Why is ZOS trying to place the blame on Sony for the recent blue screen situation on PS4?

TequilaFire · November 2019

Yeah, it has had all the symptoms of a classic memory leak in the client at least in regards to the increase of client crashing since the memory management changes.

Ashtaris · November 2019

idk wrote: »

I see nothing in that link that puts the blame on Sony for anything.

PS is nothing more than a computer and blue screens on computers are often due to local issues with the machine. So it would make sense Zos would give that sort of advice as a starting point to work out a blue screen issue.

Have you even tried that or just complaining about it? Have you created a tech support ticket?

So bad coding in software would never cause a computer to crash eh? Riiiiggghhhhtttt.

cheifsoap · November 2019

Typical ZOS reply

1. Clean up the thread's "bashing"
2. Suggest people log a ticket

Well done. Communication and productivity are stellar today.

idk · November 2019

lordrichter wrote: »

idk wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

idk wrote: »

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

@IDK yes, I tried all the steps. Doesn't work. Just the existence of a generic help article like that is showing me that ZOS doesn't care who is at fault. Everyone, and I mean everyone who plays on PS4 has the same problem, many times a day. So you're saying that everyone's console is malfunctioning? Give me a break.

So are you saying that you did submit a tech support and all Zos techies would do is provide that generic article and nothing else?

Yes, they probably did. That may be all that the USER can do. The alternative is to suggest that blue might be a good choice for a new favorite color.

An internal response is not indicated by this studio, so the response will either be nothing, or whatever Sony suggests in cases like this.

Both ZOS and Sony know that the problem is with ESO. I am pretty sure of that. Whether they will fix it... that is a better line of discussion.

Could be but it is all speculation. You even admit that by suggesting you are sure both Sony and Zos know the problem is with ESO.

I expect the OP will answer the question later in the day about their ticket.

Some of that is not speculation. Support needs to try to attempt to resolve the user's problem with tools and information that is currently available. That is why they hand out what Sony suggests in this situation. That is why they tell people to reboot the router, call their ISP, and all these other things that people make fun of.

The speculation is about what is happening in the backend, and whether ZOS and Sony feel the problem is ESO. Given that this started, or got worse, with the latest update, I would suggest that prudence suggests that it is. It is not the role of support to keep players up to date on the internal status. That is the way ZOS has defined this.

I agree Support needs to help this person. It is why I sought clarification from OP that they had in fact submitted a ticket vs doing what the website support suggested. I also tagged BillE to help though a ticket number will be needed for a solid chance at help.

I am certainly not suggesting Zos is not the issue as both of us can only guess. I am of the opinion Matt Firor is over their head a president if Zos and as a result ESO has been suffering over the past few years with the most noticeable issues cropping up in recent months. If they ever get capable leadership I expect much progress can be made in how the game performs on all platforms.

AgaTheGreat · November 2019

idk wrote: »

I agree Support needs to help this person. .

*these people.

This things affects all PS4 players. And like I said, I tweeted bethesda support, I also have a ticket pending and guess what the email reply was? Yes, clear your cash, reinstall the game blah blah blah.

You play on the console? If not, sit down son.

I don't have time for white knights at the moment.

That problem affects the entire PS4 playerbase, not just me or 10 odd people.

nafensoriel · November 2019

Aurielle wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

I think people who buy consoles fail to understand the nature of a console's hardware.

It is no different than a PC.
It is technically budget hardware.
It almost always has insufficient cooling compared to PCs.

Hardware faults in consoles happen way more often than people think. People ignore them because of course their expensive purchase cant be made of garbage parts... but the reality is it is a mass manufactured device made as cheaply as possible and it has a very narrow planned lifespan.

Is this ZOSs fault? Nope. Is it Sonys fault? Oddly enough not really.

It's just the nature of hardware that if you push it at 100% with poor cooling it will degrade.

Without having your console in hand there aren't many ways people on a forum can determine if it's actually software or simple old degraded hardware. It COULD be a code issue.. but it could equally just be that your console's memory is baking itself and throwing out random errors because of it.

Condescending, much? I would be willing to place good money on the fact that the vast majority of console users understand that their consoles are basically budget gaming computers. We also understand that if ONE game in our entire library consistently crashes multiple times in a single session, and that these crashes have increased multifold after a particular update, the issue is most likely NOT OUR HARDWARE, but rather the inept developers who have not adequately tested the update before pushing it live.

Condescending? No. Realist? Yes.
There is a fundamental difference between someone who spends 600 bucks to game and someone who spends 600 bucks to buy a console. The expectation is the console is top tier. When the new XBox releases people will be mad if PCs look better just like they've been mad about the exact same issue for past console releases.

But that wasn't my point. My point was that a PC user who buys a budget PC expects crap hardware that will degrade over time. A console user usually thinks it will not degrade and their 5-year-old console sitting in a dusty cabinet with poor ventilation isn't degraded. Everything becomes everyone else's issue... it couldn't POSSIBLY be that they abused their hardware now, could it?

And if you "understand one game causes issues" so it must be that game.. then no you really don't understand squat. You are comparing apples to bricks of iron. If all the other titles in your catalog do not stress the console the way the one that fails do you CANNOT AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME SOFTWARE FAILURE. As I have noted the PS4 has some serious bottleneck issues. Most developers can work around these... but games like ESO really push memory hard. What is one of the first parts to start dying when you abuse your console(or PC) and let it overheat regularly? Memory.

With everything people have said in this thread the chance that its software or hardware is 50/50. Sucks but welcome to consoles.

So every PS4 user experiencing these issues multifold after this latest update has possibly “abused” their console by letting it overheat. All of our other memory-intensive multiplayer games run well on our systems with minimal to no issues, but it’s possibly OUR fault that ESO specifically crashes upwards of five to six times per hour after the update — something that did not happen for us immediately prior to the update. Okay, gotcha. 👍

A "blue screen" identifies a problem with the hardwares relation to the software or itself. This is different from a software triggered crash which would only exit the program.

Have you ever owned a PS4? When we colloquially refer to a “blue screen”, we’re referring to the report screen automatically generated after a game crashes that uses the PS4’s default blue UI. A PS4 “blue screen” is not the equivalent of a PC’s BSOD. When games crash on PS4, we simply file the report and start the game up again — as you do on PC when a software-triggered crash shuts down the game. We don’t have to reboot the PS4 itself.

Ahh! well, then what we have here ladies and gentlemen is a failure to communicate. For me over the last 40 years of working "blue screen" equaled a hardware failure. Good to know. And no one of my hands has significant nerve damage. I cannot operate a console controller very well so I have never owned the product. I follow their development through because specialized engineering excites me(well when they used to be specialized).

If you are NOT experiencing a hard fault then it's a software fault. That's on ZOS and it looks like(/snipImreadingtwothreadsatonce)in another thread they actually said exactly what that fault was and are already on top of a fix! There is a memory leak. It is currently in QA.

Aurielle · November 2019

nafensoriel wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

I think people who buy consoles fail to understand the nature of a console's hardware.

It is no different than a PC.
It is technically budget hardware.
It almost always has insufficient cooling compared to PCs.

Hardware faults in consoles happen way more often than people think. People ignore them because of course their expensive purchase cant be made of garbage parts... but the reality is it is a mass manufactured device made as cheaply as possible and it has a very narrow planned lifespan.

Is this ZOSs fault? Nope. Is it Sonys fault? Oddly enough not really.

It's just the nature of hardware that if you push it at 100% with poor cooling it will degrade.

Without having your console in hand there aren't many ways people on a forum can determine if it's actually software or simple old degraded hardware. It COULD be a code issue.. but it could equally just be that your console's memory is baking itself and throwing out random errors because of it.

Condescending, much? I would be willing to place good money on the fact that the vast majority of console users understand that their consoles are basically budget gaming computers. We also understand that if ONE game in our entire library consistently crashes multiple times in a single session, and that these crashes have increased multifold after a particular update, the issue is most likely NOT OUR HARDWARE, but rather the inept developers who have not adequately tested the update before pushing it live.

Condescending? No. Realist? Yes.
There is a fundamental difference between someone who spends 600 bucks to game and someone who spends 600 bucks to buy a console. The expectation is the console is top tier. When the new XBox releases people will be mad if PCs look better just like they've been mad about the exact same issue for past console releases.

But that wasn't my point. My point was that a PC user who buys a budget PC expects crap hardware that will degrade over time. A console user usually thinks it will not degrade and their 5-year-old console sitting in a dusty cabinet with poor ventilation isn't degraded. Everything becomes everyone else's issue... it couldn't POSSIBLY be that they abused their hardware now, could it?

And if you "understand one game causes issues" so it must be that game.. then no you really don't understand squat. You are comparing apples to bricks of iron. If all the other titles in your catalog do not stress the console the way the one that fails do you CANNOT AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME SOFTWARE FAILURE. As I have noted the PS4 has some serious bottleneck issues. Most developers can work around these... but games like ESO really push memory hard. What is one of the first parts to start dying when you abuse your console(or PC) and let it overheat regularly? Memory.

With everything people have said in this thread the chance that its software or hardware is 50/50. Sucks but welcome to consoles.

So every PS4 user experiencing these issues multifold after this latest update has possibly “abused” their console by letting it overheat. All of our other memory-intensive multiplayer games run well on our systems with minimal to no issues, but it’s possibly OUR fault that ESO specifically crashes upwards of five to six times per hour after the update — something that did not happen for us immediately prior to the update. Okay, gotcha. 👍

A "blue screen" identifies a problem with the hardwares relation to the software or itself. This is different from a software triggered crash which would only exit the program.

Have you ever owned a PS4? When we colloquially refer to a “blue screen”, we’re referring to the report screen automatically generated after a game crashes that uses the PS4’s default blue UI. A PS4 “blue screen” is not the equivalent of a PC’s BSOD. When games crash on PS4, we simply file the report and start the game up again — as you do on PC when a software-triggered crash shuts down the game. We don’t have to reboot the PS4 itself.

Ahh! well, then what we have here ladies and gentlemen is a failure to communicate. For me over the last 40 years of working "blue screen" equaled a hardware failure. Good to know. And no one of my hands has significant nerve damage. I cannot operate a console controller very well so I have never owned the product. I follow their development through because specialized engineering excites me(well when they used to be specialized).

If you are NOT experiencing a hard fault then it's a software fault. That's on ZOS and it looks like(/snipImreadingtwothreadsatonce)in another thread they actually said exactly what that fault was and are already on top of a fix! There is a memory leak. It is currently in QA.

PS4 users really should clarify what they mean by “blue screen” — apologies, the term has such a well-known, specific meaning within the PlayStation community, and it’s easy to forget that PC users might not be familiar with it.

If there is in fact a memory leak and ZOS manages to successfully patch it, then I will likely end up reinstalling the game. Until then, though, it’s completely unplayable.

On the bright side, I’m currently enjoying The Outer Worlds, a quirky little space RPG that I probably wouldn’t have downloaded if ESO was functioning properly. Silver linings.

apri · November 2019

nafensoriel wrote: »

But that wasn't my point. My point was that a PC user who buys a budget PC expects crap hardware that will degrade over time. A console user usually thinks it will not degrade and their 5-year-old console sitting in a dusty cabinet with poor ventilation isn't degraded. Everything becomes everyone else's issue... it couldn't POSSIBLY be that they abused their hardware now, could it?

You may lack some experience without playing on PS4. But if you are in PSN feeds or discords with way more than hundred active people playing ESO and every single one experiences a tremendous increase of random crashes on PS4 out of a sudden since Dragonborn, it's highly likely that any hardware malfunction speculation is off the record. It's the game. And it is something that either broke something or increased a pre-existing problem with the last update.

And as a side-note, based on the PS 4's fan activity, ESO does not even seem to be hard on the PS4 (Pro)'s hardware. Compared to highly optimized games like Destiny that actually push the console to its limits, the fan during even the hottest combat action does not even run high. That's just a side-note because we have no way to analyze what's going on on console and cannot even provide support with any kind of log.

I highly suggest to send the bug reports after each crash to Sony which may (hopefully) alert Sony that something is broken with this very game. I doubt Sony is happy with broken games running on their platform.

lagrue · November 2019

apri wrote: »

And as a side-note, based on the PS 4's fan activity, ESO does not even seem to be hard on the PS4 (Pro)'s hardware. Compared to highly optimized games like Destiny that actually push the console to its limits, the fan during even the hottest combat action does not even run high..

Really? I have a launch Pro and the fans scream something awful in ESO's combat. In fact Destiny 2 runs quieter on my system. ESO is quiet for me roaming in PVE... but dang step into a dungeon, trial, fight a Dragon, do a Dolmen, or PVP and we're ready to take off on the next flight to the moon. Incidentally all activities with the highest crash rates.
.

apri · November 2019

Yeah. Mine is not very noisy during ESO regardless what's going on. I'm actually grateful for that

nafensoriel · November 2019

apri wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

But that wasn't my point. My point was that a PC user who buys a budget PC expects crap hardware that will degrade over time. A console user usually thinks it will not degrade and their 5-year-old console sitting in a dusty cabinet with poor ventilation isn't degraded. Everything becomes everyone else's issue... it couldn't POSSIBLY be that they abused their hardware now, could it?

You may lack some experience without playing on PS4. But if you are in PSN feeds or discords with way more than hundred active people playing ESO and every single one experiences a tremendous increase of random crashes on PS4 out of a sudden since Dragonborn, it's highly likely that any hardware malfunction speculation is off the record. It's the game. And it is something that either broke something or increased a pre-existing problem with the last update.

And as a side-note, based on the PS 4's fan activity, ESO does not even seem to be hard on the PS4 (Pro)'s hardware. Compared to highly optimized games like Destiny that actually push the console to its limits, the fan during even the hottest combat action does not even run high. That's just a side-note because we have no way to analyze what's going on on console and cannot even provide support with any kind of log.

I highly suggest to send the bug reports after each crash to Sony which may (hopefully) alert Sony that something is broken with this very game. I doubt Sony is happy with broken games running on their platform.

Almost nothing will stress the actual CPU of the system since it's oversized compared to its GPU. Hardware-wise the only really giant glaring flaw of the system(even happened with PS3 but for different reasons) is the memory. Anything with large worlds or lots of things being loaded stresses the sony platforms and sony knows it but doesn't care because very few developers push their software that way. This happens in PCs too where you might not realize a game that barely touches a GPU or CPU might just be screaming your memory to death in the background. The fan of just about any platform(pc included) does not actually care what temp things like VRM or memory are. There are TONS of motherboards that will have ROASTINGLY hot VRMs when the CPU is barely under load and thus the fan isn't running very hard. GPUs are similar with memory depending on the board/manufacturer.

Originally when I thought it was a hardware failure I was trying to wrap my head around people thinking both Sonys QA and ZOS QA failed or were in collusion for an error that triggered a hardware level crash. Usually, Sonys team is pretty good at finding those and sending it back for refinement. Sending a report to sony won't help as much if its a memory leak. They'll just kick it back to ZOS.

Hopefully, the ZOS fix gets pushed soon and solves the issue.

ApostateHobo · November 2019

My ps4 is whisper quiet with eso, only occasionally ramps up if there's 20+ people spamming skills at a dolmen or dragon. Doubt eso is pushing it too hard.

Malem_Benign · November 2019

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

According to the help article (that has been posted a week ago) here https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/37022/kw
you have to either power off and on your console, reinstall the game, or factory reset your console. If all of the above don't work we have to contact Sony customer support.

So far there has been no official statement on blue screens besides this help article. So we are lead to believe that everyone who experiences constant blue screens should blame the console and its software.

Great.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Can you please, please comment on what is going on. The entire playstation community has to put up with several blue screens daily and so far nothing has been said.

I see that kind of problem is not just ESO-related. Many games crash PS with that kind of stuff, right?

apri · November 2019

nafensoriel wrote: »

Hopefully, the ZOS fix gets pushed soon and solves the issue.

I don't understand most of what you said in detail (sorry I'm no expert) but on this I can fully agree.

I would actually be happy already if ZOS would at some point confirm that the problem got their attention and is worked on because it happens so frequently and spoils the fun in this game tremendously. But as usual we stay in the dark.

Nordic__Knights · November 2019

Its been an week or so that i stopped playing due to this reason with 13,000 hrs logged for ESO this is by far the WORST ive ever seen it upwards of 15 BLUESCREENS within an hr 1st day of dragonhold release and please stay its my PS4 thats doing it lol my room never gets over 65° is hardlined with 780up 460down on an tri fan cooler because i play 16hrs per day i understand to KEEP my system hardware upgraded and in top order so i can ENJOY my gaming and ESO is unpleasant to play due to its LACK of care

Nordic__Knights · November 2019

ApostateHobo wrote: »

My ps4 is whisper quiet with eso, only occasionally ramps up if there's 20+ people spamming skills at a dolmen or dragon. Doubt eso is pushing it too hard.

I forgot there is an fan in mine as i have an tri fan cooler 😆 😆 😆

Elsonso · November 2019

idk wrote: »

I am of the opinion Matt Firor is over their head a president if Zos and as a result ESO has been suffering over the past few years with the most noticeable issues cropping up in recent months. If they ever get capable leadership I expect much progress can be made in how the game performs on all platforms.

I am not attributing incompetence to Firor. I don't have any reason to think that.

I do think that ZOS is attempting to keep ESO within budget. This is bad on one side, because it takes longer to fix things and things are more wild west. On the other side, the game is not seen as blowing the budget and the risk of just cutting it loose and moving on is reduced. I see this as a tight-rope, and I do not want to be the one to walk it. If Firor can do it, then he is right for the job.

My BIG complaint about ZOS is that they have a tendency to make things worse for themselves with this incessant over communication and insistence on keeping everyone informed and up to date.

/sarcasm I have lost track of how many things have just been worse because no one at ZOS authorized someone to tell the players what is going on, and what they should expect. In a timely manner. I don't know who makes that decision, but I would really like to understand why they communicate the way they do. I am guessing "budget tight-rope", but I have to think that poor customer support and communication actually has a negative impact on revenue potential.

So, YES, in this case, for this thread, ZOS should be communicating what they can do to help with the PS4 game crash, and whether it is something that people can expect to be addressed sooner, or later.

IwakuraLain42 · November 2019

lagrue wrote: »

apri wrote: »

And as a side-note, based on the PS 4's fan activity, ESO does not even seem to be hard on the PS4 (Pro)'s hardware. Compared to highly optimized games like Destiny that actually push the console to its limits, the fan during even the hottest combat action does not even run high..

Really? I have a launch Pro and the fans scream something awful in ESO's combat. In fact Destiny 2 runs quieter on my system. ESO is quiet for me roaming in PVE... but dang step into a dungeon, trial, fight a Dragon, do a Dolmen, or PVP and we're ready to take off on the next flight to the moon. Incidentally all activities with the highest crash rates.
.

That depends a lot on the generation of the console. My older Pro can be very loud while a newer model is more silent. For ESO it also depends on the resolution: 4K naive is very loud, 1080enhanced is silent.

AgaTheGreat · November 2019

ZOS helpdesk agents don't even understand the difference between rebuilding the database and initialising the console. I don't think they're equipped to deal with any situation like that

Tan9oSuccka · November 2019

Hapexamendios wrote: »

My other PS4 games aren’t crashing so why is this one?

Same. Seems to be an ESO issue. I ran though Borderlands 3, GTA V and Wildlands without any problem.

Since the last DLC came out, I can count on at least two blue screens per night.

It was so severe the other night, about 20 plus from my trade guild all blue screened at the same time.

redlink1979 · November 2019

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

According to the help article (that has been posted a week ago) here https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/37022/kw
you have to either power off and on your console, reinstall the game, or factory reset your console. If all of the above don't work we have to contact Sony customer support.

So far there has been no official statement on blue screens besides this help article. So we are lead to believe that everyone who experiences constant blue screens should blame the console and its software.

Great.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Can you please, please comment on what is going on. The entire playstation community has to put up with several blue screens daily and so far nothing has been said.

Servers, across all platforms, can't handle the amount of data properly. Nothing else.

Forget those instructions from both supports (consoles n ZOS): Don't erase/reinstall the game, don't do a factory reset on your equipment. It's just a waste of time tbh.

If your game freezes or goes blue screen, just open the app/client again.

idk · November 2019

Ashtaris wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I see nothing in that link that puts the blame on Sony for anything.

PS is nothing more than a computer and blue screens on computers are often due to local issues with the machine. So it would make sense Zos would give that sort of advice as a starting point to work out a blue screen issue.

Have you even tried that or just complaining about it? Have you created a tech support ticket?

So bad coding in software would never cause a computer to crash eh? Riiiiggghhhhtttt.

@Ashtaris

I did not speak in absolute terms so your comment makes no sense. But thx for the thought.

idk · November 2019

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I agree Support needs to help this person. .

*these people.

This things affects all PS4 players. And like I said, I tweeted bethesda support, I also have a ticket pending and guess what the email reply was? Yes, clear your cash, reinstall the game blah blah blah.

You play on the console? If not, sit down son.

I don't have time for white knights at the moment.

That problem affects the entire PS4 playerbase, not just me or 10 odd people.

Okay daddy'o. I was not hostile with you so I suggest cooling those jets and not be hostile with me. Especially falsely calling me a white knight. The fact that I tagged BillE who seems to follow up on tech issues and ticket issues more than most and asked some questions about if you filed a ticket is hardly white knighting. lol.

BTW, I do have a console account. Thx for asking.

I also assume you followed up on that ticket to tell them the steps did not help. Often their first reply is an auto reply or standard boiler plate. If the player does not follow up within 96 hours they close the ticket which has tripped up some players iirc.

Again, this is merely trying to be mildly helpful.

@ZOS_JesC the OP of this thread, AgaTheGreat, has submitted a ticket and only got that support article as a response, which clearly did not succeed. Since they are not getting additional help from tech support can you help push this along.

TequilaFire · November 2019

We have to wait for the patch that PC got earlier in the week that hopefully will address some of the issues.

Tiff_ar15 · November 2019

PS4 player here. my machine runs every other game smoothly..never crashses. So I find it difficult to believe that it's my hardware. Was in a dungeon earlier, we all disconnected, one by one - so we all have bad hardware? Those of us on ps4 know how often we get disconnected. It's a miracle if I get through a trial or dungeon without a bluescreen.