunderflame. That being said Sunderflame debuffs physical penetration by 3400+, while Nightmothers debuffs it by 2580. So sunderflame does more.

Dromede · September 2016

Crazy amount of information that i've never heard of before... Huge thanks to all the contributors!