almost everything was better 5 months ago

TiberiusTryton wrote: »

If it is AOE then remove AOE until you know how to fix it.... If it is population in one area then lower the amount of people allowed in one group. Make some changes please. It is such a waste to see this game be so trashy.

Have you visited our Crown Store yet?

aco5712 wrote: »

its the amount of AOE caused by the amount of people in one area leading to calculations being too much. One thing that could help is aoe cap removal. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/133304/aoe-cap-removal/p3 - bump this or this http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p37 - maybe we can get their attention!

Without a "CAP" on AOE doesn't that mean the game has to calculate even more players to take damage at one time? Wasn't this the way it was before during the Vamp DK vs ALL days?

Welcome back Tiberious!

Im not sure AOE cap changes or anything is is going to fix it.

Paul Sage, The Former Creative Director for ESO who has left the company had this to say back in March:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance#latest

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking.

Sage pretty much told us its the game client and server software itself, it scales poorly(Hence the game code performs poorly with many players in the same place), and removing AOE caps isn't going to fix it, and adding more server hardware won't fix it either. The solution is re-writing the entire core server and client software. The game was rushed out the door last April and wasn't ready to be released, yet it was put out anyway and is a big reason the game had such a hard launch.

Matt Firor told us back in March of 2014 in an interview with the Examiner that the pvp population was capped at 1,800 players total.

http://www.examiner.com/article/elder-scrolls-online-pvp-player-limit-checks-at-1800-for-cryodiil-campaign

We will have two megaservers – one for North American players, and one for European players, although you will be able to create characters on both if you wish. The game's PvP area (Cyrodiil) has a population limit of about 1800 players per campaign, but we'll have many campaigns running simultaneously - Matt Firor

They have since lowered the population caps(Twice if im not mistaken) in Cyrodiil and it has done nothing to fix the problems.

Even the PTS right now is laggy and there isn't even a quarter of the players on it that there is on live.

I don't think there is a fix, and if they could patch it out im sure they would have by now.

As Aco512 alluded to, some of the changes in 1.7 may actually make it worse.

I'll wait and see what the final 1.7 patch brings, but going on past history, im not getting my hopes up.

I'll still pray to Talos we get a miracle in 1.7 and the red ping lag is a thing of the past.

aco5712 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Welcome back Tiberious!

Im not sure AOE cap changes or anything is is going to fix it.

Paul Sage, The Former Creative Director for ESO who has left the company had this to say back in March:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance#latest

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking.

Sage pretty much told us its the game client and server software itself, it scales poorly(Hence the game code performs poorly with many players in the same place), and removing AOE caps isn't going to fix it, and adding more server hardware won't fix it either. The solution is re-writing the entire core server and client software. The game was rushed out the door last April and wasn't ready to be released, yet it was put out anyway and is a big reason the game had such a hard launch.

Matt Firor told us back in March of 2014 in an interview with the Examiner that the pvp population was capped at 1,800 players total.

http://www.examiner.com/article/elder-scrolls-online-pvp-player-limit-checks-at-1800-for-cryodiil-campaign

We will have two megaservers – one for North American players, and one for European players, although you will be able to create characters on both if you wish. The game's PvP area (Cyrodiil) has a population limit of about 1800 players per campaign, but we'll have many campaigns running simultaneously - Matt Firor

They have since lowered the population caps(Twice if im not mistaken) in Cyrodiil and it has done nothing to fix the problems.

Even the PTS right now is laggy and there isn't even a quarter of the players on it that there is on live.

I don't think there is a fix, and if they could patch it out im sure they would have by now.

As Aco512 alluded to, some of the changes in 1.7 may actually make it worse.

I'll wait and see what the final 1.7 patch brings, but going on past history, im not getting my hopes up.

I'll still pray to Talos we get a miracle in 1.7 and the red ping lag is a thing of the past.

Okay so if they are saying that it basically requires a mass overhaul of all the code and it's just not possible to do, then as they said they need to make zerg split up. Changing how campaigns score and IC won't do this. It's the security of the zerg that they need to reevaluate. Once they can make being so close together a detriment then people will need to spread and make smaller groups. Hence why I think aoe cap removal could help. Maybe it won't, maybe it will make the zerg stronger (I personally don't see that) but they need to be trying more then what they are already doing.

I agree with you 100% that something needs to be done to address this lag.

I subscribed to the theory of better siege that ignores damage shields and can't be purged as the answer instead of an AOE cap removal....we both want the same thing, and there probably is a few different ways they can go about trying to fix it.

Im glad we are in agreement that more needs to be done to address the core issue.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Welcome back Tiberious!

Im not sure AOE cap changes or anything is is going to fix it.

Paul Sage, The Former Creative Director for ESO who has left the company had this to say back in March:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance#latest

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking.

Sage pretty much told us its the game client and server software itself, it scales poorly(Hence the game code performs poorly with many players in the same place), and removing AOE caps isn't going to fix it, and adding more server hardware won't fix it either. The solution is re-writing the entire core server and client software. The game was rushed out the door last April and wasn't ready to be released, yet it was put out anyway and is a big reason the game had such a hard launch.

Matt Firor told us back in March of 2014 in an interview with the Examiner that the pvp population was capped at 1,800 players total.

http://www.examiner.com/article/elder-scrolls-online-pvp-player-limit-checks-at-1800-for-cryodiil-campaign

We will have two megaservers – one for North American players, and one for European players, although you will be able to create characters on both if you wish. The game's PvP area (Cyrodiil) has a population limit of about 1800 players per campaign, but we'll have many campaigns running simultaneously - Matt Firor

They have since lowered the population caps(Twice if im not mistaken) in Cyrodiil and it has done nothing to fix the problems.

Even the PTS right now is laggy and there isn't even a quarter of the players on it that there is on live.

I don't think there is a fix, and if they could patch it out im sure they would have by now.

As Aco512 alluded to, some of the changes in 1.7 may actually make it worse.

I'll wait and see what the final 1.7 patch brings, but going on past history, im not getting my hopes up.

I'll still pray to Talos we get a miracle in 1.7 and the red ping lag is a thing of the past.

Okay so if they are saying that it basically requires a mass overhaul of all the code and it's just not possible to do, then as they said they need to make zerg split up. Changing how campaigns score and IC won't do this. It's the security of the zerg that they need to reevaluate. Once they can make being so close together a detriment then people will need to spread and make smaller groups. Hence why I think aoe cap removal could help. Maybe it won't, maybe it will make the zerg stronger (I personally don't see that) but they need to be trying more then what they are already doing.

I agree with you 100% that something needs to be done to address this lag.

I subscribed to the theory of better siege that ignores damage shields and can't be purged as the answer instead of an AOE cap removal....we both want the same thing, and there probably is a few different ways they can go about trying to fix it.

Im glad we are in agreement that more needs to be done to address the core issue.

But see siege empowers the zerg. It costs them nothing for one out of 24 to set up a fire ballasts to make it hell for the 12 on the enemy faction but it's a big difference between have 12 and having 11 members. You need to make the smalls as powerful as the big but don't give the big a bigger edge at the same time. That's the only reason any past ideas at breaking the zerg up have failed because they have actually empowered them.

Takllin wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Welcome back Tiberious!

Im not sure AOE cap changes or anything is is going to fix it.

Paul Sage, The Former Creative Director for ESO who has left the company had this to say back in March:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance#latest

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking.

Sage pretty much told us its the game client and server software itself, it scales poorly(Hence the game code performs poorly with many players in the same place), and removing AOE caps isn't going to fix it, and adding more server hardware won't fix it either. The solution is re-writing the entire core server and client software. The game was rushed out the door last April and wasn't ready to be released, yet it was put out anyway and is a big reason the game had such a hard launch.

Matt Firor told us back in March of 2014 in an interview with the Examiner that the pvp population was capped at 1,800 players total.

http://www.examiner.com/article/elder-scrolls-online-pvp-player-limit-checks-at-1800-for-cryodiil-campaign

We will have two megaservers – one for North American players, and one for European players, although you will be able to create characters on both if you wish. The game's PvP area (Cyrodiil) has a population limit of about 1800 players per campaign, but we'll have many campaigns running simultaneously - Matt Firor

They have since lowered the population caps(Twice if im not mistaken) in Cyrodiil and it has done nothing to fix the problems.

Even the PTS right now is laggy and there isn't even a quarter of the players on it that there is on live.

I don't think there is a fix, and if they could patch it out im sure they would have by now.

As Aco512 alluded to, some of the changes in 1.7 may actually make it worse.

I'll wait and see what the final 1.7 patch brings, but going on past history, im not getting my hopes up.

I'll still pray to Talos we get a miracle in 1.7 and the red ping lag is a thing of the past.

Sorry but this is the second time you've posted that AOE caps have nothing to do with it while putting forth a quote that does nothing to back up your point. The reason they are reducing LoS checks is because of the unnecessary calculations on the server side which causes lag. The introduction of their AoE cap system only added more calculations on the server side, so I fail to see how you say that it doesn't cause any lag...

Do you actually have something where a ZoS employee says AoE caps don't affect lag, or is this just your opinion based on something related to framerates?

I think your misunderstanding what I was trying to say and what Paul Sage was trying to tell us.

Paul Sage is talking about "Scaling" in that quote. Not to get into a long drawn out post, but think of it in these terms:

Right now, each campaign allows more players to enter it then the server can actually handle under load. This is proven because once a large group of players start fighting over something performance suffers, these performance drops are of varying degrees, sometimes its mild, sometimes it red ping unplayable depending on conditions.

The introduction of their new AOE cap system only made the existing lag that was already there worse...1.5 and 1.4 both hard considerable lag, lag infact that drove so many players away that it went B2P.

Removing the AOE cap and these LOS checks may help alleviate some of the symptoms, but it probably won't solve the root of the problem.

The only way they will ever get lag and server performance down to acceotable levels is to cull back the pop caps on the campaign to a number they know for a fact it can handle...that means monitoring performance, drawing up charts, measuring curves, and finding that sweet spot where max players = acceptable latency and then cappping the campiagns at that number - 10-20 depending on available information to make that decision.

If ZOS can't find these numbers, or don't have anyone on staff with the Anaylst experience, then they need to hire a System's Analyst from outside the company to come in contract and do this research for them.

Bottom line is i'd rather have 30v30 fights with acceptable latency then the utter garbage i saw on Azura''s last night at Fort Ash where pretty much no meteors were going off at all that i could see or hear yet latency was in the red until the 60+ on each side were done fighting at the mine...yes AD had a large blob there, but DC had an equally large one as well and its unfair to blame each side, its ZOS allowing more players then the server can handle into campaigns that is the root of the problem.

ZOS either needs re-write the code to fix the scaling or cap the campaigns to numbers the server can handle....there is a reason 2 bars on each faction in campaigns rarely have any lag...Thornblade when Moijican was Emp and later Fluffy, the first week and a half of that campaign was 2 bars at prime time for each faction, and lag was non-existent even in the huge dethrone fight at Robeck where all 3 factions were fighting there was no red ping or lag at all, no one in my group nor anyone else had issues using their abilities.....There were numerous big time fights there too, and the server was able to handle it because it was only 2 bars per faction, that seems to be the sweet spot for performance vs numbers...i have yet to see a pop locked campaign in this game that didn't suffer from unbearable lag.

its just my 2 cents in my experiences. I just think the pop caps are too high and the server software simply can't handle it. its just my thoughts, nothing more. if these changes in 1.7 don't fix it, i think ZOS needs to seriously consider culling things back.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Welcome back Tiberious!

Im not sure AOE cap changes or anything is is going to fix it.

Paul Sage, The Former Creative Director for ESO who has left the company had this to say back in March:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance#latest

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking.

Sage pretty much told us its the game client and server software itself, it scales poorly(Hence the game code performs poorly with many players in the same place), and removing AOE caps isn't going to fix it, and adding more server hardware won't fix it either. The solution is re-writing the entire core server and client software. The game was rushed out the door last April and wasn't ready to be released, yet it was put out anyway and is a big reason the game had such a hard launch.

Matt Firor told us back in March of 2014 in an interview with the Examiner that the pvp population was capped at 1,800 players total.

http://www.examiner.com/article/elder-scrolls-online-pvp-player-limit-checks-at-1800-for-cryodiil-campaign

We will have two megaservers – one for North American players, and one for European players, although you will be able to create characters on both if you wish. The game's PvP area (Cyrodiil) has a population limit of about 1800 players per campaign, but we'll have many campaigns running simultaneously - Matt Firor

They have since lowered the population caps(Twice if im not mistaken) in Cyrodiil and it has done nothing to fix the problems.

Even the PTS right now is laggy and there isn't even a quarter of the players on it that there is on live.

I don't think there is a fix, and if they could patch it out im sure they would have by now.

As Aco512 alluded to, some of the changes in 1.7 may actually make it worse.

I'll wait and see what the final 1.7 patch brings, but going on past history, im not getting my hopes up.

I'll still pray to Talos we get a miracle in 1.7 and the red ping lag is a thing of the past.

Sorry but this is the second time you've posted that AOE caps have nothing to do with it while putting forth a quote that does nothing to back up your point. The reason they are reducing LoS checks is because of the unnecessary calculations on the server side which causes lag. The introduction of their AoE cap system only added more calculations on the server side, so I fail to see how you say that it doesn't cause any lag...

Do you actually have something where a ZoS employee says AoE caps don't affect lag, or is this just your opinion based on something related to framerates?

I think your misunderstanding what I was trying to say and what Paul Sage was trying to tell us.

Paul Sage is talking about "Scaling" in that quote. Not to get into a long drawn out post, but think of it in these terms:

Right now, each campaign allows more players to enter it then the server can actually handle under load. This is proven because once a large group of players start fighting over something performance suffers, these performance drops are of varying degrees, sometimes its mild, sometimes it red ping unplayable depending on conditions.

The introduction of their new AOE cap system only made the existing lag that was already there worse...1.5 and 1.4 both hard considerable lag, lag infact that drove so many players away that it went B2P.

Removing the AOE cap and these LOS checks may help alleviate some of the symptoms, but it probably won't solve the root of the problem.

The only way they will ever get lag and server performance down to acceotable levels is to cull back the pop caps on the campaign to a number they know for a fact it can handle...that means monitoring performance, drawing up charts, measuring curves, and finding that sweet spot where max players = acceptable latency and then cappping the campiagns at that number - 10-20 depending on available information to make that decision.

If ZOS can't find these numbers, or don't have anyone on staff with the Anaylst experience, then they need to hire a System's Analyst from outside the company to come in contract and do this research for them.

Bottom line is i'd rather have 30v30 fights with acceptable latency then the utter garbage i saw on Azura''s last night at Fort Ash where pretty much no meteors were going off at all that i could see or hear yet latency was in the red until the 60+ on each side were done fighting at the mine...yes AD had a large blob there, but DC had an equally large one as well and its unfair to blame each side, its ZOS allowing more players then the server can handle into campaigns that is the root of the problem.

ZOS either needs re-write the code to fix the scaling or cap the campaigns to numbers the server can handle....there is a reason 2 bars on each faction in campaigns rarely have any lag...Thornblade when Moijican was Emp and later Fluffy, the first week and a half of that campaign was 2 bars at prime time for each faction, and lag was non-existent even in the huge dethrone fight at Robeck where all 3 factions were fighting there was no red ping or lag at all, no one in my group nor anyone else had issues using their abilities.....There were numerous big time fights there too, and the server was able to handle it because it was only 2 bars per faction, that seems to be the sweet spot for performance vs numbers...i have yet to see a pop locked campaign in this game that didn't suffer from unbearable lag.

its just my 2 cents in my experiences. I just think the pop caps are too high and the server software simply can't handle it. its just my thoughts, nothing more. if these changes in 1.7 don't fix it, i think ZOS needs to seriously consider culling things back.

Solid post.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Welcome back Tiberious!

Im not sure AOE cap changes or anything is is going to fix it.

Paul Sage, The Former Creative Director for ESO who has left the company had this to say back in March:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance#latest

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking.

Sage pretty much told us its the game client and server software itself, it scales poorly(Hence the game code performs poorly with many players in the same place), and removing AOE caps isn't going to fix it, and adding more server hardware won't fix it either. The solution is re-writing the entire core server and client software. The game was rushed out the door last April and wasn't ready to be released, yet it was put out anyway and is a big reason the game had such a hard launch.

Matt Firor told us back in March of 2014 in an interview with the Examiner that the pvp population was capped at 1,800 players total.

http://www.examiner.com/article/elder-scrolls-online-pvp-player-limit-checks-at-1800-for-cryodiil-campaign

We will have two megaservers – one for North American players, and one for European players, although you will be able to create characters on both if you wish. The game's PvP area (Cyrodiil) has a population limit of about 1800 players per campaign, but we'll have many campaigns running simultaneously - Matt Firor

They have since lowered the population caps(Twice if im not mistaken) in Cyrodiil and it has done nothing to fix the problems.

Even the PTS right now is laggy and there isn't even a quarter of the players on it that there is on live.

I don't think there is a fix, and if they could patch it out im sure they would have by now.

As Aco512 alluded to, some of the changes in 1.7 may actually make it worse.

I'll wait and see what the final 1.7 patch brings, but going on past history, im not getting my hopes up.

I'll still pray to Talos we get a miracle in 1.7 and the red ping lag is a thing of the past.

Sorry but this is the second time you've posted that AOE caps have nothing to do with it while putting forth a quote that does nothing to back up your point. The reason they are reducing LoS checks is because of the unnecessary calculations on the server side which causes lag. The introduction of their AoE cap system only added more calculations on the server side, so I fail to see how you say that it doesn't cause any lag...

Do you actually have something where a ZoS employee says AoE caps don't affect lag, or is this just your opinion based on something related to framerates?

I think your misunderstanding what I was trying to say and what Paul Sage was trying to tell us.

Paul Sage is talking about "Scaling" in that quote. Not to get into a long drawn out post, but think of it in these terms:

Right now, each campaign allows more players to enter it then the server can actually handle under load. This is proven because once a large group of players start fighting over something performance suffers, these performance drops are of varying degrees, sometimes its mild, sometimes it red ping unplayable depending on conditions.

The introduction of their new AOE cap system only made the existing lag that was already there worse...1.5 and 1.4 both hard considerable lag, lag infact that drove so many players away that it went B2P.

Removing the AOE cap and these LOS checks may help alleviate some of the symptoms, but it probably won't solve the root of the problem.

The only way they will ever get lag and server performance down to acceotable levels is to cull back the pop caps on the campaign to a number they know for a fact it can handle...that means monitoring performance, drawing up charts, measuring curves, and finding that sweet spot where max players = acceptable latency and then cappping the campiagns at that number - 10-20 depending on available information to make that decision.

If ZOS can't find these numbers, or don't have anyone on staff with the Anaylst experience, then they need to hire a System's Analyst from outside the company to come in contract and do this research for them.

Bottom line is i'd rather have 30v30 fights with acceptable latency then the utter garbage i saw on Azura''s last night at Fort Ash where pretty much no meteors were going off at all that i could see or hear yet latency was in the red until the 60+ on each side were done fighting at the mine...yes AD had a large blob there, but DC had an equally large one as well and its unfair to blame each side, its ZOS allowing more players then the server can handle into campaigns that is the root of the problem.

ZOS either needs re-write the code to fix the scaling or cap the campaigns to numbers the server can handle....there is a reason 2 bars on each faction in campaigns rarely have any lag...Thornblade when Moijican was Emp and later Fluffy, the first week and a half of that campaign was 2 bars at prime time for each faction, and lag was non-existent even in the huge dethrone fight at Robeck where all 3 factions were fighting there was no red ping or lag at all, no one in my group nor anyone else had issues using their abilities.....There were numerous big time fights there too, and the server was able to handle it because it was only 2 bars per faction, that seems to be the sweet spot for performance vs numbers...i have yet to see a pop locked campaign in this game that didn't suffer from unbearable lag.

its just my 2 cents in my experiences. I just think the pop caps are too high and the server software simply can't handle it. its just my thoughts, nothing more. if these changes in 1.7 don't fix it, i think ZOS needs to seriously consider culling things back.

I agree with you that the AoE caps aren't the sole source of the issue, but in the other thread and this as well though to a lesser extent you said it had nothing to do with performance in Cyrodil, which is what I took issue with. While scaling and such is a large issue, the amount of calculations that have to go through the server certainly don't help which is why there has been such a large movement of people asking them to remove them.

I don't know if I agree that they need to cut back on population caps, I think they have a bunch of other options that need to be tested first and this is a last resort. Revert the lighting patch, the botting code, AoE caps, etc. That would really make Cyrodil into Horse Simulator. If absolutely none of that works to get the lag to an acceptable place, then I suppose reducing population caps again would be acceptable, but I think PvP would be dead for even more people at that point.

Also running two raids plus right now is absolutely reckless and inexcusable. TKO and/or Rangers doing that last night was a pile of cow poo, it ruins the campaign for everyone else.

For the first time since I started, last night (10PM est) XBOX NA, BLACKWATERBLADE, I had sustained lag when encountering fighting EP zergs around NIKEL/ROBEK.

All players DC and EP appeared to be slide-show like for sustained periods, eventually culminating in a disconnect with an error message regarding the server. I logged back in several times, only to encounter similar problems until I left the area (went back up North). I checked my connection several times (no packet loss, nominal latency), and even fully shutdown and restarted between attempts. Only by avoiding the EP zerg was I able to mitigate the lag.

I did not notice any meteor usage.

ZOS may want to consider the number of players per faction versus server resources?

Kilandros wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

TiberiusTryton wrote: »

If it is AOE then remove AOE until you know how to fix it.... If it is population in one area then lower the amount of people allowed in one group. Make some changes please. It is such a waste to see this game be so trashy.

The best part is that the Developers refuse to acknowledge that there's a problem with game performance.

What are you talking about? They've acknowledged it multiple times. Why do you think they are reducing LoS checks and been trying a bunch of other behind the scene issues?

You mean the post made back in June that failed to contain any concrete goals for fixes? Yeah ok. Also, LOL at "a bunch of other behind the scene issues." Keep sipping that kool-aid.

I didn't say I was happy with their effort or that it actually worked did I? There's a big difference between not being able to adequately solve the issue and refusing to acknowledge that it exists. Keep pushing your head further up your bottom, it's a good look for you.

Kilandros wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

TiberiusTryton wrote: »

If it is AOE then remove AOE until you know how to fix it.... If it is population in one area then lower the amount of people allowed in one group. Make some changes please. It is such a waste to see this game be so trashy.

The best part is that the Developers refuse to acknowledge that there's a problem with game performance.

What are you talking about? They've acknowledged it multiple times. Why do you think they are reducing LoS checks and been trying a bunch of other behind the scene issues?

You mean the post made back in June that failed to contain any concrete goals for fixes? Yeah ok. Also, LOL at "a bunch of other behind the scene issues." Keep sipping that kool-aid.

I didn't say I was happy with their effort or that it actually worked did I? There's a big difference between not being able to adequately solve the issue and refusing to acknowledge that it exists. Keep pushing your head further up your bottom, it's a good look for you.

Acknowledging the issue would have been a post ITEMIZING the long-term goals and planned changes/fixes one-by-one. We didn't get that. We got an obscure post made in June that basically said "we're looking into it." If that's enough for you, then good for you I guess. I also have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

This game has been out for more than a year, has seen a steady deterioration in performance, and has no end in sight other than some campaign rule changes (which won't affect performance). But please, keep playing forum fanboy while Wheeler promises "changes" and "soon" while reskinned mounts and dresses continue to flood the crown store.

LOL do you want some more salt?

I didn't say it was enough for me though, I simply stated that they've acknowledged that it's an issue and have made some attempts, albeit they all failed, to fix it. I'd love to see them do a hell of a lot more. Saying they refuse to acknowledge it is disingenuous and wrong. You might not like how they've dealt with it, but to say they refuse to acknowledge it...

I'm far from a forum fanboi but whatever helps you sleep at night princess. I'll decline on the bridge offer, I don't want to take away your home from you.

Takllin wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Welcome back Tiberious!

Im not sure AOE cap changes or anything is is going to fix it.

Paul Sage, The Former Creative Director for ESO who has left the company had this to say back in March:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157157/update-on-cyrodiil-performance#latest

Hello everyone,

Our Cyrodiil performance is something we are very aware of. Performance drags when there are numerous players in the same place at the same time. This is why performance in Cyrodiil is fine for much of the day, but gets worse during more popular times. We are currently investigating ways in which we can reduce the spike of performance loss. We added in some features for Update 6 which we hoped would help, but ultimately did not. This is not a situation where we can just add more hardware. Player population in a given area hurts the performance and the more people that are in one area, the more performance is going to be hurt.

Actively, we are looking at changing the behavior of the players to remove incentives for large groups to stay in the same area. We want to do this by providing larger incentives for Alliances to split up and take on multiple-challenges in Cyrodiil. We’ll continue to work on this. We are also asked by players if there is anything they can do to help. In this situation, the best thing you can do is split off to different objectives when you notice performance going down. Cyrodiil is a big place with lots of different things to do. And thank you for asking.

Sage pretty much told us its the game client and server software itself, it scales poorly(Hence the game code performs poorly with many players in the same place), and removing AOE caps isn't going to fix it, and adding more server hardware won't fix it either. The solution is re-writing the entire core server and client software. The game was rushed out the door last April and wasn't ready to be released, yet it was put out anyway and is a big reason the game had such a hard launch.

Matt Firor told us back in March of 2014 in an interview with the Examiner that the pvp population was capped at 1,800 players total.

http://www.examiner.com/article/elder-scrolls-online-pvp-player-limit-checks-at-1800-for-cryodiil-campaign

We will have two megaservers – one for North American players, and one for European players, although you will be able to create characters on both if you wish. The game's PvP area (Cyrodiil) has a population limit of about 1800 players per campaign, but we'll have many campaigns running simultaneously - Matt Firor

They have since lowered the population caps(Twice if im not mistaken) in Cyrodiil and it has done nothing to fix the problems.

Even the PTS right now is laggy and there isn't even a quarter of the players on it that there is on live.

I don't think there is a fix, and if they could patch it out im sure they would have by now.

As Aco512 alluded to, some of the changes in 1.7 may actually make it worse.

I'll wait and see what the final 1.7 patch brings, but going on past history, im not getting my hopes up.

I'll still pray to Talos we get a miracle in 1.7 and the red ping lag is a thing of the past.

Sorry but this is the second time you've posted that AOE caps have nothing to do with it while putting forth a quote that does nothing to back up your point. The reason they are reducing LoS checks is because of the unnecessary calculations on the server side which causes lag. The introduction of their AoE cap system only added more calculations on the server side, so I fail to see how you say that it doesn't cause any lag...

Do you actually have something where a ZoS employee says AoE caps don't affect lag, or is this just your opinion based on something related to framerates?

I think your misunderstanding what I was trying to say and what Paul Sage was trying to tell us.

Paul Sage is talking about "Scaling" in that quote. Not to get into a long drawn out post, but think of it in these terms:

Right now, each campaign allows more players to enter it then the server can actually handle under load. This is proven because once a large group of players start fighting over something performance suffers, these performance drops are of varying degrees, sometimes its mild, sometimes it red ping unplayable depending on conditions.

The introduction of their new AOE cap system only made the existing lag that was already there worse...1.5 and 1.4 both hard considerable lag, lag infact that drove so many players away that it went B2P.

Removing the AOE cap and these LOS checks may help alleviate some of the symptoms, but it probably won't solve the root of the problem.

The only way they will ever get lag and server performance down to acceotable levels is to cull back the pop caps on the campaign to a number they know for a fact it can handle...that means monitoring performance, drawing up charts, measuring curves, and finding that sweet spot where max players = acceptable latency and then cappping the campiagns at that number - 10-20 depending on available information to make that decision.

If ZOS can't find these numbers, or don't have anyone on staff with the Anaylst experience, then they need to hire a System's Analyst from outside the company to come in contract and do this research for them.

Bottom line is i'd rather have 30v30 fights with acceptable latency then the utter garbage i saw on Azura''s last night at Fort Ash where pretty much no meteors were going off at all that i could see or hear yet latency was in the red until the 60+ on each side were done fighting at the mine...yes AD had a large blob there, but DC had an equally large one as well and its unfair to blame each side, its ZOS allowing more players then the server can handle into campaigns that is the root of the problem.

ZOS either needs re-write the code to fix the scaling or cap the campaigns to numbers the server can handle....there is a reason 2 bars on each faction in campaigns rarely have any lag...Thornblade when Moijican was Emp and later Fluffy, the first week and a half of that campaign was 2 bars at prime time for each faction, and lag was non-existent even in the huge dethrone fight at Robeck where all 3 factions were fighting there was no red ping or lag at all, no one in my group nor anyone else had issues using their abilities.....There were numerous big time fights there too, and the server was able to handle it because it was only 2 bars per faction, that seems to be the sweet spot for performance vs numbers...i have yet to see a pop locked campaign in this game that didn't suffer from unbearable lag.

its just my 2 cents in my experiences. I just think the pop caps are too high and the server software simply can't handle it. its just my thoughts, nothing more. if these changes in 1.7 don't fix it, i think ZOS needs to seriously consider culling things back.

I agree with you that the AoE caps aren't the sole source of the issue, but in the other thread and this as well though to a lesser extent you said it had nothing to do with performance in Cyrodil, which is what I took issue with. While scaling and such is a large issue, the amount of calculations that have to go through the server certainly don't help which is why there has been such a large movement of people asking them to remove them.

I don't know if I agree that they need to cut back on population caps, I think they have a bunch of other options that need to be tested first and this is a last resort. Revert the lighting patch, the botting code, AoE caps, etc. That would really make Cyrodil into Horse Simulator. If absolutely none of that works to get the lag to an acceptable place, then I suppose reducing population caps again would be acceptable, but I think PvP would be dead for even more people at that point.

Also running two raids plus right now is absolutely reckless and inexcusable. TKO and/or Rangers doing that last night was a pile of cow poo, it ruins the campaign for everyone else.

Agreed! I ahve always wondered if that anti-botting code or those lighting changes somehow messed up the client and server software scaling creating this whole mess.

It would be nice if ZOS would just remove those things for a few days and see what the performance differences were. It would be interesting to see the outcome.

@kilandros @takllin ...come on guys, lets not wreck the thread. Lets try and solve the issue.

1. We need to force people out of the selection radius to minimise calcs. Right ?
2. We don't want to use OP skills as it just makes more numbers more powerful. Right ?
3. Increasing the caps just allows more and more people to be added to the calculations. Right ?
4. Removing more and more players from the campaigns makes them pointless. Right ?
5. We cant use collision detection as it costs too much on the physics and also adds lag and introduces griefing.

We have a major dilemma and a circle that must be squared.

So I propose a space/time sickness.
No two objects can occupy the same space at the same time.
Doing so starts rapidly sapping your magicka/stamina @ 20% of Max/tick (debatable obviously).

1. This in effect, behaves like collision but manually forces players apart rather than automatically.
Cluster and die or spread out. No physics cost
2. There is no godmode skills here.
It is only self imposed death.
3. Any griefers will find themselves sitting ducks too.
4. Players force themselves outside heal/purge radius.
5. You have 5s to stop arse grabbing each other.
6. You have to think much harder about your group positioning and coordination.

So to me this will bring in some interesting effects...
You wont want everyone piling into your guild healers radius and forcing you out. So it kind of encourages small group play that can comfortably fit in their own radii rather than everyone and their monkey pile into that green circle.
If you are stupid enough to stand too close together and lose all stamina/magicka... you will all be wiped instantly by a half competent group of any size.
100 people standing on the flag will be defenceless and an instant wipe (no standing there with purge/heal/block/shield all damage).