Enemy soldiers in Orsinium and future DLC

tinythinker · October 2015

Sorry if another post says the exact same thing posted below (I didn't see one that did); if so, post a link in a comment and I will head there. If not...

I get that lore is flexible in the Elder Scrolls, and I'm fine with that. But when I checked out Orsinium the day it hit PTS, I took a Captain of the Pact's army right into a major stronghold of the enemy. I talked to the mother of a leader of that soldier's enemy, in that enemy leader's own city. I wandered around, free to do whatever I wanted. Eventually, I could have met him but I was too busy exploring other things. I know that there is this idea that the Orc king wants something that goes beyond the Three Banners War, but does this not strike anyone else as strange? I mean, what are the odds that none of the Dominion or Pact soldiers who answered the call to help would try to assassinate the ruler of Orsinium? That they would, as known enemies of the Covenant, be given unrestricted access to all of Wrothgar?

People also hope to see other areas of Tamriel in future DLC, like (more of) the Summerset Isles and places like Vvardenfell. Cool. Very cool. But really? EP and DC soldiers will be roaming free around the Isles? AD and DC officers will be strolling through Pact territory?

Maybe no one else cares about this illogic. I get it. Just explore and have fun. But it's kind of immersion-breaking for some of us. And, no, this isn't just like doing Cadwell's Silver or Gold, because this isn't a disguise or altered timeline created by Meridia. The messenger from Orsinium comes to your home alliance territory and addresses you as your undisguised/unaltered self.

Even if you are cool with not being immediately and severely warned against causing trouble the moment you step into the Orc capital, and even if this issue is addressed in later main quest dialogue, this will wear thin in future excursions deep into enemy territory. Some areas on the border or which aren't really fully committed to an Alliance make sense as destinations for all, like deep in Argonia, the outlands of Elsweyr, western Skyrim etc. But what about the rest?

I can see those who are ranked "Civilian" passing through with no problem, but not soldiers. Could there at least be some effort to recognize this for future DLC taking place in Alliance territory, like having to get a disguise to sneak across the border, using forged documents to bypass suspicion, etc? A token effort at least, if not an actual chance now and then of being caught (like what happens when you have a bounty in the justice system)?

Your thoughts?

PBpsy · October 2015

Soldier? None of my characters are stinking soldiers. At most they are mercenaries that fight for said alliance because they miraculously pooped up into those guys territorial waters and had nothing better to do. When they have enough gold they will just gather armies and form their own kingdoms . Screw those other guys.

Also if I were a soldier. It wouldn't actually wear an uniform or anything to mark me as such. It would be actually strange for most people to recognize me as that EP guy. There are actually a plenty instances in the game where people seem to know you already for no particular good reason. They must have googled me up or something.

Lokryn · October 2015

I agree. Some effort should have been put into the intro and quest dialog to acknowledge the fact that other alliance adventurers are helping the Orcs out.

In a similar vein, this is one of the reasons why I hate seeing MMOs (seems a lot are doing this now) make the player the sole Hero of the story. That is great for single player games but it makes for a confusing immersion breaking experience in MMO lore/stories. We basically have to completely ignore most of the content from a RP perspective. This is the case for the main story but I hope it's not for Orsinium because the Orc King is asking for help from multiple adventurers. I would be very disappointed if when completing the zone, you are treated as the only hero.

I realize that this is supposed to be solo content but from a immersion and RP perspective, the Orcs should be hinting that they are receiving help from other faceless, nameless adventurers like yourself.

Cathexis · October 2015

@tinythinker

There are actually some fairly reasonable explanations within the lore.

In the covenant quest lines you come to realize a number of things about the orcs.

-Orsinium has been destroyed by the other covenant races once before* pardon; it is destroyed a few times throughout history
-the orc people are devided as to whether they should support the covenant
-many orc tribes are scattered all over tamriel (I can't recall if some are not hostile but I'm pretty sure some are not), and at least coexist with other faction races at times.
-the orcs of Orsinium are viewed and feared as a race of strong warriors who frequently attacked the other covenant races -- which was why Orsinium was destroyed

I love the orcs in the elder scrolls series. Their history and presence has always fascinated me which is why I joined the covenant and why I am very eager to explore the new dlc.

Dagoth_Rac · October 2015

That is strange. Seems like it should have been populated by mostly Covenant NPCs and soldiers. With the storyline being that, "Yes, this is enemy faction territory, but you are here as an independent adventurer, not a soldier of the Dominion/Pact." I believe that is how Craglorn worked. If there really are groups of NPC soldiers from all factions wandering around Orsinium like it is no big deal, that is weird.

tinythinker · October 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

@tinythinker

There are actually some fairly reasonable explanations within the lore.

In the covenant quest lines you come to realize a number of things about the orcs.

-Orsinium has been destroyed by the other covenant races twice before.
-the orc people are devided as to whether they should support the covenant
-many orc tribes are scattered all over tamriel (I can't recall if some are not hostile but I'm pretty sure some are not), and at least coexist with other faction races at times.
-the orcs of Orsinium are viewed and feared as a race of strong warriors who frequently attacked the other covenant races -- which was why Orsinium was destroyed

I love the orcs in the elder scrolls series. Their history and presence has always fascinated me which is why I joined the covenant and why I am very eager to explore the new dlc.

As I said, that may work for Orsinium, but it doesn't cover future DLC. And even for Orsinium, yes, some tribes and part of Wrothgar may be non-committal to the Covenant, and understandably so, but my Pact soldier was walking around in Orsinium, the base of power for King Kurog, who is all-in as a supporter of Emeric.

As for future DLC, I mentioned border areas and unaligned areas in Tamriel that wouldn't have the "What in Oblivion are YOU doing here!?" problem, which would get you:

- deep Argonia (the native name for Black Marsh), an area that tends to be separated from the rest of what is happening in Tamriel. Not all Argonians are in love with the Pact.
- remote parts of Elsweyr far from the Elven territories and Cyrodiil.
- the area of Morrowind controlled by the Telvanni.
- western Skyrim, which is ruled by Svartr, High King of Solitude, and definitely not part of the Pact.
- the Reach, ruled as an independent territory at this time by a ruler known as the Despot.
- a few areas of Cyrodiil not included in the present PvP map (areas in the southwest including cities like Skingrad, Kvatch, and Anvil as well as areas in the southeast such as the Blackwood).
- a rebellious province or city in southern Hammerfell (not actually mentioned yet or part of the game/lore but it would fit with the split between Crowns and Forebears, perhaps on that peninsula east of Stros M'Kai).
- an small island or two not officially claimed yet by any Alliance.

Other than that, you are officially in territory firmly controlled by either the Pact, the Dominion, or the Covenant for new zones in Tamriel. I am a fan of new zones eventually occurring outside of Tamriel (another plane, another continent/island chain) or even in Tamriel but in the remote past, the far future, an alternate timeline that needs to be made right, etc. But for those wanting to fill in the main map, plausible and fun mechanisms/challenges should be in place to allow people explore areas they logically should have no access to.

ToRelax · October 2015

I want to play how I want. I want to go there with my Empress character and kill all the dirty Orcs I can find. Otherwise, breaking my immersion, pls fix ZOS.

But srsly, with Cadwell's Silver/Gold or at least with Craglorn it became quite clear they wouldn't adjust their content to you being in another faction than what should be expected there. The explanations for Cadwell's Silver/Gold were already bad enough. At least they are able to create content faster that way I guess.

nimander99 · October 2015

Are we marching around Orsinium with our Alliance banners hanging from our backs like Warhammer Mini's? How do they know what Alliance we are from unless we tell them?

tinythinker · October 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

I want to play how I want. I want to go there with my Empress character and kill all the dirty Orcs I can find. Otherwise, breaking my immersion, pls fix ZOS.

But srsly, with Cadwell's Silver/Gold or at least with Craglorn it became quite clear they wouldn't adjust their content to you being in another faction than what should be expected there. The explanations for Cadwell's Silver/Gold were already bad enough. At least they are able to create content faster that way I guess.

I don't mind Cadwell's adventures since you have the power of a god hiding your true identity. A stretch, yes, but it at least offers an explanation. I have no interest in actually killing Kurog, it just seems weird to walk around freely without a disguise or under false pretenses in the middle of enemy territory.

tinythinker · October 2015

nimander99 wrote: »

Are we marching around Orsinium with our Alliance banners hanging from our backs like Warhammer Mini's? How do they know what Alliance we are from unless we tell them?

You are specifically sought out, by personal invitation, in your home Alliance. Unless Kurog is a total idiot, he knows full well who he is sending messengers to. He is looking for heroes from across Tamriel, and you made the cut. It's the same way a certain queen is fascinated by the chance to meet you once you reach the end of the Pact or Covenant story line if one of those is your home alliance.

Unlike that audience with a queen, there are no soldiers at the ready at the first sign of your betrayal or spies watching from the shadows. Sure, maybe Kurog is willing to take that chance and maybe that works for this DLC, but going forward many players want to see other parts of Tamriel under an Alliance's control, so, I am asking about and asking for mechanics/plot devices that would make such future excursions more fun as well as plausible.

Cathexis · October 2015

tinythinker wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I want to play how I want. I want to go there with my Empress character and kill all the dirty Orcs I can find. Otherwise, breaking my immersion, pls fix ZOS.

But srsly, with Cadwell's Silver/Gold or at least with Craglorn it became quite clear they wouldn't adjust their content to you being in another faction than what should be expected there. The explanations for Cadwell's Silver/Gold were already bad enough. At least they are able to create content faster that way I guess.

I don't mind Cadwell's adventures since you have the power of a god hiding your true identity. A stretch, yes, but it at least offers an explanation. I have no interest in actually killing Kurog, it just seems weird to walk around freely without a disguise or under false pretenses in the middle of enemy territory.

Setting aside the cadwells silver gold argument it still seems logical to me. Just because he supports Emetic does not mean that Wrothgar is controlled by the covenant.

Also the internal politics of each faction are, in a way separate and distinct from the three banners war (occurring largely in the disputed region of cyrodiil. I know there is some cross faction interaction outside of said area but generally that is the center of the conflict. Many factions like the fighters and mages guild also exist across all factions and do exist as neutral entities.

tinythinker · October 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I want to play how I want. I want to go there with my Empress character and kill all the dirty Orcs I can find. Otherwise, breaking my immersion, pls fix ZOS.

But srsly, with Cadwell's Silver/Gold or at least with Craglorn it became quite clear they wouldn't adjust their content to you being in another faction than what should be expected there. The explanations for Cadwell's Silver/Gold were already bad enough. At least they are able to create content faster that way I guess.

I don't mind Cadwell's adventures since you have the power of a god hiding your true identity. A stretch, yes, but it at least offers an explanation. I have no interest in actually killing Kurog, it just seems weird to walk around freely without a disguise or under false pretenses in the middle of enemy territory.

Setting aside the cadwells silver gold argument it still seems logical to me. Just because he supports Emetic does not mean that Wrothgar is controlled by the covenant.

Also the internal politics of each faction are, in a way separate and distinct from the three banners war (occurring largely in the disputed region of cyrodiil. I know there is some cross faction interaction outside of said area but generally that is the center of the conflict. Many factions like the fighters and mages guild also exist across all factions and do exist as neutral entities.

Sure, the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild are neutral, but players don't need to join either and may not be a part of either. And certainly you are not in Orsinium as an official representative of either. Again, Wrothgar the province and Orsinium the city are distinct. I can see slipping into Wrothgar and no one caring per se (no one cared about that Altmer mage who had been part of the Dominion who set up a camp in Shadowfen to bring back his wife). I can also see being given a royal pass as an enemy guest in Orsinium, a kind of diplomatic immunity in exchange for my character's help. Yet, there is little or no acknowledgement of the situation that I've seen. It's just like, "Oh hey, welcome to Orcville, wanna help us with some local issues?"

And again, even letting this issue slide with regard to the Orsinium DLC for various reasons, I don't see the same arguments working for being allowed to roam so freely in other Alliance held territory. I'm not asking for it to be a big hassle for future DLC in such territory. Not at all. But I feel it would be more fun, immersive, logical, etc, if the idea of enemy combatants being out of place was acknowledged.

For example:

- using a disguise/forged documents to cross a border if it is particularly strategic area and you have an Alliance rank other than Civilian.
- getting responses from NPC guards that they are keeping an eye on you if you enter as a known citizen of another Alliance.
- having a fittingly different set of outcomes/options for a quest or two depending on whether it is your home Alliance.

For more involved mechanics, you might need to use a disguise to access certain areas within a zone/talk to certain NPCs if you are an enemy soldier, or perhaps buy (for gold or a quest completion) protection and access from an underworld type or a corrupt official, but I am not suggesting more involved mechanics are necessary.

Maybe it's just me, but, I think these things not only make sense but sound fun and a little flavor/customization to the experience.

AshTal · October 2015

I agree very strongly with the original post.

To send enemy soldiers into other lands must have a story reason. Why are we not trying to kill the king of the orcs or turn him on the other members of the DC.

The very first chat with the orc ambassador gives me no clue why as a loyal solider of the pact I would go to Orcinium. The smaller clans may die, great is my answer. There is no offer of gold or power or rank or land, I just get to go and help out of the goodness of my heart.

This is the very same argument I had with Cadwell Gold and Silver. So far what I have seen the Orc story makes no sense. Add to this the even bigger point that if I am to believe the Orcs that DC soldiers can not go to Orcinium the one faction who actually have a reason to go then Orcinium should be in pact or dominion hands hours after we get the call to go.

Please try to explain why members of the other factions go, give us IC reasons and give us choices when we are there that would make sense for members of the other factions.

Sentinel · October 2015

It would be interesting if they made the guards in orsinium racially prejudiced. If you are a dc race they give the regular snarky comments, but if you're any other race including imperials they say warnings and possibly offensive comments, etc things to keep an enemy from getting any ideas.

If you're a DC race in another alliance, they'll probably see you as no different, but then they could add in some misc dialogue for kurog himself for the warning

Enodoc · October 2015

Officially:

King Kurog's accord with High King Emeric grants Wrothgar the status of an independent kingdom, and in return, Kurog supplies the alliance with troops and protects the northern borders from enemy incursions. While Kurog has decreed that alliance soldiers are not welcome in Wrothgar, he has sent out an invitation to heroes and adventurers from all across Tamriel to help him rebuild the Orcish homeland. In effect, Wrothgar is a "truce zone." All are welcome, but agents of the Alliance War will not be tolerated here.

And don't forget what the Ambassador says when you first meet her:

If you have a letter from the Forge-Mother, then you've come to the right place. Just be aware, this isn't official Daggerfall business. Wrothgar is open to anyone who genuinely wants to help us build the city of Orsinium. Or so I've been told.

If you have a letter from the Forge-Mother, then you've come to the right place. And we don't even care that you're one of those Khajiit-loving, Bosmer-liking, preening like a High Elf, card-carrying member of the Aldmeri Dominion. No offense.

If you have a letter from the Forge-Mother, then you've come to the right place. And we don't even care that you're one of those Nord-loving, lizard-liking, preening like a Dark Elf, card-carrying member of the Ebonheart Pact. No offense.

So lore-wise, Dominion, Pact and Covenant soldiers will not be invited to Wrothgar, and will not be allowed in, but adventurers from those territories are fine. This is another instance of you wearing "different hats" in terms of your role in the world, and the game telling you which hat you're wearing this time. Today, you're not a Captain of the Pact army, you're an Adventurer who happens to be from Pact territory. You may also be Jorunn's Champion (ie, you finished the Alliance Story) or Hero of Coldharbour (ie, you finished the Main Quest); but in either case, due to Stirk, you're considered friendly to all the leaders anyway.

AshTal · October 2015

I would like it if they gave us a reason for going other than the one I got "Come here because its the only lv 16 mobs you can fight which don't involve getting ganked every 10 minutes".

They could have made everything so much better
Cadwell Silver / Gold sent to the other alliances as an agent of your own faction Daggers, Eyes or Tong
Sent to Orcinium with very tiny adjustments for each faction. Or at least promise me gold and power not just send me because I am a big hearted idiot who wants to help orc children.

It really wouldn't take that much.

tinythinker · October 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

So lore-wise, Dominion, Pact and Covenant soldiers will not be invited to Wrothgar, and will not be allowed in, but adventurers from those territories are fine. This is another instance of you wearing "different hats" in terms of your role in the world, and the game telling you which hat you're wearing this time. Today, you're not a Captain of the Pact army, you're an Adventurer who happens to be from Pact territory. You may also be Jorunn's Champion (ie, you finished the Alliance Story) or Hero of Coldharbour (ie, you finished the Main Quest); but in either case, due to Stirk, you're considered friendly to all the leaders anyway.

Yet many player characters *are* Pact and Dominion soldiers, and your quoted materials make the inconsistency I noted even clearer. The "different hat" argument basically says "just ignore the blaring inconsistency" rather than offering a solution, or as I wrote in the OP, "Maybe no one else cares about this illogic. I get it. Just explore and have fun. But it's kind of immersion-breaking for some of us. "

As I wrote in other comments above, it would have been easy to put a little something in about "You are here as an adventurer, not a soldier", with a warning about spying or other hostile activity, for those with an Alliance rank above Civilian. Maybe some NPCs like guards making comments about staying in line.

Or even simpler than all of that, just this simple unavoidable exchange once you reach the city of Orsinium:

**********************************************************************************************
An Orcish Covenant Officer runs up to you and initiates the following dialogue...

For AD/EP players:
Covenant Orc Officer: "Say, your face looks familiar, aren't you a soldier for the Dominion/Pact?"
Player Character: "Yes." or "No." Both get the following response...
Covenant Orc Officer: "Oh, naw, of course you aren't. I remember now, I killed that cowardly dog! Hahahaha!"

For DC players:
Covenant Orc Officer: "Say, your face looks familiar, aren't you a soldier for the Covenant?"
Player Character: "Yes."
Covenant Orc Officer: "Of course you are, people like us are why the Covenant will win the war."

Covenant Orc Officer: "Say, your face looks familiar, aren't you a soldier for the Covenant?"
Player Character: "No."
Covenant Orc Officer: "Too bad, we could use more people like you."
**********************************************************************************************

Note that with this really simple bit of dialogue you use typical Elder Scrolls humor to acknowledge and get past the inconsistency. So what you think @Enodoc, would you object to or maybe even like to see this brief encounter added in at some point?

And, of course, mostly I've been writing about ways to avoid such inconsistencies and make exploration more fun/immersive/customized for future DLC that involves territories controlled by an Alliance. The mechanics described in those comments would not take lots of extra work for the player, would add something to recognize the efforts the player has put in as part of the Alliance War, and would offer a plausible reason how and why one might be able to operate behind enemy lines. It can only make the stories/zones better, and again, doesn't have to require much in the way of extra effort by either devs or players.

tinythinker · October 2015

AshTal wrote: »

I would like it if they gave us a reason for going other than the one I got "Come here because its the only lv 16 mobs you can fight which don't involve getting ganked every 10 minutes".

They could have made everything so much better
Cadwell Silver / Gold sent to the other alliances as an agent of your own faction Daggers, Eyes or Tong
Sent to Orcinium with very tiny adjustments for each faction. Or at least promise me gold and power not just send me because I am a big hearted idiot who wants to help orc children.

It really wouldn't take that much.

Cadwell's Silver and Gold are OK. They give an excuse for why you aren't recognized (disguised by the power of a god) and a reason for doing it (to gain the perspective needed for even greater threats than Molag Bal's planemeld). Trying to do those zones as a known operative of your home alliance is very problematic and would take a ton of work, as I mentioned in this comment from July...

tinythinker wrote: »

Not sure why some people are so bothered by the basic premise that silver/gold allows you to see things from another point of view to get beyond the divisions that threaten Tamriel. Not only would it be a huge undertaking to rewrite/record the dialogue to be a spy, it still makes no sense because in each Alliance you end up being the reason it doesn't fall apart. In each case the faction would fall without you.
So you end up saving Ayrenn, the Silvenar/Green Lady, and making sure there is a new Mane (you even see what would happen had you not been there to set things right, with the Pact and Covenant invading the Dominion). Not the best outcome if you are just a spy or saboteur for EP/DC. Same for the other two.

Hammerfell would have been out of the war after being overrun by undead, the Orcs would have betrayed Emeric and marched on Wayrest, and the rest of High Rock would have been conquered by Reachman and Imperials. But you stopped all of that, AD/EP double agent.

And of course, the DC plant managed to foil the Convenant conquest of Stonefalls, the AD sneak managed to foil the Dominion invasion of Shadowfen, and then both manage to save the life of the Skald King so that the Pact could be formally united at Skuldafn.
I am all for making gold/silver more rewarding/relevant/meaningful, but that's a dead end.

Enodoc · October 2015

tinythinker wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

So lore-wise, Dominion, Pact and Covenant soldiers will not be invited to Wrothgar, and will not be allowed in, but adventurers from those territories are fine. This is another instance of you wearing "different hats" in terms of your role in the world, and the game telling you which hat you're wearing this time. Today, you're not a Captain of the Pact army, you're an Adventurer who happens to be from Pact territory. You may also be Jorunn's Champion (ie, you finished the Alliance Story) or Hero of Coldharbour (ie, you finished the Main Quest); but in either case, due to Stirk, you're considered friendly to all the leaders anyway.

Yet many player characters *are* Pact and Dominion soldiers, and your quoted materials make the inconsistency I noted even clearer. The "different hat" argument basically says "just ignore the blaring inconsistency" rather than offering a solution, or as I wrote in the OP, "Maybe no one else cares about this illogic. I get it. Just explore and have fun. But it's kind of immersion-breaking for some of us. "

As I wrote in other comments above, it would have been easy to put a little something in about "You are here as an adventurer, not a soldier", with a warning about spying or other hostile activity, for those with an Alliance rank above Civilian. Maybe some NPCs like guards making comments about staying in line.

Or even simpler than all of that, just this simple unavoidable exchange once you reach the city of Orsinium:

**********************************************************************************************
An Orcish Covenant Officer runs up to you and initiates the following dialogue...

For AD/EP players:
Covenant Orc Officer: "Say, your face looks familiar, aren't you a soldier for the Dominion/Pact?"
Player Character: "Yes." or "No." Both get the following response...
Covenant Orc Officer: "Oh, naw, of course you aren't. I remember now, I killed that cowardly dog! Hahahaha!"

For DC players:
Covenant Orc Officer: "Say, your face looks familiar, aren't you a soldier for the Covenant?"
Player Character: "Yes."
Covenant Orc Officer: "Of course you are, people like us are why the Covenant will win the war."

Covenant Orc Officer: "Say, your face looks familiar, aren't you a soldier for the Covenant?"
Player Character: "No."
Covenant Orc Officer: "Too bad, we could use more people like you."
**********************************************************************************************

Note that with this really simple bit of dialogue you use typical Elder Scrolls humor to acknowledge and get past the inconsistency. So what you think @Enodoc, would you object to or maybe even like to see this brief encounter added in at some point?

And, of course, mostly I've been writing about ways to avoid such inconsistencies and make exploration more fun/immersive/customized for future DLC that involves territories controlled by an Alliance. The mechanics described in those comments would not take lots of extra work for the player, would add something to recognize the efforts the player has put in as part of the Alliance War, and would offer a plausible reason how and why one might be able to operate behind enemy lines. It can only make the stories/zones better, and again, doesn't have to require much in the way of extra effort by either devs or players.

Sure, that would work. I wouldn't be opposed to anything being introduced that would result in getting around the issue. By that same card, it would be great if there was something similar for Coldharbour as well, in which it is specifically stated that any "soldier" you may come across is there to help the guilds (since the leaders said they wouldn't be sending any soldiers).