Well, this isn't WoW, EQ, or one f their clones so I am guessing not.
timidobserver wrote: »It is hilarious how many people can't think of a better reason to not have these than the fact that WoW has them.
Godless_Heathen wrote: »I got two toons to max level and unsubbed as I became bored with Cyro encounters. Raids would be something to draw me in over the long term. I mean real 24 man progression oriented raids with epic loot armor and difficult boss encounters/mechanics , not throwaway 15 man instances.
Would just like some revised feedback on whether or not this willhappen. I seem to recall some discussion that this issue would be revisited should the community request it pre beta.
Thanks
Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Trials are horrible im sorry. They are bad. Zergy twitchy and unrewarding. They divide the community and dont offer the casual an enviroment to make progression. Your forced to form and reform , pvp exploits are encouraged and many have spit this type of end game out like a cat crap Bbq. I dont think they should cling to tightly to their vision.
timidobserver wrote: »It is hilarious how many people can't think of a better reason to not have these than the fact that WoW has them.
This.Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Trials are horrible im sorry. They are bad. Zergy twitchy and unrewarding. They divide the community and dont offer the casual an enviroment to make progression. Your forced to form and reform , pvp exploits are encouraged and many have spit this type of end game out like a cat crap Bbq. I dont think they should cling to tightly to their vision.
Trials do not facilitate "competitive play", unless you consider a handful of groups playing the exact same builds for positions on leaderboards that only they care about to be competitive. They do not offer rewards, unless you consider a general lack of challenge, and sub-par gear that is quickly attained (and deconstructed) to be rewarding (excluding perhaps 1-3 sets: which are still only marginally better, if not as good as the crafted gear that nearly anyone can make at this point).
What trials do offer is an utter alienation of a majority of the casual or moderate gamers still playing the game. A small, and (mostly) disagreeable end-game PvE community. And less build and composition diversity than any PvE content I have ever seen, which is grossly contradictory to everything that ESO was designed to be, advertised to be, and interpreted as by a majority of it's buyers.
Oh, and this.timidobserver wrote: »It is hilarious how many people can't think of a better reason to not have these than the fact that WoW has them.
I don't complain when players ask for more solo content, more PvP content, more dynamic world event content, more aesthetic content, free game time, or anything else. That's what those players want, and they should be able to speak their mind and have a chance at being heard and rewarded with the content they want to see being added to the game. I am not only happy for those players when I see that content coming, but I am excited to have the chance to play it as well. If I don't want to, I won't.
There is no good reason to advocate not having raids in The Elder Scrolls Online. Having raid content does not mean that we must have superior gear drop in that content. The reward could be as simple as a challenge overcame, hard modes and achievements, maybe some gear similar in quality to trials gear. If you don't like them, you don't have to do them. I don't even think that, despite my loathing of trials, raids should replace trials. I just think that they should be an additional option, for those of us who prefer that kind of large-group PvE content over this... whatever this is, that we have now.
I will jump for joy the day that I see a ZoS post on these forums stating that they are at least considering this kind of content, for those of us that will enjoy it.
Alphashado wrote: »Twice now you have made the comment that trials alienate casual and moderate players.
Alphashado wrote: »Are you suggesting that progressive 25 and 40 man raids do not (alienate casual and moderate players)?
Alphashado wrote: »Are you suggesting large raiding guilds would expect anything less than cookie cutter builds for max dps etc?
Alphashado wrote: »suggesting that large raids would be less alienating to casual players than trials sounds ludicrous to me.
Traditional raiding and progression has its problems . But trials are far worse. i would take raiding over this any day, the current cookie cutter for top time is non sense . the end game across the board needs an overhaul and implementing things that worked in other games is a pretty smart place to start.Alphashado wrote: »Twice now you have made the comment that trials alienate casual and moderate players.
*OnceAlphashado wrote: »Are you suggesting that progressive 25 and 40 man raids do not (alienate casual and moderate players)?
No, I am suggesting that they are more welcoming than what we are seeing in (most) guilds that are running trials now.Alphashado wrote: »Are you suggesting large raiding guilds would expect anything less than cookie cutter builds for max dps etc?
Absolutely, yes. The encounters in trials can (with exceptional ease) be completed by groups that are far from optimal. I have completed both AA and HRC with my guild group composed of 2-5 melee or hybrid/stamina dps, 3 healers, 2 tanks.
But that faded quickly with the realization that magicka builds utilizing light armor and staves were overwhelmingly superior. That only one tank, and one healer, was required for practically all of the encounters in both of the available 12-man instances. Of course this is a design fault, the advantage of magicka builds and the lack of tight healing and tanking requirements is not at all a symptom of elitism.
Regardless.
I have seen next to no pug groups for trials in several weeks, and when I do see a group looking for more - it is always looking to fill with staff-wielding, light-armor wearing DPS. My own group included. Nothing else. No tanks. No healers. No stamina builds, hybrids, or anything that someone might want to play because it is their "style". Something they enjoy.
Why? Because the only reward is a superficial spot on a "leader board" that, in reality, few people care about, and even fewer for any time longer than the #1. If you are not running these trials for time, there is literally no reason to run them at all after the first week.
If these were larger raids, focused more on survivability, mechanics, longevity, progression, and rewarded (mostly) by achievements and/or aesthetic items, rather than timed instances designed to be steamrolled in 10 minutes or less for little more than bragging rights, groups like mine would absolutely care less about the quality of build, and more about the quality of player. That's not to say that there wouldn't be elite, min-max, cookie-cutter or gtfo guilds, but there would certainly be more breathing room for those players who wish to raid, but don't wish to do it quite that way.Alphashado wrote: »suggesting that large raids would be less alienating to casual players than trials sounds ludicrous to me.
Millions of casual players have raided, somewhat successfully, in other MMORPG titles for over a decade. Very few casual ESO players even know what the inside of Hel Ra Citadel looks like, and not just because of the grind to VR12.
I talk to players every time I try to fill a position that want so badly to raid, that are VR12, that are at least moderately intelligent. Good, agreeable people, that simply refuse to equip a staff and a robe, when they like slashing things with a giant sword so much. Or to play DPS, when they truly love tanking or healing.
I hope you don't take any offense to this, although it seems you may be trying to agitate the discussion. That's fine. I came here for one purpose, to put my two cents into a subject that I am passionate about.
I stand by the need for larger, more challenging raids rewarded with something aside from a better time.
Alphashado wrote: »
I have seen next to no pug groups for trials in several weeks, and when I do see a group looking for more - it is always looking to fill with staff-wielding, light-armor wearing DPS. My own group included. Nothing else. No tanks. No healers. No stamina builds, hybrids, or anything that someone might want to play because it is their "style". Something they enjoy.
Why? Because the only reward is a superficial spot on a "leader board" that, in reality, few people care about, and even fewer for any time longer than the #1. If you are not running these trials for time, there is literally no reason to run them at all after the first week.
It needs to change quickly, it can not be that a group of players is excluded......
Alphashado wrote: »Twice now you have made the comment that trials alienate casual and moderate players.
*OnceAlphashado wrote: »Are you suggesting that progressive 25 and 40 man raids do not (alienate casual and moderate players)?
No, I am suggesting that they are more welcoming than what we are seeing in (most) guilds that are running trials now.Alphashado wrote: »Are you suggesting large raiding guilds would expect anything less than cookie cutter builds for max dps etc?
Absolutely, yes. The encounters in trials can (with exceptional ease) be completed by groups that are far from optimal. I have completed both AA and HRC with my guild group composed of 2-5 melee or hybrid/stamina dps, 3 healers, 2 tanks.
But that faded quickly with the realization that magicka builds utilizing light armor and staves were overwhelmingly superior. That only one tank, and one healer, was required for practically all of the encounters in both of the available 12-man instances. Of course this is a design fault, the advantage of magicka builds and the lack of tight healing and tanking requirements is not at all a symptom of elitism.
Regardless.
I have seen next to no pug groups for trials in several weeks, and when I do see a group looking for more - it is always looking to fill with staff-wielding, light-armor wearing DPS. My own group included. Nothing else. No tanks. No healers. No stamina builds, hybrids, or anything that someone might want to play because it is their "style". Something they enjoy.
Why? Because the only reward is a superficial spot on a "leader board" that, in reality, few people care about, and even fewer for any time longer than the #1. If you are not running these trials for time, there is literally no reason to run them at all after the first week.
If these were larger raids, focused more on survivability, mechanics, longevity, progression, and rewarded (mostly) by achievements and/or aesthetic items, rather than timed instances designed to be steamrolled in 10 minutes or less for little more than bragging rights, groups like mine would absolutely care less about the quality of build, and more about the quality of player. That's not to say that there wouldn't be elite, min-max, cookie-cutter or gtfo guilds, but there would certainly be more breathing room for those players who wish to raid, but don't wish to do it quite that way.Alphashado wrote: »suggesting that large raids would be less alienating to casual players than trials sounds ludicrous to me.
Millions of casual players have raided, somewhat successfully, in other MMORPG titles for over a decade. Very few casual ESO players even know what the inside of Hel Ra Citadel looks like, and not just because of the grind to VR12.
I talk to players every time I try to fill a position that want so badly to raid, that are VR12, that are at least moderately intelligent. Good, agreeable people, that simply refuse to equip a staff and a robe, when they like slashing things with a giant sword so much. Or to play DPS, when they truly love tanking or healing.
I hope you don't take any offense to this, although it seems you may be trying to agitate the discussion. That's fine. I came here for one purpose, to put my two cents into a subject that I am passionate about.
I stand by the need for larger, more challenging raids rewarded with something aside from a better time.
Not if they were implemented as I described above Shado. Of course guilds could still organise themselves, should they wish, but open world raid bosses would be open to everyone - casual, lower level, hardcore etc.
timidobserver wrote: »It is hilarious how many people can't think of a better reason to not have these than the fact that WoW has them.
@Above
1) Like many, I am playing ESO because it's not WoW.
2) I have played WoW as pre-patch 1.7 feral druid and frost mage. It's years old stuff, but some will still find "famous" posts and videos by "Sahrokh, the feral druid". My guides and videos made to prominent websites, were sticked on Blizzard forums and even (still available) on top famed Nihlum top world guild forums.
The stigma against feral druids was so huge that:
- Only heal spec druids were accepted by guilds at all. I am not saying "by rading guilds", but feral druids were not even accepted in any not "extreme casual" / "level up" guild.
- Even heal spec druids were generally not accepted by raiding guilds: as eloquently told me many times by raid leaders: "they are a waste of a good raid spot". The raid drops were pathetic: healing gear with... agility.
- Try "needing" on a ring with agility and strength stats: it was instant guild kick from every raiding guild. I recall the one Molten Core ring with those stats being nicknamed: "guild destroyer" because it was so rare everyone saved craptons of DKP just for it and the 1-2 times a year it'd drop, often a quarter of the guild would quit over it.
Since I am thick headed and demand for myself the most impossible challenges, I got stuffed being a mediocre healbot and created my own hard core raiding guild, where we welcomed "insanity" like feral druids, DPS spec priests and similar.
It took months with no RL vacations to create and manage it, in the end we raided and farmed everything from Molten Core to Naxxramas. With 1 feral druid main tank, me, one of the FIVE IN THE WORLD.
And we won, we prevailed, the others were laughing "lol they bring in DPS priests and arms spec warriors" yet we surpassed them.
All of this to say, the raiding guilds scenario is not an easy one.
It takes insane dedication if you are not a FOTM class and spec, and you want to take this to ESO?
Before and after that epic guild (called Deus Ex Machina), I have been in many top, hard core raiding guilds. Not one of them (except mine) EVER accepted "offspecs". Some classes were forbidden to even enter or were limited: could only accept 1 hunter and so on. No frost mages, so my mage was always in trouble to be allowed to raid.
We have already this madness in ESO:
So the stigma players are already here. And you want to give them more power to discriminate against players whose only fault is to have rolled the class and spec they love?
N.B. I am playing a sorceress so I am not talking for my own interest here.
Also, back at WoW time, we had to grind about 2+ hours a day for potions etc. and then have a 4 hours raid. This is 6 (six) hours every day.
But we were all 20-ish old, with no responsibilities, no family.
Now the MMO playerbase is aging (newest generations seem to be less willing to play MMOs) and the MMO companies are adapting by offering less exclusive content.
When I raided, only 1.5% of the whole playerbase ever set their foot in the first raid instance (Molten Core). Only years and years later, almost close to the TBC expansion, "randoms" started doing Onyxia and the beginning of Molten Core.
I don't want this, all over again.
We don't want this, all over again.
Audigy wrote: »
Fact however is, the PC gaming community is pretty old, many are in their 20s or 30s.