Animation cancelling is killing PVP, especially for Oceanics

Trikki

Zenimax, try playing PVP with a 250+ ping and dying before you can even react. This has to be fixed, many people are ragequitting as they're unable to even compete.

Damage in general in PVP is way too high, add latency to that and most CC=death as break free takes so long to respond and damage numbers are so high.

Please fix this before its too late. I don't want Cyro to be a ghost town in our prime. Its not happening yet, but I can see the frustration building in my guild every night so its just a matter of time.

Johngo0036

I have a 290+ ping,
This is an issue, MAJOR issue,

I have been killed many times because of this,

Radiant Destruction and there sometimes not being a visual is what kills me more..

Dont even know i am being hit by radiant destruction.

AssaultLemming

Yep there's some ganker *** with a bow who consistently lands a heavy attack, a venom arrow and a snipe all at the exact same time, no chance to react. It's not fun when you can't even see the attack coming and you just die.

What animation canceling does someone have to do to land that combo? He claims he isn't using a macro. Can someone explain it to me please?

bowmanz607

AssaultLemming wrote: »

Yep there's some ganker *** with a bow who consistently lands a heavy attack, a venom arrow and a snipe all at the exact same time, no chance to react. It's not fun when you can't even see the attack coming and you just die.

What animation canceling does someone have to do to land that combo? He claims he isn't using a macro. Can someone explain it to me please?

the air time in snipe allows you to load a heavy attack and then use poison arrow to release the heavy attack. no macro i use it all the time. it all depends on the travel time with snipe

Ffastyl

bowmanz607 wrote: »

AssaultLemming wrote: »

Yep there's some ganker *** with a bow who consistently lands a heavy attack, a venom arrow and a snipe all at the exact same time, no chance to react. It's not fun when you can't even see the attack coming and you just die.

What animation canceling does someone have to do to land that combo? He claims he isn't using a macro. Can someone explain it to me please?

the air time in snipe allows you to load a heavy attack and then use poison arrow to release the heavy attack. no macro i use it all the time. it all depends on the travel time with snipe

You need to get considerable distance from your target for this to work. I use a Snipe > Light Attack > Poison Arrow weave at close to max distance for Poison Arrow; the travel time on Snipe makes it land last despite being fired first, but all three arrows land almost simultaneously.

Snit

If you remove animation cancelling, combat becomes clunky and unresponsive. Animations either break other animations, or you get the situation where you push buttons and nothing happens. People hate that.

bowmanz607

[/quote]

the air time in snipe allows you to load a heavy attack and then use poison arrow to release the heavy attack. no macro i use it all the time. it all depends on the travel time with snipe[/quote]

You need to get considerable distance from your target for this to work. I use a Snipe > Light Attack > Poison Arrow weave at close to max distance for Poison Arrow; the travel time on Snipe makes it land last despite being fired first, but all three arrows land almost simultaneously.[/quote]

i agree but i can usually get a partial heavy attack and poison arrow before it hits. you just need to watch/ understand when your arrow will hit.

DeanTheCat

Animation Cancelling isn't really an issue as long as you understand the mechanics behind it, and I say this even with my average ping of round 400 (I live in Singapore). Thing is, even without Animation Canceling, you are still going to die before you can react with such a high ping, as even if people can't weave in Light attacks, that 10k damage Surprise Attack is still going to tear through your health, even if you have the best ping in the world. However, damage of certain instant cast skills still work even if you have an insanely high latency. For example, during the many meteor showers that happen on EU-TB, I can spam keep spamming Surprise Attack, on 5 different people, to have seemingly nothing happen, but suddenly 15 seconds later, I get 5 Killing Blows at the same time according to my Kill Counter.

Every action that you take in ESO has a priority. From the lowest to highest priority:
1) Light/Heavy Attack
2) Abilities
3) Ultimates
4) Block
5) Bash/Interrupt

An action of a lower priority can be animation canceled by an action of a higher priority, though they must still respect the GCD (Global Cooldown) between each attack cycle. That means in a single GCD attack cycle, I can get off 1 light attack, 1 Ability, 1 Ultimate and 1 Bash. This is in addition to the fact that for some skills (Gap closers mainly), the GCD of the skill triggers as soon as you press the button, rather when the skill actually connects.

For example, I can cast Ambush from 27m away (Thanks to Reach II passive), and while the 1 second long Teleportation animation is playing, I press Surprise Attack. As the GCD of Ambush begins as soon as I press the button (It still has a 0.5 second cast time, no matter what the tooltip likes to state) and the GCD of all skills is 1.3 seconds, both abilities go off seemingly at the same time. That's round 15-18k Instant Damage off the bat. I then follow up with a light attack on the enemies now fractured armor (What Ambush does is that it teleports you first, then inflicts the damage with a 0.2 sec delay, so there is that window where you are still considered "In sneak" behind the target, so the Surprise Attack gets it's "From Stealth" bonus effect) then I cancel that light attack animation with an another Surprise Attack, which in turn is canceled by Flawless Dawnbreaker. As as result, the follow up burst after the initial combo from sneak has another 15k-20k damage, thereby resulting in an "Instant Kill" from stealth.

Still, the best advice I can really give for high ping players (Like me) is to develop a sort of sixth sense to incoming attacks. This means always staying on your guard, always expecting an attack and listen out for sound cues. The music of ESO changes whenever an enemy has you locked on or has initiated an attack that hasn't actually connected yet. This is your cue to start taking defensive actions against such an attack. One good defensive action a high ping player can utilize is dodgeroll, as the check for dodgeroll takes place clientside, rather then serverside. Which means if lets say someone targets a Snipe at you, you can still dodge it successfully even with high ping as the check to see if you actually get hit by that snipe is client-based, rather then server-based. Also, use and abuse stealth mechanics, as the less time you spend visible, the less chance you have of getting a snipe in your back.

rb2001

Animation cancelling is one of the most annoying bugs to have in a game I know of.

Milky

Animation cancelling ups the skill level of the game. I'd rather play with it than without it. I play with 250+ ping in USA California, I animation cancel, and people animation cancel against me. I don't see what the issue is.

Kloud

Animation canceling is easy to do and it's not a bug alot of games you can do it leauge of legends for example it's a mechanic of the game separates good players from bad

cozmon3c_ESO

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Animation Cancelling isn't really an issue as long as you understand the mechanics behind it, and I say this even with my average ping of round 400 (I live in Singapore). Thing is, even without Animation Canceling, you are still going to die before you can react with such a high ping, as even if people can't weave in Light attacks, that 10k damage Surprise Attack is still going to tear through your health, even if you have the best ping in the world. However, damage of certain instant cast skills still work even if you have an insanely high latency. For example, during the many meteor showers that happen on EU-TB, I can spam keep spamming Surprise Attack, on 5 different people, to have seemingly nothing happen, but suddenly 15 seconds later, I get 5 Killing Blows at the same time according to my Kill Counter.

Every action that you take in ESO has a priority. From the lowest to highest priority:
1) Light/Heavy Attack
2) Abilities
3) Ultimates
4) Block
5) Bash/Interrupt

An action of a lower priority can be animation canceled by an action of a higher priority, though they must still respect the GCD (Global Cooldown) between each attack cycle. That means in a single GCD attack cycle, I can get off 1 light attack, 1 Ability, 1 Ultimate and 1 Bash. This is in addition to the fact that for some skills (Gap closers mainly), the GCD of the skill triggers as soon as you press the button, rather when the skill actually connects.

For example, I can cast Ambush from 27m away (Thanks to Reach II passive), and while the 1 second long Teleportation animation is playing, I press Surprise Attack. As the GCD of Ambush begins as soon as I press the button (It still has a 0.5 second cast time, no matter what the tooltip likes to state) and the GCD of all skills is 1.3 seconds, both abilities go off seemingly at the same time. That's round 15-18k Instant Damage off the bat. I then follow up with a light attack on the enemies now fractured armor (What Ambush does is that it teleports you first, then inflicts the damage with a 0.2 sec delay, so there is that window where you are still considered "In sneak" behind the target, so the Surprise Attack gets it's "From Stealth" bonus effect) then I cancel that light attack animation with an another Surprise Attack, which in turn is canceled by Flawless Dawnbreaker. As as result, the follow up burst after the initial combo from sneak has another 15k-20k damage, thereby resulting in an "Instant Kill" from stealth.

Still, the best advice I can really give for high ping players (Like me) is to develop a sort of sixth sense to incoming attacks. This means always staying on your guard, always expecting an attack and listen out for sound cues. The music of ESO changes whenever an enemy has you locked on or has initiated an attack that hasn't actually connected yet. This is your cue to start taking defensive actions against such an attack. One good defensive action a high ping player can utilize is dodgeroll, as the check for dodgeroll takes place clientside, rather then serverside. Which means if lets say someone targets a Snipe at you, you can still dodge it successfully even with high ping as the check to see if you actually get hit by that snipe is client-based, rather then server-based. Also, use and abuse stealth mechanics, as the less time you spend visible, the less chance you have of getting a snipe in your back.

zos needs to fix this opener from stealth, so dumb that the class that can turn invisible on a whim can combine so many abilitys at once for instant death and the target will never see it coming.

DeanTheCat

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Animation Cancelling isn't really an issue as long as you understand the mechanics behind it, and I say this even with my average ping of round 400 (I live in Singapore). Thing is, even without Animation Canceling, you are still going to die before you can react with such a high ping, as even if people can't weave in Light attacks, that 10k damage Surprise Attack is still going to tear through your health, even if you have the best ping in the world. However, damage of certain instant cast skills still work even if you have an insanely high latency. For example, during the many meteor showers that happen on EU-TB, I can spam keep spamming Surprise Attack, on 5 different people, to have seemingly nothing happen, but suddenly 15 seconds later, I get 5 Killing Blows at the same time according to my Kill Counter.

Every action that you take in ESO has a priority. From the lowest to highest priority:
1) Light/Heavy Attack
2) Abilities
3) Ultimates
4) Block
5) Bash/Interrupt

An action of a lower priority can be animation canceled by an action of a higher priority, though they must still respect the GCD (Global Cooldown) between each attack cycle. That means in a single GCD attack cycle, I can get off 1 light attack, 1 Ability, 1 Ultimate and 1 Bash. This is in addition to the fact that for some skills (Gap closers mainly), the GCD of the skill triggers as soon as you press the button, rather when the skill actually connects.

For example, I can cast Ambush from 27m away (Thanks to Reach II passive), and while the 1 second long Teleportation animation is playing, I press Surprise Attack. As the GCD of Ambush begins as soon as I press the button (It still has a 0.5 second cast time, no matter what the tooltip likes to state) and the GCD of all skills is 1.3 seconds, both abilities go off seemingly at the same time. That's round 15-18k Instant Damage off the bat. I then follow up with a light attack on the enemies now fractured armor (What Ambush does is that it teleports you first, then inflicts the damage with a 0.2 sec delay, so there is that window where you are still considered "In sneak" behind the target, so the Surprise Attack gets it's "From Stealth" bonus effect) then I cancel that light attack animation with an another Surprise Attack, which in turn is canceled by Flawless Dawnbreaker. As as result, the follow up burst after the initial combo from sneak has another 15k-20k damage, thereby resulting in an "Instant Kill" from stealth.

Still, the best advice I can really give for high ping players (Like me) is to develop a sort of sixth sense to incoming attacks. This means always staying on your guard, always expecting an attack and listen out for sound cues. The music of ESO changes whenever an enemy has you locked on or has initiated an attack that hasn't actually connected yet. This is your cue to start taking defensive actions against such an attack. One good defensive action a high ping player can utilize is dodgeroll, as the check for dodgeroll takes place clientside, rather then serverside. Which means if lets say someone targets a Snipe at you, you can still dodge it successfully even with high ping as the check to see if you actually get hit by that snipe is client-based, rather then server-based. Also, use and abuse stealth mechanics, as the less time you spend visible, the less chance you have of getting a snipe in your back.

zos needs to fix this opener from stealth, so dumb that the class that can turn invisible on a whim can combine so many abilitys at once for instant death and the target will never see it coming.

Eh, this is just one of the Nightblade versions. There is 2 or 3 instakill combinations for every class, it's all about smart use of the tools and mechanics available to you. It just happens that this particular version is slightly faster then the other versions.

Also, even if the target can't see you, they still can hear you. It's very possible to track down sneaking players via sound and Raident Magelight alone. And yes, if you are not using Radient Magelight, don't complain when someone instagibs you from sneak. You opted not to use the hardest counter there is to stealthier characters in Cyrodiil.

Nexus66

No class or spec should give you ability in ANY MMO to insta/kill/gib player in PVP .. thats just wrong on many levels.. and
kills any incentive in average pvp player to even enter PVP zone.. which in long term hurts PVP .
I would rather have "clunky" combat that last for longer period of time than to die in 2 sec or kill someone in same period of time.And i sincierly doubt that ZOS is ok with this animation cancelling.... or whatever its called .. or mybe im just to naive ...

DeanTheCat

Nexus66 wrote: »

No class or spec should give you ability in ANY MMO to insta/kill/gib player in PVP .. thats just wrong on many levels.. and
kills any incentive in average pvp player to even enter PVP zone.. which in long term hurts PVP .
I would rather have "clunky" combat that last for longer period of time than to die in 2 sec or kill someone in same period of time.And i sincierly doubt that ZOS is ok with this animation cancelling.... or whatever its called .. or mybe im just to naive ...

ZoS endorses Animation Cancelling, actually. There was an official statement last year, and since then all of the best players have learnt to do it to some degree of proficiency. Also, "Instagib" damage is just a symptom of another bigger problem, which is Infinite Resources. Due to infinite resources, things that are meant not to be spammed by design (Which is why they are so powerful in the first place) become broken OP. Dodgeroll, Wards, Permablocking etc. As a result, in an actual duel between two equally skilled players usually either ends in 3 seconds because one player got instakilled, or forever, due to defensive options being so strong, that anything less then "Instagib" level damage is simply negated.

At the highest levels of ESO PvP (Small Scale/Solo), builds usually fall into 2 types. Max Damage, or Max regen. The ends of the spectrum, if you would like to call it that. Each justifies their existence by the existence of it's polar opposite. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight. You bring a even bigger gun. Without that kind of damage being flung around, you'll never make it past the active defences of players. On the other side of the coin, without that strength of the active defences, you'll never survive that damage being flung at you. Pick your poison, really.

eliisra

Nexus66 wrote: »

No class or spec should give you ability in ANY MMO to insta/kill/gib player in PVP .. thats just wrong on many levels.. and
kills any incentive in average pvp player to even enter PVP zone.. which in long term hurts PVP .
I would rather have "clunky" combat that last for longer period of time than to die in 2 sec or kill someone in same period of time.And i sincierly doubt that ZOS is ok with this animation cancelling.... or whatever its called .. or mybe im just to naive ...

For sure. MMORPG''s aren't skill based enough to legitimise insta-kill mechanics in PvP. Also why it's rare to see and adjusted or toned down eventually. In fps and similar, there's usually skill required to kill someone in one go. It's action based on a completely different level. You have to aim a moving target, you need quick reactions when attacking, steady hand, get that head shot or back stab or what ever.

In MMORGS you only need to point your little mouse cursor and hit a key or macro, when attacking enemies. Most MMO's also have a tab target function or old school clickable name plates, making it even more ridiculous with instagib.

Only time I ever encounter this in actual MMO's is when checking out trashy f2p/p2w games. People spend a fortune to win and maul down enemies in a sliver of a second. Than there's ESO, respectable game. Why I also feel it's unintended. More about bad design/coding that allows us to rack up 3-4 attacks in less than a second, while the targets defensive moves are so delayed they cant even break free before dead.

ItsRejectz

Unless cooldowns are added to skills animation cancelling will be here forever, so deal with it.
DCUO had the exact same issue and because the devs couldn't prevent it unless they added cooldowns, they instead embraced animation canceling. Offten releasing demos of combos you could animation cancel and so on.

So yeah, it's here to stay, deal with it.

Milky

If they put in cooldowns I will stop playing. Having no cooldowns and having to manage your resources is what makes the game interesting for me. It makes build crafting more diverse.

There are currently a few bugged or overpowered abilities that are almost mandatory, that's why you see so many of the same builds. But with some more balance changes, having no cooldowns is better for the game. Unless we want it to turn into every other cookie cutter MMO.

Sensesfail13

I think cooldowns do need to be introduced, not in a wait 15 seconds to use a skill category but make it so your other skills cannot be used until the animation is finished and take the animations away from some skills and add a longer cooldown to others (like purge) making them unspammable. That way some skills dont have animations and thus will not have a cooldown but others will have animations of say 2.0 seconds and you have to wait that 2 seconds before you can use that skill again. It doesnt take away from the build diversity and skill usage it actually makes it better and more dynamic by not having a zerg run around with 3 people spamming purge and 5 prox det spamming and 3 healing and 4 spamming steel tornado repeatedly.
Some people will get mad but they are more than likely the cheaters using this print screen bug to kill people with 80k dmg in .3 seconds. Or the zergers that run around roflstomping actual pvpers with 40 sheeple spamming one button. Anybody that is against this and for animation canceling which ultimately allows this type of skill-less play should just quit anyhow, you ruin the game.

DeanTheCat

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

I think cooldowns do need to be introduced, not in a wait 15 seconds to use a skill category but make it so your other skills cannot be used until the animation is finished and take the animations away from some skills and add a longer cooldown to others (like purge) making them unspammable. That way some skills dont have animations and thus will not have a cooldown but others will have animations of say 2.0 seconds and you have to wait that 2 seconds before you can use that skill again. It doesnt take away from the build diversity and skill usage it actually makes it better and more dynamic by not having a zerg run around with 3 people spamming purge and 5 prox det spamming and 3 healing and 4 spamming steel tornado repeatedly.
Some people will get mad but they are more than likely the cheaters using this print screen bug to kill people with 80k dmg in .3 seconds. Or the zergers that run around roflstomping actual pvpers with 40 sheeple spamming one button. Anybody that is against this and for animation canceling which ultimately allows this type of skill-less play should just quit anyhow, you ruin the game.

If you want cooldowns added to the game, you also need to add in true unbreakable CC. Let's face it. Most of the CC in the game is nothing more then a stam drain rather then an actual CC. The combat system in ESO is built around being able to use the same skill over and over (Limited slots on bar, abilities combining CC+Damage+DoT etc). Spam is part and parcel of the combat in ESO.

Also, I assure you, without being able to fire off abilities rapidly, small groups will become worthless at stopping a larger force, unless unbreakable CC is given to the small group to counteract the numbers advantage of the larger group. AoE Mez, anyone? (Also, please rework Agony FFS).

Snit

I empathize with those who suffer bad pings. I played EQ1 for a few years from Sydney, on dialup. But I can't see ZOS reworking animation priorities, which are core to how combat responds to player input.

It's a fairly good, skill-based addition to combat. Weaving should stay.

cjthibs

Sure it's skill-based...but it's also exploitable.

Sensesfail13

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

I think cooldowns do need to be introduced, not in a wait 15 seconds to use a skill category but make it so your other skills cannot be used until the animation is finished and take the animations away from some skills and add a longer cooldown to others (like purge) making them unspammable. That way some skills dont have animations and thus will not have a cooldown but others will have animations of say 2.0 seconds and you have to wait that 2 seconds before you can use that skill again. It doesnt take away from the build diversity and skill usage it actually makes it better and more dynamic by not having a zerg run around with 3 people spamming purge and 5 prox det spamming and 3 healing and 4 spamming steel tornado repeatedly.
Some people will get mad but they are more than likely the cheaters using this print screen bug to kill people with 80k dmg in .3 seconds. Or the zergers that run around roflstomping actual pvpers with 40 sheeple spamming one button. Anybody that is against this and for animation canceling which ultimately allows this type of skill-less play should just quit anyhow, you ruin the game.

If you want cooldowns added to the game, you also need to add in true unbreakable CC. Let's face it. Most of the CC in the game is nothing more then a stam drain rather then an actual CC. The combat system in ESO is built around being able to use the same skill over and over (Limited slots on bar, abilities combining CC+Damage+DoT etc). Spam is part and parcel of the combat in ESO.

Also, I assure you, without being able to fire off abilities rapidly, small groups will become worthless at stopping a larger force, unless unbreakable CC is given to the small group to counteract the numbers advantage of the larger group. AoE Mez, anyone? (Also, please rework Agony FFS).

Exactly why I said some skills should and some skills should not have cooldowns. .05 seconds on a cooldown is still technically a spammable skill but it allows for people to react to a situation rather than have the print screen exploit used where you take 40k dmg in .05 seconds. And I would be alright with a longer timer on cc and abilities to have side effects like snare or dizzinees or stun etc etc. that all sounds fine to me, however, the main problem is really this exploit that people can put out massive amounts of damage in half of a second while it appears they are doing nothing to you. Meanwhile doing that much damage bypasses any mitigation you may have and ruins to dynamic of pvp as well as the entertainment of pvp making people quit the game, and Ive seen a fair share quit because of these problems... if you cant tell from the dwindling population throughout the game.

RinaldoGandolphi

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

zos needs to fix this opener from stealth, so dumb that the class that can turn invisible on a whim can combine so many abilitys at once for instant death and the target will never see it coming.

Since you switched to stamina bud have you tried Spiked Bone Sheild? It costs stamina, but you can stack it with Hardened Ward and its good against physical damage, it also returns 33% of melee attack damage back into the person's face much like the Templar's Blazing Shield....most nightblades have low HP...they can really hurt themselves with their own Wrecking Blows...lol. It can be a very effective sheild and the synergy from it will give your teammates a huge shield.

Joy_Division

A lot of these problems will be lessened signficantly if ZoS does something productive concerning the Time-to-Kill and the ridiculous resource regeneration we have. In Backwater Blade, you can animation cancel till the cows come home, but I will not be instakilled and can actually fight back against an attacker who strings together these combos.

s7732425ub17_ESO

DeanTheCat wrote: »

One good defensive action a high ping player can utilize is dodgeroll, as the check for dodgeroll takes place clientside, rather then serverside. Which means if lets say someone targets a Snipe at you, you can still dodge it successfully even with high ping as the check to see if you actually get hit by that snipe is client-based, rather then server-based. Also, use and abuse stealth mechanics, as the less time you spend visible, the less chance you have of getting a snipe in your back.

It doesn't make sense for the dodgeroll check to be clientside. Everything should be serverside.

DeanTheCat

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

One good defensive action a high ping player can utilize is dodgeroll, as the check for dodgeroll takes place clientside, rather then serverside. Which means if lets say someone targets a Snipe at you, you can still dodge it successfully even with high ping as the check to see if you actually get hit by that snipe is client-based, rather then server-based. Also, use and abuse stealth mechanics, as the less time you spend visible, the less chance you have of getting a snipe in your back.

It doesn't make sense for the dodgeroll check to be clientside. Everything should be serverside.

If you put that check server side, you can say goodbye to any hope of high ping players playing effectively. Latency and lag is the reason why it's client side, same with movement. It's also the reason why Sorcs can fly with bolt escape when it's lagging to oblivion.

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

I think cooldowns do need to be introduced, not in a wait 15 seconds to use a skill category but make it so your other skills cannot be used until the animation is finished and take the animations away from some skills and add a longer cooldown to others (like purge) making them unspammable. That way some skills dont have animations and thus will not have a cooldown but others will have animations of say 2.0 seconds and you have to wait that 2 seconds before you can use that skill again. It doesnt take away from the build diversity and skill usage it actually makes it better and more dynamic by not having a zerg run around with 3 people spamming purge and 5 prox det spamming and 3 healing and 4 spamming steel tornado repeatedly.
Some people will get mad but they are more than likely the cheaters using this print screen bug to kill people with 80k dmg in .3 seconds. Or the zergers that run around roflstomping actual pvpers with 40 sheeple spamming one button. Anybody that is against this and for animation canceling which ultimately allows this type of skill-less play should just quit anyhow, you ruin the game.

If you want cooldowns added to the game, you also need to add in true unbreakable CC. Let's face it. Most of the CC in the game is nothing more then a stam drain rather then an actual CC. The combat system in ESO is built around being able to use the same skill over and over (Limited slots on bar, abilities combining CC+Damage+DoT etc). Spam is part and parcel of the combat in ESO.

Also, I assure you, without being able to fire off abilities rapidly, small groups will become worthless at stopping a larger force, unless unbreakable CC is given to the small group to counteract the numbers advantage of the larger group. AoE Mez, anyone? (Also, please rework Agony FFS).

Exactly why I said some skills should and some skills should not have cooldowns. .05 seconds on a cooldown is still technically a spammable skill but it allows for people to react to a situation rather than have the print screen exploit used where you take 40k dmg in .05 seconds. And I would be alright with a longer timer on cc and abilities to have side effects like snare or dizzinees or stun etc etc. that all sounds fine to me, however, the main problem is really this exploit that people can put out massive amounts of damage in half of a second while it appears they are doing nothing to you. Meanwhile doing that much damage bypasses any mitigation you may have and ruins to dynamic of pvp as well as the entertainment of pvp making people quit the game, and Ive seen a fair share quit because of these problems... if you cant tell from the dwindling population throughout the game.

There already is a cooldown, believe it or not. The cooldown is 1.3 seconds. Also, I don't see how the print screen exploit has anything to do with animation cancelling. That is an exploit, while animation cancelling is endorsed by ZoS and therefore legal gameplay. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

In addition, due to in-built latency tolerances for high ping players, the server in a way "Rewinds time" to account for latency. This is the reason why most abilities have front-loaded damage rather then back-loaded. This sometimes results in spamming a skill during lagfests, then when the lag is over, suddenly getting multiple kills, even though you have already stopped spamming said ability. If you remove these latency tolerances, anyone without <100 ping can't compete anymore.

Trikki

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Also, even if the target can't see you, they still can hear you. It's very possible to track down sneaking players via sound and Raident Magelight alone. And yes, if you are not using Radient Magelight, don't complain when someone instagibs you from sneak.

I've read through a few of your posts and while some of it is interesting and even factual, some of your examples and arguments are extremely flawed. I'm not going to pick apart everything you say but I would like to talk to a couple of points you made...

Using Radiant Magelight means that you're using up 20% of your abilities just for the ability not to be 1 shot in PVP. The toggled abilities that are required on both bars is a highly flawed design and the fact you need it to survive at all on some builds just makes it even more flawed.

People can't compete with 200+ ping period without a large amount of guesswork/luck and even with your points about sound etc it will save you on very few occasions. Your 1.3s cooldown information while may be technically correct is not practical either in high ping situations, it changes the way everything works quite profoundly.

All you've really done is put together a bunch of workarounds or excuses for a flawed system. The netcode and/or ability priorties for ESO is/are complete rubbish and needs an overhaul.

I've played many MMO's over the years and ESO is by far the worst right now when it comes to the Time-To-Kill, skill design and network performance combination. If ZoS want to admit the game is only for low ping and the rest can go shove it, that's fine we can move on knowing their target market but when you advertise and sell a game to a community or area of the world its expected that they should have a reasonable chance of equality regardless of the connection speed. Most MMO's are able to do that, ESO sadly not.

DeanTheCat

Trikki wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Also, even if the target can't see you, they still can hear you. It's very possible to track down sneaking players via sound and Raident Magelight alone. And yes, if you are not using Radient Magelight, don't complain when someone instagibs you from sneak.

I've read through a few of your posts and while some of it is interesting and even factual, some of your examples and arguments are extremely flawed. I'm not going to pick apart everything you say but I would like to talk to a couple of points you made...

Using Radiant Magelight means that you're using up 20% of your abilities just for the ability not to be 1 shot in PVP. The toggled abilities that are required on both bars is a highly flawed design and the fact you need it to survive at all on some builds just makes it even more flawed.

People can't compete with 200+ ping period without a large amount of guesswork/luck and even with your points about sound etc it will save you on very few occasions. Your 1.3s cooldown information while may be technically correct is not practical either in high ping situations, it changes the way everything works quite profoundly.

All you've really done is put together a bunch of workarounds or excuses for a flawed system. The netcode and/or ability priorties for ESO is/are complete rubbish and needs an overhaul.

I've played many MMO's over the years and ESO is by far the worst right now when it comes to the Time-To-Kill, skill design and network performance combination. If ZoS want to admit the game is only for low ping and the rest can go shove it, that's fine we can move on knowing their target market but when you advertise and sell a game to a community or area of the world its expected that they should have a reasonable chance of equality regardless of the connection speed. Most MMO's are able to do that, ESO sadly not.

Look, you seem to be under the impression that I have a low ping to begin with. I don't. I live in Singapore while playing on the EU server. My pings are around 400 on average. If you don't believe me, feel free to ask any member of Arena guild on the EU Megaserver. I'm rather famous round those parts (May I recommend talking to Legendary Mage, Master Kas, Alakamir, Hyssia, Azorahai) as a sucessful stam NB that has been playing stam builds since beta.

Radient Magelight is very powerful, and I'm willing to pay 20% of my slots to hard counter all the gankers out there in Cyrodiil, even though I myself am a stealth based build. It saves you AND your allies in a 10m radius around you. What you see as a burden, I call it taking one for the team.

Humans are creatures of habit by nature, which means that if someone does something once, he/she is likely to do it over and over again. This fact, along with the fact that 90% of Cyrodiil are using copy-and-paste builds from YouTube or other similar websites, means that predicting an enemies actions and movements is incredibly simple. Usually after sitting in sneak for a few minutes observing the battlefield, I can predict with a 90% accuracy on what that player in question is going to do next in the next 20 seconds. It's like playing a game of chess. You watch your opponent, find a weakness in his play, and exploit the weakness to win. My posts speak from experience dealing with the most overpowered builds back when stam NB was crap (Beta and 1.0). I don't expect to be able to win every player out there, but I'm doing a very good job at beating 95% of players even when outnumbered.

Sorry if I come across as rude, but I just want to make sure my message gets across.

Trikki

Not rude at all mate, a good discussion is a good discussion

Still, your arguments basically involve you solo ganking people on the edge of a battlefield already engaged, an ideal situation for any ganker - particularly a NB stam build. I have one too and its easy mode, NB's are so OP right now its ridiculous if they are geared correctly and get the stealth jump on you its basically game over unless you're crap (high ping or not).

So you're a stamina NB ganker, playing Bow spec that has Radiant Magelight up on both bars? I find that hard to believe and I'd say its a complete waste if that's the case. With NB's so prevalent at the moment, getting hit for 8-12k+ Lethal Arrow+Heavy Attack, Poison Inj non-stealthed shots (which makes Magelight useless) is not uncommon. Dual wield/2H attacks are just as bad with Ambush, HA, SA, LA, Dark Cloak, SA (or Killer's Blade) basically insta-death. There is no time to react. Put someone into the Morag's/Hawk's full sets with Shadow Walker, lots of CP's etc max weapon damage and you have people 1-2 shotting emperors. I have a guildmate that does it every day, took him right to Emp himself.

Yours is a very narrow scenario compared to the larger metas and average player in game (and an OP NB one at that) which makes your argument pretty narrow too.

DeanTheCat

Trikki wrote: »

Not rude at all mate, a good discussion is a good discussion

Still, your arguments basically involve you solo ganking people on the edge of a battlefield already engaged, an ideal situation for any ganker - particularly a NB stam build. I have one too and its easy mode, NB's are so OP right now its ridiculous if they are geared correctly and get the stealth jump on you its basically game over unless you're crap (high ping or not).

So you're a stamina NB ganker, playing Bow spec that has Radiant Magelight up on both bars? I find that hard to believe and I'd say its a complete waste if that's the case. With NB's so prevalent at the moment, getting hit for 8-12k+ Lethal Arrow+Heavy Attack, Poison Inj non-stealthed shots (which makes Magelight useless) is not uncommon. Dual wield/2H attacks are just as bad with Ambush, HA, SA, LA, Dark Cloak, SA (or Killer's Blade) basically insta-death. There is no time to react. Put someone into the Morag's/Hawk's full sets with Shadow Walker, lots of CP's etc max weapon damage and you have people 1-2 shotting emperors. I have a guildmate that does it every day, took him right to Emp himself.

Yours is a very narrow scenario compared to the larger metas and average player in game (and an OP NB one at that) which makes your argument pretty narrow too.

Well, to correct some assumptions, I don't use a bow. Not since the first week of 1.6. I use Dual Wield + 2h. The 2h sword is the buff bar. Also, I'm not "Ganking". I don't gank. My playstyle involves heavy use of cloak and line of sight in combat. Unlike most Nightblades, I actually fight on the front lines. Which means that Radient Magelight is essential to my survival. I usually play either solo (Most of the time) or in small groups (Less then 6).

"Instant death" in open combat usually comes when the player makes a mistake or gets complacent. Otherwise there really isn't a way to kill someone who is paying attention in open combat without the aid of an ally in any decent amount of time (Excluding bugs), due to the sheer strength of shields and heals. My role in a group is usually to punish every mistake my enemies make, which my allies force them to make.

Nightblades weren't always like this though. I still remember when playing a Nightblade well required far more skill, and as a result, there is a difference between the "I just rerolled Nightblade in 1.6" types and the "I played Nightblade from beta" types in terms of skill level. It gets very apparent in open combat.

I still don't understand how this thread got from discussing animation canceling to talking about Nightblades, all I did was use some personal examples in my posts. In any case, animation canceling can be used by every class in the game, and it's not the main culprit for "Instant kills". I have had many other Nightblades use the exact same combo on me and not managing to even deal more then 70% of my health in combat. It's the sheer strength of the gear, as well as the stacking of buffs that allows for 90% of what people call "OP" in PvP to happen. With the removal of softcaps, nerfing of HP and the buffing of regens to godlike levels, it has resulted in "50% of all builds can instakill" instead of the old "5% of all builds can instakill because they are built for it".

The champion system allows for a lot of weaknesses that previously couldn't be mitigated to be passively mitigated. This has allowed for people to focus on maximizing the offensive aspect of builds, as old parts of gear and enchants used to be dedicated to staying alive are now changed into offensive versions as the champion system covers all the weaknesses left by the void.

As a result, builds get more focused and focused, breaking the limits of previously acceptable power levels, and continue to push the envelop on what is possible. In the previous patches, it used to be mortals vs mortals. Now it's demi-gods vs demi-gods and people without sufficient CP are the poor sods that get trampled over between this battle of gods. A bit dramatic, I know, but this is the best analogy that came to mind as I write this.