Plea for change of stance regarding exploit disclosure

daemonios · March 2015

Today I've seen two discussions being taken down for discussing an ongoing exploit. I'm not criticizing the takedown - I believe it's the correct response under the current ToS of the forums however, I *would* like to suggest that exploit disclosures be allowed in the future.

Forbidding the disclosure of exploits is a kind of "security through obscurity". The underlying issue is *not* fixed in any way by limiting the discussion. In addition, ZOS has no control over other places where the exploits may be disclosed, which renders the policy of taking these posts down on the official forums partially moot.

I propose that ZOS allow bugs and exploits to be freely disclosed. This is the responsible thing to do, since it requires ZOS to address the issues with the necessary urgency instead of sweeping them under the rug. However, this transparency should be accompanied by a harder stance against exploiters. If a player is found to be using a know or unknown exploit, they should receive a detailed warning for their first offence, a temp ban for a second offence, and possibly a permanent ban for repeat offences of the same exploit.

What does the community think?

Psychobunni · March 2015

I propose that ZOS accept grinders and build something around that, so the community stops arguing over exploit vs cheating, exploit vs bug, players on high horses telling others how to play, etc, etc, etc.

Some players will never stop looking for the quickest, most efficient way to get from point A to B, no matter how many posts we see complaining about it. Accept it, build on it, heck..make money off it. The sooner ZOS finds a way to encompass all play styles, the sooner we stop having these dumb arguments every other day.

yodased · March 2015

I think that threads talking about threads that were taken down for talking about exploits will be closed and summarily deleted with prejudice and you are wasting your time asking them to be more upfront with how they deal with exploiters.

We have empirical evidence of players straight up cheating and they give 0 ***.

daemonios · March 2015

yodased wrote: »

I think that threads talking about threads that were taken down for talking about exploits will be closed and summarily deleted with prejudice and you are wasting your time asking them to be more upfront with how they deal with exploiters.

We have empirical evidence of players straight up cheating and they give 0 ***.

I'm not talking about those threads, I'm talking about the policy. In fact, I stated I find nothing wrong with the takedowns given the current rules. I believe it doesn't violate the forum rules to discuss the rules themselves, only to challenge mods' decisions.

ZOS_AlanG · March 2015

Discussion of exploits is removed from public view to prevent this information from spreading. However, that doesn't mean that such discussion is then ignored, we take any reports of exploits very seriously.

The best way to report an exploit on the forums is to PM a staff member, not to make a public post about it. The /report function in-game is another good way to get this information to us.

Bug discussion, separate from exploits, is not removed. This information is unlikely to have negative in-game impact if many people are aware of it, and sometimes it's helpful to have such information public.

Emma_Overload · March 2015

yodased wrote: »

I think that threads talking about threads that were taken down for talking about exploits will be closed and summarily deleted with prejudice and you are wasting your time asking them to be more upfront with how they deal with exploiters.

We have empirical evidence of players straight up cheating and they give 0 ***.

What exploiters? I have yet to see a thread posted today that mentions any actual "exploits", by any reasonable definition of the word.

daemonios · March 2015

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Discussion of exploits is removed from public view to prevent this information from spreading.

I understand that's your current view. But you are aware that exploits are often published on YouTube, reddit and other sites, including ESO-specific third-party websites, right?

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

WOW, I was just in thread that got closed down before my comment was even posted... and it wasn't even about a real exploit!

If it was taken down, that's clearly a sign that someone considers it an exploit. So please don't post the mechanic here, I'd like this thread to be an actual discussion on the rules, not another taken-down thread on a specific exploit.

Rook_Master · March 2015

yodased wrote: »

I think that threads talking about threads that were taken down for talking about exploits will be closed and summarily deleted with prejudice and you are wasting your time asking them to be more upfront with how they deal with exploiters.

We have empirical evidence of players straight up cheating and they give 0 ***.

So much this.

P3ZZL3 · March 2015

Honestly, I have no idea how on earth this could get past any half decent tester.

I mean, granted, I know I'm assuming they DO test this content before release, but surely any tester worth their salt is going to go "Ok, how the hell will this ruddy community abuse this patch....." and then write a check list and test it....

And if they DID raise it, one can only assume management who look after the sign off on Go-Live content changes, signed off on it....

*scratches head somewhat confudled*

Meanwhile...back on topic (Apologies OP) I do agree with you in practical terms. Once the exploit is found, the minute it's posted here and removed, every-ones senses are heightened to it and it immediately goes into Reddit. I don't think there is any real benefit to having them publicly exposed on the forums as all it does is cause additional problems for ZoS.

That being said, it's not ness. a bad thing. I mean, this will clearly be fixed much quicker than some other areas of the game.

Keron · March 2015

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Discussion of exploits is removed from public view to prevent this information from spreading. However, that doesn't mean that such discussion is then ignored, we take any reports of exploits very seriously.

The best way to report an exploit on the forums is to PM a staff member, not to make a public post about it. The /report function in-game is another good way to get this information to us.

Bug discussion, separate from exploits, is not removed. This information is unlikely to have negative in-game impact if many people are aware of it, and sometimes it's helpful to have such information public.

The problem with this stance is:

Players encountering exploiters and then coming here are not made aware that these exploits are already "under investigation".
Players who have reported exploits don't have any information in regards to the proceedings.
I have never seen an information on the official conclusion as to what is considered an exploit and what is considered "creative but allowed use of game mechanics".
Players never get confirmation that these exploits are fixed (not even in patch notes, mostly).

As such, this stance creates a feeling of distrust, which is something you should already be aware of. Just read the Alliance War forums, the majority of outspoken, regular posters don't trust Zenimax at all in regards to acting on and fixing exploits and outright cheats.

In conjunction with the policy to ban people because they violate your forum rules simply out of desperation to be heard, the stance does make players NOT CARE about the health of the game. It is by no means a difficult conclusion to make that your current strategy in the end furthers and amplifies abuse of exploitable issues.

It is no wonder that most other online games do take a different stance on exploiting/cheating. If an exploit is discovered, it is not uncommon to describe the exploitable procedure without detailing the exact steps on how to do it, together with a clear statement that abusers will be temporarily or even permanently banned from the game.

I understand that this requires the game company to create and maintain a dispute procedure to allow appeal to banning, but again, formalizing that makes it probably less work than what you have right now - without the formalized and automated process.

The plea that OP is voicing here is a valid one, and one that should be taken seriously by "the management".

I understand the "naming & shaming" rule, but having a publicly visible exploit database (without a how-to, of course) and a clear stand on abusers with obvious display of caught & banned players (name & shame only those who deserve it) will give players some confidence on your actions and will, in the end, result in less people trying to violate the naming & shaming rule.

pmn100b16_ESO · March 2015

ZoS raises xp gain from trial mobs by 1000%. Players grind trash mobs in Hel Ra for quick cp gain.

Who would have thunked

Suru · March 2015

ZoS is only at fault for not seeing what HRC was gonna be, it was an oversight. But they were in the right to nerf it because people were 2 manning a 12 person, albeit the first trash pull for 50k a pull in 4 minutes, unenlightened. If you dont think thats wrong then idk man.

P3ZZL3 · March 2015

Back to the lack of testing imo.

Obscure · March 2015

daemonios wrote: »

What does the community think?

I think I'll continue to share my actual opinion in places ZOS cannot take action to remove it from discussion due to our violating their forum Code of Conduct.

Their house, their rules.

...but it's kinda like saying "don't use profanity in the house, but you are free to say whatever you'd like literally as soon as you are outside the door, at any volume you desire to say it at, even if everyone in the house can still hear you."

ZOS: "You can't spread exploits and malicious conspiracy!"

Me: *goes to YouTube where people are spreading exploits and malicious conspiracy*

P3ZZL3 · March 2015

@Obscure Unless it's nice things. We can post nice things about them

Suru · March 2015

Obscure wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

What does the community think?

I think I'll continue to share my actual opinion in places ZOS cannot take action to remove it from discussion due to our violating their forum Code of Conduct.

Their house, their rules.

...but it's kinda like saying "don't use profanity in the house, but you are free to say whatever you'd like literally as soon as you are outside the door, at any volume you desire to say it at, even if everyone in the house can still hear you."

ZOS: "You can't spread exploits and malicious conspiracy!"

Me: *goes to YouTube where people are spreading exploits and malicious conspiracy*

If they sat back and were just deleting threads without action then that would be an issue, they instead did something and will figure out a work around.

Obscure · March 2015

Suru wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

What does the community think?

I think I'll continue to share my actual opinion in places ZOS cannot take action to remove it from discussion due to our violating their forum Code of Conduct.

Their house, their rules.

...but it's kinda like saying "don't use profanity in the house, but you are free to say whatever you'd like literally as soon as you are outside the door, at any volume you desire to say it at, even if everyone in the house can still hear you."

ZOS: "You can't spread exploits and malicious conspiracy!"

Me: *goes to YouTube where people are spreading exploits and malicious conspiracy*

If they sat back and were just deleting threads without action then that would be an issue, they instead did something and will figure out a work around.

Issue #1: QA is not catching it first. ZOS is perpetually Reactive instead of Proactive.
Issue #2: Exploitation spreads regardless of forum moderation taking action. I respect their stance, but it is none the less ineffective at thwarting the spread of exploitation. If my solution to you having a cold is "don't talk about it" it can and will continue to spread regardless of that action.
Issue #3: Prioritizing fixing exploits conflicts with prioritizing literally everything else ZOS is in crunch time to complete. There's no secret the console build has been delayed for over a year, they are certainly focusing every resource they can afford to focus on getting that done. I'm not unreasonable in my expectations that ZOS simply cannot afford to put priority on exploits. It's telling them there's a rodent infestation in the basement while they're trying to deal with a house fire. They ignore the fire, the whole house goes, the rodents suck, but it's just going to have to wait.

BlackEar · March 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

WOW, I was just in thread that got closed down before my comment was even posted... and it wasn't even about a real exploit!

It was just about a guy reporting that you could get nice XP by farming the trash mobs in Trials.... how is that an exploit, considering that the XP boost was ALREADY ANNOUNCED IN THE OFFICIAL PATCH NOTES????

Because it was unintended and hotfixed to solve the issue.

Obscure · March 2015

umagon wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Discussion of exploits is removed from public view to prevent this information from spreading. However, that doesn't mean that such discussion is then ignored, we take any reports of exploits very seriously.

The best way to report an exploit on the forums is to PM a staff member, not to make a public post about it. The /report function in-game is another good way to get this information to us.

Bug discussion, separate from exploits, is not removed. This information is unlikely to have negative in-game impact if many people are aware of it, and sometimes it's helpful to have such information public.

The biggest problem is you never take action against exploiters. How many were banned for using nirnhoned, bugged r-destruction, the "new" thing with metors, the bugged fear that drops players through the map, the list goes on. Yet I see these same people every day. It's very obvious money is the only thing zos cares about, and if someone cheats it's fine if they are paying.

They don't ban these exploiters largely for the same reason the exploit exists to begin with:

...I have a meme addiction... I should seek help...

HeroOfNone · March 2015

If I'm correct, you can discuss exploits here on the forums, but you can not discuss how to do them nor can you discuss who did them. Example:

I notice that someone was exploiting an ability bug on throneblade @ Arrius keep on 9pm EST last night, please stop doing this, you're ring the game for others. Other folks that participated please don't enable this person.

This gives specifics without explaining the details on how or who.

Personally I can agree that the how should be censored to keep folks from doing it over and over again, but the who should not. Coming out and saying who did an exploit allows the acused a stage to face their accusers, rather than have it circulate in the back waters of the rumor mill. It also gives proper highlight on when someone is found exploiting and who commonly give false reports. Thus is all important meta data to players to improve the community.

YourNameHere · March 2015

daemonios wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Discussion of exploits is removed from public view to prevent this information from spreading.

I understand that's your current view. But you are aware that exploits are often published on YouTube, reddit and other sites, including ESO-specific third-party websites, right?

ZoS doesn't own YouTube, reddit, or other sites. They own THIS forums. And if their rules on THIS forum are no exploits can be shared etc, then it is their right to remove them.

You signed the EULA/ToS to post here, so have to go by their rules. Pretty much it.

daemonios · March 2015

YourNameHere wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Discussion of exploits is removed from public view to prevent this information from spreading.

I understand that's your current view. But you are aware that exploits are often published on YouTube, reddit and other sites, including ESO-specific third-party websites, right?

ZoS doesn't own YouTube, reddit, or other sites. They own THIS forums. And if their rules on THIS forum are no exploits can be shared etc, then it is their right to remove them.

You signed the EULA/ToS to post here, so have to go by their rules. Pretty much it.

Erm... I already KNOW that much, thanks. My post is about proposing a change to the rule, for the reasons I stated. I don't see what your post contributes to that discussion.

crowfl56 · March 2015

Just wake up folks, most of us have been playing these game's for years and years.

What happens in every and I mean every game ?

You have folks that find the fastest way to gain an advantage (in game) so they can gain an advantage over others in said game.

Really the only way to stop this is, be strict with any type of punishment.

So if you are caught cheating (exploits) even if you don't feel you were cheating, tough, ban them.

Start with maybe a 24 hour ban for 1st timer, anything after that you're done and out of the game forever.

Simple, and really you aren't hurting the player base, because the majority of the peeps in any game, play within the rules.

Have fun and quit trying to find the fastest way out of a game.

Prizax · March 2015

@WhiskyBob don't remember if it was you the one who made the stupid thread about the CP grind at HRC but whoever made the post "I told you to delete it" because of this and to be honest it's not an exploit at all...

ZOS_GaryA · March 2015

Hey there folks,

We understand that exploits can be a rather hot topic. That said, this thread has become heated and we've had to remove several comments. While we appreciate your concerns on the topic, we ask that the discussion remains constructive.

Our policy on reporting exploits is available in the Code of Conduct for the game, which is located here. At present there are no plans to change this policy, but we are open to hearing your thoughts on the matter. As such, the thread will remain open, but we're going to sink it to keep the discussion from becoming too volatile. We appreciate your understanding and your feedback.

Emma_Overload · March 2015

umagon wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Discussion of exploits is removed from public view to prevent this information from spreading. However, that doesn't mean that such discussion is then ignored, we take any reports of exploits very seriously.

The best way to report an exploit on the forums is to PM a staff member, not to make a public post about it. The /report function in-game is another good way to get this information to us.

Bug discussion, separate from exploits, is not removed. This information is unlikely to have negative in-game impact if many people are aware of it, and sometimes it's helpful to have such information public.

The biggest problem is you never take action against exploiters. How many were banned for using nirnhoned, bugged r-destruction, the "new" thing with metors, the bugged fear that drops players through the map, the list goes on. Yet I see these same people every day. It's very obvious money is the only thing zos cares about, and if someone cheats it's fine if they are paying.

Except for the "bugged fear that drops players through the map", which is clearly an exploit if it exists, none of those things you listed are real exploits. Those are just saavy players making the most of mechanics that were poorly designed or implemented. Are players who invested TENS of THOUSANDS of gold for Nirnhoned weapons supposed to stop using them because some PvPers started whining about how OP they were? No, that's ridiculous. Calling those players exploiters or cheaters is just shifting the blame for shoddy development or game design to the wrong party.

vovus69 · March 2015

All of this is game mechanics. People are not using any bugs - this mechanics was made on purpose by zos, so it was their intention. How to use this mechanics - this is up to each player individually. If decision was stupid, it should be rolled back. The same with bugs. If there is a bug somewhere and zos knows it - roll back to previous version and fix the bug, if this bug is critical. if it is not critical, you can continue going on with it, but this is internal decision and zos will take care of all the consequences. It works like that in any organization. This is IT management 101.

HeroOfNone · March 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Discussion of exploits is removed from public view to prevent this information from spreading. However, that doesn't mean that such discussion is then ignored, we take any reports of exploits very seriously.

The best way to report an exploit on the forums is to PM a staff member, not to make a public post about it. The /report function in-game is another good way to get this information to us.

Bug discussion, separate from exploits, is not removed. This information is unlikely to have negative in-game impact if many people are aware of it, and sometimes it's helpful to have such information public.

The biggest problem is you never take action against exploiters. How many were banned for using nirnhoned, bugged r-destruction, the "new" thing with metors, the bugged fear that drops players through the map, the list goes on. Yet I see these same people every day. It's very obvious money is the only thing zos cares about, and if someone cheats it's fine if they are paying.

Except for the "bugged fear that drops players through the map", which is clearly an exploit if it exists, none of those things you listed are real exploits. Those are just saavy players making the most of mechanics that were poorly designed or implemented. Are players who invested TENS of THOUSANDS of gold for Nirnhoned weapons supposed to stop using them because some PvPers started whining about how OP they were? No, that's ridiculous. Calling those players exploiters or cheaters is just shifting the blame for shoddy development or game design to the wrong party.

Part of that is interesting, when is it an exploit and when is it an overpowered mechanic.

Take a look at snipe in 1.5. Folks complained how it was hitting for so much, how it was a snipers paradise, etc. But I don't recall ZOS ever coming out and saying that the shots were hitting for too much or that the mechanics with being able to stealth after making several shots was ever something unintentional that was on their lost of things to fix. They eventually came in and balanced it with the rest.

The Nirnhoned bug ignoring spell resistance and armor however I heard mentioned several times on the forums. They were actively working to fix it because it was unintentional that it bypassed armor.

I may be biased to using the bows I didn't view using snipe as bring OP, but the nirnhoned, given how folks knew it wasn't working as intended, were indeed exploiting. There is grey area in there as well, as with anyone that has ever cheese a boss in a dungeon, but the issue changes when you're using that game defeat in a player verses player realm.

Jitterbug · April 2015

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

@Obscure Unless it's nice things. We can post nice things about them

I think it's nice how they are so patient with exploiters...

Like that?