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Is the "No Raids" decision being revisited?

Godless_Heathen
I got two toons to max level and unsubbed as I became bored with Cyro encounters. Raids would be something to draw me in over the long term. I mean real 24 man progression oriented raids with epic loot armor and difficult boss encounters/mechanics , not throwaway 15 man instances.

Would just like some revised feedback on whether or not this willhappen. I seem to recall some discussion that this issue would be revisited should the community request it pre beta.

Thanks
  • theyancey
    theyancey
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    Well, this isn't WoW, EQ, or one f their clones so I am guessing not.
  • Natjur
    Natjur
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    The last dev speak was about adding a 8 &12 man version of all the current instanced 4 man dungeons but not before the champion system is in place (where L50 is the new max)

    Just wait for that and see
    Edited by Natjur on August 1, 2014 10:47PM
  • bosmern_ESO
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    There is a new zone currently in the works that is oriented to groups of players. We have no idea what it will contain but it could stick to the 12 man trials formula or add raids into the game.
    ~Thallen~
  • Badh0rse
    Badh0rse
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    Raids in eso ..... ummmm yes please!
  • Wifeaggro13
    Wifeaggro13
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    theyancey wrote: »
    Well, this isn't WoW, EQ, or one f their clones so I am guessing not.

    They could only dream of that sucess. But as the Op said it would bring droves of subs back. Trials are horrible im sorry. They are bad. Zergy twitchy and unrewarding. They divide the community and dont offer the casual an enviroment to make progression. Your forced to form and reform , pvp exploits are encouraged and many have spit this type of end game out like a cat crap Bbq. I dont think they should cling to tightly to their vision. Retention speaks the truth and right now its at 40% thats bad.
  • Makkir
    Makkir
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    I would be fine with Raids on the condition it does not involve the gear tiers the other MMOs have. I like this game for it's unique "player centered" gear economy. I dont want another MMO where I need to raid every week to keep replacing old gear. I would rather raids differ in mechanics and content instead of always being a gear check. Dropping unique crafter mats would be an added benefit.
  • timidobserver
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    It is hilarious how many people can't think of a better reason to not have these than the fact that WoW has them.
    V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
    V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
    V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
    V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
    V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)

  • Wifeaggro13
    Wifeaggro13
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    It is hilarious how many people can't think of a better reason to not have these than the fact that WoW has them.

    A lot of things baffle me about the community lol
  • Cyberdown
    Cyberdown
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    Ill be honest.

    With the combat system in this game, unless it was one single giant boss and nothing else...the combat just isn't conducive to raid content.

    I cant imagine for the life of me how much of a pain it would be to try to target one specific mob in a pack, or target one specific player for say a heal...or deal with the "don't stand in me ***" telegraphed attacks if you are not range in a raid scenario.

    IMO its best that they focus on the TES content for pve and what they have now for pvp...just add some new areas and new content/classes/skill lines/whatever for pve and now stuffs for pvp.

  • Anastasia
    Anastasia
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    I got two toons to max level and unsubbed as I became bored with Cyro encounters. Raids would be something to draw me in over the long term. I mean real 24 man progression oriented raids with epic loot armor and difficult boss encounters/mechanics , not throwaway 15 man instances.

    Would just like some revised feedback on whether or not this willhappen. I seem to recall some discussion that this issue would be revisited should the community request it pre beta.

    Thanks


    **Sorry to say Godless_Heathen...you've popped back in right in the middle of the era of ZOS responding to demands by solo-centric players to make TESO soloable all the time, through all the zones including Craglorn, total endgame and now, even calls for a PvP-less Cyrodiil.

    With grouping apparently a word akin to internetz cybering as far as detestable features go in gaming...Not sure its a good time to be asking about any sort of version of raiding in this MMO... o-0



    Edited by Anastasia on August 2, 2014 2:34AM
  • shiva7663
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    Something huge like Hamidon raids from City of Heroes.
  • Audigy
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    WOW has huge issues with its raid or die system, WS is bleeding subs due the lack of non raid content do I need to go on?

    Yes, big raids of 40 players worked 10 years ago - I was doing them myself and it was great fun. Fact however is, the PC gaming community is pretty old, many are in their 20s or 30s. Those people just cant spend 4 hours every evening in a raid dungeon, its impossible with a family, friends and a job and also our current "more raids" people will grow up and learn this soon enough.

    Therefore MMO companies need to come up with something else and I think ZO didn't do that bad there. Those hardcores and young players can progress by doing trials, there is a leaderboard and they can compete for being the best and greatest.

    Everyone else however does not need to do the Trials, they are optional content and that's good.

    I don't think ZO wants to do like WS or Blizz currently do, MMOs where not even 10% see the content - its a waste of men power in the developer office.

    What ZO should focus on are big encounters in the open world, dynamic events like attacks on cities and a housing system.


    Raids in all their sizes and difficulties are past and just don't work anymore for MMOs.
  • shiva7663
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    Audigy wrote: »
    Fact however is, the PC gaming community is pretty old, many are in their 20s or 30s.

    That's a heck of a worldview you've got there, pardner.
  • Snit
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    I hope ESO doesn't become the 1,674th MMO which turns the endgame into raiding, gating all the best-in-slot toys behind a wall of 24-person content. I've played that game enough. I hoped this one might be different.
    Edited by Snit on August 2, 2014 3:16AM
    Snit AD Sorc
    Ratbag AD Warden Tank
    Goblins AD Stamblade

  • Jahoel
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    This.
    Trials are horrible im sorry. They are bad. Zergy twitchy and unrewarding. They divide the community and dont offer the casual an enviroment to make progression. Your forced to form and reform , pvp exploits are encouraged and many have spit this type of end game out like a cat crap Bbq. I dont think they should cling to tightly to their vision.

    Trials do not facilitate "competitive play", unless you consider a handful of groups playing the exact same builds for positions on leaderboards that only they care about to be competitive. They do not offer rewards, unless you consider a general lack of challenge, and sub-par gear that is quickly attained (and deconstructed) to be rewarding (excluding perhaps 1-3 sets: which are still only marginally better, if not as good as the crafted gear that nearly anyone can make at this point).

    What trials do offer is an utter alienation of a majority of the casual or moderate gamers still playing the game. A small, and (mostly) disagreeable end-game PvE community. And less build and composition diversity than any PvE content I have ever seen, which is grossly contradictory to everything that ESO was designed to be, advertised to be, and interpreted as by a majority of it's buyers.

    Oh, and this.
    It is hilarious how many people can't think of a better reason to not have these than the fact that WoW has them.

    I don't complain when players ask for more solo content, more PvP content, more dynamic world event content, more aesthetic content, free game time, or anything else. That's what those players want, and they should be able to speak their mind and have a chance at being heard and rewarded with the content they want to see being added to the game. I am not only happy for those players when I see that content coming, but I am excited to have the chance to play it as well. If I don't want to, I won't.

    There is no good reason to advocate not having raids in The Elder Scrolls Online. Having raid content does not mean that we must have superior gear drop in that content. The reward could be as simple as a challenge overcame, hard modes and achievements, maybe some gear similar in quality to trials gear. If you don't like them, you don't have to do them. I don't even think that, despite my loathing of trials, raids should replace trials. I just think that they should be an additional option, for those of us who prefer that kind of large-group PvE content over this... whatever this is, that we have now.

    I will jump for joy the day that I see a ZoS post on these forums stating that they are at least considering this kind of content, for those of us that will enjoy it.
    Edited by Jahoel on August 2, 2014 4:03AM
  • Zorrashi
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    Raids.....as in 20 to 40 people in a group for difficult content raid?

    Totally fine with it. But only on a few conditions that you can obviously tell are for my own personal interest.

    1) The reward that you get at the end better not be better than crafted gear.

    It can be equal and/or have unique enchants, but not distinctly superior. I hate the very concept of gear grinds/progression that is tied to raiding. No mats either, as that is basically the same as gear grinding only with more steps.
    That being said, I will not mind if you get an insane amount of gold for completing it, or get skill points, or attribute points or....anything really. Hell, even give you unique abilities that no one else has! But not superior gear/weapons.

    2) The game does not become too centered on it that players feel that they are 'forced' into it.
    I would just really hate the game if it became like every other MMO out there which requires grouping to properly enjoy end game.
    This is just to appease the casuals and non-raiders. Some people just don't like that play style. I don't think ESO will ever make end game raid-centric but...yeah.

    That's it. I really see no reason not to add raiding so long as it follows those two guidelines. Well, maybe not the first point, as that can devolve into an entire debate in and of itself. But I hope it goes without saying that at bare minimum this game should never, at any point in time, become raid oriented. That just segregates and likely looses a significant portion (that I think is the majority) of its subbers.
  • Alphashado
    Alphashado
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    Jahoel wrote: »
    This.
    Trials are horrible im sorry. They are bad. Zergy twitchy and unrewarding. They divide the community and dont offer the casual an enviroment to make progression. Your forced to form and reform , pvp exploits are encouraged and many have spit this type of end game out like a cat crap Bbq. I dont think they should cling to tightly to their vision.

    Trials do not facilitate "competitive play", unless you consider a handful of groups playing the exact same builds for positions on leaderboards that only they care about to be competitive. They do not offer rewards, unless you consider a general lack of challenge, and sub-par gear that is quickly attained (and deconstructed) to be rewarding (excluding perhaps 1-3 sets: which are still only marginally better, if not as good as the crafted gear that nearly anyone can make at this point).

    What trials do offer is an utter alienation of a majority of the casual or moderate gamers still playing the game. A small, and (mostly) disagreeable end-game PvE community. And less build and composition diversity than any PvE content I have ever seen, which is grossly contradictory to everything that ESO was designed to be, advertised to be, and interpreted as by a majority of it's buyers.

    Oh, and this.
    It is hilarious how many people can't think of a better reason to not have these than the fact that WoW has them.

    I don't complain when players ask for more solo content, more PvP content, more dynamic world event content, more aesthetic content, free game time, or anything else. That's what those players want, and they should be able to speak their mind and have a chance at being heard and rewarded with the content they want to see being added to the game. I am not only happy for those players when I see that content coming, but I am excited to have the chance to play it as well. If I don't want to, I won't.

    There is no good reason to advocate not having raids in The Elder Scrolls Online. Having raid content does not mean that we must have superior gear drop in that content. The reward could be as simple as a challenge overcame, hard modes and achievements, maybe some gear similar in quality to trials gear. If you don't like them, you don't have to do them. I don't even think that, despite my loathing of trials, raids should replace trials. I just think that they should be an additional option, for those of us who prefer that kind of large-group PvE content over this... whatever this is, that we have now.

    I will jump for joy the day that I see a ZoS post on these forums stating that they are at least considering this kind of content, for those of us that will enjoy it.

    Sorry but I feel compelled to interject. Twice now you have made the comment that trials alienate casual and moderate players. Are you suggesting that progressive 25 and 40 man raids do not? You have also suggested that trials are full of groups all using meta builds. Are you suggesting large raiding guilds would expect anything less than cookie cutter builds for max dps etc?

    Large raiding guilds tend to be elite and very unforgiving. They demand the best tank specs, the best dps builds, and the best healing builds. In most cases deviating from this will get you booted from your guild and/or the raid. it is what it is, but suggesting that large raids would be less alienating to casual players than trials sounds ludicrous to me.

  • Jahoel
    Jahoel
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    Alphashado wrote: »
    Twice now you have made the comment that trials alienate casual and moderate players.

    *Once
    Alphashado wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that progressive 25 and 40 man raids do not (alienate casual and moderate players)?

    No, I am suggesting that they are more welcoming than what we are seeing in (most) guilds that are running trials now.
    Alphashado wrote: »
    Are you suggesting large raiding guilds would expect anything less than cookie cutter builds for max dps etc?

    Absolutely, yes. The encounters in trials can (with exceptional ease) be completed by groups that are far from optimal. I have completed both AA and HRC with my guild group composed of 2-5 melee or hybrid/stamina dps, 3 healers, 2 tanks.

    But that faded quickly with the realization that magicka builds utilizing light armor and staves were overwhelmingly superior. That only one tank, and one healer, was required for practically all of the encounters in both of the available 12-man instances. Of course this is a design fault, the advantage of magicka builds and the lack of tight healing and tanking requirements is not at all a symptom of elitism.

    Regardless.

    I have seen next to no pug groups for trials in several weeks, and when I do see a group looking for more - it is always looking to fill with staff-wielding, light-armor wearing DPS. My own group included. Nothing else. No tanks. No healers. No stamina builds, hybrids, or anything that someone might want to play because it is their "style". Something they enjoy.

    Why? Because the only reward is a superficial spot on a "leader board" that, in reality, few people care about, and even fewer for any time longer than the #1. If you are not running these trials for time, there is literally no reason to run them at all after the first week.

    If these were larger raids, focused more on survivability, mechanics, longevity, progression, and rewarded (mostly) by achievements and/or aesthetic items, rather than timed instances designed to be steamrolled in 10 minutes or less for little more than bragging rights, groups like mine would absolutely care less about the quality of build, and more about the quality of player. That's not to say that there wouldn't be elite, min-max, cookie-cutter or gtfo guilds, but there would certainly be more breathing room for those players who wish to raid, but don't wish to do it quite that way.
    Alphashado wrote: »
    suggesting that large raids would be less alienating to casual players than trials sounds ludicrous to me.

    Millions of casual players have raided, somewhat successfully, in other MMORPG titles for over a decade. Very few casual ESO players even know what the inside of Hel Ra Citadel looks like, and not just because of the grind to VR12.

    I talk to players every time I try to fill a position that want so badly to raid, that are VR12, that are at least moderately intelligent. Good, agreeable people, that simply refuse to equip a staff and a robe, when they like slashing things with a giant sword so much. Or to play DPS, when they truly love tanking or healing.

    I hope you don't take any offense to this, although it seems you may be trying to agitate the discussion. That's fine. I came here for one purpose, to put my two cents into a subject that I am passionate about.

    I stand by the need for larger, more challenging raids rewarded with something aside from a better time.
    Edited by Jahoel on August 2, 2014 6:38AM
  • KariTR
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    I wouldn't object to single 'raid' bosses that appear randomly in zones and wander around - preferably up and down roads, so no one has to deal with a ton of mobs at the same time.

    The 'raid' would then be open to all players on the map and would be an organic event rather than a 'weds, 8pm, bring pots and be on TS' :yawn:
    Edited by KariTR on August 2, 2014 6:40AM
  • Wifeaggro13
    Wifeaggro13
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    Jahoel wrote: »
    Alphashado wrote: »
    Twice now you have made the comment that trials alienate casual and moderate players.

    *Once
    Alphashado wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that progressive 25 and 40 man raids do not (alienate casual and moderate players)?

    No, I am suggesting that they are more welcoming than what we are seeing in (most) guilds that are running trials now.
    Alphashado wrote: »
    Are you suggesting large raiding guilds would expect anything less than cookie cutter builds for max dps etc?

    Absolutely, yes. The encounters in trials can (with exceptional ease) be completed by groups that are far from optimal. I have completed both AA and HRC with my guild group composed of 2-5 melee or hybrid/stamina dps, 3 healers, 2 tanks.

    But that faded quickly with the realization that magicka builds utilizing light armor and staves were overwhelmingly superior. That only one tank, and one healer, was required for practically all of the encounters in both of the available 12-man instances. Of course this is a design fault, the advantage of magicka builds and the lack of tight healing and tanking requirements is not at all a symptom of elitism.

    Regardless.

    I have seen next to no pug groups for trials in several weeks, and when I do see a group looking for more - it is always looking to fill with staff-wielding, light-armor wearing DPS. My own group included. Nothing else. No tanks. No healers. No stamina builds, hybrids, or anything that someone might want to play because it is their "style". Something they enjoy.

    Why? Because the only reward is a superficial spot on a "leader board" that, in reality, few people care about, and even fewer for any time longer than the #1. If you are not running these trials for time, there is literally no reason to run them at all after the first week.

    If these were larger raids, focused more on survivability, mechanics, longevity, progression, and rewarded (mostly) by achievements and/or aesthetic items, rather than timed instances designed to be steamrolled in 10 minutes or less for little more than bragging rights, groups like mine would absolutely care less about the quality of build, and more about the quality of player. That's not to say that there wouldn't be elite, min-max, cookie-cutter or gtfo guilds, but there would certainly be more breathing room for those players who wish to raid, but don't wish to do it quite that way.
    Alphashado wrote: »
    suggesting that large raids would be less alienating to casual players than trials sounds ludicrous to me.

    Millions of casual players have raided, somewhat successfully, in other MMORPG titles for over a decade. Very few casual ESO players even know what the inside of Hel Ra Citadel looks like, and not just because of the grind to VR12.

    I talk to players every time I try to fill a position that want so badly to raid, that are VR12, that are at least moderately intelligent. Good, agreeable people, that simply refuse to equip a staff and a robe, when they like slashing things with a giant sword so much. Or to play DPS, when they truly love tanking or healing.

    I hope you don't take any offense to this, although it seems you may be trying to agitate the discussion. That's fine. I came here for one purpose, to put my two cents into a subject that I am passionate about.

    I stand by the need for larger, more challenging raids rewarded with something aside from a better time.
    Traditional raiding and progression has its problems . But trials are far worse. i would take raiding over this any day, the current cookie cutter for top time is non sense . the end game across the board needs an overhaul and implementing things that worked in other games is a pretty smart place to start.
  • YakoTaki
    YakoTaki
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    Jahoel wrote: »
    Alphashado wrote: »


    I have seen next to no pug groups for trials in several weeks, and when I do see a group looking for more - it is always looking to fill with staff-wielding, light-armor wearing DPS. My own group included. Nothing else. No tanks. No healers. No stamina builds, hybrids, or anything that someone might want to play because it is their "style". Something they enjoy.

    Why? Because the only reward is a superficial spot on a "leader board" that, in reality, few people care about, and even fewer for any time longer than the #1. If you are not running these trials for time, there is literally no reason to run them at all after the first week.

    It needs to change quickly, it can not be that a group of players is excluded......
  • Alphashado
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    Jahoel wrote: »
    Alphashado wrote: »
    Twice now you have made the comment that trials alienate casual and moderate players.

    *Once
    Alphashado wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that progressive 25 and 40 man raids do not (alienate casual and moderate players)?

    No, I am suggesting that they are more welcoming than what we are seeing in (most) guilds that are running trials now.
    Alphashado wrote: »
    Are you suggesting large raiding guilds would expect anything less than cookie cutter builds for max dps etc?

    Absolutely, yes. The encounters in trials can (with exceptional ease) be completed by groups that are far from optimal. I have completed both AA and HRC with my guild group composed of 2-5 melee or hybrid/stamina dps, 3 healers, 2 tanks.

    But that faded quickly with the realization that magicka builds utilizing light armor and staves were overwhelmingly superior. That only one tank, and one healer, was required for practically all of the encounters in both of the available 12-man instances. Of course this is a design fault, the advantage of magicka builds and the lack of tight healing and tanking requirements is not at all a symptom of elitism.

    Regardless.

    I have seen next to no pug groups for trials in several weeks, and when I do see a group looking for more - it is always looking to fill with staff-wielding, light-armor wearing DPS. My own group included. Nothing else. No tanks. No healers. No stamina builds, hybrids, or anything that someone might want to play because it is their "style". Something they enjoy.

    Why? Because the only reward is a superficial spot on a "leader board" that, in reality, few people care about, and even fewer for any time longer than the #1. If you are not running these trials for time, there is literally no reason to run them at all after the first week.

    If these were larger raids, focused more on survivability, mechanics, longevity, progression, and rewarded (mostly) by achievements and/or aesthetic items, rather than timed instances designed to be steamrolled in 10 minutes or less for little more than bragging rights, groups like mine would absolutely care less about the quality of build, and more about the quality of player. That's not to say that there wouldn't be elite, min-max, cookie-cutter or gtfo guilds, but there would certainly be more breathing room for those players who wish to raid, but don't wish to do it quite that way.
    Alphashado wrote: »
    suggesting that large raids would be less alienating to casual players than trials sounds ludicrous to me.

    Millions of casual players have raided, somewhat successfully, in other MMORPG titles for over a decade. Very few casual ESO players even know what the inside of Hel Ra Citadel looks like, and not just because of the grind to VR12.

    I talk to players every time I try to fill a position that want so badly to raid, that are VR12, that are at least moderately intelligent. Good, agreeable people, that simply refuse to equip a staff and a robe, when they like slashing things with a giant sword so much. Or to play DPS, when they truly love tanking or healing.

    I hope you don't take any offense to this, although it seems you may be trying to agitate the discussion. That's fine. I came here for one purpose, to put my two cents into a subject that I am passionate about.

    I stand by the need for larger, more challenging raids rewarded with something aside from a better time.

    I am on my mobile so it's just way easier to quote everything. That being said, I take no offense at all. Nor did I intend any. My point was that I feel an argument can be made for raids in order to attract certain players or to create a more diverse endgame. But I still disagree about raids being casual friendly or less alienating.

    If the raids are challenging (as they would be at first) then guilds would still demand the same robe and stick dps output. They would still demand the same tank skills, and they would still demand the same uber meta heal class/spec. They would be asking for recount screenshots or using parcers of some kind.

    I have seen raiding guilds in games like wow or rift absolutely refuse to take certain classes. (Burning crusade ret pally comes to mind here. Or frost specced Mage). The list goes on. "Sorry, recount says your dps is too low. Find another guild". It's just the nature of the beast.

    Casual players are not welcome in most raiding guilds unless they are running older raids that have been nerfed.

    Edited by Alphashado on August 2, 2014 8:09AM
  • KariTR
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    Not if they were implemented as I described above Shado. Of course guilds could still organise themselves, should they wish, but open world raid bosses would be open to everyone - casual, lower level, hardcore etc.

  • Alphashado
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    KariTR wrote: »
    Not if they were implemented as I described above Shado. Of course guilds could still organise themselves, should they wish, but open world raid bosses would be open to everyone - casual, lower level, hardcore etc.

    Aye. But I was responding to the OP and similar opinions about progressive standard raids. I believe what you speak of would be more along the lines of dynamic encounters like GW2.

  • Phantax
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    It is hilarious how many people can't think of a better reason to not have these than the fact that WoW has them.

    Its just sad when all people can do is quote the WoW clone dross, blah blah.
    Simple fact is that a great number of MMO players enjoy raids. Who cares if X MMO had them? If people want them, let them have them. If you dont want them, nobody is forcing you to do them.

    ;)
    High Elf Sorcerer VR12 - Destro / Resto Staff
    I'm a werewolf. If you vamps don't like it.... Bite me !
    We're not retreating... we're advancing in a different direction !
  • Vahrokh
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    @Above

    1) Like many, I am playing ESO because it's not WoW.

    2) I have played WoW as pre-patch 1.7 feral druid and frost mage. It's years old stuff, but some will still find "famous" posts and videos by "Sahrokh, the feral druid". My guides and videos made to prominent websites, were sticked on Blizzard forums and even (still available) on top famed Nihlum top world guild forums.

    The stigma against feral druids was so huge that:

    - Only heal spec druids were accepted by guilds at all. I am not saying "by rading guilds", but feral druids were not even accepted in any not "extreme casual" / "level up" guild.

    - Even heal spec druids were generally not accepted by raiding guilds: as eloquently told me many times by raid leaders: "they are a waste of a good raid spot". The raid drops were pathetic: healing gear with... agility.

    - Try "needing" on a ring with agility and strength stats: it was instant guild kick from every raiding guild. I recall the one Molten Core ring with those stats being nicknamed: "guild destroyer" because it was so rare everyone saved craptons of DKP just for it and the 1-2 times a year it'd drop, often a quarter of the guild would quit over it.

    Since I am thick headed and demand for myself the most impossible challenges, I got stuffed being a mediocre healbot and created my own hard core raiding guild, where we welcomed "insanity" like feral druids, DPS spec priests and similar.

    It took months with no RL vacations to create and manage it, in the end we raided and farmed everything from Molten Core to Naxxramas. With 1 feral druid main tank, me, one of the FIVE IN THE WORLD.

    And we won, we prevailed, the others were laughing "lol they bring in DPS priests and arms spec warriors" yet we surpassed them.


    All of this to say, the raiding guilds scenario is not an easy one.
    It takes insane dedication if you are not a FOTM class and spec, and you want to take this to ESO?

    Before and after that epic guild (called Deus Ex Machina), I have been in many top, hard core raiding guilds. Not one of them (except mine) EVER accepted "offspecs". Some classes were forbidden to even enter or were limited: could only accept 1 hunter and so on. No frost mages, so my mage was always in trouble to be allowed to raid.

    We have already this madness in ESO:

    9gRXh9V.png

    So the stigma players are already here. And you want to give them more power to discriminate against players whose only fault is to have rolled the class and spec they love?
    N.B. I am playing a sorceress so I am not talking for my own interest here.


    Also, back at WoW time, we had to grind about 2+ hours a day for potions etc. and then have a 4 hours raid. This is 6 (six) hours every day.
    But we were all 20-ish old, with no responsibilities, no family.

    Now the MMO playerbase is aging (newest generations seem to be less willing to play MMOs) and the MMO companies are adapting by offering less exclusive content.

    When I raided, only 1.5% of the whole playerbase ever set their foot in the first raid instance (Molten Core). Only years and years later, almost close to the TBC expansion, "randoms" started doing Onyxia and the beginning of Molten Core.


    I don't want this, all over again.

    We don't want this, all over again.
  • Alphashado
    Alphashado
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Vahrokh wrote: »
    @Above

    1) Like many, I am playing ESO because it's not WoW.

    2) I have played WoW as pre-patch 1.7 feral druid and frost mage. It's years old stuff, but some will still find "famous" posts and videos by "Sahrokh, the feral druid". My guides and videos made to prominent websites, were sticked on Blizzard forums and even (still available) on top famed Nihlum top world guild forums.

    The stigma against feral druids was so huge that:

    - Only heal spec druids were accepted by guilds at all. I am not saying "by rading guilds", but feral druids were not even accepted in any not "extreme casual" / "level up" guild.

    - Even heal spec druids were generally not accepted by raiding guilds: as eloquently told me many times by raid leaders: "they are a waste of a good raid spot". The raid drops were pathetic: healing gear with... agility.

    - Try "needing" on a ring with agility and strength stats: it was instant guild kick from every raiding guild. I recall the one Molten Core ring with those stats being nicknamed: "guild destroyer" because it was so rare everyone saved craptons of DKP just for it and the 1-2 times a year it'd drop, often a quarter of the guild would quit over it.

    Since I am thick headed and demand for myself the most impossible challenges, I got stuffed being a mediocre healbot and created my own hard core raiding guild, where we welcomed "insanity" like feral druids, DPS spec priests and similar.

    It took months with no RL vacations to create and manage it, in the end we raided and farmed everything from Molten Core to Naxxramas. With 1 feral druid main tank, me, one of the FIVE IN THE WORLD.

    And we won, we prevailed, the others were laughing "lol they bring in DPS priests and arms spec warriors" yet we surpassed them.


    All of this to say, the raiding guilds scenario is not an easy one.
    It takes insane dedication if you are not a FOTM class and spec, and you want to take this to ESO?

    Before and after that epic guild (called Deus Ex Machina), I have been in many top, hard core raiding guilds. Not one of them (except mine) EVER accepted "offspecs". Some classes were forbidden to even enter or were limited: could only accept 1 hunter and so on. No frost mages, so my mage was always in trouble to be allowed to raid.

    We have already this madness in ESO:

    9gRXh9V.png

    So the stigma players are already here. And you want to give them more power to discriminate against players whose only fault is to have rolled the class and spec they love?
    N.B. I am playing a sorceress so I am not talking for my own interest here.


    Also, back at WoW time, we had to grind about 2+ hours a day for potions etc. and then have a 4 hours raid. This is 6 (six) hours every day.
    But we were all 20-ish old, with no responsibilities, no family.

    Now the MMO playerbase is aging (newest generations seem to be less willing to play MMOs) and the MMO companies are adapting by offering less exclusive content.

    When I raided, only 1.5% of the whole playerbase ever set their foot in the first raid instance (Molten Core). Only years and years later, almost close to the TBC expansion, "randoms" started doing Onyxia and the beginning of Molten Core.


    I don't want this, all over again.

    We don't want this, all over again.

    Well said. Your post just reinforces my point that large raids would certainly NOT create an environment more friendly to casual gamers.

    That being said though, I wouldn't be opposed to it so long as zos stuck to their guns and made comparable gear available through crafting. My raiding days are long gone as well. But I appreciate the influx of subs that raids would bring.

    I just don't want to see uber powerful gear that far exceeds anything in the game locked behind content that requires so much time and dedication that it literally ruins families and relationships.



  • cracker81
    cracker81
    ✭✭✭
    I would say have comparable gear through raiding,solo dungeons (hard ones where it feels like you may need help), crafting, pvp, and vet group dungeons. Have different set bonus and looks. It is almost like that now.^^
  • Demira
    Demira
    ✭✭✭
    Audigy wrote: »
    Fact however is, the PC gaming community is pretty old, many are in their 20s or 30s.

    shiva7663 wrote: »
    Audigy wrote: »
    Fact however is, the PC gaming community is pretty old, many are in their 20s or 30s.

    That's a heck of a worldview you've got there, pardner.

    LOL you need to add the 40's, 50's 60's Plus players! Because we are here too! :P
    Edited by Demira on August 2, 2014 11:29AM
  • Badh0rse
    Badh0rse
    ✭✭✭
    I see all through these forums that raiding is dead to gamers ...... that must be why WoW still has the most subs! Pull your heads out of your butts you knuckle dragging door knobs! You can crap all over bliz all you want but you can't deny that they had an amazing game going for a while ... so amazing it was a cultural phenomenon and still has the highest population around. It would seem to me that any idiot could see that some of their systems are what made them so great .... RAIDING being at the top of that list. Any idiot could also play that game and never raid a single day or need to cry about them. Any idiot could play the game for five years then move on and cry about them in other game forums despite the fact that they had fun for years in the game. So why can't ANY idiot see that raids would improve this game? That is assuming of course that they could pull it off properly. This ship is going to sink because it is over loaded with fan boys! You can be a fan of something and still want it to improve FYI.

    edit: here I go posting without the proper amount of coffee in me yet .. why my wife avoids me for an hour in the morning! mua ha ha
    Edited by Badh0rse on August 2, 2014 12:02PM
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