Sense of hopelessness/punishing diversity: Why CP will kill ESO.

Phinix1

In pretty much every other MMO, developers realize the importance of reward and the PSYCHOLOGY OF HOPE. Perhaps they call it something different in the industry but basically, it is the idea that at any given point, regardless of your play style, there is a CHANCE for you to catch up at another play style, if you begin to apply yourself to it.

For example in ANY other MMO, you might be into PVP, RP, farming, questing, addon development, whatever. You may be months behind the raid or competitive PVP "scene", but in any other MMO that is OK because IF you decide to START applying yourself and dedicate a REASONABLE amount of time at it, there is a perception and fact that you can catch up.

A person with no raid gear can join a guild and get reasonably geared within a month or so, non-arena players can run battlegrounds for a few weeks and get geared enough to compete for "real" gear, etc.

This creates an atmosphere of diversity, where you don't perceive you are being punished for pretty much everything other than one mindless grind play style, which is what ESO was billed on. Yet ESO's counter-intuitive grind does the exact opposite. It absolutely KILLS diversity of play style!

In ESO unless you mindlessly grind 24/7 you will NEVER catch up because everything is behind a LINEAR TIME WALL. This means that if you enjoy RP, exploration, questing, PVP, or pretty much any sane behavior other than mindlessly grinding, and you later decide to apply yourself to some serious "end-game", there is absolutely no hope you will catch up in a reasonable time because the time it takes to catch up is linear, meaning you can't just join a good group and get geared, you MUST mindlessly grind grind grind.

There is NO chance (for a non-grinder) to be competitive in PVP against players who already have 700+ CP that can:

• Roll-dodge literally forever thanks to maxed Tumbler trait.
• Have impenetrable damage bubbles thanks to maxed Bastion trait.
• Wrecking Blow for 30k (more than my HP) thanks to maxed Mighty trait.
• Etc., etc., etc.

I have never seen a system that is so unfriendly to diversity of playstyle as ESO CP.

As an addon developer, I often I am wasting my time as all I get for my efforts to improve the lives of other gamers is months behind because I didn't spend that time grinding in cracked troll cave. In other games I at least felt like I had the luxury of devoting time to addon development without destroying my chance to be competitive in PVP or end-game.

This is total BS.

There needs to be some catch-up method for CP (no, giving the grinders XP potions does NOT solve anything), and a tiered limit to CP gain in a given expansion to slow down the no-lifers constantly chasing an unfair advantage in the name of "progress". ZOS needs to realize these are a MINORITY of players (most have classes, jobs, etc. and can't grind 24/7), bite the bullet and stop catering to them at the expense of your larger audience.

Heromofo

Or the exp potions are the start leading to cp Potions and letting them clean up on the doe.

Phinix1

Heromofo wrote: »

Or the exp potions are the start leading to cp Potions and letting them clean up on the doe.

The day they do this is the day I leave ESO for good, and boycott any future ZOS title until the end of time.

Phinix1

How does this belong in "Combat and Character Mechanics?"

AlnilamE

First of all, I just had a look of some of you addons and I want to thank you for making them. I am going to add them to my game when I'm on next.

I really don't know how to take the feeling of hopelessness. While I don't spend a lot on endgame right now, I am working on improving but I am still earning CP naturally as I go through the game and I don't feel that I'm terribly disadvantaged by it. If I wanted to put some effort into getting CP, I could find a grind spot or two, but that is not really my style.

As the mathematical joke goes, after a certain amount of CP, you will be close enough for all practical purposes, so it doesn't really matter how many CP someone has that spent the last few months grinding. I spent the last few months having fun and becoming a better player in the process (which is still ongoing).

That's how I look at it.

Estelee

You can be 100% effective in raids and other endgame content without going absolutely overboard, I didn't have any other characters to give me CP, and I do raids, VDSA and all sorts of other content seamlessly, I also almost always occupy the top 50-30 players in w/e pvp campaign I am in with only moderate pvp player ( I usually play maybe 3-4 hours every other day in pvp, sometimes more depending on week. )

The fact is that there are always going to be casual gamers, and gamers who are obsessed with being on top. The system in place allows you to do all the content and be competent in PvP, WHILE offering those more hardcore players something greater to strive for.

Endless progression systems are good because they always give one more thing to go for, which keeps people coming back and opens up and allows multiple playstyles and trial and error.

Why should people who grind be penalized for other people's lack of ability//want to play? What's the difference from that and giving someone who works at Taco Bell, and a Doctor the same pay? ( aside from the fact one is a game and the other is real life, but I'm arguing principles at the moment. )


DC Templar, 172 CP, 23rd place in Azura's Star PVP.

Phinix1

There is still a reasonable chance to be carried in raids (though not if you want to make the leaderboards).

However, there is NO chance to be competitive in PVP against players who already have 700+ CP that can:

• Roll-dodge literally forever thanks to maxed Tumbler trait.
• Have impenetrable damage bubbles thanks to maxed Bastion trait.
• Wrecking Blow for 30k (more than my HP) thanks to maxed Mighty trait.
• Etc., etc., etc.

mattgbrowneub17_ESO

Just think in the time it took to write another ridiculous post whining about XP drinks, you could've farmed roe, recipe pieces or CP XP the old fashioned way.

Nobody is getting anything for free with this system. It's unreasonable to expect to get the same benefits out of something as someone who has invested more time, thought, energy and money than you. The straw man argument of but new players can't catch up is invalid. Obviously they can't catch up, they came a year late.

driosketch

I'm going to leave this comment from a dev on the last Reddit AUA for consideration.

http://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/39gv5r/the_elder_scroll_online_tamriel_unlimited_team/cs3awsr

We are aware of balance concerns from players with more champion points. As Phil mentioned the system was designed to help keep players closer in power level with diminishing returns and enlightenment bonus XP. In the future we can implement catchup mechanics so the first 400 champion ranks require less experience, helping get new players catch up.
In terms of XP, we're actually buffing for some areas in the next major update. Specifically public dungeons and craglorn are being increased. Additionally we're increasing the XP that veteran level quests give so there's more of a parity between gains between questers and grinders. Lastly we're reducing the amount of XP required to get a veteran rank so players can get to the max level content sooner. - ZOS_Eric

Phinix1

mattgbrowneub17_ESO wrote: »

Just think in the time it took to write another ridiculous post whining about XP drinks, you could've farmed roe, recipe pieces or CP XP the old fashioned way.

Nobody is getting anything for free with this system. It's unreasonable to expect to get the same benefits out of something as someone who has invested more time, thought, energy and money than you. The straw man argument of but new players can't catch up is invalid. Obviously they can't catch up, they came a year late.

It is like you didn't actually read anything I just posted. Or, if you did, the concept of a linear time wall being bad for play style diversity went completely over your head.

The fact remains, it is a recipe for disaster, as virtually every other MMO understands, and has catch-up methods in place to address.

Estelee

Your point? They worked for that sh*t, Getting that much CP is the same as leveling nearly 30 Characters to Max level.
You should not be rewarded just because some people are putting in more effort than you. ZOS deals with any XP exploit that comes along and the grind spots that are left are very moderate.

There is always gonna be someone who spends all their time grinding.
There is always gonna be someone who spends all their time grinding.
There is always gonna be someone who spends all their time grinding.
There is always gonna be someone who spends all their time grinding.
ALWAYS

Phinix1

Estelee wrote: »

Your point? They worked for that sh*t, Getting that much CP is the same as leveling nearly 30 Characters to Max level.
You should not be rewarded just because some people are putting in more effort than you. ZOS deals with any XP exploit that comes along and the grind spots that are left are very moderate.

There is always gonna be someone who spends all their time grinding.

No, YOU miss the point.

A healthy MMO thrives on a sense of community and fair play. This isn't about some mindless grinding no lifer spending 24/7 to gain an unfair advantage "deserving it."

This is about a badly designed system that alienates the vast majority of players and fails to provide ANY system for NEW PLAYERS or people CHANGING PLAYSTYLE to do so in a fair and competitive way.

Stop defending your unfair advantage, which I admit must be nice, and recognize the FACTS.

Or don't. But the facts remain, regardless.

eliisra

mattgbrowneub17_ESO wrote: »

Just think in the time it took to write another ridiculous post whining about XP drinks, you could've farmed roe, recipe pieces or CP XP the old fashioned way.

Nobody is getting anything for free with this system. It's unreasonable to expect to get the same benefits out of something as someone who has invested more time, thought, energy and money than you. The straw man argument of but new players can't catch up is invalid. Obviously they can't catch up, they came a year late.

You dont get it, do you? The issue is that a player like myself that plays a lot, but enjoys doing actual content over braindead grinding, gets heavily punished by this system. Every day I'm falling more and more behind in CP, because I prefer dungeons, daily quests, trials, working on achievements, crafting and loads of PvP over killing the same goblins over and over in a cave.

When CP first came out I was maybe 10-30 points behind no-lifers grinding NPC's. Now I'm 100-300 points behind the same guys. Next check up I'm going to be 1000 points behind or more, thanks to exp potions. But not because I'm some semi-inactive casual player, not because I'm poor (I have many millions banked), neglect my characters or suck. It's because I'm playing the game as intended lol.

Germal

yeah pvp on consoles is already broken thanks to transfers from PC, and that 1 week after launch

Kobaal

Your using words like fair and competitive in a game where they will ban you from the forums if you name or post evidence in these forums of someone exploiting or cheating....

Good luck!

Soris

Estelee wrote: »

Your point? They worked for that sh*t, Getting that much CP is the same as leveling nearly 30 Characters to Max level.

Uhh looks like grinders already lost some braincells in that goblin cave.
Why would anyone do that seriously? No one forcing you to do that. Why would people who play the game as intended penalised for your braindead grind?

Estelee

Soris wrote: »

Estelee wrote: »

Your point? They worked for that sh*t, Getting that much CP is the same as leveling nearly 30 Characters to Max level.

Uhh looks like grinders already lost some brain cells in that goblin cave.
Why would anyone do that seriously? No one forcing you to do that. Why would people who play the game as intended penalised for your braindead grind?

I'm not a grinder ( You'd know, if you read my first post. ), I just don't have problem with people who do.

Here's my point. CP is strong, but I take down plenty of grinders in pvp. Im just saying the amount of people who grind their brains out is so small, and miniscule, that you are overworked about something that's not as big of a deal. People who play longer and harder will always be bigger and badder. Please tell me one game where this is not true. Games like Wow? Where everything was so watered down it was pathetic? Forreal guys chillout.

On XP potions :: The average drop rate of roe is so small that it's already been tested that it's quicker to just go ahead and grind rather than work to get pots and grind.


@Soris Why should people who play the game the way they want, be penalized for people who are also just doing the same. I think you forget in the end people do what they want. If they grind it's because they enjoy it, their brand of fun is not less important than yours. Do what you want, but don't shout at others for doing the same. Please. That's my entire point. ( Unless it's to hack and exploit, then nono to that. )

XP Potions not OP.
Grinders OP, but they earned it.
RPers//Explorers, not OP, but doing what they chose to do.
Wanting something just because other people do things you don't want too? Weak.

Once again, not a grinder. 173 CP, only two VR toons, been playing since open beta.

P.S Game as intended?

Estelee

Also what goblin gave? I need to level my NB, he's still only V7

Soris

Yeah game as intended. Like taking a castle in Cyrodiil without breaking any wall by DKs leaping inside to an "enemy" player. That's not intended. Intended is like PvPing or PvEing whatever you like in a legit way. And I don't think grinders grind 10 hours in a day just because they enjoy grinding. I don't care actually maybe they like it.
The thing is that creates major gap between them and others. Others that play the game in normal way as its intended, not casuals at all. Like you, me or the people in Cyrodiil, trials etc. And there is NO WAY to acquire that much of CP gained by grinding WITHOUT GRINDING. XP potions will just create a bigger gap. You see the problem here? It is indeed exploting game mechanics.

Alp2760

This isn't a new thing. Any game where you work towards building something leaves players having to play catch up.

Fifa ultimate team? New players won't have as good players and won't ever be able to amass the same amount of coins earned by playing matches or catch up with those who grind out tournament after tournament.

DCUO? Good luck trying to get anywhere near the skill points of people who have played for 1, 2 or 3 years.

If you are enjoying playing the game, which it sounds like you are then carry on doing your thing. It seems like it's only pvp that is affecting you and meh, there will always be higher ranked or over powered or exploiters who make pvp in literally any game frustrating. They are generally fee and far between though and you should surely be able to play without being one spotted constantly? BTW - I'm not saying people who have grinded are at all in the category of exploiters, just pointing out that there is always someone who will ruin you, regardless of whether the method is legit or not.

I've not long started playing and doubt I will do much pvp, purely because outside of fifa, which I know inside out, I find I just can't compete with people and pvp is always very meh to me. No issue for me though, I'm happy playing the game in the way I enjoy it. Some people will literally only pvp and will be so good, you can probably have all the points you like but they will know the game to a level where they will still win most of the time.

So ye, carry on having fun doing your Crafting and dungeons etc mate rather than spending time being concerned about being competitive.

Alp2760

And FYI, I'm on a grinder in the slightest. I point blank refused to grind sp on dc and despite being behind, held my own. Saying that though, for some reason I really enjoy grinding Crafting mats on this. It's strangely relaxing and I can pop in some earphones, set a play list and spend a few hours running around looking for glowing plants without wanting to jump off a bridge =p

Estelee

I agree 1000% with @Alp2760 Nothing to be done except enjoy the game. :]

Gabriel_Froste

BUT... BUT!

"\_(OAO)_/"

---

You walk into a tavern after a long hard day, of the constant grind. The harrowing near-death experiences, and the death experiences... and the constant armor repairing. It all seems hopeless, and like there is no point to it. With a sigh, you grab a seat near the counter and apply your forehead to the mahogany with a loud thud.

"Come... drink away your sorrows with me." An Old man says, his flesh is withered and his skin is dark... he smells of rot. Upon closer inspection, you realize that he is naught but a Draugr Warlord sitting in a tavern. His helmet bound to his head, he drinks the liquid with great difficulty. Then removes another from one of his many bags and slides it across the counter towards you. "My name is Therus Arderius... just know that your generation has it easy..." He says and rises from his chair, and makes way to the door. He stops before he opens it. "There is still hope." He says, his voice is a gravely whisper and he then opens the door and exits the tavern, disappearing into the blizzard that lay just yonder.

You then turn your gaze to the drink he handed you, and from it resonated great vigor, a smell of sweet fruit that cannot be described. This is no ordinary drink... it gives you a feeling that you can learn how to do anything... it may not be hopeless after all.

Emma_Overload

I respect the OP's opinion, but I think the solution is to making grinding more fun and rewarding for everybody, not to punish the grinders for accumulating CP.

FriedEggSandwich

I pvp for a few hours every day, I chase my enlightenment and earn around 1.5 cp per day. I have about 180cp, which is nothing, but I have never felt behind, or the need to catch up. There are very few players with anywhere near 700cp and if I knew of one I wouldn't be worried by them cos I would know that they don't actually pvp very much so are probably not much of a threat. Maybe I'm just naiive. If you're that concerned by it though then take heart cos changes will come. Read the recent sticky post on upcoming pvp changes.

RazzPitazz

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I pvp for a few hours every day, I chase my enlightenment and earn around 1.5 cp per day. I have about 180cp, which is nothing, but I have never felt behind, or the need to catch up. There are very few players with anywhere near 700cp and if I knew of one I wouldn't be worried by them cos I would know that they don't actually pvp very much so are probably not much of a threat. Maybe I'm just naiive. If you're that concerned by it though then take heart cos changes will come. Read the recent sticky post on upcoming pvp changes.

Where is this sticky? I have searched for it but have not found it.

Phinix1

Gabriel_Froste wrote: »

BUT... BUT!

"\_(OAO)_/"

---

You walk into a tavern after a long hard day, of the constant grind. The harrowing near-death experiences, and the death experiences... and the constant armor repairing. It all seems hopeless, and like there is no point to it. With a sigh, you grab a seat near the counter and apply your forehead to the mahogany with a loud thud.

"Come... drink away your sorrows with me." An Old man says, his flesh is withered and his skin is dark... he smells of rot. Upon closer inspection, you realize that he is naught but a Draugr Warlord sitting in a tavern. His helmet bound to his head, he drinks the liquid with great difficulty. Then removes another from one of his many bags and slides it across the counter towards you. "My name is Therus Arderius... just know that your generation has it easy..." He says and rises from his chair, and makes way to the door. He stops before he opens it. "There is still hope." He says, his voice is a gravely whisper and he then opens the door and exits the tavern, disappearing into the blizzard that lay just yonder.

You then turn your gaze to the drink he handed you, and from it resonated great vigor, a smell of sweet fruit that cannot be described. This is no ordinary drink... it gives you a feeling that you can learn how to do anything... it may not be hopeless after all.

I love you man. No, seriously.

Hexyl

They said in reddit, they will make the first 400 champion point more easy to get.

and i think after 1080 champion point there is non very huge difference.

And leave it either way, when they put this C.S on live, they said it is just the first part of it. So it's sure this will change it in the futur

CaptainObvious

Pretty sure the intent is that the champion system needs to have enough runway to accommodate xp gain as eventual content is released. People are complaining since they expect every goal to be obtainable/surmountable now now now.

The rationale behind this is to provide a way for players to continually advance and have something to do so they don't go somewhere else. Tunnelvision on players is what is creating the psychological stress. Gotta catch 'em all right?

The next wave of complaints to be generated is that the new content areas will be p2w because they provide much better experience than any of the free content areas. I expect this to come in xp, skill point, and equipment forms. This being a balance of expecting people to pay for content that gives them 0 competitive advantage versus content that gives them one.

Question is, will items from the new areas be bound to encourage players to pay for the new content instead of generating deeper and deeper ruts in the v10 areas and cyrodiil?

Dru1076

They can quickly and easily overcome most of this by making PVP campaigns that are designated by champion point rank. I'm not even going to think about PVP until I have a fair playing field. Before the cp system, I had hope of getting off the siege engine and onto the front lines.

How much will new players enjoy coming up against a group of level 30's with 2000 cp in the non-vet campaign? This could happen in the near future, and I sure hope there's a plan in place to deal with this.

Kraeius

Chill out. That's a MMO, game mechanics change frequently.