ZOS: URGENT PLEA ABOUT ABUSIVE COMMENTS on ZONE CHAT ...extremely upsetting.

LadyNalcarya · October 2020

Raideen wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. I wish more people learned this valuable lesson.

People should not put up with discrimination, though. Things like racism, sexism etc lead to much more than just "hurt feelings". Of course, harassment in games is only a small part of a big problem, but it doesn't mean that it's not a problem at all.

[snip]

I have delt with people making fun of me for physical imperfections for over 30 years. I learned a long time ago that the best way to deal with it, was to ignore their commentary...because what they were saying was not true, it was just being said to be hurtful. I stop letting it hurt me and life is better.

The biggest change any person can do to the world, is change themselves.

So in other words, we should blame the victims of harassment for "allowing it to hurt them" instead of harassers? That's not very constructive. Sure, it's not possible to get rid of all evil, but it doesn't mean that we should give up trying and just accept it. Mental health is a real thing, and trying to harm people psychologically is no better than trying to hit them.
Shifting focus from perpetrators to victims only empowers said perpetrators and creates a very unwelcoming atmosphere. Games are supposed to be fun for everyone participating, they're not here to test your mental strength or something. Harassment is already against ESO rules, the problem is that these rules aren't enforced as often as they should be.

wishlist14 · October 2020

idk wrote: »

Report them as you have done, and get SS of their comments. They are idiots but they are also trolls so do not respond to them in any way as that just feeds and energizes them.

In reality, with the stronger stance about harassment, Zos has recently taken those players that spout racist, sexist, and other intolerant and derogatory comments should be banned.

Thank you. I could not bring myself to say anything as it would have turned on me and upset je even more. I understand how trolls work so best thing i could do was report them and then make sure this issue gets looked at. I know zos dont tolerate this kind of bad behaviour.

wishlist14 · October 2020

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Sorry to hear you had to go through that.
Out of curiousity, did this happen on console or PC?

Ty for your support happened on NA/PC

Ectheliontnacil · October 2020

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Harassment is already against ESO rules, the problem is that these rules aren't enforced as often as they should be.

I see this a lot. Is there any evidence to suggest ZOS purposely ignores these ToS violations? I know people who have been banned for saying offensive stuff in zone/dms.
Did anyone ever get reported for an actual ToS violation without them receiving any punishment?
Remember that a first strike only lasts 72 hours afaik, so if you see them back at it again after a couple days, that doesn't mean they didn't get slapped with a temp ban.

wishlist14 · October 2020

karekiz wrote: »

GM's do exist. I know of a player who did report for similar issue and fully did everything <Also isn't a streamer> and a GM responded to him. Thats the best course of action.

I reported it ingame ..i have no idea about gms on eso or how to contact them.

wishlist14 · October 2020

Asdara wrote: »

Why post it on the forums?
Reporting and blocking was enough, you don't have to make this public.

I do have to make this public....it heeds to stop. I had to be silent and not say anything to stop it even though every part of me wanted to lash out at them....dont you dare make me feel bad about this i didnt do anything wrong.

doomette · October 2020

wishlist14 wrote: »

Asdara wrote: »

Why post it on the forums?
Reporting and blocking was enough, you don't have to make this public.

I do have to make this public....it heeds to stop. I had to be silent and not say anything to stop it even though every part of me wanted to lash out at them....dont you dare make me feel bad about this i didnt do anything wrong.

You didn’t do anything wrong, and all the victim blaming and apologist responses are disgusting.

wishlist14 · October 2020

volkeswagon wrote: »

Sorry that happened. Unfortunately zone chat is full of people from bad environments. [snip] Zone chat can get pretty nasty and vulgar at times. These people aren't usually in guilds because they would have been kicked for their behaviour so they take to zone for their social interactions. Reporting them is really all you can do then switch zones after reporting or turn off the chat hub temporarily.

Thank you. I agree some people dont have a good start to life but why focus on females and degrade them? It is blatant bullying...if they were being abusive about several topics it would not be as obvious....the gehaviour is vicious and predatory in a sense.

wishlist14 · October 2020

Raideen wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. I wish more people learned this valuable lesson.

People should not put up with discrimination, though. Things like racism, sexism etc lead to much more than just "hurt feelings". Of course, harassment in games is only a small part of a big problem, but it doesn't mean that it's not a problem at all.

[snip]

I have delt with people making fun of me for physical imperfections for over 30 years. I learned a long time ago that the best way to deal with it, was to ignore their commentary...because what they were saying was not true, it was just being said to be hurtful. I stop letting it hurt me and life is better.

The biggest change any person can do to the world, is change themselves.

I totally disagree when a group of people focus on the female genetalia and make disgusting and graphic comments in a hateful way...you reallynhad to be there to believe it. I've heard a *** of stuff but this was just too much for a game seriously nasty. You dont have to agree with my personal experience ...this is my post and i felt i needed to nake it. Im really here so zos take a stance on this.

Nairinhe · October 2020

Umbro100 wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. I wish more people learned this valuable lesson.

This is just wrong on so many levels.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/tech-support/201308/why-words-can-hurt-least-much-sticks-and-stones

That's just a ton more complex than "words do or don't hurt". There's a lot of weight in "what", "who", "why" and most importantly "should it?“.

I've had my self-esteem somewhere down in the drain for a long time because of what a family member used to say during arguments (here's "what") until I realised that even if they are a person who is dear to me and whose opinion I value (here's "who") they attacked me specifically because we were fighting and I said some nasty stuff too (here's "why"). But all that stuff didn't reflect what they really think about me and simply isn't true (here's finally "should?“). Spoiler: no, it shouldn't hurt.

As unpleasant as this experience was (0/10, won't recommend), it gave me quite clear understanding of how little most of the words really mean and how important it is to know for yourself when you are reacting to something that's not worth it.

To sum it up: words really shouldn't hurt you per se. It's intention behind them and if there's any weight. If a random tells me I'm fat and stupid - I don't care, they are no one and most likely just trolling, if my mom does - I'd get upset because either it's true or my mom tries to hurt me for some reason.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

wishlist14 · October 2020

Raideen wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. I wish more people learned this valuable lesson.

People should not put up with discrimination, though. Things like racism, sexism etc lead to much more than just "hurt feelings". Of course, harassment in games is only a small part of a big problem, but it doesn't mean that it's not a problem at all.

[snip]

I have delt with people making fun of me for physical imperfections for over 30 years. I learned a long time ago that the best way to deal with it, was to ignore their commentary...because what they were saying was not true, it was just being said to be hurtful. I stop letting it hurt me and life is better.

The biggest change any person can do to the world, is change themselves.

Then why do we have so many people voting for gender equality and then this happens and im told to keep it hush hush...report it in secret. Bullying is bullying and it needs to be called out loud and clear and made known that it wont ge tolerated. This is a safe forum for me to express this view. Im not going to change myself because im an empathic and caring and respectful person. So no i dont need to change thank you. Thanks for the reply i know you mean well and im honestly happy for you that you got to a good place with yourvown experiences. Like i said ive played this game for over 5 yrs and today this experience got to me. Believe me i have let many things slide but today i chose not to.

anitajoneb17_ESO · October 2020

[snip]

To be honest, I've been wondering about that for a while.
We all play in the same "world", right ? I mean, at least if we play on the same megaserver. I play on PC/EU. I've seen and heard my share of insults, trolls and stuff not nice to hear over 6+ years, whether directed at me or at other people.
But frankly, none of them was ever targeted at my gender (I'm a woman), at least in my personal interpretation. They'd have been the same if targeted towards a guy. Besides, objectively, no "stranger" can know our real life gender in the game.
On the other hand, obviously, some players report regular or frequent sexist harassment on that same PC/EU megaserver. I don't doubt their testimonies, but I wonder if there's maybe an interpretation thing here.
I'm definitely not a fan of the "stick and stones" thing, but there's no denial that in communication, there's a emitting and a receiving end, and that both ends play an active role.

[edited to remove quoted content]

Vayln_Ninetails · October 2020

The mute and report function are both things that exist. Not to discredit your issue or anything, but you can already avoid basically all forms of harrassment yourself.

Nairinhe · October 2020

wishlist14 wrote: »

Im not going to change myself because im an empathic and caring and respectful person.

I've already said too much in this thread, I'm afraid, but that seems important: with all said above we should most definitely still strive to create environment that is comfortable and enjoyable for caring and respectful people like you instead of forcing them to "grow thicker skin".

Ratinira · October 2020

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. I wish more people learned this valuable lesson.

People should not put up with discrimination, though. Things like racism, sexism etc lead to much more than just "hurt feelings". Of course, harassment in games is only a small part of a big problem, but it doesn't mean that it's not a problem at all.

[snip]

I have delt with people making fun of me for physical imperfections for over 30 years. I learned a long time ago that the best way to deal with it, was to ignore their commentary...because what they were saying was not true, it was just being said to be hurtful. I stop letting it hurt me and life is better.

The biggest change any person can do to the world, is change themselves.

So in other words, we should blame the victims of harassment for "allowing it to hurt them" instead of harassers? That's not very constructive. Sure, it's not possible to get rid of all evil, but it doesn't mean that we should give up trying and just accept it. Mental health is a real thing, and trying to harm people psychologically is no better than trying to hit them.
Shifting focus from perpetrators to victims only empowers said perpetrators and creates a very unwelcoming atmosphere. Games are supposed to be fun for everyone participating, they're not here to test your mental strength or something. Harassment is already against ESO rules, the problem is that these rules aren't enforced as often as they should be.

Though there is a difference between harassing directly one spesific person (victim) and something said to no-one in video game chat.
The first will require strength to ignore. The second requires one click of mouse to ignore and several to report. And also ignoring is the best mental defence in that case. Someone shouting something in nowhere in game is harmless. Switch them off and enjoy game. Thinking about it, suffering, crying, being in hysteria is not fun but it is easily to be ignored. Unlike *personal* harassment in *real life*
[snip]

It is not about trolls being good, bad, punished, unpunished, evil, not evil... They exist and they will exist as long as people react on them. And the best way to deal with trolls is not feed them so they die from hunger. The more aduld community and less it react to trolls the lesser trolls are in game. Because it is not fun for them. There are little trolls on eso, in fact, there are games where it is better not to switch chat at all, as there are always teenagers discussing... everything.

[edited for baiting]

Muizer · October 2020

Raideen wrote: »

[snip]T

I have delt with people making fun of me for physical imperfections for over 30 years. I learned a long time ago that the best way to deal with it, was to ignore their commentary...because what they were saying was not true, it was just being said to be hurtful. I stop letting it hurt me and life is better.

The biggest change any person can do to the world, is change themselves.

Yes, it is definitely true that on a personal level it's better not to let your welbeing depend too much on what other people do and say, and generally speaking not to let it depend on things that are beyond your control.

On the other hand, even if you cannot not stop people from insulting you, and can try to ignore them, it still matters to know they are the ones doing wrong.

And so, if only to keep a notion of what is and is not acceptable, it is worth to call people out on bad behaviour. What the OP experienced is something parents, teachers, employers etc. would not accept in "the real world". Why should we let it slide because it happened on-line?

Ysbriel · October 2020

How did they now you were a woman?

hexentb16_ESO · October 2020

Yep. Welcome to ESO. Just a couple hours ago an old guild master felt the need to tell zone chat that he kicked kicked me because I'm gay. Knowing him he's going to try finding out my current guilds and try to convince them to kick me too.

wishlist14 · October 2020

Ysbriel wrote: »

How did they now you were a woman?

Please read the question again thank you.

Irfind · October 2020

Ysbriel wrote: »

How did they now you were a woman?

I think it was general hatespeech in zone chat. Against all woman.

@wishlist14 you did the right thing to report them, and nothing wrong with opening a forum post to create awareness of this problem.

anitajoneb17_ESO · October 2020

hexentb16_ESO wrote: »

Yep. Welcome to ESO. Just a couple hours ago an old guild master felt the need to tell zone chat that he kicked kicked me because I'm gay. Knowing him he's going to try finding out my current guilds and try to convince them to kick me too.

Why would anyone want to hang out and around with such people anyway ? If your current guilds are OK, they won't give a damm and your former GM will just make a fool of himself.

DarcyMardin · October 2020

Sorry this happened to you, OP. Good job reporting them -- I hope ZOS takes it seriously and does something about these creeps. Hate speech certainly *does* hurt, and should not be ignored.

As for the people lecturing you about what you should and shouldn't bring up on these forums, they are the ones I'd ignore, personally. You did the right thing.

Ysbriel · October 2020

🤦🏻‍♂️ @wishlist14 apparently my reading comprehension left the thread. Yes there are many occasions that zone chat gets stupid. Thankfully ZOS has already provided the proper tools to address situations like that.

ZOS_Lunar · October 2020

Greetings!

We have removed several posts from this thread as they violated our rules on baiting and bashing. We take the use of hate speech very seriously in the official ESO community, and have a zero tolerance policy. Please help us ensure that everyone feels welcome and free to participate on the official ESO community forums.

Thank you for your understanding, and please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.

Raideen · October 2020

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. I wish more people learned this valuable lesson.

People should not put up with discrimination, though. Things like racism, sexism etc lead to much more than just "hurt feelings". Of course, harassment in games is only a small part of a big problem, but it doesn't mean that it's not a problem at all.

[snip]

I have delt with people making fun of me for physical imperfections for over 30 years. I learned a long time ago that the best way to deal with it, was to ignore their commentary...because what they were saying was not true, it was just being said to be hurtful. I stop letting it hurt me and life is better.

The biggest change any person can do to the world, is change themselves.

So in other words, we should blame the victims of harassment for "allowing it to hurt them" instead of harassers? That's not very constructive. Sure, it's not possible to get rid of all evil, but it doesn't mean that we should give up trying and just accept it. Mental health is a real thing, and trying to harm people psychologically is no better than trying to hit them.
Shifting focus from perpetrators to victims only empowers said perpetrators and creates a very unwelcoming atmosphere. Games are supposed to be fun for everyone participating, they're not here to test your mental strength or something. Harassment is already against ESO rules, the problem is that these rules aren't enforced as often as they should be.

It's not about blame. It's about taking responsibility to do what you can do as an individual, and in fact its the embodiment of being constructive. And I never said we should give in to evil, but what you and many others are suggesting is an authoritarian rule that expects everyone to be in a little box. The very action of interaction also dictates that both parties must prepare for results that go against their desire.

Secondly. Actual harassment and what many call harassment are two totally, completely different things.

I get harassed DAILY on these forums and nothing is done about it. I go out of my way to ensure the conversation is on topic and civil, and I am constantly bullied. I know this means I am on point, [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Raideen · October 2020

Muizer wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

[snip]T

I have delt with people making fun of me for physical imperfections for over 30 years. I learned a long time ago that the best way to deal with it, was to ignore their commentary...because what they were saying was not true, it was just being said to be hurtful. I stop letting it hurt me and life is better.

The biggest change any person can do to the world, is change themselves.

Yes, it is definitely true that on a personal level it's better not to let your welbeing depend too much on what other people do and say, and generally speaking not to let it depend on things that are beyond your control.

On the other hand, even if you cannot not stop people from insulting you, and can try to ignore them, it still matters to know they are the ones doing wrong.

And so, if only to keep a notion of what is and is not acceptable, it is worth to call people out on bad behaviour. What the OP experienced is something parents, teachers, employers etc. would not accept in "the real world". Why should we let it slide because it happened on-line?

I never suggested that we let it slide. The OP did what she could do and what she should have done, although she should also exercise greater responsibility to let mean words slide off her back.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

DTStormfox · October 2020

OP, you have done the right thing by reporting them.

Considering you wrote this while being in an emotional state because it was written only 10 minutes after the fact, it probably would have been better to calm down first and then start a constructive discussion about abusive language in the chat and what we, as a community, can do about it (i.e. discuss the options). I believe that would have been much more fruitful for you and the community. The point I am trying to make is: we first need to find out if such abusive language is of frequent occurrence, before jumping to conclusions based on personal experience or incidents.

Andromea · October 2020

Oh dear, OP, you did the right thing - reporting and talking about it.

How can anyone say to her to shut up and not to feed the troll ? This is about raising awareness. Targeted or not targeted, hate speech has to be publicly condemned. And really, doesn't matter if it's based on gender, race or something else.

Inaya · October 2020

Unless the graphic chat about women's private parts was violent, sexually threatening toward a specific individual, etc than I agree it is innapropriate but hate speech?

Annonimity makes socially inept people brave. People whose opinion I don't respect can't offend me and in all my years of online gaming I can count on one hand the actual times I saw hate speech.

Yes, report them and ignore them but to actually get upset about the comments of trolls is not healthy.

And yes, I AM a woman

furiouslog · October 2020

I support discussion of this topic on the forums, and I'm glad that the OP put this here. Bringing this behavior to light in a social forum is important to reinforcing empathy and understanding of how forms of discrimination have a real world effect on the game's participants.

I saw a bunch of sexist garbage in Elsweyr zone chat yesterday, but to be perfectly honest I didn't report it and just ignored it because it takes too much effort to actually screenshot the entire conversation, log and/or figure out player names, and then organize and submit all of that content. If I did that every time I saw something offensive, I'd be doing it all day instead of playing. So, ZOS, one suggestion for feedback - make this process simpler.

Another observation I have is that despite the fact that some words have clearly been filtered out for guild, player, and user names, some stuff weirdly appears to get through. I saw someone with an obvious racial slur embedded in their player name the other day. How can that be allowed to even happen? How did that name even get into the system in the first place?

We have free speech in the US. People can say what they want and be as offensive as they want as long as they are not violating the civil rights of others. However, I can say with fair confidence that the leadership of many major global companies are really focusing on discriminatory problems that exist in the US and elsewhere, and tackling hate speech is a part of that, because the speech reflects ideas that, although allowable to have, are unacceptable to express because they reinforce the biases that lay beneath and drive actual discrimination. If ZOS wants to have a player community that is inclusive and accepting of all people, they need to have the necessary management tools and a clear expression of intent that prevents hate speech and the expression of discrimination or violence against a particular demographic subset of the population. I think the TOS does the latter part pretty well, but the actual implementation of their intent is where things fall short - and I think that's what this thread is about.