MagDK Sustain

WoppaBoem · November 2019

Big design error currently with MagDK. You are encouraged to use Ardent Flame abilities to proc up your Whip. Only Cauterize last 15 second burning embers and Engulfing Flames now last 14 seconds. That does not make sense. You pay for 15 and 14 seconds but are encouraged to use the frequently to buff up your whip? Both Burning Embers and Engulfing Flames have something really good design that is upfront damage. Please shorten the duration of this Dots by half and reduce the cost. This makes an ideal design, the skills give upfront damage and debuff and dots and you can move to stun and whip. And repeat.

I run the below build with Bright Boast, 2 recovery glyps and 1 cost reduction just to manage to have enough sustain to play the class. MagDK does not need 14 seconds dots. Please address this asap as sustain is in a real bad place on the magdk

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=179199

Hixtory · November 2019

Agree, but gonna happen... NO

Why, because PVP they buffed whip to give us some kind of execute. And it works, but for PVE is a pain in the ass and mess with rotation trying to buff the whip

Vildebill · November 2019

They wanted to help MagDK in PvE and made the PvE morph of whip dependent on spamming non-spammables. Now we have two PvP morphs...

Meanwhile at ZOS:

robpr · November 2019

DK sustain was always nuts. Combustion passive works good on paper but in pvp its hard to keep up with ability costs DK have.
In my opinion, Combustion should work like this: "Restore 500 magicka every 2s if target is Burning. Restore 500 stamina every 2s if target is Poisoned". Enhances DK as "the DoT class", rewards user for keeping pressure and DoTs on target. Current Combustion only works with sets and abilities that forces procs but even then its not ideal.
Other way of DK sustain would be increasing ult generation. 3 ult every 6s doesn't sound bad, but its tied to most expensive abilities the class have. It's fixed for StamDK, but MagDK doesn't benefit from it at all. I would change it to "If Earthen Heart ability is slotted, generate 3 Ultimate every 6s while in combat"

As for Whip, they could just change it to how Necro Skull works (every 3rd Whip do 100% more damage) or Seething Fury gains stacks whenever apply Burning or Poisoned same way current Combustion works.

OG_Kaveman · November 2019

You don't need to keep the stacks of seething fury up in pve, just load your front bar with the other 3 skills from ardent flame and just use whip like a spammable, the extra damage is like getting 2 "spammables" in one cast.

Lokey0024 · November 2019

Was advocating for whip to be able to charge whip. Only makes sense.

jcm2606 · November 2019

Molten Whip is just poorly designed, IMO. DK is the DoT/attrition class, why does it have a powerful burst skill, something akin to a Sorc or NB burst skill?

IMO, it should be reworked into something that synergises more with DoT's. Flame Lash works as a burst skill because it synergises with DK's control, and offers some aggressive healing to further synergise with the attrition playstyle. Molten Whip doesn't work, because it has next to no synergy with the DK playstyle, in fact it goes against the DK playstyle.

Maybe move the off balance functionality of Flame Lash into the base skill, and have Molten Whip either consume all DoT's and have them deal all of their remaining damage at once in a burst (encourages DoT stacking, synergising with the DoT playstyle), OR have Molten Whip empower all applied DoT's when you consecutively hit an off balanced target (gives extra pressure, synergising with the DoT playstyle). Something like that.

devilsTear · November 2019

I dunno but I have no problem sustaining my Dunmer magdk, my base regen is about 1100 and that's all I need combined with my pot, burning, ele drain and battle roar.

In cyro it even goes up with continuous attack, but then again I'm a magdk main since console launch and I've always ran low regen builds.

Lughlongarm · November 2019

Sounds like a non issue to me. If you have problems sustaining it means something is off with either your build or your gameplay. It got nothing to do with design of molten whip or the dot skills.

1 - Engulfing Flames is also a debuff so you want it to last long as possible. If anything, reducing the duration of this skill will add to the overall sustain required.

2- You can do a rotation of using, Engulfing Flames, Burning Embers and Cauterize/Flames of Oblivion, You don't have to spam same skill all the time.

3 - Burning Embers with 5 light armor will cost you - 2673 magicka, you are getting back 500 magicka from the Combustion passive. SO total of 2,173 magicka, which cheaper than most spammable skills, so you cannot argue it is expensive to spam.

4-It is not a total waste to refresh Burning Embers, you are getting the initial damage, the re applying burning and the self heal. If you re-apply Burning Embers every 4 sec, you are basically utilizing 50% of Burning Embers total damage and healing potential and re-applying burning exactly when it is about to end. It is a great trade-off.

5- If you just want the ultimate molten whip buffer, you can just use Unrelenting Grip. First use will cost ya, but if you will spam it after that on same target, it will be free for duration of the stun immunity.

And0ssus · November 2019

Just Play with perfected asylum destro in PvE (Force Pulse as spammable). The Sustain with it, is nuts.
You get a really high Uptime for Burning .... so you almost restore every 2 Seconds 500 Magicka.

WoppaBoem · November 2019

Most of all your comments are

jcm2606 wrote: »

Molten Whip is just poorly designed, IMO. DK is the DoT/attrition class, why does it have a powerful burst skill, something akin to a Sorc or NB burst skill?

IMO, it should be reworked into something that synergises more with DoT's. Flame Lash works as a burst skill because it synergises with DK's control, and offers some aggressive healing to further synergise with the attrition playstyle. Molten Whip doesn't work, because it has next to no synergy with the DK playstyle, in fact it goes against the DK playstyle.

Maybe move the off balance functionality of Flame Lash into the base skill, and have Molten Whip either consume all DoT's and have them deal all of their remaining damage at once in a burst (encourages DoT stacking, synergising with the DoT playstyle), OR have Molten Whip empower all applied DoT's when you consecutively hit an off balanced target (gives extra pressure, synergising with the DoT playstyle). Something like that.

Sorry for your experience but I wreck people with the new whip so in regards of that I am very happy. I love the line your burst play. The problem is the line your burst skills are expensive and last for 14 seconds while you do your burst like every 5 to 7 seconds.

I sounds you are still happy with the Flame Lash, the dots and that skill do still work fine together.

WoppaBoem · November 2019

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Sounds like a non issue to me. If you have problems sustaining it means something is off with either your build or your gameplay. It got nothing to do with design of molten whip or the dot skills.

1 - Engulfing Flames is also a debuff so you want it to last long as possible. If anything, reducing the duration of this skill will add to the overall sustain required.

2- You can do a rotation of using, Engulfing Flames, Burning Embers and Cauterize/Flames of Oblivion, You don't have to spam same skill all the time.

3 - Burning Embers with 5 light armor will cost you - 2673 magicka, you are getting back 500 magicka from the Combustion passive. SO total of 2,173 magicka, which cheaper than most spammable skills, so you cannot argue it is expensive to spam.

4-It is not a total waste to refresh Burning Embers, you are getting the initial damage, the re applying burning and the self heal. If you re-apply Burning Embers every 4 sec, you are basically utilizing 50% of Burning Embers total damage and healing potential and re-applying burning exactly when it is about to end. It is a great trade-off.

5- If you just want the ultimate molten whip buffer, you can just use Unrelenting Grip. First use will cost ya, but if you will spam it after that on same target, it will be free for duration of the stun immunity.

Your a bit strange but somewhat makes sense. Burning embers was really cheap now not so much. Engulfings direct damage is a lot and in a cone 10m you want to spam that on multiple enemies then leap them or fossilze one enemy leap and whip to kill. So yes Engulfing is spammed a lot. The long duration while the direct damage AOE is a big part of the appeal of that skill wrecks sustain.

I do kill a lot of people so I magdk again this patch. Last patch without purge for the OP dots it was non playable.

The premises of my case is, you need to use 3 ardent flame skills to get fully procced whip. But those skill all last 14 second and you pay accordingly, you suggest above just wait for them to run out and reapply, while doing that not proccing your whip and do what exactly? The design the developers created is to spam other ardent flame abilities to proc up whip. With the current state that very hard to sustain. So its bit much its on me rather than a big design flaw.

They need to tailer the ardent flame abilities to support the proccing of the whip.

BlackMadara · November 2019

WoppaBoem wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Sounds like a non issue to me. If you have problems sustaining it means something is off with either your build or your gameplay. It got nothing to do with design of molten whip or the dot skills.

1 - Engulfing Flames is also a debuff so you want it to last long as possible. If anything, reducing the duration of this skill will add to the overall sustain required.

2- You can do a rotation of using, Engulfing Flames, Burning Embers and Cauterize/Flames of Oblivion, You don't have to spam same skill all the time.

3 - Burning Embers with 5 light armor will cost you - 2673 magicka, you are getting back 500 magicka from the Combustion passive. SO total of 2,173 magicka, which cheaper than most spammable skills, so you cannot argue it is expensive to spam.

4-It is not a total waste to refresh Burning Embers, you are getting the initial damage, the re applying burning and the self heal. If you re-apply Burning Embers every 4 sec, you are basically utilizing 50% of Burning Embers total damage and healing potential and re-applying burning exactly when it is about to end. It is a great trade-off.

5- If you just want the ultimate molten whip buffer, you can just use Unrelenting Grip. First use will cost ya, but if you will spam it after that on same target, it will be free for duration of the stun immunity.

Your a bit strange but somewhat makes sense. Burning embers was really cheap now not so much. Engulfings direct damage is a lot and in a cone 10m you want to spam that on multiple enemies then leap them or fossilze one enemy leap and whip to kill. So yes Engulfing is spammed a lot. The long duration while the direct damage AOE is a big part of the appeal of that skill wrecks sustain.

I do kill a lot of people so I magdk again this patch. Last patch without purge for the OP dots it was non playable.

The premises of my case is, you need to use 3 ardent flame skills to get fully procced whip. But those skill all last 14 second and you pay accordingly, you suggest above just wait for them to run out and reapply, while doing that not proccing your whip and do what exactly? The design the developers created is to spam other ardent flame abilities to proc up whip. With the current state that very hard to sustain. So its bit much its on me rather than a big design flaw.

They need to tailer the ardent flame abilities to support the proccing of the whip.

Molten Whip isn't meant to be "spammed." It is designed to have a high burst instance periodically while using DK dots. I do agree that it is a bit strange, but the play style can be effective and is fine imo.

Noldornir · November 2019

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Sounds like a non issue to me. If you have problems sustaining it means something is off with either your build or your gameplay. It got nothing to do with design of molten whip or the dot skills.

1 - Engulfing Flames is also a debuff so you want it to last long as possible. If anything, reducing the duration of this skill will add to the overall sustain required.

2- You can do a rotation of using, Engulfing Flames, Burning Embers and Cauterize/Flames of Oblivion, You don't have to spam same skill all the time.

3 - Burning Embers with 5 light armor will cost you - 2673 magicka, you are getting back 500 magicka from the Combustion passive. SO total of 2,173 magicka, which cheaper than most spammable skills, so you cannot argue it is expensive to spam.

4-It is not a total waste to refresh Burning Embers, you are getting the initial damage, the re applying burning and the self heal. If you re-apply Burning Embers every 4 sec, you are basically utilizing 50% of Burning Embers total damage and healing potential and re-applying burning exactly when it is about to end. It is a great trade-off.

5- If you just want the ultimate molten whip buffer, you can just use Unrelenting Grip. First use will cost ya, but if you will spam it after that on same target, it will be free for duration of the stun immunity.

100% agree.

About 2) I personally use:

Ember claw
Engulfing Flames
Entropy
Flames of Oblivion/Cauterize
Barswap
Elemental Blockade (14 secs morph so it lasts as other dots) (buffed from SF)
Barbed Trap (still buffed)
Eruption (again buffed)
1xWhip (still powered up)
4/5xwhip standard

This takes 14 seconds reapply all dots on need and gives you seething fury bonus.

While this is a pve rotation you can apply the same principle in PvP. Just put the 4 ardent flame in one bar. Cast all but whip. Swap you should have time for 3 skills of choice then reswap n whip at full strength.

tsaescishoeshiner · November 2019

Hot Take: I use Flames of Oblivion as a spammable until whip has 3 charges.

Reason: FoO deals 15% less damage than Molten Whip, BUT:
- buffs the damage of your next whip by 33% (more than the damage lost by using FoO)
- lets you keep the +75-225 Spell Damage until your next whip (or indefinitely)
- is cheaper
- hits 2 targets
- ranged

Rotation: Flames of Oblivion x3, Molten Whip, repeat

I'm no mathemologist but I'm pretty sure it's more damage than whip spamming. And it's fun to get the fully stacked twirly whip animation more often

Edit: Just need to have them on the same bar

tsaescishoeshiner · November 2019

Has anyone tried Charged trait for MagDK sustain? They took off the cooldown on Combustion (500 magicka every time you apply burning). Gives each whip a 42% chance to apply burning, which is like 200 magicka off each whip on average

Vildebill · November 2019

BlackMadara wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Sounds like a non issue to me. If you have problems sustaining it means something is off with either your build or your gameplay. It got nothing to do with design of molten whip or the dot skills.

1 - Engulfing Flames is also a debuff so you want it to last long as possible. If anything, reducing the duration of this skill will add to the overall sustain required.

2- You can do a rotation of using, Engulfing Flames, Burning Embers and Cauterize/Flames of Oblivion, You don't have to spam same skill all the time.

3 - Burning Embers with 5 light armor will cost you - 2673 magicka, you are getting back 500 magicka from the Combustion passive. SO total of 2,173 magicka, which cheaper than most spammable skills, so you cannot argue it is expensive to spam.

4-It is not a total waste to refresh Burning Embers, you are getting the initial damage, the re applying burning and the self heal. If you re-apply Burning Embers every 4 sec, you are basically utilizing 50% of Burning Embers total damage and healing potential and re-applying burning exactly when it is about to end. It is a great trade-off.

5- If you just want the ultimate molten whip buffer, you can just use Unrelenting Grip. First use will cost ya, but if you will spam it after that on same target, it will be free for duration of the stun immunity.

Your a bit strange but somewhat makes sense. Burning embers was really cheap now not so much. Engulfings direct damage is a lot and in a cone 10m you want to spam that on multiple enemies then leap them or fossilze one enemy leap and whip to kill. So yes Engulfing is spammed a lot. The long duration while the direct damage AOE is a big part of the appeal of that skill wrecks sustain.

I do kill a lot of people so I magdk again this patch. Last patch without purge for the OP dots it was non playable.

The premises of my case is, you need to use 3 ardent flame skills to get fully procced whip. But those skill all last 14 second and you pay accordingly, you suggest above just wait for them to run out and reapply, while doing that not proccing your whip and do what exactly? The design the developers created is to spam other ardent flame abilities to proc up whip. With the current state that very hard to sustain. So its bit much its on me rather than a big design flaw.

They need to tailer the ardent flame abilities to support the proccing of the whip.

Molten Whip isn't meant to be "spammed." It is designed to have a high burst instance periodically while using DK dots. I do agree that it is a bit strange, but the play style can be effective and is fine imo.

What? It's a direct damage ability and has worked as a spammable since the game was released. It's just some moron at ZOS that thought it was good to buff it up by spamming dots.

ZOS themselves nerfed the direct damage part of all DOTs a while ago to remove the incentive to spam them, but still made this stupid mechanic. Nothing with molten whip works as it should, it is now delayed burst skill in a spammable. Worst change for DK I've seen.