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How to Make a Developer Listen to You.

Turelus
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Anyone who has seen me posting on the forums often has probably noticed I quite often link to or talk about the MMO EVE Online and the company which develops it CCP Games.
The reason for this is because for all their flaws (they do have many) that company is at the very top in regards to play and developer/company communication.

Recently during a discussion on the forums a developer there quoted a players post about a feature they were seeking feedback on and said it was a good post, he was immediately flamed by other posters for choosing favourites and asked why that players post was better than others. In response he posted a very long post about why it was a good post and what the best way of posting is to make a developer actually listen to your argument in regards to a feature.

With all the many threads here of "ZOS FIX THIS!" "ZOS THIS IS BROKEN!" "ZOS NERFED IT!" I thought I would post a copy of that developers post here in the hope that at least a few people will take the time to read it and understand the best way to approach developers about issues with the game.

I hope you enjoy the read and next time you post about game changes you think of this.
1. Here's the general guide, in approximate order of importance from my personal perspective
- Be calm and reasonable. Angry posts are harder to process, both because the actually worthwhile bits tend to be broken up by the angry bits, and just because it takes additional effort to filter out the negative vibes while you're trying to extract the useful information.
- "Show your working". The single most useful thing you can do in a post is to explain, in as much detail as possible, why. Simply stating things you believe to be true is somewhat unhelpful, as it's incumbent upon us as developers to be able to explain why we are making changes, and also to filter out things that players are saying because they are true from things that players are saying that they mistakenly believe to be true from things that players are saying that they know are false but hope will sway development decisions anyway. For both of these reasons, an explanation of why you are saying what you are saying is the biggest thing you can do (in combination with the previous point) to get a developer to make changes based on what you're saying. A lot of people seem to be under the misapprehension that simply stating their opinion should be enough for developers to change their mind; this isn't viable for a number of reasons, but the most obvious one is that any given thread will generally have multiple players stating mutually contradictory opinions. We have to be able to pick between them somehow, right?
- Be specific. I love players who actually present numbers rather than just saying "that is too big", because it makes it very clear what they're actually hoping to see, and gives context for what they find reasonable.
- Consider the whole picture. It's very easy to express an opinion about things that affect you directly. It's much rarer for people to consider how the changes they're suggesting affect other players, particularly those of different playstyles or levels of experience. As developers, we have to consider everyone, and that often involves tradeoffs. Your common-or-garden post says "this is what *I* want", and we have to then synthesize all those different points and figure out how to balance competing interests. Showing at least an awareness of this, and better still actually accounting for it in your working, is a good way to make a post more useful to a developer.
- Have a good, short opening paragraph. If your post starts off badly, I will jump through it quickly looking for anything that sticks out, because I have lots of posts to read and other work to do. If you catch my attention with your opening, I will read it carefully. Note here that I'm not saying it has to make an effort to be catching or provocative, just that a clear, well-written paragraph which meets all the other points in this list suggests that it's a post that's probably worth reading slowly.
- Be novel. Posts bringing up things that haven't previously been mentioned in the thread are generally more useful than posts repeating the same thing that's been mentioned twenty times. I want to properly clarify this: I'm *not* saying not to repeat points, or even that doing so isn't useful. Seeing the same thing brought up multiple times is a good indicator that there is a broad concern about a particular thing. It's not as powerful as a single post laying out succinctly and convincingly why a particular thing is problematic, but it's still useful information!
- Be nice to read. If you can be gently witty, or format and punctuate your post so it's easy to read, that will always score bonus points.

2. Nothing in this thread has been outright ignored. With fifty pages I'm happy to hold up my hand and say that some posts I skim-read because, as above, I have other work to do too, but I have read every post for some definition of "read". I have not replied to every post raising an important point, for a variety of reasons:
- In many cases a reply doesn't really add anything to the discussion
- In some cases that you are considering important posts, I probably simply didn't find the points they were making particularly compelling. YMMV, obviously :)
- I can't reply to everything, both because it would take forever and because it would destroy the rhythm of the thread.
- What a developer does and doesn't reply to tends to, over time, influence the character of the forum. I am less likely to respond to a post which makes good points in a bad way, because while good points are good, bad presentation is bad. Conversely, people making really good posts I will go out of my way to reply to, because I would like to see more posts like that.

3. This is kind of repeating the first question, at least in the case where I take it seriously rather than snarkily. I'm going to use this opportunity then to say why I replied to Shoogie's post:
- He starts off by giving a suggested rank for Titans. I am immediately reading this post carefully. There have been a lot of posts saying "caps take too long to research". Here is somebody actually proposing a solution. Excellent. (Yes, I note that he said the same thing earlier, I guess I didn't catch it the first time round? Sloppy reading on my part, sorry.)
- Good paragraph length, well written, clear, not angry. Good.
- Shows his working for what factors he's taking into account, and covers some edge cases (Hyasyoda lab). Lovely.
- Considers that his suggested number might be too low. I love posts which consider the possibility that they might be wrong, it shows great awareness of how balance actually works and suggests that the author is carefully considering their suggestion.
- Frames things in terms of typical player reactions, this is both a sign that the author is thinking about things from a good perspective, and also allows us to figure out where they're coming from and what other assumptions are being made.
- Thinks about new players in a way that's not transparently just about advancing their own interests. Rare as hens' teeth.
- Writes out a *** table, I love this, saves me doing math :)
- Thinking about interesting decisions, which suggests a decent understanding of game design principles.
- Considers the impact of other changes happening at the same time, which has been surprisingly uncommon in in the discussion of industry changes as a whole. (Also doubles down on this in the post about job costs a few posts further down.)
- Wraps up with some other suggestions for changes, and also mentions things he thinks seem reasonable as-is.

You'll note in my response that I don't agree with everything suggested, specifically with regard to T1 ammo. But the post as a whole is an excellent post that hits a whole lot of "good post" checkboxes at once, and as a result is really damn useful to me as a developer. In the absence of anyone else's input, and given that such things are within certain bounds largely arbitrary anyway (ie, there's no obvious compelling reason to home in on any specific number from a balance perspective), I may just end up kicking Titan rank to 600 simply because Shoogie suggested it and his reasoning looks sane.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • AlexDougherty
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    The first part is always useful, and not just for posting in threads, writing calmly and clear is always better than writing angrily.
    People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
    Wizard's first rule
    Passion rules reason
    Wizard's third rule
    Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
    Wizard's fifth rule
    Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
    Wizard's tenth rule
  • Knottypine
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Anyone who has seen me posting on the forums often has probably noticed I quite often link to or talk about the MMO EVE Online and the company which develops it CCP Games.
    The reason for this is because for all their flaws (they do have many) that company is at the very top in regards to play and developer/company communication.

    Many devs could learn a lot from CCP. I will frequently say how hostile the EVE community can be, but when you meet a group of people to play with, it's the most incredible experience in any MMO.

    When it comes to communication from CCP, there is a reason why they have been successful for over 10 years.
  • WhimsyDragon
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    If you spent years creating something that is not only the product of your passions, but also the livelihood of yourself and your family, how would you want the public to react to the kinks and quirks upon launch? No, you wouldn't expect those issues to be brushed off... but surely it would be more motivating to hear level-headed folks offer genuine feedback and advice than to be subjected to hostile ranting and raving.

    If you want a game developer to listen, treat them with respect and know that they probably do, in fact, care very much about the product they've been working on as well as the player base that supports it. Also keep in mind that sometimes even 'easy' fixes are not such, especially when there's a mountain of 'easy' fixes in the queue and other internal factors that we may never understand. Being a bully and creating a toxic environment only makes matters worse for everyone.
  • Maverick827
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    Normally that would be good advice, but ZOS only responds to account related issues.

    Can't log in? I'm sure a staff member will respond to your post saying they've escalated your problem to the proper team.

    Want to discuss anything else? Gear decay? Inventory space? Class balance? End-game activities? The VR grind? Respec costs? Tough luck.
  • Turelus
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    Normally that would be good advice, but ZOS only responds to account related issues.

    Can't log in? I'm sure a staff member will respond to your post saying they've escalated your problem to the proper team.

    Want to discuss anything else? Gear decay? Inventory space? Class balance? End-game activities? The VR grind? Respec costs? Tough luck.

    From a developer side I would fully agree, it's sad to see those who are making the content and changes are not on the forums working with us or posting asking for more feedback on what they're doing.
    I hope once Craglorn comes out and we start moving forward the developers start posting up discussions asking for feedback. I would be upset if this becomes another game where the developers spend their time making content and telling us what we want in the game.

    That being said many times I have seen the customer service/forums mods post stating they have passed a thread on to the relevant development team to look over. The sad part is those threads are also full of what the CCP developer was talking about being bad feedback, players who believe their claim correct because they want it their way but have evidence to back up why it's a change which is beneficial to the game.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Mister_Crowley
    A personal favorite of mine is to attach a snapshot of a cute puppy to your post and simply say: "Give me what I want or Lucky gets it."
  • Turelus
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    From my time in Iceland at fanfest I found getting them drunk is also a great way to spew ideas at them! :P
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Dita
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    Turelus wrote: »
    How to Make a Developer Listen to You.

    By unsubscribing.
    "Begun the Bot Wars has"
  • Corithna
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    Turelus wrote: »
    From my time in Iceland at fanfest I found getting them drunk is also a great way to spew ideas at them! :P

    If, and only if, they don't end up spewing first.
    For all the millions of pages of codified law we have enacted in this nation alone, all of it, every word, sentence, paragraph and nuance, is steeped in the singular idea of this:

    "Be good to one another."
  • Turelus
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    It's been interesting reading more of the threads on these forums which claim failure, demand change and threaten developers with no real thought going into what they're asking.

    For those reading this if you want to take one thing away take this: You personal want in the game, no matter how many people back you up doesn't make it correct for the game, take some time to think about it, add some data, look at both sides and present your case, just because hundreds of people scream something needs to be nerfed, removed, or added doesn't make that entirely true for the games vision or concept.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Turelus
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    I kind of feel this might need to be on the front page for a while today. :P
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Woolenthreads
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    This is the time I regret not being able to "favourite" a Thread, other than by leaving a comment.
    Oooh look, lot's of Butterflies! Wait! Butterflies? Get out of here Sheo, stop bugging me!

    Having issues with Provisioning Writs? A list of problem Writs and people willing to help in game can be found in this Thread
  • Hakhan
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    In resume, don't act like a b*tch. :D:D:D
  • Turelus
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    This is the time I regret not being able to "favourite" a Thread, other than by leaving a comment.
    Click the little star at the top of the tread to bookmark it.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Strontium
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    Someone link this to a Bethesda dev... They appear to only respond to the ranting, raving whiners.
    Edited by Strontium on 1 September 2014 12:24
  • Turelus
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    Strontium wrote: »
    Someone link this to a Bethesda dev... They appear to only respond to the ranting, raving whiners.

    CCP Games developers as clueless as they can be sometimes have the best community contact of any MMO I have played. The fact they will engage with their fans on twitter and debate and discuss mechanics or just share kitten pictures is really something other MMO companies could learn from.

    I understand that with more mainstream games like ESO the communities are full of more idiots who will flame, insult and harass the staff, but those people can be banned for blocked from forums/social media.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • ChillingSpree
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    I love EVE Online. The game is incredibly deep, beautiful, and complex. The combat can be extremely intense and fast-paced. The spreadsheet characteristics can be very engaging, if you manage to get into it. I can't knock EVE Online, but I don't play it anymore because I wanted to play a more RPG style MMO, like ESO. The issue with ESO, however, that EVE doesn't have, is that ZOS never seems to listen to their community. I've sent in many suggestions and complaints and bug reports, and have received mostly generic responses from customer service reps who don't have the power to change anything. It seems like they just forward my emails to a throwaway email address. Nothing has been done about anything I've suggested, even despite the fact that a lot of them are easy fixes. I know they're easy fixes because I'm a software architect myself. If the things I've suggested are actually difficult to fix, then the game was built completely wrong.

    Anyway, your suggestions are priceless. ZOS really needs to start listening to their community. Just yesterday a poll on this forum showed that the vast majority of players are not excited for the next update, because it includes nothing they're interested about, it will bring more bugs with it, and they haven't even fixed existing problems yet. I'm not excited about it because it means they're devoting manpower to plugging in new content for a game which already has massively imbalanced combat. Why are they making new dungeons, trials, and arenas, when the combat is already messed up? Heavy armor, medium armor, non-staff weapons, and stamina in general are already nearly useless. There's virtually no way to compete in endgame material unless you're wearing a bathrobe and waving around a broomstick. So they're just gonna keep adding more content where the trailers show people wearing heavy and medium armor as frequently as they wear light armor? They're gonna keep pretending that this game is balanced, and keep feeding us more examples that it's IMbalanced? I don't want to play in a new dungeon, trial, or arena. Why? Because I will have to do it wearing light armor. I don't want to play any new stuff until ZOS fixes the combat balancing, because as of right now the lore and general universe is totally messed up. Tanks are wearing light armor... some aren't even using shields. The immersion is completely broken when heavy armor is useless. The real Tamriel includes adventurers wearing all types of armor. Mathematically speaking there should be less light armor than the other two combined, yet there is MORE than the other two combined. Isn't this a problem to ZOS? Because based on their priorities, it doesn't seem to be.

    Fix the fact that heavy armor wearers are at such a huge advantage, even at TANKING, and I will be excited about the next update. If that's part of the next update, I will personally blow every developer on the team. And I'll come to headquarters to personally deliver one of those giant cardboard checks that everyone seemed to be writing in the 90s.
  • Woolenthreads
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    Turelus wrote: »
    This is the time I regret not being able to "favourite" a Thread, other than by leaving a comment.
    Click the little star at the top of the tread to bookmark it.

    Thank You.
    Oooh look, lot's of Butterflies! Wait! Butterflies? Get out of here Sheo, stop bugging me!

    Having issues with Provisioning Writs? A list of problem Writs and people willing to help in game can be found in this Thread
  • Turelus
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    I think in the light of yesterdays PTS update this thread is once again relevant.

    Make constructive feedback, not rage/quit/crying threads please, if you want something changed write a post developers want to read.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Xendyn
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    This...is a worthy Necro. Glad I saw it in your sig.
    I think the forum could use a read again.
    Lag is ruinin' my 'mershun!
    A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.
    There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance - Socrates
    Member of the Old Guard, keepers of the game's history

    PC/NA
  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    Commenting to refer to this later.
  • Turelus
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    Thanks for the reading/bumping.

    Sadly I think the way the ESO forums works this won't reappear in the recent posts now as it's so old.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Soris
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    There should be a dev post in this thread to make it worthy.

    sry couldn't resist :p
    Welkynd [Templar/AD/EU]
  • Woolenthreads
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    Commenting to refer to this later.

    Up next to the title is a blank little star. Click on it to favourite this thread and you will get notifications whenever someone comments.
    Oooh look, lot's of Butterflies! Wait! Butterflies? Get out of here Sheo, stop bugging me!

    Having issues with Provisioning Writs? A list of problem Writs and people willing to help in game can be found in this Thread
  • Pepper8Jack
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    Seriously amazing post, should be required reading for the forums.
  • gw2only1b14_ESO
    gw2only1b14_ESO
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Thanks for the reading/bumping.

    Sadly I think the way the ESO forums works this won't reappear in the recent posts now as it's so old.

    Nope unless it gets the occasional comment I mean bump
  • Gidorick
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    This doesn't work on the ESO forums. Maybe over on the ESO reddit...
    What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
    That's right... Horse.
    Click HERE to discuss.

    Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!
  • SymbioteKing26
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    This is a beautiful thread. Bless OP.
    EP/ Breton Nightblade Healer. Is fond of cheese. And scamps.
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